Well, in my experience with LSIs, before I knew about socionics, I thought they were stupid and that something was fundamentally wrong with them. Like, do you really need specific instructions to operate a postal meter? And can't you figure out on your own why that rule doesn't apply or is unnecessary here? They seemed to think I was an undisciplined rebel.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
My dad is an LSI and my brother is IEE. He always lectures my brother on things like how he shouldn't let troublemakers into his life, how he needs to get his life together, how he shouldn't be rude to other people, there really is no end to the amount of advice he has to give my brother. I suppose it doesn't help that he still lives at home after 8 years of going to college without a degree.
Of course he has lots of advice to give, but never offers any concrete help with anything, which I'm assuming is what he really needs. I can't really blame him for not trying to really help because my brother will never give a straight answer for anything, although I can guess he doesn't in order to avoid another lecture, and he's really flaky, and never commits to anything.
I dunno, maybe growing up with an angry LSI can really hurt an IEE's ego.
The saddest ESFj
...
My dad is an LSI. I feel sorry for your brother lol. My dad is always telling me what i need to do in life. Always telling me i should use filing cabinets and think about what i say before i say it. He watches everything i do like a hawk, ready to take over when i screw it up. I have had problems with confidence and im sure its partially to do with that. In your case the poor bugger also has a supervisor for a brother. At least for me i have a lovely ISFj mother who kept me sane.
And here kind of lies the problem. The LSI will rape the ENFp's life while the ENFp doesn't really inflict themselves on the LSI at all. By the way i agree with what Slackermom said about LSI's not always being as intelligent as they seem. My dad rang me up a few nights ago with computer problems and he bought a new keyboard. I asked him if he reset his computer and he didn't think of that. This type of thing does happen constantly, although he always makes me look dumb too with the practical things.
My cousin is LSI and i secretly dislike her a lot. Basically she talks about herself and her job or shes telling me off. Im sure its partially projection because she reminds me of my dad. Like if i muck up or do something when we are out its always these little digging comments. One of these days i wont take it any more im sure.
With all this being said i know my dad tries. Hes a very good provider and man. Basically in my household i didn't use any Ne, so i just developed superior Fi. My Ne has probablly been handicapped but at least i can deal with people very well.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
I had problems with an LSI at work. It came to a head when the LSI screamed at me and told me to fuck off out of the blue. A full scale barny ensued, my gloves were off. This resulted in an uneasy truce.
Anyway, some staff changes came to pass, where there was more delta types, and an ESFp. A lot of people made fun of the LSI, who's now on sick leave for work related stress. Oh dear.
I sometimes get the impression that LSI's can piss everyone off.
Hey Cyclops
They aren't too bad on the inside i do recognise that. Dad cried when i left home so he is quite soft on the inside.
These days i dont really mind. It always kind of annoys me but i just do most of it to appease him. Typically the ideas he has are in someway beneficial to me or the family so its actually good for me to do them. Sometimes his ideas are annoying though, like he will tell me to do something that i percieve as clearly unncessesary. Like he will tell me that i need to photocopy and print out a document that is in my email, or ring an organisation and ask a question that im 95% clear on.
A couple of times in my life he has pushed me quite heavily to do things that i did not want to do. Things that actually hurt me emotionally and physically. Kept incessantly pushing me. Recently i resisted him head on about something i was very clear about. The trouble arised when he could not see that what he thinks is right is not right for someone else. In all honesty he probablly deserved to be punched in the mouth for it.
Last edited by meatburger; 06-07-2009 at 01:33 PM.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
for some reason ISTj girls tend to want to be friends w/ me.
I know one ISTj guy I can't stand. He talks overly loudly (even in a quiet area) and sort of raises up his chin and looks down at you. It comes across as insecurity to me. He then says absolute things. And he likes to start sentences with "No, no, there is no way they would ever consider XYZ" and then will relate some historical information to that "because in the state of Kentucky, they voted to do XYZ back in 1992." I find it kind of boring and usually irrelevant to what is going on NOW. He's often wrong as well, as he leaves out some info in his Ti system (that may be outdated, etc.)
But the ISTj girls, I can handle because when they say something absolute, I convert it to a softer statement in my mind. So... "Mexican people are the best salsa dancers" becomes "some Mexican people are the best salsa dancers, and others may or may not be good at salsa dancing." That way, I keep myself from jumping at them to start arguing. I think they actually mean the latter sometimes, but can't phrase it openly enough. I don't mind their structured approach because I don't get that close to them. I mostly go and do "fun" things out in public with them. I do appreciate their loyalty, logic and toughness.
