LSI-IEE Conflict Relations (ISTj and ENFp)

[Exodus]

However, although he likes her, he is sort of bewildered by her. Her husband left her and they were having a very difficult divorce. Talking about it with him, the LSI said, "well to tell you the truth I'd also have divorced her. She'd drive anyone crazy. She keeps forgetting appointments, she keeps forgetting where she puts things, and she's full of crazy ideas like buying 'green coffee' or refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like. I keep wondering if anyone can actually be like that, or if not some kind of mask she wears for whatever reason".

This illustrates a good point. Conflict, and bad relations in general, are not so much "I hate this person" as " How could anyone ever be like this?" We all subconsciously want to believe that other people value the same things as us - or consciously believe that they should.

[07490]

Well... I'm an IEE, and I was arrested once in a dictatorship by an ice cold person that I'm now sure must have been an LSI. He arrested me for having an American Visa in my passport and for not liking my face....

I got so pissed because of the apparent abuse of power that I totally didn't care to understand anything of what he said to me in his language, even though I kind of understood... I used to be a smoker back then, and as I was sitting in my cell waiting for him to check ALL (and I mean ALL) of my papers from childhood, I found one last cigarette in my package, and I started smoking it, even though there was a big non-smoking sign on the door of my cell...

The officer saw it, and marched over to my cell to tell me it was not allowed. I pretended that I didn't understand and told him in my language I couldn't understand and continued smoking.

Well... Here's how it went:

He : Smoking is illegal here (in his language)
I : (innocent, welcoming and helpful voice) I'm sorry, I don't understand what you want? (smoked a little more)
He: (unwelcoming voice) Stop smoking, it's an order! (in his language).
I : (a voice as if unhappy not to be able to help out) Do you speak english? I am so sorry I can't speak you language. (in english) (smoked a little more)
He: (pulling his uniform, standing up even taller) In this country we speak our language (in his language). I order you to stop smoking!!! (at this moment he took out his keys and started to open the door. Meanwhile I continued smoking. He entered the cell.)
He: It is illegal to smoke here! (his language) and then he made a smoking gesture to his mouth, to illustrate the obvious.
I : (In english, with a face that showed I had understood everything) : AAHHH!!! Now I understand! You want a cigarette??? Then I took the packet out of my pocket, opened it and reached him the open packet so he could see it was empty. I said : "I'm sorry, it was the last one! (Then I smoked a little more)
He: (in english, screaming) "NOOO SMOKING" and then he turned and pointed the sign on the back of the door.
I: (apologizing tone) Oh, I'm sooo sorry!!! I'll stop immediately! I must have been so nervous I didn't see the sign! I guess I can just take one last puff? (Then I puffed my cigarette one last time, and killed the anyway already completely smoked cigarette.

How it went? I guess he wanted to get rid of me as soon as possible, and happy to have found a reason to punish me, he sent me off an hour later after having fined me - for smoking inside.

Don't know if that story qualifies, and I didn't know I could act like that. I'm an obedient, conflict avoiding citizen in my country, but the injustice of the situation made me a rebellion.... I was so angry I could have strangled that guy for his need to show me who's in power. I still feel angry thinking about it.

That is very inmature, sorry i am not defiending my dual or anything.

[Wynch]

This illustrates a good point. Conflict, and bad relations in general, are not so much "I hate this person" as " How could anyone ever be like this?" We all subconsciously want to believe that other people value the same things as us - or consciously believe that they should.

Yes, I was just thinking the same thing as I read Expat's story. That's how the conflict relationships end up working out where I work. It's more a matter of disagreeing with how people do things and wondering why they think that's a remotely intelligent approach to a problem.

[Park]

However, although he likes her, he is sort of bewildered by her. Her husband left her and they were having a very difficult divorce. Talking about it with him, the LSI said, "well to tell you the truth I'd also have divorced her. She'd drive anyone crazy. She keeps forgetting appointments, she keeps forgetting where she puts things, and she's full of crazy ideas like buying 'green coffee' or refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like. I keep wondering if anyone can actually be like that, or if not some kind of mask she wears for whatever reason".

I wonder how differently would an SLI take this.

refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like.

