basic passions

[Joy]

Well, for starters, I'm an xNxx. My "N" preference is very strong, but none of the other three categories appear to be determined.

I have social skill and love talking, but I'm not a very open person as far as my feelings are concerned. I value my privacy. I also think too much, and always have.

I value people and have a very strong sense of justice. I am a good natured and compassionate person, but I am also very business minded and enterprising. I have to have time to just relax and do nothing though, too.

Anyways, my preference if basic passions (http://www.ptypes.com/type_passions.html) is as follows, highest to lowest (my book doesn't have the types inventive or creative, so they're not on this list. I think I'm a little inventive, though):

Idiosynchratic
Adventurous
Leisurely
Mercurial
Self-Sacrificing
Solitary
Conscientious
Aggressive
Serious and Vigilant (tied)
Dramatic
Self-Confident
Devoted
Sensitive (coming in last with a score of Zero)



My SLOAN type may be SCUAI, and I've divided up what the description of the type says according to how similar to it I am:

I am usually:
not afraid of doing the wrong thing, often late, people loving, prefers unpredictable to organized, not apprehensive about new encounters, likes philosophical discussions, not easily annoyed, enjoys danger, comfortable in unfamiliar situations, very curious, not embarrassed easily, adventurous, flexible, ready to act on the spot, not a bad loser, thrill seeker, not easily discouraged, optimistic, laid back, open to new experience, slow to judge others, socially skilled, easily talked into doing silly things, willing to take risks, adjusts easily, passionate about causes, willing to explain things twice, spontaneous, relaxed, believes in universal harmony, eager to soothe hurt feelings, fearless

I am only sometimes:
life of the party, not bothered by disorder, level emotions, not afraid to draw attention to self, worry free, not a perfectionist, anxiety free, always joking, easy to satisfy, outgoing, rarely prepared, disorganized

I am NOT (or rarely):
easy to get to know, likes crowds, thinks fun is the most important think in life, not very private, narcissistic, trusting



According to the DISC system, I'm mostly a Choleric (D-type) and somewhat a Sanguine (I-type). Let me know what you think.

[Rocky]

xNxx

P over J

F over T

xNFP

INFP over ENFP.

:wink:

[Angel von Himmel]

You have some noticable J tendencies, but in the complete context you appear to be P

Definate feeling preferance ...

So yeah, I also got xNFp from that ...

If you have time, you should read the ENFp and INFp profiles at the socion.info website or maybe even take the socionic's typology test that is there.

http://socion.info

[Cone]

I have social skill and love talking, but I'm not a very open person as far as my feelings are concerned. I value my privacy. I also think too much, and always have.

I value people and have a very strong sense of justice. I am a good natured and compassionate person, but I am also very business minded and enterprising. I have to have time to just relax and do nothing though, too.

Oh yeah, that's really xNFp. I was thinking more of ENTj/INTp.

[Rocky]

I have social skill and love talking, but I'm not a very open person as far as my feelings are concerned. I value my privacy. I also think too much, and always have.

I value people and have a very strong sense of justice. I am a good natured and compassionate person, but I am also very business minded and enterprising. I have to have time to just relax and do nothing though, too.

Oh yeah, that's really xNFp. I was thinking more of ENTj/INTp.

Yes, but INFPs don't always open up their feelings and they value their privacy. She seemed to have the feel that she is very socially capable, yet likes some alone time and only turns on the social part when she wants to. Here, look at this:

I am usually:
not afraid of doing the wrong thing, intuition often late, people loving, could be feeling prefers unpredictable to organized, P not apprehensive about new encounters, likes philosophical discussions, N not easily annoyed, most likely F and I depending on what she is talking about enjoys danger, comfortable in unfamiliar situations, very curious, not embarrassed easily, FEELING adventurous, flexible, ready to act on the spot, more P... not a bad loser, most likely F thrill seeker, not easily discouraged, optimistic, laid back, open to new experience, slow to judge others, socially skilled, could be F easily talked into doing silly things, probably F again willing to take risks, adjusts easily,P, again passionate about causes, willing to explain things twice, spontaneous, relaxed, believes in universal harmony, eager to soothe hurt feelings, feeling fearless

I am only sometimes:
life of the party, not bothered by disorder, level emotions, not afraid to draw attention to self, worry free, not a perfectionist, anxiety free, always joking, easy to satisfy, outgoing, rarely prepared, disorganized
^^ only sometimes as in she can be the life of the party or draw attention to herself or be outgoing, BUT NOT ALWAYS. IxFx most likely.