At one point I was friends w/ a very unhappy ISTj girl who had this Ti system of all guys being jerks who want to screw you over and they're only good for their $ (and she continued to choose jerks). So I told her she was wrong and we talked about spirituality -- I explained I was only doing this because she was a good friend and I cared. She actually appreciated it and it helped her. Then she dated a poor starving artist who actually loved her (prob an INFp). They didn't stay together, but it was a first for her. And she also could only paint copies from photographs and I helped her loosen up a bit and do some more creative paintings and she started to paint more from the heart. But then I got tired of it all and we lost touch.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
There is a new woman at the post office who is an LSI. No matter how I try, I always seem to do something that irritates her. But since I know about socionics I can sort of explain it a bit.
For example, I told her that I wasn't receiving notifications for packages. That's a statement... kind of Te. I wasn't implying that she wasn't doing her job or anything, but she seemed to take it personal. With grinding teeth she allowed me to check the book.
Funny thing is that I've done so a million times before. I use the mail a lot and everyone at the post office knows me. It is this particular woman that I can't really get along with. I've come to the conclusion that Fe valuers are quite sensitive to raw statements, generally applying negative connotations when there are none.
Whatever, I get anxious speaking to this woman and I suspect it works the same both ways.
[] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Yes so and I've experienced it. Not saying its the case but you should be able to tell yourself.
why? why? am I rebelling against socionics? Of course all the burlesque dancers were ENFjs. I was totally out of my quadra.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
You're currently experiencing inner conflict, probably due to an excessive prevalence of Beta waves in your brain.
you are walking into a trap. soon he will bed you and be done with you
you are walking into a tarp. soon it will be over your bed and you will be done with it.
in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti...
LOL. I like the tarp/trap thing.
It may have been a trap that I narrowly escaped! I was not overwhelmed by Fe burlesque-ness so I was able to avoid it...this time. Don't think there will be another time.
and now, back to our regularly scheduled quadra. ISTps!!! I need some lack of emotional expression in my life.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
All the problems I had with my confidence as a kid was my LSI mom's fault!
I can think of two instances, which I feel if anything help validate my self-typing.
-I was 10 years old and was staying over at a cousin's house; he and his friends had this courtesy thing while playing Halo, where after getting a kill, you had to allow the person to respawn and get his weapons back or something like that. For whatever reason, probably as a joke, I decided to ignore it and from then on it turned into this downward spiral where I ended up doing some things that were really stupid and passive-agressive retrospect. I hate myself for it and pretty much deserved most of it. I was a pretty stupid kid. I think I even joked about how it'd be a good idea to hit some girl who was bothering us which he called me out for - just shameless. It got so bad that his dad pretty much urged me to leave because we were stressing him out, and it's all kind of ironic considering the fact that he'd been my favorite cousin up until that point, and we were always being set up on play-dates from an early age. It was also around the time of the 2004 election and he got pissed off at me for naively supporting John Kerry, along with a bunch of other little things.
-There was also a dean/teacher/coach in highschool who I had an awkward dynamic with. I originally met him as a teacher during a workshop before my freshman year. I was really shy at the time and once school started we would pass by me and ask me how my day was and I would just nod awkwardly, thinking he'd take it as a greeting. He took that personally and even brought up a few years later. There was also another time where he'd try to engage me in small talk, by talking about his travel experiences which were somewhat relevant since he'd noticed that I had taken an interest in Southern European culture based on the questions I would ask my history teacher during after-school hours (they shared the classroom), and I just tuned him out completely which was really shitty on my part. As if nothing he said interested me. There were also a bunch of other instances that rubbed me the wrong way and perhaps him also, which I don't really care to get in-depth into. Some involve him repeatedly telling me take off my hat during a school basketball game, calling me a groupie in front of the team as a joke in order to liven up the atmosphere, asking me why I wander the halls with my friend instead of going down to the lunchroom, etc. There was one instance however when he confronted this one ILE who was a jackass directly about a bullying incident he was a part of, involving a freshman girl 4 years younger than him, which was honestly really satisfying to watch. He actually seemed kind of nice and worthy of respect from a distance so it's weird that I would be put-off by him.