That and things of the like are crazy indeed. Pure laughable nonsense. It reminds me of someone who told me that porn degrades love or something....

[tiny_dancer]

Wow, that's really random about the egg. I also would have no clue why she was angry. I'd just consider it a matter of personal preference.

I only know one LSI closely enough to conflict at all - my best friend's father. He gets very irritable in traffic and it sets me on pins and needles. Other times I'm just not sure how to 'be' around him. At first it's fine because we can rely on social pleasantries and discuss whatever has been going on in each other's lives up to that point, but continuing conversation after that is difficult. I don't think he'd enjoy my random associations of thought. I say whatever comes into my head and it can be a very large jump. Oftentimes I'll say something completely absurd and I do it purely for a laugh, but I don't think he'd understand my sense of humor at all, so I just turn into a generic 'politely social' person. I have more open conflict with EIEs. Not my friends, but clients and coworkers.

[BLauritson]

Unfortunately, two of my cousins who are half-brothers are LSI and IEE. They don't particularly like eachother, and they fought a HELL of a lot when they were young. As in literally nearly all the time they were together they fought. Back then, I assumed it was just normal for siblings to fight like that (considering I had no siblings of my own) but looking back on it, and knowing now their types, it's pretty obvious to me that it was more than mere sibling rivalry. I don't really have any detailed stories or anything, although I know the LSI perceives the IEE as being weird, since the IEE is, by many standards, eccentric (which is actually one of the things I like about him). I get on with both of them, but I prefer the IEE and generally always have done. I suppose some of that is to do with who they are individually though.

[Sirena]

That and things of the like are crazy indeed. Pure laughable nonsense. It reminds me of someone who told me that porn degrades love or something....

PORN FTW!!!

[Markuz]

At first it's fine because we can rely on social pleasantries and discuss whatever has been going on in each other's lives up to that point, but continuing conversation after that is difficult. I don't think he'd enjoy my random associations of thought. I say whatever comes into my head and it can be a very large jump. Oftentimes I'll say something completely absurd and I do it purely for a laugh, but I don't think he'd understand my sense of humor at all, so I just turn into a generic 'politely social' person.

I'd say that this, to a degree, sums up my interactions with the IEE I know. The random thought process is often funny, but eventually becomes tiring, leaving me wanting to just scream out "WTF?! How did we get here from what we were just talking about?? Can I get a second to catch up please??" In return, i'd say his only problem with LSIs is thier need for "everything to make sense".

There are never any major heated arguements between us, just disagreements over the most petty of things. For instance, as a school project our earth science teacher had us go to the Museum of Natural History. Our group, which consisted of an SLI, the IEE, an IEI, someone whose type im unsure of(but might be an SLI) and myself had decided to get some food before we started working. When we got to the food court everyone minus my IEI friend had decided that the prices were way too high(it's Manhattan, what do you expect?) Sheepishly following the IEE, the other two decided they'd go with him to the pizza shop we had went to the last time, but only after about five minutes of arguing with me over me decision to stay and eat there instead of wasting time going somewhere else even though it was alot more expensive(I didn't even have enough money to pay for everything I had, so my IEI had to add $2 to the money I had.)

[Exodus]

This movie is centered around a beautiful example of IEE-LSI conflict. Batman, as LSI, fights to protect the stability of society, while adhering to a strict moral code, and the Joker, as IEE, plays vast psychological experiments to reveal people's "true essences", eschewing the attempt to assign his actions any kind of logical justification or plan (Ti + Ni). He introduces chaos by showing the inadequacy of society to cope with things that do not obey its preconceived expectations. But the message of the movie was that, although morality and societal structures (Ti) may not represent anything permanent or universal (Ne), they are important nonetheless. It's a somewhat Nietzschean philosophy.

There is also the Smilexian concept of rationality: Bruce Wayne is defined by his object of thought. He is Batman because he has to be, because people need him to be Batman.

[Logos]

That law vs. chaos analysis seems about right.

[Hitta]

Dark Knight was Gamma v.s. Alpha.

[Logos]

Dark Knight was Gamma v.s. Alpha.

No.

[Hitta]

No.

yes

[Logos]

yes

Batman was clearly a force representing law, order, and Beta mentality. That was as plain as day.

[Hitta]

Batman was clearly a force representing law, order, and Beta mentality. That was as plain as day.

Which I said in another post is possible, Gammas represent laws and order though, they just aren't aggressively producing. This is actually a hard thing to say for Batman, I just don't think hes the type of person represented in the movie that likes eccentricity. To me, he seemed overly stable, and he felt as if he was actually doing the service of the people. Theres a lot of things that make me think Beta though.

[Hitta]

Also, to me, its almost as if Nolan wanted everyone to feel sympathy for the Joker's goals. From, the thing that *spoiler*....... batman did with the cellphones to spy on each other, to the Joker's horrifying dialogs with Batman, it was as if you were actually given the option of understanding the Joker. People say that the Joker was psychotic and other things(and he appeared so by his mannerisms and stuff), but the Joker's message wasn't really incorrect.

[Logos]

Which I said in another post is possible, Gammas represent laws and order though, they just aren't aggressively producing. This is actually a hard thing to say for Batman, I just don't think hes the type of person represented in the movie that likes eccentricity. To me, he seemed overly stable, and he felt as if he was actually doing the service of the people. Theres a lot of things that make me think Beta though.

You are mistaken: societal laws and order are more representative of Beta than Gamma.

[Hitta]

You are mistaken: societal laws and order are more representative of Beta than Gamma.

No, actually they are both.

Difference between Gamma and Beta is that Gammas are about following the law, and Betas are about creating the law.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The Joker and Batman are both right, and to me Joker isn't really a villain because he's so kick-ass. I was siding with the campy, fun-loving Joker more than I was the serious, stoic Batman... that's for sure.

Technically didn't Two-Face kill more people than the Joker anyway? The Joker is more like a Jigsaw or Hannibal Lector or psychological villain and I love those.

Joker was a victim obviously, because why else would he do that 'social experiment' at the end. He wanted proof that humanity was good- and he seemed to soften a bit when it happened. The Joker rocks. He's like the bad boy you go and fuck and not tell your mom about.

[Angel Alliterator]

I understand you may think the Joker was cool and all, but how in the world can you sympathize with someone who clearly has Antisocial Personality Disorder?

Though Batman shows aspects of having Paranoid and maybe even Schizotypal personality disorders.

[Rubicon]

I was wondering - from LSIs' points of view, what annoys you about IEEs? From my experiences listening to an LSI bemoan an IEE's behaviour, it's usually to do with the IEE being disorganised, having to wing things at the last minute. But it seems to work for them, so I don't see what the problem is.

IEEs - how do LSIs make you feel when they push you?

[Rubicon]

Very ***** annoyed, of course, lol.

Cheers.

End of thread.

[Rubicon]

In my experience, it can go much deeper than that. At its worst, the LSI will see the IEE as someone terribly inconsequential. Not at all productive, intelligent or useful to what the LSI needs to accomplish. The IEE will see the LSI as overbearing, dictatorial and evil and constrictive.

Especially when the IEE interjects his brand of witticisms in a conversation... often (in my experience) based on joking about the side-effects of a totally impractical notion about, say, ethical relations or productivity. A delta ST might find this humour cute and fascinating, especially as it relates directly to his sphere of interests and even work practices.

An LSI doesn't care that something "could" be practical. And doesn't like to joke about something that "could" happen. The LSI will either not understand, not care, or get angry and impatient that he has to talk to a person with seemingly no direction in life, and someone totally useless and unnecessary to associate with, from the point of view of needing to maintain the integrity of the LSI's system.

At its worst.

Compare it with how an ILE supervizes an LSI. Because the ILE has logic in his ego block, he can make his absurd suggestion as practical (to the LSI) as possible so that the LSI's mind "is blown" and his logical system is constricted and such. And he has no choice but to change some aspect of his rational system if pressed. Either that, or react viscerally and dogmatically to the ENTps suggestion without a logical reason, risking to look like an idiot. Once again, an extreme example.

