Shyness is actually related to introversion
Shyness is related to introversion, but that doesn't mean introverts are shy. How ? I'll explain that.
An introvert parent can be aggressive, and complain that his child is taking initiatives. A child can actually FEAR to be initiating, and this fear can be increased by extroversion (because lack of initiative goes against his cognitive preferences) ; statistically, shy persons are actually extroverts (sic). My father is an aggressive and pushy ISFj. As a child, when he told me off, I felt shy.
ridiculous.
Why ? It seems logical... An aggressive extrovert leader can complain of lack of initiative, as an aggressive introvert leader can complain of initiative redundancy...Originally Posted by niffweed17
I'm an introvert and I'm shy for whatever that proves.
All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster
this is too insane to even bother with.Why ? It seems logical... An aggressive extrovert leader can complain of lack of initiative, as an aggressive introvert leader can complain of initiative redundancy...
I don't think shyness is related to introversion. Level of activity could be? fwiw, I'm rather shy, believe it or not.
I didn't say that introvert individuals were shy ; I said an introvert could cause shyness in other individuals.
Oh. Well, that sorta depends on the people.
I second that.
INFp-Ni
I'm a closet extrovert.
What you're saying or noting, or whatever, directly goes against the idea of introversion and extraversion in socionics.
The idea of the difference is that introverts would encourage others to take the initiative, while an extravert will try to take the initiative himself.
Better examples: (Taken from Rick's Blog[bottom])
Introtims:
Introtims live with the sensation that there are always people who want to talk to them, get to know them, or do something with them. Their life philosophy is very often built around how to respond to these people.
Extratims:
Extratims live with the sensation that it is their job in life to put forth an effort to establish contact and interaction with people.Their life philosophy is very often built around how best to do this.
http://socionist.blogspot.com/2007/0...verts-and.html
Introverts forcing others to not take the initiative directly goes against the point of being an introvert (I think I'll call them introtims from now on.)
Damn. 7w6? ISTP 7s seem to come out everywhere in this period of my life.
Anyway, I'm E and some people think I am shy. This just means I don't like them and so I see no reason for talking to them.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
There is a myriad of factors involved in determining shyness.
For one thing, socially closed functions will make a person more 'shy' than socially open ones.
On the other hand, the same can be said of internal functions as compared to external ones.
This in mind, the most 'shy' function has to be intuition; thinking and feeling are moderate on this account, while sensation is without a doubt the least 'shy' of functions.
So if we add I/E to the mix, we can place all of the eight functions on a scale denoting their 'confidence' factor:
(using object/field instead of extroversion/introversion here to avoid confusion with internal/external)
socially open, external, object; 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
socially closed, internal, object; 0 + 0 + 1 = 1
socially closed, external, field; 0 + 1 + 0 = 1
socially open, internal, field; 1 + 0 + 0 = 1
socially closed, external, object; 0 + 1 + 1 = 2
socially open, external, field; 1 + 1 + 0 = 2
socially closed, internal, field; 0 + 0 + 0 = 0
Top: least shy, bottom: most shy
[
[
[
[
The assumption here is that each of the three dichotomies contribute equally to how 'confident' an impression a function makes.
Of the backbone dichotomies introversion/extroversion seems to be the only one that makes a difference, though J/P and static/dynamic will have a profound effect on which situations a person is shy or confident in... (personally I'm very shy whereever the dynamic element is dominant.)
This is true for healthy introverts I think ; they value initiative, like me.
you're confusing social closeness with shyness...
Then perhaps you should give us a delineation of what is meant by those two terms, considering that, in their normal use, they do not come with such a thing.
While you may disagree with my analysis, I am not confused. I am working out facts from established knowledge.
I'm an introvert (an INTp introvert? Gasp) and shyness for me depends purely on the people. Amongst people I know well and get on well with, I could very easily be mistaken for an extrovert as I tend to be very open and seemingly confident (I'm the sort of person who acts self-confident to hide the lack of it). I tend to be a lot more reserved around people I don't know too well, and nothing scares me more than being in a big crowd of strangers (OK, there probably are things that scare me more, but you get the picture). So basically, I'm shy by default but appear more confident in the company of friends.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
Fe is not more shy than Te. That's ridiculous.There is a myriad of factors involved in determining shyness.
For one thing, socially closed functions will make a person more 'shy' than socially open ones.
On the other hand, the same can be said of internal functions as compared to external ones.
This in mind, the most 'shy' function has to be intuition; thinking and feeling are moderate on this account, while sensation is without a doubt the least 'shy' of functions.