I am NOT (or rarely):
easy to get to know, likes crowds, thinks fun is the most important think in life, not very private, narcissistic, trusting
^^ again sounds IxFx unless I misunderstood what she was trying to say here.

[Joy]

Idealist (NF)
Conscientious
Sensitive
Vigilant
Dramatic

Rationalist (NT)
Aggressive
Idiosyncratic
Inventive
Solitary

Traditionalist (SJ)
Leisurely
Serious
Self-Sacrificing
Devoted

Hedonist (SP)
Self-Confident
Adventurous
Mercurial
Artistic


The reason I like the "basic passions" test and the way it's broken down is because it's the only personity typing system that has ever given me any results (other than the "N"). My preferences seem too evenly divided on other tests. I will check out that website and that test, though. According to my temperament and my basic passions, I'm primarily an NT. Check this out, it's interesting!

One of the types that's not listed in my book that I took the test of the basic passions in is Inventive, which I think sounds a lot like me.

[Joy]

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/beta3test...769517378.html

[Angel von Himmel]

By attribute you got ENTp

By function you got the highest on ENFj/INFp ...

[Cone]

ENTp sounds like a worthy compromise.

rmcnew, how in the world do you make sense of the results? How can you have all functions as strong and some also weak?

[Angel von Himmel]

One thing I have noticed about the results on the socionics typology test, is that sometimes ENTps/ESTps/ISTps/INTps can actually come out with feeling as a strength when it is really their weakness. It has something to do with their own hidden agenda making them unconsciously think they are feeling types when they are trying to conceal weakness.

So, I can not really say that the results contradict ENTp ... you might actually be an ENFj or an INFp, but I think you should take some time out and consider all of the type options for a while. I never really ment for the test to be anything conclusive, just an analysis that people can look over and a tool to help determine type.

[Angel von Himmel]

ENTp sounds like a worthy compromise.

rmcnew, how in the world do you make sense of the results? How can you have all functions as strong and some also weak?

Cone, it does not do the functions justice to try to restrain them to a point of logic. People can have manifest behaviours that indicate both weak and strong tendencies in a function, just because a function is primarily strong or primarily weak does not mean it is perfectly strong or week. Nothing is perfect.

[Cone]

That still doesn't help me...

[Angel von Himmel]

That still doesn't help me...

It helps to look at this chart ... I use to have it in the results, but I took it out.

[Angel von Himmel]

Perhaps I am being vague and abstract ... ENTps are like that sometimes.

The Role function and the PoLR function is considered weak in the test results.

[Angel von Himmel]

Joy, which one of these descriptions to you relate to the most?

http://socion.info/ENTP.html
http://socion.info/ENFP.html
http://socion.info/INTP.html
http://socion.info/INFP.html

And by relate, I mean general characteristic traits described and also the way it was described by the authors. Every one of these descriptions were written by someone of their own type and are conveyed from an identical relationship viewpoint, so one of these should fit you and also be conveyed in a way that seems somewhat like-minded.

[Joy]

Well, I read the ENFJ description, and I know I'm not that. There are other types that sound a bit like me, but not more than the ENTP. Strange that I first thought I was an INFJ. I had decided that at the end of a VERY difficult year. Do people act and feel totally opposite from most of the dimensions of their type when they are under extreme stress?

There were many sentences in the description of the ENTP that are soooooo true of me. I'll try to pick out a few:

ENTps have an exceptionally hard time displaying positive emotions towards others.

ENTps are fiercely independent and strong-willed as children and as adults; many parents can testify to the difficulties in raising them. They are rebels, constantly challenging the norm and seeking out alternative means of action. When young, they could be restless in school and considered defiant and problematic, and if not that, they could be flagged with various learning abilities such as ADD, Asbergers, or even considered autistic. Because of this, ENTps could form a false inferiority complex. But in reality, ENTps possess a rare divergent learning ability that has not been favored well by many systems of schooling, the ability to link concepts asymmetrically to other concepts using objects and systems that are similar in concept, yet totally different. In this aspect, ENTps have been gifted with a form of intelligence like no other. (I have ADD!)

Even as adults, ENTps can have little understanding of the limits of public, personal, and private space, and can irritate others with the way they habitually manage common everyday matters. They can have limited ability to comprehend the amount of time to complete task, and can be generally irresponsible or late on occasion. They can also be very messy, and have a hard time taking care of themselves. They can become so distracted with every day matters, that they lose track of their health. An ENTp may appear to be in a hurry when he or she is not.