Last edited by suedehead; 06-03-2014 at 10:51 AM.
again,maybe that's an age thing. I still feel bad, as well ,about having been so awkward, pushing people away while they were trying to built some sort of rapport. In terms of functions, you may be a Fe ego who's not developed their (their? D= ) strong points in such a poised way and feel bad at being "bad" at what they're supposed to naturally be "good" at .You perceive all those interpersonal nuances/dynamics and how you could have acted on them in much better ways but didn't and you kind of hate yourself about it. (totally not sure but) maybe that's something an ENFp or Se ego would bother much less about , but apparently you still linger on those moments. maybe you should give yourself more opportunities to work on those aspects and see how that goes. I mean, after a while you don't really walk in the dark, since you get to know people better,noticing patterns and knowing better what fits the occasion. Also wtf@old man getting pissed off at 10 yo for supporting other party.maybe he was mad at ur parents?
also,your avatars remind me of raf simons imagery
Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 06-03-2014 at 11:55 AM.
I came here searching informations about IEE-LSI relationship, and I think other people may get here in the future.
So, I'm resuming this to add my experience.
"Conflicting" could sound exaggerated at first as a term for this relationship, but going deeper you understand better "why" and at what extent they are conflicting.
To me these people are better when they are just friends (so, when they have not a love or job relation) and so their main characteristics don't collide.
It looks as an happarent duality when this conditions are met.
Very often I noticed that IEE uses LSI's logical structure to fill their Ti Polr, taking LSI's thougths as "Te" material for their mob, despite the latter may be erroneus and not "Te-derived". Maybe this could be due to the fact LSI expresses his structure also through Se (IEE's role), so it is perceived by him a lot similiar to a Te product.
Making this short: they see in LSI's logic a truth and easily trust it (if they have a good friendship with them and the IEE respects him).
On the other side, the LSI may feel very safe near this type, because IEE is gregarious and not judgmental in general. The IEE gives to the LSI the impression that there can be no inconvenience in dealing with them, assuring their Ni.
However, the structural problems are very clear when the relationship is more intense.
The IEE is "too" open to possibilities, often not filtering out the positive ones from the negative ones and "trying them out" sacrificing the judgment on datas avable. This is not a very appreciated method by the LSI, who prefers to maximize everything also according to its principles: "it is useless to start something that, according to all present datas, is very likely to fail".
On the other hand, the IEE thinks that the LSI is too unwilling to experiment with new things and letting himself go.
What you can't expect even in friendship:
When the IEE tells the LSI his love-related problems, he will receive very cold and aromantic, as well as purely logical, advices. How to go about regaining dignity and honor lost; how to think about how meaningless a relationship with a person is given the information that promised "bad" from the start, ecc.
The word "dignity" was not random: the LSI probably did in the past the same choices the IEE is doing now, but has learned that it is not possible to missteps, or he would find himself in risky situations where his weak feeling could be exposed. He knows that he is fragile, which is why he preserves himself and advises others to do so too.
This is going to be written from my own point of view and experience.
I think IEEs like my Si, and I appreciate their Fe. I can help them in day to day matters, have good aesthetic sense, and this they seem to like. I like the energy they give off in social situations (making jokes, poking fun at others).
But ultimately, I can't take the discussions I have with them very seriously, as they don't seem to weigh their words very carefully to say the least. I had one IEE lie to me about her relational status, which in itself seems unrelated to type or Ti inhibiting. I don't think honesty is type related. But the way she went about it (letting the possibility of a relationship float ambiguously) was pretty Ne, which is something I couldn't protect myself against. Ultimately, I'm not comfortable with ambiguous situations, that is, situations where the endgame is not clearly communicated.
I've had some decent IEE friends, usually chill and non-imposing yet sociable. I think if it stays at the stage of just casually hanging out, it can be fine. But when things become more demanding, the communication feels imprecise and ambiguous.
When it comes to romance, I like to know where things are going, and settle for someone, IEEs prefer keeping options open which makes me feel unsafe, not in a physical sense, but more like "when will they decide on ME". I read in Strat's description of IEE that Huxley prefers to give the impression of attracting as many people as possible. While it would never occur to me to do something like this, this is how SLIs pick up on a "worthwhile" person potential-wise, according to this description. With EIEs I know they want me, if that's the case; with IEEs, I'm just another possibility. IME.
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I actually relate to this. I would never start something unless I have sufficient data confirming it's likely to work and that there are no obvious obstacles. For instance, I wouldn't move around or swap furniture unless I've measured everything and envisioned the new layout both in terms of looks and practicality. Someone who's going to come and say "hey, lets move this over here and see how it looks" and starts moving things around without a plan or without considering practical implications would piss the crap out of me. In the best case, I would see something like this as a stupid waste of energy.
On the flip side, I would sometimes plan out an entire project to the smallest detail, and when I go ahead and implement it, stuff I didn't foresee comes up and the project fails or doesn't accomplish what I wanted it to accomplish. In this type of scenario, I get disappointed and start beating myself up for not being smart or competent enough. But then, someone like the IEE you described may come along and say things like "hey, don't worry about it, it's no big deal" or "so what if it didn't work, life is all about trial and error; you had a good idea and you tried to materialize it, which is all that matters" which can be psychologically liberating.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
I don't think I'm necessarily attracted to people who maximize their likability and want to attract as many people as possible. Even less so if giving "an impression" of likeability/amicability is what matters to them. I also don't like feeling like a disposable option in any form of a serious relationship.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
I don't know. Most of these things are very broad and generic. I don't think authenticity is type related, but different types would probably go about it in different ways. As for presenting yourself in certain ways and being image-conscious or image-oriented, I guess would correlate better with certain enneagram types, such as 3s, and certain pathologies like narcissism, etc.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
A lot of issues first stem from IEE. I think a central conflict theme here is all about internal sensing.
IEE recruit helpers and LSI quickly sees the nature of that game and refuses to play. After seeing that there is no horizon, always new ones, always some new thing being opened up and started, the currency IEE is able to pay does not cover the costs of the constant aggravation.
"What's in it for me?"
"Why should I help if you are not going to help yourself?"
Similar to LSE activation, except LSI sees little merit at all in being logistical support for "a flake".
Yeah I agree. I'll add more.
Some authors, like Niffweed, or those from the WSS crowd, really made this idea popular: that somehow seeking authenticity in oneself or others was connected to valuing Fi. I just don't see it.
The term "authenticity" might mean different things to different people. But even if one does value authenticity in oneself, and defines it as "being true to one's values", this doesn't mean the person is Fi valuing. This is really primitive socionics. That just because a person says "I have my own set of values" people jump up and down saying "Fi". What a load of shit.
First of all, people can say what they want, it doesn't say anything about where their energy is focused. Self-reported information is pretty useless if taken at face value.
Second, having a set of values one adheres to could very well be something related to Ti or Fe.
Hell, rationality in general makes one define oneself in a certain way, and the stronger the rationality, the more a person defines themselves in a rigid way, which usually is the way they want to see themselves at that moment and not the way they actually are in a deeper sense.
Last edited by Ave; 09-11-2022 at 08:40 AM.
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I think that having a set of well-defined values/principles and being relatively non-compromising about them is closely related to both Fi and Ti. It's just that one is primarily concerned about people and relationships, whereas the other is concerned about logical structure and inanimate systems. Both deal with people and both include "thinking" and "feeling" (to borrow MBTI terminology), it's just that the focus and priorities are different. A Ti type would optimize for logical/objective consistency of actions and how they fit into larger frameworks and concepts (including interpersonal relationships), while an Fi type would optimize for personal/subjective consistency, seek and utilize opportunities for collaboration, and develop an acute awareness of how strong interpersonal bonds can influence, improve, and/or extend larger systems/organizations/institutions/etc. And perhaps a point of contrast with Ti would be that Fi types would regard developing intimate interpersonal bonds as an end-goal by itself, but I'm not really sure, as in theory, they should also be the masters of making use of these bonds to make other/greater things happen.
I agree that rational types, especially Ti and Fi ones, have the most rigid self-image and behaviors in general.
Last edited by Park; 09-11-2022 at 03:07 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
Freestyle riffing on the Fi description above, but I think I should be mostly on point.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
I think it's more the anger and excessive pedantry plus hypocrisy of the LSI that starts the issues. The IEE lives life and the LSI takes issue with it, loudly, meanwhile the LSI often behaves similarily the people they criticize. At least, that's the way I've experienced it. Not bad people, just not my kind of people.
What bothers me the most is that LSI tend to act controlling and pedantic, whereas I'm generally scattered and inattentive. But I tend to admire and respect them at a distance, and it can work if you limit the psychological distance.
One tip, focus more on your auxiliary/demonstrative function when dealing with a conflictor, they may still be bothered but at least it's something they understand and can process.
Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!
I posted a delta example of one IEE who made a biography of LSI (Musk). Seems like he didn't like LSI's need for being emotionally intensified (as opposed to be satisfied) and drive towards the goal at the cost of lack of pleasures disregard of money as an object that brings personal benefits to be harvested.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
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lsi wants to establish order and record of all they put hands on and iee is allergic to it. Even when I try to organize a bit the work iee refuses to accomplish. I leave iee be, but lsi wouldnt. This would be a constant headache for both.