So if we add I/E to the mix, we can place all of the eight functions on a scale denoting their 'confidence' factor:
(using object/field instead of extroversion/introversion here to avoid confusion with internal/external)
least shy ---> most shy
[[
The assumption here is that each of the three dichotomies contribute equally to how 'confident' an impression a function makes.
Of the backbone dichotomies introversion/extroversion seems to be the only one that makes a difference, though J/P and static/dynamic will have a profound effect on which situations a person is shy or confident in... (personally I'm very shy whereever the dynamic element is dominant.)
What in gods name is that chart about?
I'm shyer around people I know. Around strangers, I have no trouble being extremely extroverted. Strange.
Are you sure you're really an introvert ? Introverts are generally shyer with strangers...
Hmm. The chart is not supposed to say that. You seem to have misread. I'll try to make the arrangement easier to understand.Fe is not more shy than Te. That's ridiculous.
Hm, I guess I did.
you put that very well! it reminds me of something my really awesome intp n-subtype friend once told me!
Aha!
That actually makes a lot of sense and explains some things I have observed.
Thanks!
I also have had a school supervisor who was ISFj ; ISFj means
I often wonder this. I get far too annoyed with others, though. You'll have to excuse me, I'm not an expert on these theories on what makes an extrovert and extrovert, an introvert and introvert and so on.Are you sure you're really an introvert ? Introverts are generally shyer with strangers...
Do tell! I confuse myself.Aha!
That actually makes a lot of sense and explains some things I have observed.
Thanks!
You do sound like ISTJ.
Ne PoLR is not the easiest thing to notice in oneself.
"Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
martin_g_karlsson
I couldn't help but laugh at this.(using object/field instead of extroversion/introversion here to avoid confusion with internal/external)
Top: least shy, bottom: most shy
[
[
[
[
This is because you don't really care about what "external" people thinks about you. You're not into people anyway.
But when it comes to close people, when the psychological distance decreases, you start to become more self concious, because the opinion of those persons starts to matter.
Fe PoLR types (ISTp and INTp), once they fall in love for someone, it's almost unconditional. That's why they are so "shielded": they must make sure they have choosen a highly ethical person who doesn't abuse the power.
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
What Mikemex said is one way of putting it.Do tell! I confuse myself.Aha!
That actually makes a lot of sense and explains some things I have observed.
Thanks!
Another way, in Socionics-speak, is that you are a Si IP, that is a Si-subtype ISTp. So you shift back and forth "around" Si to become more like an ISFp or ISTp.
At Si you are close to the point of "neutrality" between construct-creating and emotion-creating. You shift to emotion-creating when you don't really feel part of the group, you move into Fe area, and Democracy.
Among people you feel part of a group in - the Delta version of Aristocracy - you move back into Te, and into construct-creating mode.
Intense love and Duality
I call it "head over heals --> intensity unknown to most others" and it lasts until the feeling wears off, depending on who it is. With me I can say I had it on more than one occasion where it didn't last long and uglyness showed itself blatantly, chasing me away.This is fairly true, at least for me.
My last time though was when I met my Dual (SEE, ENFp), didn't know about socionics/duality back then, but it was "nothing" at first, he seemed to be just a guy that meant nothing, not good or bad and I had no interest, but felt comfy around him. I soonly began to consider "more" though, being a girl who wanted to get married and have a family. So within three weeks I'd decided I could marry him, and as soon as that decision came to me, I started that long hard fall into love which (looking back) was nearly insanity.
It lasted over a year, and has recently come back in partiality since learning about 'duality' and me wanting to make things better for us, and he actually listening and actually take my nonsensical infatuation with socionics to heart.
We are working on our 15th Anniversary, I'm 40 and pregnant. Thanks to this "head over heals" thing that comes blindly when a "connection" is made.
I see into the future and know that this "head over heals" thing can be attained through trying. It can happen "again" with someone you live with and have had a dull existence with for too long, injecting romance and love back into it all before the children are all grown and gone ... the other possibility is misery and empty nest horridness, living so dully with your mate as you age ... ugh. Love is a decision ... and if a connection can be made in the "love" area deeply (for me, INTp it means a deep intellectual connection first) ... it does work out between the two, it's a breathless attraction.
I don't see it as "shyness" per se, from my personal point of view I think that OTHERS see it as that, but inside my head it's reservedness, holding back, not wanting to show my interior self unless I feel that I am safe and WANT to be unreserved. (it's a natural thing, but I've studied it for years and see it more clearly as the years go by.)
I also see this as reservedness, with me I am like that mostly with strangers, but sometimes I'm fairly extroverted with complete strangers when I meet them, and it's funny to watch from 'behind myself,' it's a natural thing that I don't "control" as to when I am open to new people and when I have no desire to interact with new people.
