Actually I wish it were that simple. But I've seen so many misinterpretations of what the descriptions are really referring to, as well as what "introvert" really means in Socionics, etc, that I am skeptical about that argument.Originally Posted by Phaedrus
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
What the word "introvert" really means in Socionics is irrelevant. If it is not correctly defined in Socionics we should change our socionic definition of it. I must insist that we see introversion as a biological trait. Every introvert is of course one of the introverted socionc types. We cannot exclude the possibility that XoX has misunderstood some things in the type descriptions and/or in how the dimensions are defined, but the fact remains that he consistently describes himself in a way that strongly suggests that he is an INTp. I have still not found any clear evidence that would suggest that he and I are different types. INTp, intuitive subtype remains a strong candidate.Actually I wish it were that simple. But I've seen so many misinterpretations of what the descriptions are really referring to, as well as what "introvert" really means in Socionics, etc, that I am skeptical about that argument.
But what do you think of his posts on "team spirit" in the "Preferred Co-Workers" thread in Any Relations? Do you relate to his views, do you not, or do you find them irrelevant to his type?
I have read skimmed through it, but it is difficult to compare relations with co-workers, whose type is uncertain and who might be working in totally different circumstances. I don't know yet what to say about his views on "team spirit". There is a sense in which I can relate to that, but I'm not sure how to put it into words. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. The whole thing is a little bit to vague, I think, but if I get some "insight", I'll post it.But what do you think of his posts on "team spirit" in the "Preferred Co-Workers" thread in Any Relations? Do you relate to his views, do you not, or do you find them irrelevant to his type?
Yes and that's why I wasn't really addressing that part.
It's not vague to me, I think I do understand what he means as did (in my opinion) cracka and FDG.
Now I have commented in the other thread: http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...10315&start=30
Thanks! I read it and it seems we become more similar each day
So let's narrow it down to ENTp(N), INTp(N), INFp(N). FDG joked about me being ISTj so I want to check that too
I think I will go through those type descriptions and comment them so others can see what I relate to and what not and what it means...let me link them here...
ENTp
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...on+description
INTp
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...on+description
INFp
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...on+description
and last but not least...ISTj
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...on+description
not an ISTj
You struck me most as an ENTp in some recent "preferred coworker" posts. Haven't read this thread yet, however
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
If there is anything to VI, you're not an ISTj from your video.
Explain a bit? You talked about Si-dual seeking there. Where did you see that?
If there is anything to my typing of my friends I'm not ISTj
People who VIed XoX as "definitely not ENFp", please comment.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
I try to tone down the VI thing because it is not very reliable unless you meet the person face to face and also because not everyone have had a chance to see it. I don't know if it only confuses things or if it is helpful.
But I think one of the main reasons for non-ENFp was lack of facial expressions and gestures which ENFps apparently have, lack of certain "charm" or "shine" that ENFps apparently have, the fact that temperament wise I was mostly IP (but with some "restlessness" which could point to EP or perhaps I was just excited about the situation, lol). Generally the perception was IP and T-type. Secondary choice was EP and a T-type. Then later people started to hesitate about the T/F but that happened only after it was discussed in the forum. At the same time the image of IP got stronger but during the VI process EP was also suggested. I think someone threw rational in there too but it was not the common answer. Or something like that. INTp was most popular answer at the time of VI anyways.
Edit: Just adding...the certain ackwardness in movement (I did a lot of that in the video) and unfocused eyes pointed apparently quite clearly to N-type.
Do you think identifying the type of your wife will help things? Maybe I'm just being nosey.
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ESFj(Si) subtype or ESTj(Si) subtype. Other types have been ruled out with 99,9% certainty. I don't think we are duals because there are certain problems which duals shouldn't have but since we have been together for a long time and plan to stay together it can't be one of the bad relations. Actually identifying her as either ESFj or ESTj with great certainty would help as then it would be possible to rule out either INFp (who conflicts with ESTj) or INTp (who conflicts with ESFj).Do you think identifying the type of your wife will help things? Maybe I'm just being nosey
One thing I have might have forgotten to ask, XoX: Are you a "night owl" or a "morning bird"? Your wife is a morning bird, isn't she? And my guess is that you are a night owl.
you think she's a saturn body type and he's a lunar? she looks solar to me
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
what is this about a video?
anyone care to toss a link?