It seems to me (assuming my typings are correct) that it's kinda one-sided in that the LSI thinks of the IEE as inconsequential like you said - even simply stupid - while the IEE is sort of just at a loss as to where he's going wrong. Feeling that he can never win. I guess it seems to me that the IEE takes it personally - that he's just never going to live up to the LSI's standards, but at the same time doesn't really blame the LSI or expect the LSI to change .... whereas the LSI naturally assumes the problems are all the IEE's and will try to make him see the light 'til the cows come home.

[thePirate]

I had a relationship with an LSI for almost a year.

The pushiness was unneccesary because I work better under pressure/time crunch. Of the two LSI's Ive come in contact with, one I loved, the other I dislike heavily. From my point of view, he sticks too rigidly to conventional norms, and doesn't question the world around him. Somewhat robotic, not wanting to take chances, seems scared of life. boring.

Thats what bothered me.

Also close-minded.

[meatburger]

uhhhhhhfgf.

When we were younger i wasn't a huge fan of her because i said to my parents that she was bossy. Anyway i haven't seen her much for years but shes now moved to my city a couple of days ago. I saw on facebook that it was her birthday so i rang her up and said i would take her out for dinner.

Anyway so we were sitting there and im listening to her talk about variable interest rates and shit like that and her house hunting. All about her. Then shes talking about how she was the acting manager of her last role and how shes now has a huge pay rise. She was talking about how much guidance everyone else needed and how she was telling them what to do. She called herself my rich bitch cousin.

So anyway i payed for her dinner it wasn't that cheap. $65 + a few beers and i go to catch the bus and realise the next one isn't for an hour and a half. I mention this to her and she says thats a bummer im getting a lift. Im like oh you live in casurina too dont you. I dont typically like to impose on people but 1 hour and a half wait in a 90% humid climate when everything is closed is not cool. Finally she offers me a lift (they lived about 5 mins away from where im staying). Anyway im trying to talk to her in the car but she is totally not listening and playing with her other cousins baby in the back seat. We arrive and i try to point out my room to her and she doesn't respond too busy with baby. I hadn't even seen her for like 8 years lol. I had to say bye about 3 times before she said bye to me.

So now shes just poked me on facebook..... . And she tells me how she loves me

She said she wants to come to any uni parties i have. Man no way she is ruining my harmony too many times again. I actually have no fear telling a relative i dont like them lol.

/Rant

[jewels]

wow, she does sound like a bitch! But I've actually had a lot of female friends who are ISTJs are are really nice. Of course, we didn't always agree, but they were generally friendly and wouldn't do things like that! That is just rude to not offer a ride. And rich bitch should've picked up the tab if she keeps bragging like that.

[07490]

You paid for her dinner and she wont offer you a ride? even her Dual is ashame of her! my goodness that ISTj cousin of yours.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

uhhhhhhfgf.

When we were younger i wasn't a huge fan of her because i said to my parents that she was bossy. Anyway i haven't seen her much for years but shes now moved to my city a couple of days ago. I saw on facebook that it was her birthday so i rang her up and said i would take her out for dinner.

Anyway so we were sitting there and im listening to her talk about variable interest rates and shit like that and her house hunting. All about her. Then shes talking about how she was the acting manager of her last role and how shes now has a huge pay rise. She was talking about how much guidance everyone else needed and how she was telling them what to do. She called herself my rich bitch cousin.

This kinda sucks if you're struggling with shit. I hate people that come out with this sort of bullshit..but it all depends on it's delivery, it may have been OK. For instance there's a girl I know who's been taking an interest in me in a romantic way and i'm considering going out with her: she talks about financial plans and variable rates and jobs and stuff-she's on the ball and tbh for me i'm personally sick of women I know being shit with money.

So anyway i payed for her dinner it wasn't that cheap. $65 + a few beers and i go to catch the bus and realise the next one isn't for an hour and a half. I mention this to her and she says thats a bummer im getting a lift. Im like oh you live in casurina too dont you. I dont typically like to impose on people but 1 hour and a half wait in a 90% humid climate when everything is closed is not cool. Finally she offers me a lift (they lived about 5 mins away from where im staying). Anyway im trying to talk to her in the car but she is totally not listening and playing with her other cousins baby in the back seat. We arrive and i try to point out my room to her and she doesn't respond too busy with baby. I hadn't even seen her for like 8 years lol. I had to say bye about 3 times before she said bye to me.

Well, you did offer to take her out for her birthday, but it is kinda shit she didn't offer you a lift straight off. As to paying you attention, well, she had been with you for a while and babies are babies, they take up time and attention..you could have played with baby too

So now shes just poked me on facebook..... . And she tells me how she loves me

She said she wants to come to any uni parties i have. Man no way she is ruining my harmony too many times again. I actually have no fear telling a relative i dont like them lol.

/Rant

At least you made a good impression lol. Does she have a boyfriend? Prolly just wants to come to uni parties with you to meet a guy, but, I do think she likes you, just that from your short text she sounds like someone who is used to getting her own way.

Oh.. And as she is Beta, it's very possible her talk about being rich and a manager and all that is just bullshit, or at least a large amount of it. Beta's like to keep up appearances and "with the Jones'".

[strrrng]

Oh.. And as she is Beta, it's very possible her talk about being rich and a manager and all that is just bullshit, or at least a large amount of it. Beta's like to keep up appearances and "with the Jones'".

Oh, horse shit. Anyone can be a conformist.


@meatburger: not sure if any of that relates to her type (sounds like she could be an enneagram 1), but while reading it, the image of Rachel McAdams in Mean Girls popped into my head, lol.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Oh, horse shit. Anyone can be a conformist.

What's horse shit is that your going around this forum like some sort of militant internet addicted self appointed socionic police. I've said my piece. It's correct and it stays.

[The Greeter]

uhhhhhhfgf.

When we were younger i wasn't a huge fan of her because i said to my parents that she was bossy. Anyway i haven't seen her much for years but shes now moved to my city a couple of days ago. I saw on facebook that it was her birthday so i rang her up and said i would take her out for dinner.

Anyway so we were sitting there and im listening to her talk about variable interest rates and shit like that and her house hunting. All about her. Then shes talking about how she was the acting manager of her last role and how shes now has a huge pay rise. She was talking about how much guidance everyone else needed and how she was telling them what to do. She called herself my rich bitch cousin.

So anyway i payed for her dinner it wasn't that cheap. $65 + a few beers and i go to catch the bus and realise the next one isn't for an hour and a half. I mention this to her and she says thats a bummer im getting a lift. Im like oh you live in casurina too dont you. I dont typically like to impose on people but 1 hour and a half wait in a 90% humid climate when everything is closed is not cool. Finally she offers me a lift (they lived about 5 mins away from where im staying). Anyway im trying to talk to her in the car but she is totally not listening and playing with her other cousins baby in the back seat. We arrive and i try to point out my room to her and she doesn't respond too busy with baby. I hadn't even seen her for like 8 years lol. I had to say bye about 3 times before she said bye to me.

So now shes just poked me on facebook..... . And she tells me how she loves me

She said she wants to come to any uni parties i have. Man no way she is ruining my harmony too many times again. I actually have no fear telling a relative i dont like them lol.

/Rant

Well, I know most of us are calling her mean but maybe it's because she just did not know the "proper" thing to do, that is, to offer you a ride as a pay back.

I do not know if this is quadra related but I just assume that a favour will be returned sometime in the future. Sometimes I forget there were any such favours owed to me and sometimes not. On the other hand, I usually remember when I owe someone.

I think in her case it might be that she is truly inconsiderate, or it just didn't cross her mind and she couldn't immediately catch the hint that you somehow expected a ride from her, which you have the right to. In sum, I am saying that it might be an innocent mistake. She is, after all, showering a lot of attention to you, meatburger.

If we want to get into Socionics then maybe: Si is devalued, so she won't be able to detect this particular need/want of yours. Lack of Fi and Fe-seeking would be she does not know the 'proper'/'right' thing to do in this situation and would have probably appreciated it if you just demanded/asked for it out loud rather than through implication.

[meatburger]

I do not know if this is quadra related but I just assume that a favour will be returned sometime in the future.

Well you are right there. She invited me to her house for dinner last night . Perhaps i was being a bit harsh and mean to her im a bit prone to that lol. I wasn't totally upset about the lift in itself, it was more of the prospect of her being ISTj lol. That is something in socionics that makes me a bit sad, that i will likely have big problems connecting with certian people.

I will have to wait for an event that all the betas on campus are hanging out and invite her and hope she takes over on hitting on some guys. Getting her laid could be a step in the right direction.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well you are right there. She invited me to her house for dinner last night . Perhaps i was being a bit harsh and mean to her im a bit prone to that lol. I wasn't totally upset about the lift in itself, it was more of the prospect of her being ISTj lol. That is something in socionics that makes me a bit sad, that i will likely have big problems connecting with certian people.

Same here, although I come gradually to the final conclusion that I can't relate to everyone, and to do so will just me more harm in the long run. At least socionics explains why.

Still, you'd probably get on with your cousin OK if it's occasional interaction, rather than more indepth or regular interaction.

I will have to wait for an event that all the betas on campus are hanging out and invite her and hope she takes over on hitting on some guys. Getting her laid could be a step in the right direction.

Lol.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

It seems to me (assuming my typings are correct) that it's kinda one-sided in that the LSI thinks of the IEE as inconsequential like you said - even simply stupid - while the IEE is sort of just at a loss as to where he's going wrong. Feeling that he can never win. I guess it seems to me that the IEE takes it personally - that he's just never going to live up to the LSI's standards, but at the same time doesn't really blame the LSI or expect the LSI to change .... whereas the LSI naturally assumes the problems are all the IEE's and will try to make him see the light 'til the cows come home.

I hate to dredge up an old post (honestly!) but seeing as I've just experienced this I actually would like to discuss.

What you've said here is in my opinion right on the money. The IEE is thought of as inconsequential until some kind of snapping point with the LSI. Then bam, the LSI basically lets the IEE know that they'd been "putting up with them," that the relationship (in the broadest definition) was merely pretence on their behalf. No explanation, just "I don't like you, go away." -- which is the worst thing you can do to an IEE! At least if you give reasons we can work with that, figure out what it was exactly that x person didn't like. But by that point the LSI really doesn't care anymore. =)

This is my experience and it's only one. I really thought this person actually liked me but turns out I was wrong. And I definitely took it personally! Just because I wanted to know "what the fuck did I do?"

Anyone else had experiences that they can relate?

[07490]

Why not just not interact with the LSI and leave them alone? It's really not their fault to not accept you, that is their choice.... I am not criticizing anybody, but I think that's how we can avoid conflict with our conflictors.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Why not just not interact with the LSI and leave them alone? It's really not their fault to not accept you, that is their choice.... I am not criticizing anybody, but I think that's how we can avoid conflict with our conflictors.

I have no problem with that. It was more just the unexpectedness of the assault. I really didn't see it coming. If I had seen it coming I would have avoided them altogether. I'm not bitter towards them, there's not much point. I just found it interesting how offguard I was. And now am curious as to others experiences. =)

[Wrong Way Ticket]

At least if you give reasons we can work with that, figure out what it was exactly that x person didn't like.

By this I didn't mean to try to "fix" the relationship or anything. Just to satisfy some inner curiosity as to what the actual problem was. Perhaps I'm not really making sense.

[Park]

Numbers is my conflictor and HE KICKS ASS!

[shakealittle]

Speaking for myself, I get really uncomfortable with spontaneity or randomness. This doesn’t mean I’m strictly adhering to a daily schedule or anything like that but when things are very unfamiliar or undefined, I don’t know what to do with myself and will either do something to define it, find something to work towards or completely zone out. At worst, I will totally escape the situation. What I choose to do will depend on how important I evaluate the situation to be.

I’m not sure how one-sided the relationship is though. IEEs really misinterpret my Ti. They have this sensitivity to it and think of it as an absolute when there’s more underneath it all.

With that said, I keep in regular contact with an IEE and while I restrain myself around her I think we do value each other and we do appreciate each other looking out for the 8th function to keep that sort of respect.

[07490]

Numbers is my conflictor and HE KICKS ASS!

You really do kick ass too.