I also do find, like in church settings, sometimes people I know, but not "real well," will come up to me and expect me to initiate conversation, and that is so annoying to me. I have no chit-chat available-ness for them. When someone I know the same sort of way comes to me and asks me something that I have information to share about, I can talk a mile a minute, but those people generally don't seek me out often. It's the other "reserved introverts" that come up and expect me to carry a conversation, which means that I have to force myself to make some off the wall sort of comment about something that I know they'll raise their eyebrows about, in order to have an excuse for something more "intellectual" to be talked about, but I find this is usually with other women and they just 'don't get me' and wander away eventually (phew!)
There have been very extroverted people there that I am comfy with and have less problem opening up to, but they are not women, and so I would end up being the one female in a group of males discussing some topic.
I don't have as many interactions with people as I used to, the last 10 years I've been a stay-at-home mother and so I've slipped comfortably into being very reserved and not going much of anywhere, and usually with my dual-hubby if I do go anywhere.
When I was younger, at home, I was pressured to sing in front of my immediate family, and other close relatives when they were around and I hated it and couldn't do it, it was SO embarrassing ... but I had no problem getting onto a platform in front of strangers and singing, whether it be 50 people or 2,000 or more. My family has been very mean to me about it, making me feel more horrible. But that is behind me now, my parents are both gone, and my siblings are spread around the USA and there are no occassions like that to make me so bad in their eyes anymore.
I also don't use the phone much and rarely even email people. I know that when I get a phone call I freak out, and can barely think or breathe, and it's been so annoying to me that I only answer the phone if it's my hubby now for the past few years. I can make a decision to call someone sometimes, but if it's a pressured call, I default into "can't" and if it's something I really want to say "I can" but lately I have nothing to say to anyone else. FWIW.
I rely on my hubby for "friends" nowadays, and he hasn't any to share with me the past few years since he's started to work out of the house. He's busy and gets worn out interacting with the world on the phone or traveling around locally, or out of town. So that is bad for me. My input into others is dependent on him, and I guess I can say I know the greeters at Costco better than anyone.
All my life I had one good friend at a time, except for awhile had two best friends, but they were separate best friends, and that was wearisome to teen-ager me. I had a life North of me with one, and local with the other. It didn't last, I lost the North one eventually.
That local friend went to college and I felt alone, and went to the same college the next year and found that she wasn't my "bestest" friend anymore, had roommate that was her best friend now. Not soon after arriving there, her roommate and I became bestest friends and we stayed that until I found my hubby-to-be, and then she moved away, and I had one best friend, my hubby.
I had other relationships, but loose associates, mostly (having to do with Work, and such.) Nothing close at all. I have one long distance friend now, and she's busy, busy, busy and we don't communicate much. I have no reason for friends, and find that if someone at church seems "friendly" enough to be a "friend" I back off, it's too intense and tiresome to even consider, I see my weeks becoming frenzied wastes and I can't live with that.
I'll only take friends that aren't going to steal my time on the phone, and wanting to come over or have me go to them. Nobody qualifies for that except for my one long distance friend. I'll only then have "couple friends" with my hubby, if we even come into contact with the right couple around here, which we haven't really. (In order to "care" I have to have some reason to care, and mostly just don't get that feeling with most people I come into contact with.)
This is my "married years with children" time of life, and I know it won't be such forever ... once my young are fleged and safely flying then I can be more open to others, is my guess. FWIW
Gulenko said that being reserved is actually related to Reinin's negativism, not introversion.
EST ENF INT ISF are reserved, and ENT ESF IST INF are social.
This diagram proves more useful than I first thought, as it allows us to study some interesting attributes dividing the spectrum of types.Top: least shy, bottom: most shy
[
[
[
[
Balance between 'confidence factor' of the accepting and creative function:
ESFp, ESTp: [3:1] = unbalanced, confident (resolute, sensor, aggressor)
ISFj, ISTj: [1:3] = unbalanced, confident (resolute, sensor, aggressor)
ESTj, ESFj: [2:2] = balanced, confident (reasonable, sensor, caregiver)
ISTp, ISFp: [2:2] = balanced, confident (reasonable, sensor, caregiver)
ENTj, ENFj: [2:0] = unbalanced, unconfident (resolute, intuitive, victim)
INTp, INFp: [0:2] = unbalanced, unconfident (resolute, intuitive, victim)
ENTp, ENFp: [1:1] = balanced, unconfident (reasonable, intuitive, infantile)
INTj, INFj: [1:1] = balanced, unconfident (reasonable, intuitive, infantile)
- This explains how sensors are more socially confident than intuitives. (admittedly self-evident)
But now for the more interesting conclusions:
- This explains how 'resolutes' subscribe to different social habits than 'reasonables'. There is a clear alternation of dominance; a struggle between forces in which the 'victim' partner strikes at the 'aggressor' with a weaker force than vice versa. The victim offers the aggressor a continual challenge, never being quite helpless.