What is this body type thing?you think she's a saturn body type and he's a lunar? she looks solar to me
Yes I'm a night owl of the worst kind (funny concept, what would be a day owl anyways?). I have serious trouble putting up with a sleeping rhythm that is required in many companies and organizations. If I can choose myself I go to bed when I feel tired (somewhere between 3am and 6am usually) and wake up without alarm clock (about 8-10 hours later). If I have to force myself to go to bed 10pm every day I start to feel empty and restless at some point. Very soon I will have to adjust myself to that again though
For some reason I need the night time to reflect about things and learn new things and such. Night is peaceful and I can be alone and concentrate better. Daytime goes past so fast...it is like "now it is morning" then you do stuff and suddenly "wow it is evening". It feels like your life is on fast forward and death is approaching with full speed and you have no time to reflect wtf is really happening around you. At night the time sort of stops and every hour feels like a day. I like nights
My wife is way more a morning bird yes. But she has a habbit of sometimes working late and she can go to bed quite late for a "normal person" even during workdays (like 2am). Also during weekends she has no problems sleeping to 10-11am. I think she would like to be a true morning bird that goes to bed very early and wakes up very early but stress, work and interesting hobbies can keep her awake. So I would say she is a semi-morning bird who perhaps yearns to be a true morning bird. lol.
It is offline. I only keep that kind of stuff online for short period of times. I don't like the idea that they start circulating around the internet. I'm definately not a myspace/youtube person
What affects you more:
whencauses you
discomfort?
Or ifdiscomfort?
Do you feel worse when an
Or do you feel worse when a
If I could give specific examples I would but I'm testing some things out. Hopefully you could make some sort of response, but if not that's fine.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
It is unlikely you are a true INTp, based on your continuing discussions in "co-worker" thread
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I'm not sure if I understand this right. First impression was "wtf". But ok I try to decode this...What affects you more:
when
Or if
Do you feel worse when an
Or do you feel worse when a
I guess that very strongly applied
About the Fi-Si thing. If my ethics are judged hard it has a sort of "stopping" effect on me and I go silent and like "what just happened!?" . Perhaps it even affects me physically but I can't recall any incident right now so hard to say for sure. It can also irritate me mentally if I feel I'm not judged fairly. In those cases I sort of "strike back". If I feel I'm judged fairly I more likely just accept that I behaved badly. It is hard for me to formally apologize or something like that though or show my submission to Fi explicitly but I show it through my behavior (by silently complying with the judgement).
About the others...
Do you feel worse when an
Or do you feel worse when a
Again I don't have much experience of the former so hard to say which is worse. I don't really feel bad when Te situation arises but if Te is used strong handedly for destroying an argument which I think is correct it can make me agitated and ready for "combat" sort of. When Fi situation arises it is likely to stop me on my tracks and leave me in silence (or switch to combat mode if the judgment doesn't feel right).
If I totally misunderstood this then I guess that means something too
There are two kinds of ENFps - there are the goofy funny ENFps. Usually they look slim and flexible. They are fun to talk to, even if they often misunderstand me. Goofy joking. Lots of facial expressions. Might be a correlation to Fi subtype.
And then there are the other kinds of ENFps. They have a strong kind of body, but they don't use it to control their surroundings. One is very tall and has wide shoulders, but his presence is barely noticed energetically. (when an ESTp stands behind you, you just notice it! but you'll barely notice him). They perceive themselves as logical types, but they exhibit strongly
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
You see, an INTp would be more likely to argue back, or think I'm wrong but not bother, or think "maybe he's got a point but I don't really care", or agree, etc etc, but not be so -- sensitive to Te arguments, even if thinking I'm "rude" or "offensive" or whatever. Because they are confident in Te themselves. The same goes for other logical types, by the way. An ENTp would just think I'm wrong or stupid, but not be bothered by it.I guess that very strongly applied
That, and your "team spirit" thingy, rule out INTp for you.
I would certainly NOT rule out ENFp due to the video.
The information certainly points out very strongly on Si EJ for her, and since in my opinion you are indeed as much an INTp as I am a giant piece of blue cheese, she's more likely ESFj.
Some other observations --
I have recently noticed a very major flaw in my "retirement test". It seems that Ni IP types are often also focused on Si-like images. If someone, like cracka, mentions actually repairing things with their own hands etc, then it's definitely Si quadra, but things like " a nice house with a big garden and some paintings" etc etc can also be Ni. So I'm not sure that I'd have so "certain" of ENTp for you in that test now.
So I'd say you are either ENTp or INFp, and either in activity or supervision with your wife. Actually I have little problem seeing m INFp - f ESFj working fairly well.
I had said ENTp>INFp previously, now I go for INFp>ENTp. If you are INFp, consider that a compliment on your Ti
@Phaedrus: if you are INTp and XoX is INFp, it's perfectly possible for you both to "meet" in your common Ni IP-ness, so it's not indicative of your type as such. However, to be totally honest, I am now inclined to see INFp for you.
It would really have been nice if I had had a chance to look at that video. But on the other hand, now my estimations on XoX's type are not influenced by V.I. observations.
Very correct. Good that you spotted that. I was not quite aware of it until you mentinoed it, but something like that has been nagging in the back of my head for some time now.
I agree with that.
Yes, it seems possible for an outside observer to draw that conclusion. Despite the image I might have got from some of my posts on this forum, I really think that I am closer to for example Jonathan and XoX than to niffweed, who I from his posts perceive as closer to Rocky in attitude. That would probably indicate that I am closer to the intuitive subtype of the INTp than the logical, and that I am closer to an INFp than to an ISTp after all. For some further comments on your INFp hypothesis I, take a look at the other thread.
If we have to make comparisons between people -- which other supposed INTps (or even logical types) gets annoyed at even so-called "destructive" Te? I can't think of any other one.
I bet my non-blue-cheseness that XoX isn't an INTp, and probably not an ENTp either.
niffweed17 is closer to my understanding of what a not-very-happy INTp is like. Jonathan, I don't know. He doesn't particularly seem to be a logical type imo, but neither does he obviously seem to be an ethical type.
XoX could be an INFp, but I still think that INTp is the most likely type for him, so I will save a bottle of wine or two just in case.
Yes, I agree. It is almost as if I switch back and forth between being more like niffweed or more like Jonathan depending on my state of mood.
Correct. He is probably slightly more intuitive than I am, and niffweed is slightly less. A rather extreme, but not totally unthinkable possibility, at least seen from an external perspective, is that Jonathan is an INFp and that niffweed is an ISTp. But the most likely is probably that both are INTps.
So you think that XoX's dislike for "destructive Te" is not a problem for his being INTp?
That depends on what he means. Are you sure you have understood what he is referring to? The way he describes it, I think that I would also prefer the thing he calls "constructive Te" over "destructive Te". I'm not sure what exactly he has in mind when he talks about "destructive Te", though. If he means something like "You are wrong because of A, B, C, D ..." then I have probably beein guilty of that myself more than once. I'm not sure I would like to be under such a gunfire myself, but it is preferable to mere personal attacks without substantial arguments. And of course INTp Te-criticism is easier for him to absorb than ENTj criticism if he really is an INTp himself.
The point is not whether he prefers it or not -- it is not remarkable that he'd prefer to get Te information in the form of answer to questions or of information he asked about, or opinions, to "destructive" Te in the sense of "no. what you are saying is totally wrong because of A, B and C and it makes no sense". That is my understanding of what he referred to.
What would be remarkable, in my opinion, is for an INTp to single that out as something that particularly bothers him.
Slowly the amount of data is growing beyond even my comprehension...lol. And I always thought more data means more knowledge.
To Kristiina:
How do you see the ENFp vs INFp thing in me? You are still more in Delta/ENFp side even though strong arguments are consistently made about me belonging to a Fe/Ti Quadra. Of course a Ne-sub ENFp would be somewhere between Alpha and Delta but still should be on Delta side.
Since we're also talking about descriptions, there is this bit from Stratiyevskaya's INFp description:
Which can also be understood as being more confident in interpreting someone's motivations for making a point than in staying in the logical side of things.In order to logically out-argue Esenin, it is not necessary to select separately influential counter-arguments. Esenin conquers in the dispute not by logic, but by ethics. And to out-argue his isklyuchitep'no is difficult. It too knows how well to take away the dispute to the side, "to transfer on the personality" and to the explanation of relations.
If I may:
I think that the whole "team spirit" issue is rather superficial evidence for your valuing Fe. (edit: I see Expat addressed this further in the other thread.) It doesn't rule out ENFp, although it is certainly a good argument against INTp. As for INFp - I can't reconcile Ni and Fe with your writing style, your unending search for your type, etc. All of which is ample evidence for ego Ne & valued (though weak) Te. Everything Kristiina said here, basically:
I read and thought about the thread in the quote... I think the first post is just about as Ne as it gets. It's all about, "this is happening, and this is happening, and this is like that other thing, and they said this, and some behave like that." A Ni person would in stead write a post, "This happened, these are the consequences, this might happen because of it, we need to lead ourselves to a foreseen pleasant future." Where's the conclusion there in that post? All these different stuff about behaviors and opportunities and opinions and about what's going on in the present, but he doesn't describe any process. He's like a static type in midst of a chaotic moment full of dynamic change. Everything's described as just a part of the present, it all leads to somewhere mysterious. Any hint of Ni-revelation there was hidden under a huge mask of brainstorming. Not one thought finished, not one process completed.A Ni beta wouldn't be all SEI about it like he is. They would propose action, what to do and wouldn't stand there saying "But did we learn anything from this???". Also shifting though a lot of different types shows a lack of focus on Ni and in essence is an indulgence in Ne.
Apart from (obviously) agreeing with the hightlighted bit, I also agree with the point on Ne, since I made this point myself -- but as for Fe, I disagree. It does mean that he's probably not a Fe-dominant, but it doesn't rule out Fe creative.
About seeing things in terms of winning and losing. I do that but I'm not sure what it means.
For example...take job interviews. I see them in terms of me "winning the job interview" or me "losing the job interview". The good thing in this is that I can put up my best effort there. The bad thing is that sometimes even if I'm not sure I really like the job I try to make the impression I do just in order not to "lose" the interview.
Now, I talked about this once with my father in law who I see as Delta, likely ENFp and he had a very peaceful way of looking at job interview as in it is just a place where you check whether your needs and wants meet and employers needs and wants meet. There is no "competition" in his mind. It is just about seeing if pieces of the puzzle match. Even if there are more than one person who seeks for the job he doesn't see it as a competition but again he sees that it is about choosing the person who fits best for the job and if you are not that person then you go to another company and see if you are the perfect person for them. And eventually you find your place. And you shouldn't feel bad about not gettinh the job or "losing" the interview. I seriously hate to lose especially to someone else in a job interview even if I hate the job. I might eventually turn down the actual job offer but when I'm in the actual situation it is hard for me to not try to "win it".
My father in law has a calming effect on me in these things and makes me more relaxed and less focused on winning.
So what kind of functional preference this implies? Expat has been talking about some kind of Fe/Ti connection and anti-Delta attitude. Can you see anything else? And can you see my father in law having a Delta attitude and even being ENFp?
How can it be a good argument against INTp when I can relate to almost all of it? What is the difference between XoX and me then, based on what he writes about "team spirit"? You have to point out a difference, otherwise it is certainly not a good argument against INTp.Apart from (obviously) agreeing with the hightlighted bit, I also agree with the point on Ne, since I made this point myself -- but as for Fe, I disagree. It does mean that he's probably not a Fe-dominant, but it doesn't rule out Fe creative.
So...thehotelambush and Kristiina are converging on ENFp
Expat sticks to Fe/Ti and INFp/ENTp thing
Phaedrus is for INTp or INFp
If I get it right Anndelise sees Fe>Fi and group thinking over individuality in a way which is apparently not Delta but rather e.g. Beta (I'm not quite sure what Delta aristocracy is about since all Delta's seem to be all for individuality)
Then my certain attitudes e.g. the winning thing and some others are claimed to be anti-Delta
VI was IP / INTp but INTp is very rarely seen in me otherwise except I relate well to Phaedrus
Delta...anti-Delta...ugh. Reinin dichotomies and descriptions could be the next stage. We converged quickly to a small set of types but now we/I are a bit stuck. I still believe that by bringing in new information the right answer becomes clearer :wink: (and this is supposed to be Ne and Te attitude?)
XoX, if you want to test the hypothesis that you are either an INTp or an INFp, here is what you can do:
1. Try to determine whether you are a Merry Subjectivist or a Serious Objectivist in the Reinin dichotomies.
2. Determine whether you identify more with the socionic club of NTs or the club of NFs, and whether you identify more with Keirsey's Rationals (NTs) or his Idealists (NFs). There are some tests on the internet, and you can take Keirsey's Four Temperament Sorter (or whatever it is called), and you can read the descriptions on Internet.
3. In the Enneagram, compare 4w5s with 5w4s (only those two subtypes). My opinion is that an Ni-INTp should identify more with 5w4 and an Ni-INFp more with 4w5. Snegledmaca might disagree, but at least if you identify more with 4w5 I take that as an argument for INFp and against INTp. Try to compare more than one pair of type descriptions.
4. Compare socionic type descriptions of INFps and INTps. You find DarkAngelFireWolf69's on Ganin's site, and you can read misutii's translations of Filatova's on this site. And we also have Stratityevskaya's.
Even if you are none of those two types, the result of such an investigation might be helpful.
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