ENTps do not readily follow social norms. They do not like to have their independence threatened by unnecessary rules, and they can appear expedient and out-of-place in a society that values any various forms of unnecessary subjugation. While ENTps may have a healthy respect for rules when they are necessary as a guideline or are necessary and good for the well being of people, they do not readily tolerate intentional subjugation to any type of rule or method that they consider to be out-dated or harmful to the well-being of individuals. ENTps tend to look down on people who do so, considering them to be childish and lacking of confidence. (Although I don't necessarily look down on them. I feel frustrated with them and maybe feel sympathy toward them.)

ENTps are the intuitive protectors of society. They do not want to see people being exploited out of ignorance or to see the unmerciful destruction of individuals for the gain of a chosen few. ENTps want everyone to be strong, independent, and able to stand on their own. They can use their intuitive understanding of situations and their ability to see the internal workings beyond smoke and mirrors, and to warn of danger. (I do try to inspire people to empower themselves!)

Another cause of strife could result by the way in which an ENTp naturally realizes and relays information. If an ENTp fails to absorb all necessary hints and clues about his or her surroundings during a signifigantly potential or important event, his or her mind could unintentionally distort that information, causing the ENTp to perceive and relay information to others that may not have a complete bearing on reality. However, this is totally natural for an ENTp; their minds can play connect the dots. If a dot is missing, their subconscious fills it for them without telling. However, they tend to often be right more than they are wrong. (But I am pretty careful to know what I am saying for cetain or use the words "I think...")

ENTps are actually pretty positive people, who enjoy life greatly. Unless circumstances prove it necessary, they rarely find reason to think negatively about people. They seek to accept and to understand people for who they are inside. They do not like to condemn people for their personhood, and they can often be sought out by others for matter of practical solutions to common every day problems. People typically have respect for the intuitive understanding of ENTps towards them and appreciate their loyalty in personal matters. It is not like an ENTp to betray a friend in need.



There is a part that states:
ENTps tend to be unbiased, non-judgmental people, but very thought driven and intense while speaking. It is very common for an ENTp to often pause while speaking, appearing as though he or she is contemplating a response. If an ENTp ever begins speaking loudly, while waving his or her hands excitedly towards anyone, there is a very good chance that he or she likes that person and may want to get to know him or her. However, most people may not understand this unique ENTp social que, and instead might consider this a little odd and showboatish. The ENTp could also be sporadic in approaching people they have just met or getting to know. This occurs since ENTps have an exceptionally hard time displaying positive emotions towards others, and may not always know the best way to approach someone they do not feel they can readily relate to. Most tend to only be able to form relationships with like-minded people who can understand their logic or who can sympathize with them in some way.

ENTps can have a very difficult time making friends; most ENTps have a tendency to be a tad self-absorbed, and can unintentionally appear standoffish or reserved to people. Some of them may not have very many friends or a few close friends. Because of this, they may sometimes give off the impression that they do not like anyone at all. This is really not true. ENTps love people and yearn to seek closeness to others, but they normally do not have the developed social skills to allow them to do so. Because of this, ENTps need to receive positive emotions more than any other personality type, and often use their intuitive logic to concoct clever social schemes to gain required social attention. Most ENTps tend to not marry until their 30s, if at all.

This is really not all that true of me. (I'm 24 and I have been married twice lol) I do have had a difficult time making friends. I tend to not put forth the effort to build and maintain friendships. I've had some really close friends, but I sorta lost touch with a lot of them, and some of them turned out to be insane.

But for the most part, I've hung out with my brother and sister's and spouses' friends. I don't have to maintain the friendship. Some one else does that. I just use them for companionship. I sometimes even end up closer to these friends than what my family is, but I still consider them to be the other person's friend.

I do have good social skills. I am quite charismatic. I have been told that I have an honest face, and I have genuine confidence, which rubs off on to other people (as genuine confidence should). People like themselves when they're around me. (I used to use this talent the opposite way. If I was unhappy with some one I could influence them to feel bad about themselves without them realizing I was doing it... But I have realized that this ability gives me somewhat of a responsibility to those around me.)

I can get most people to like me with a grin. And the ones that don't like me go on my list of people "to work on". They generally end up liking me even more. But in spite of how this sounds, I do not do this to be popular or well-liked. I do it because it just makes things easier on everyone. Most of the time when some one doesn't like me it is because of a mistunderstanding or an insecurity of theirs. I don't see any reason to allow such a thing when I can easily resolve the situation and balance the issue. Anyways, it's about a harmonious environment, not building my sense of self worth off of people liking me.

Anyway, even though I also have a lot characteristics of a few other types, I really think that I am an ENTP. Thanks everyone!