- This gives a window into interaction between 'agressors' and 'infantiles'; the aggressor has a weapon at disposal capable of blowing the infantile away, which the latter has no measures to retaliate against. His attempts to break free are met with an equal counterforce. The agressor is bound to interpret said attempts as sport. If the aggressor is the supervised one, he finds himself unable to accomodate to the infantile and begins to doubt himself, feeling like a bull in a china store.
- Victim-caregiver interaction; it takes the victim continual effort to keep up at the caregiver's game, ultimately getting tired out and being forced to expose their passive side to which the caregiver directs their oh-so-marvelous Si. Miscommunication ensues.
- In light of these last two conclusions there has to be a marked difference between supervision from sensors over intuitives and supervision from intuitives over sensors.
A punch in the face counts?
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
a punch in the face counts if this could help you to label someone as "aggressive" or "passive-aggressive"
someone who has passive-aggressive disorder (correlates with unhealthy ISFj) could generate shyness around him.
Do people know that they're shy if they get nervous around new people? The first post is talking about fear of taking initiative, which could be related to feelings of nervousness around new people. I guess I'm wondering how we're defining shyness. I'll talk about shyness as being a part of both.
I've had to fight my shyness a lot. I was pretty bad growing up. Now, I'm generally not very shy. I take initiative and am often "leader" in group projects. I only get nervous around new people if I'm really concerned about their opinion of me--if I feel like it's important that they like me for whatever reason. I very rarely get nervous around people I know.
Regarding reservedness, shyness, and initiative:
fwiw:
* I impulsively say hi or chat to people I don't know and will likely never see again. I don't particularly care what they think of me.
* I'm quite nervous around people who I may have continued contact with. This is due to various experiences in which I've spontaneously said or done things which were taken wrong or seemed dumb after it was already said/done. Not wanting to ruin a potential relationship (acquaintances are relationships too), I begin internally questioning the things I've just said or just did, or want to say or want to do, massive self doubt begins creeping in until I reach a point where I just shut down. As I get older, I tend to shut down sooner.
* I've willfully become more self-forced reserved around people who I may have continued contact with. I have learned that there are many people who feel over-whelmed easily and need time to pull their thoughts together. I work hard to give them that time/space to do so. This is easier to do online than offline though, as online allows me to delete or edit what I'm saying, or to hold off before pushing the enter button.
* I jump into Se role when I'm hanging out with friends. As time goes on, I cannot maintain the active positivist role, and revert back to my normal self.....at which time I know that it's time to end the hanging out time until next time I feel I have enough energy to have a go at it again.
* I relax and be more myself when I'm around people who I've been around for years such as some members of my family, my daughter, and richard. (edited to add: and one person from the forum) They get to see the good and bad of me. They also get bombarded with spontaneously given, usually useless to them, information. They also get to see the indecisive me who's always bringing up alternative meanings and alternative things that can be done.
* In terms of initiating conversation, I do that relatively easy, seemingly following the "guidelines" above.
* In terms of initiating actions, when around others, I tend to hope that someone else will initiate. Most often, those I'm around are too slow in initiating actions/decisions, leaving it up to me (the impatient one) to finally have to step in and get things rolling. It seems that over time I have inadvertently trained my NiFe friend and SiFe boyfriend that if they wait/hold back just a little bit longer, they'll be able to just follow along without taking any initiative.
* In terms of initiating actions when I'm alone, it depend on the actions to be taken. Obviously if it's something I want to do, I'll begin easily and quickly. If it's something I don't particularly want to do, I'll hang back and dillydally. If it's something I feel forced to do (whether by someone else's expectations or because of my own "shoulds", I'll dig in my heels and refuse to do it.)
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I'm shy only when people show interest in me, but I don't mean show interest as in give me attention and so on, but when people start getting close. In normal every day situations with strangers, friends and people in general I'm everything but shy and have zero problems in engaging people. I'm also incredibly shy in my mind but when things happen for real that completely disappears. I find this weird cause I have all of these shy expectations and generally construct myself out of potential shy scenarios like engaging people in some situations and so on but if for some reason those things do happen it's like autopilot kicks in and I'm confident, engaging and generally make things happen.
I generally feel most comfortable in an environment where I know people superficially and engage in low level conversation like chit chat, discussion of policies, experiences and so on. This puts me at ease as it's non threatening and non significant to me.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote