Socionic musicology ?

[machintruc]

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=75:

typing music exists, but it seems to resemble more "differential psychology" than typing...

it would be easy to know if a music sounds or for example... it would be cool to type music to make correlations to styles...

[Jonathan]

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=75:

typing music exists, but it seems to resemble more "differential psychology" than typing...

it would be easy to know if a music sounds or for example... it would be cool to type music to make correlations to styles...

Typing music is an extremely constructive and to a large extent unexplored area in Socionics. I wouldn't put much stock in adjective-based typing. In the film industry and pop music industry, adjectives may be used to try to make sense of different styles. Jung-based typology is beyond that. For example, can you imagine a person who is only one emotion? Probably not very common; most people have the full range of emotions, but their personality is still structured differently.

I would suggest that to get a handle on Socionic typing of music, focus on classical composers (where one can have a full image of the personality), and get a clear sense of composers' personalities based on historical typing methods, such as the ones Rick describes on his site. The patterns of types in music are very clear, just as there are linguistic patterns. However, biographical considerations may help avoid false theories based on purely subjective assessment.

If you look further down in "What's My Type," you'll see that there's a dispute between Socionists over Shostakovich's type.

Other composers who have been typed by experienced Socionists:

Chopin: IEI (Filatova, Lytov, etc.) [Edit..I did a typo and wrote EIE before]
Wagner: SLE (Lytov....others: ?)
Beethoven ILI (Filatova; Rick thought maybe EIE based on forum discussion; others thought EII. I am coming to believe that ILI is actually correct)
Prokofief ILE (Filatova)
[Edit: I forgot to include...] W. A. Mozart IEE (Filatova)

Let me know if you have insights in this area, or if you have seen other official typings by Socionists (not MBTI-based, and not casual guesses).

[Logos]

But if you actually look up an artist, it will actually give you the series of associated adjectives.

For those who need examples: The Beatles

Moods
* Exciting
* Fun
* Bright
* Lively
* Happy
* Sentimental
* Wistful
* Searching
* Sweet
* Yearning
* Lush
* Literate
* Joyous
* Humorous
* Sophisticated
* Swaggering
* Melancholy
* Quirky
* Rollicking
* Ambitious
* Wry

[Jonathan]

But if you actually look up an artist, it will actually give you the series of associated adjectives.

It's just a marketing gimmick. It's clever; it's nice if you can put in the adjectives you want and have it suggest what groups you'd probably like, in ranked order. But you can't type someone based on that.

Anyhow, popular music is a corporate endeavor; it doesn't reflect any one person's type directly, because there are so many people involved in the composition, and many of the musical decisions are based on market research, target audience, what has been selling recently, and things like that.

I'm not saying there isn't good popular music, or that there aren't talented people creating it....just that it probably doesn't lend itself to studying mental patterns as much as classical.

[Park]

Chopin: EIE (Filatova, Lytov, etc.)

Oh shit! The BESTest classical composer EVER ... is my conflicting ?!?!
Damn! Beta NFs rule! :wink:

[Jonathan]

Chopin: EIE (Filatova, Lytov, etc.)

Oh shit! The BESTest classical composer EVER ... is my conflicting ?!?!
Damn! Beta NFs rule! :wink:

Sorry, it was a typo. IEI...your super ego type.

[Rick]

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=75:

typing music exists, but it seems to resemble more "differential psychology" than typing...

it would be easy to know if a music sounds or for example... it would be cool to type music to make correlations to styles...

Typing music is an extremely constructive and to a large extent unexplored area in Socionics. I wouldn't put much stock in adjective-based typing. In the film industry and pop music industry, adjectives may be used to try to make sense of different styles. Jung-based typology is beyond that. For example, can you imagine a person who is only one emotion? Probably not very common; most people have the full range of emotions, but their personality is still structured differently.

I would suggest that to get a handle on Socionic typing of music, focus on classical composers (where one can have a full image of the personality), and get a clear sense of composers' personalities based on historical typing methods, such as the ones Rick describes on his site. The patterns of types in music are very clear, just as there are linguistic patterns. However, biographical considerations may help avoid false theories based on purely subjective assessment....

Let me know if you have insights in this area, or if you have seen other official typings by Socionists (not MBTI-based, and not casual guesses).

I'm also very interested in this, but the classical composers seem rather distant to me. I don't quite understand the context of their music -- what was popular at the time, and where their music memes are coming from. But I am getting more and more insight from learning about and typing contemporary solo guitarists. Not only do I understand better what their music is about, but I can watch them perform and see their interviews. The performances are really important for discovering where the "true emphasis" of their artistry lies. Maybe after I get guitarists of each type it will all somehow be transferable to other musical instruments and genres.

But yes, analyzing art in general from a socionics standpoint is a very fascinating field.

[Park]

But I am getting more and more insight from learning about and typing contemporary solo guitarists. Not only do I understand better what their music is about, but I can watch them perform and see their interviews. The performances are really important for discovering where the "true emphasis" of their artistry lies. Maybe after I get guitarists of each type it will all somehow be transferable to other musical instruments and genres.

Type this!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN_D64AJR3E[/youtube]


Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIUcrpgXATw

Dreamin, feat. Earl Klugh

[machintruc]

Type this!

elevator music. IEI ?

[Rick]

Type this!

elevator music. IEI ?

It is reminiscent of Pat Metheny, who is IEI. The music is very emotionally positive without being very physically engaging. Is this his own music, though? Are there any interviews of Benson?

I've noticed that physically engaging music makes more use of fifths and "power chords" (in rock music, the base note together with its fifth and octave). The more seventh chords you use and the more you take out the fifths, the less "vital" the music becomes. (I'm thinking of chords like the one with the notes C-E-B-D.) Maybe this is because the smaller or more unusual intervals take longer to digest and so the chords have to be given more space and emphasis. You can't play them with distortion on an electric guitar without it turning into mush.

[Park]

It is reminiscent of Pat Metheny, who is IEI. The music is very emotionally positive without being very physically engaging. Is this his own music, though? Are there any interviews of Benson?

Benson is very different from Metheny in his playing and his musical style in general. The samples I provided are not his original compositions but are a good example of his guitar playing style. Compared to Metheny I find him much more enjoyable to listen. His playing is more concrete, he is technically fast and precise, with more clarity in his tone and a very sweet and catchy sound. I do find his music emotionally positive in general and I guess I could call it "romantic" but I don't think that IEI is a type I would consider him to be. Some Sensory type would probably make more sense. I was thinking maybe ESE, but I don't know.

Interviews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gCoq2h4sBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUM-j1MFdQc
http://www.undercover.com.au/idol/georgebenson.html
http://www.smoothjazznow.com/intervi...rge_benson.htm

[Rick]

It is reminiscent of Pat Metheny, who is IEI. The music is very emotionally positive without being very physically engaging. Is this his own music, though? Are there any interviews of Benson?

Benson is very different from Metheny in his playing and his musical style in general. The samples I provided are not his original compositions but are a good example of his guitar playing style. Compared to Metheny I find him much more enjoyable to listen. His playing is more concrete, he is technically fast and precise, with more clarity in his tone and a very sweet and catchy sound. I do find his music emotionally positive in general and I guess I could call it "romantic" but I don't think that IEI is a type I would consider him to be. Some Sensory type would probably make more sense. I was thinking maybe ESE, but I don't know.

Interviews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gCoq2h4sBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUM-j1MFdQc
http://www.undercover.com.au/idol/georgebenson.html
http://www.smoothjazznow.com/intervi...rge_benson.htm

Thanks, I'll look at those interviews. Compared to Metheny his appearance is much more sensing. ESE or SEE would make the most sense. How much of a composer is he? Or is he a Horowitz-type interpreter of others' compositions? The black American culture is definitely richer in than white culture. Maybe that's why so much modern music comes from them...

[drd252]

Type my music, under Proton.

[Rick]

(sorry for hijacking your thread, Jonathan)

OK, I think ESE it is. He has the trademark voice modulations and "I just love it all" attitude. The functional preference seems to be there as well.

The comparison to Pat Metheny only stands for the first compositions you linked to, and only to a certain sub-class of music that Metheny plays. Metheny's primary style is dreamy and far-out, and I haven't gotten that mood from any of Benson's playing anywhere (my own perception is that it is all the same feel-good mood). Also, he keeps a clear, steady beat in his music instead of letting the percussion drop out now and then and slowing and speeding up the rhythm, which seems to be a trait of most irrational players/composers.

[olduser]

I've noticed that physically engaging music makes more use of fifths and "power chords" (in rock music, the base note together with its fifth and octave). The more seventh chords you use and the more you take out the fifths, the less "vital" the music becomes. (I'm thinking of chords like the one with the notes C-E-B-D.) Maybe this is because the smaller or more unusual intervals take longer to digest and so the chords have to be given more space and emphasis. You can't play them with distortion on an electric guitar without it turning into mush.

very insightful. tell us more about socionics.

[Creepy-bg]

I've noticed that physically engaging music makes more use of fifths and "power chords" (in rock music, the base note together with its fifth and octave). The more seventh chords you use and the more you take out the fifths, the less "vital" the music becomes. (I'm thinking of chords like the one with the notes C-E-B-D.) Maybe this is because the smaller or more unusual intervals take longer to digest and so the chords have to be given more space and emphasis. You can't play them with distortion on an electric guitar without it turning into mush.

very insightful. tell us more about socionics.

[Rick]

Type my music, under Proton.

Intuitive! Probably rather than , but I'm not completely sure.

The melodic lines and chord changes are very "abstract" -- they don't take advantage of typical combinations and intervals that are naturally pleasing to the ear. They try to be as unusual and foreign as possible. Tons of diminished fifths in the melodies and half-tone chord changes (sorry, my music vocab is very rusty, but I know exactly what I'm trying to say!

I think that to type music you really have to understand the genre you're dealing with. Otherwise you might type all classical music as rational, all pop as , etc. I might be missing another emphasis in this music that is probably or .

[Rick]

(I only just now noticed your type in your signature, drd252. ILI definitely makes sense from the music.)

[Park]

How much of a composer is he? Or is he a Horowitz-type interpreter of others' compositions?

Well he is mainly an interpreter but he also has a few great compositions of his own.

The black American culture is definitely richer in than white culture. Maybe that's why so much modern music comes from them...

That's a very interesting observation. The music I enjoy the most (starting from genres : Jazz, Funk, RnB, HipHop) comes from them.

[Park]

OK, I think ESE it is. He has the trademark voice modulations and "I just love it all" attitude. The functional preference seems to be there as well.

I 'm very glad to hear that from you. Glad you share my opinion.
For some reason, I find the way he talks in his interviews a bit repulsive sometimes. I guess I can subscribe that to the apparent 'in your face' attitude, which together with his emotionally expressive and 'down to earth' style of playing and singing gave me a hunch for ESE.

Metheny's primary style is dreamy and far-out, and I haven't gotten that mood from any of Benson's playing anywhere (my own perception is that it is all the same feel-good mood). Also, he keeps a clear, steady beat in his music instead of letting the percussion drop out now and then and slowing and speeding up the rhythm, which seems to be a trait of most irrational players/composers.

I totally agree.


ps. Here's a tune from one of my favorite albums ( That's Right ) :
George Benson - Marvin Said

[machintruc]

but why ?

[Rick]

but why ?

Rejoicing, feeling good, praising the good things in life.

[machintruc]

but why ?

Rejoicing, feeling good, praising the good things in life.

that's +, but not -

- music is different. european pop music have examples for illustrating that. when I was younger I liked germano-scandinavian pop and derived, such as In Strict Confidence or L'Ame Immortelle, great examples for -.

[Rick]

but why ?

Rejoicing, feeling good, praising the good things in life.

that's +, but not -

- music is different. european pop music have examples for illustrating that. when I was younger I liked germano-scandinavian pop and derived, such as In Strict Confidence or L'Ame Immortelle, great examples for -.

True. Or, blocked with .

[drd252]

Type my music, under Proton.

Intuitive! Probably rather than , but I'm not completely sure.

The melodic lines and chord changes are very "abstract" -- they don't take advantage of typical combinations and intervals that are naturally pleasing to the ear. They try to be as unusual and foreign as possible. Tons of diminished fifths in the melodies and half-tone chord changes (sorry, my music vocab is very rusty, but I know exactly what I'm trying to say!

I think that to type music you really have to understand the genre you're dealing with. Otherwise you might type all classical music as rational, all pop as , etc. I might be missing another emphasis in this music that is probably or .

Lol, thanks. Your vocab is much better than mine, I'm 100% self-taught and know virtually nothing about how to make music, besides going with what sounds good :wink:

[Rick]

Where did Bionicgoat's post go?? I was going to answer that...

[Creepy-bg]

lol sorry...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL_Ncv5uxQk[/youtube]

my guess was loads of (in the lyrics at least)... with a totally beautifull moment at 1:22 when the little girl gives the old man on the bike some koolaid

[machintruc]

edited.

[Rick]

Yeah, good example of + . As for REM, I've always assumed they were Delta or Alpha. There's an emphasis on creating simple, memorable melodies and harmonies that I might associate with . Their lead singer lacks some vitality compared to most other bands, but his voice is endearing (not to me, but to many people). They don't do any flashy solos, and they seem down-to-earth. Any ideas on the types?

[Rick]

my guess was loads of (in the lyrics at least)... with a totally beautifull moment at 1:22 when the little girl gives the old man on the bike some koolaid

somehow optimistic... wasn't that more + blocked with - ?

that is more - blocked with + IMO (expressive, light, but material)

I think you're mixing up the + and - signs.
ESE is a positivist, SEI negativist, so that's + and -, and EIE is negativist and IEI positivist, so - and +

I think it's emphasized here, not , since it's about "happiness in the here and now" (let's dance and have fun together), and not "why is there no peace in the world" as a social problem or idealistic sentiment.

[machintruc]

edited. (I'm pretty nervous today, sorry)

[Creepy-bg]

My video makes me feel bouncy and happy. Machintruc's made me uneasy and kind of creaped out. I don't know if that really says anything though... his is what I would have thought would be and

type REM... well I'm not very good at all this so I'll save you all my probably wrong typings

[Rick]

+/- is not positivist/negativist, but process/result ; you said, blocked with is +-

but ESF is positivist and ISF negativist

so what's the difference between + and - ?

Maybe I'm mixed up. I'm used to seeing + and - together, not - and +.

I think about it a bit more simply. In Alpha Quadra, is blocked with , which means emotional expression is tied to sensory experiences, whereas in Beta it is tied to immaterial things whose meaning you have to struggle to figure out, much like a poetry reading where the poet is being terribly dramatic or solemn, and the poem is about her own troubled soul, contradictions in the world, or unrequited love...

[Rick]

edited. (I'm pretty nervous today, sorry)

Watch some more of Bionicgoat's clips to help relax

[machintruc]

oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=4519

[Rick]

oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=4519

Strange. I don't get the signs being used in that article of Gulenko's.

[Creepy-bg]

try this one (if you're not bored of this yet :wink: )
this should give you some better quality music and guitar playing to try to analyse (sorry it's a bit long... but it's my favorite band damnit!)

Grateful Dead - Woman are Smarter
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUsjR4FSgSQ[/youtube]

[Exodus]

try this one (if you're not bored of this yet :wink: )
this should give you some better quality music and guitar playing to try to analyse (sorry it's a bit long... but it's my favorite band damnit!)

Grateful Dead - Woman are Smarter

Delta ST? Lots of Si, at any rate.

[Creepy-bg]

I've always felt the Dead were a Delta band so that fits in my book.