[Angel von Himmel]

Interesting, you know when I authored that description, I based it entirely on myself and one other ENTp who acts the exact same way that I do ...

And no, it is not strange that you thought you were INFj, I use to think I was XNFj once as well. However, it is caused from having a strong for a hidden agenda that might make you think that you are your beneficiary[ENFj in the case of an ENTp] ...

And I bet you use to think you were an introvert because you did not have many friends and were sporatic in approaching people or something. I use to think the same untill I discovered I was ENTp.

And you probably do not have the fictional ADD BS that the idiotic ISTj school system tells kids to make them feel bad for the fact that they are divergent thinkers, more than likely that is just your ENTp absentmindedness kicking in. Do not worry, it is a normal thing and is totally natural. Consider yourself gifted.

So, I guess that means you are a fellow ENTp!

[Joy]

I thought I was an "I" because I do usually have quite a bit going on in my head. Ten thought processes at once. I'm probably more balanced between the two than most are. Although I didn't have many good friends, I was always aware that I could if I would just put forth the effort. I'm not lacking in social skills.

At this point I sometimes think I avoid having friends because I've been hurt too many times, and I've had friends who were hurt, too. I've just learned that firendships are more trouble than they're worth. Overall I think perhaps I am just a bit too self-absorbed to maintain friendships with most people. Those who I consider to be good friends are friends that I only talk to every six months or so for the most part. They don't get upset when I don't call for a long time or even when I don't return their calls. They do it, too. lol

As for the ADD... I'm not one who will be convinced that ADD is a myth. My life changed dramatically with medication and I wish I would have been treated thoughout my school years and as a young adult. I wouldn't have gotten into nearly as much trouble (though I wouldn't have my son, either. No regrets, just lessons...). I'm actually a frequent poster at an ADD forum. I talk to a lot of people with ADD, and I know a lot of people with ADD IRL as well. Those who do not take medication (and some of those who do) self medicate.

Self-medication is someting that not too many people understand. It just means that we unconsciously use unhealthy means of balancing out our brain chemistry (generally low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine for those with ADD). Perfect ADD examples of self-medication include oppositional behavior, thrill-seeking behavior, job hopping, frequent career changes, creating drama in our lives, being an "infatuation junkie", relationship hopping, self-mutilation, smoking, using drugs (including the worst drug of all: alcohol), inappropriate sexual activity, gambling, fighting, shoplifting, being a wanderer (frequently moving, possibly to other parts of the country or world), and the list goes on and on... I have had problems in the past with most of what's listed here. It got to the point where I had given up any faith in my decision making abilities. As the learned helplessness began to take hold of me, I decided that there had to be a better way for me to live and sought treatment.

So let me ask you...

I tend to go way overboard working at accomplishing my goals and then end up being depressed and sometimes ill for months after I see progress. It always seems like it's two steps forward, one step back. Is this an ENTP thing? I am doing well in my goals (I'm in the beginning phases, but things are going very well!). The ultimate point of all of the goals is to establish a large passive income, and I am just meeting the beginning goals which are steps to that. As far as finances are concerned, my point of view and attitudes put me far ahead of most people. Even at the beginning I think I'm ahead for my age, and I'm headed up fast. lol, is this the lofty goals thing I was reading about?

[Angel von Himmel]

I thought I was an "I" because I do usually have quite a bit going on in my head. Ten thought processes at once. I'm probably more balanced between the two than most are. Although I didn't have many good friends, I was always aware that I could if I would just put forth the effort. I'm not lacking in social skills.

Hmmm, I have known other ENTps who were grossly lacking in social skills; even my social skills are not the best. I suppose that maybe it is possible for an ENTp to develope social skills if one tried. I do not think that good social skills are things that come naturally for an ENTp, though. It has to be aquired.

At this point I sometimes think I avoid having friends because I've been hurt too many times, and I've had friends who were hurt, too. I've just learned that firendships are more trouble than they're worth. Overall I think perhaps I am just a bit too self-absorbed to maintain friendships with most people. Those who I consider to be good friends are friends that I only talk to every six months or so for the most part. They don't get upset when I don't call for a long time or even when I don't return their calls. They do it, too. lol

WOAH! I am the same exact way ... nearly all of my close friends are people I have known for years, and I have gone months and years without speaking to them, and we still contact each other now and again.

And I agree about avoiding people because of being hurt. I feel the same way about friendships. If you get to close to someone who does not have alot of similarities to you or alot in common, you are probably going to get hurt somehow.

As for the ADD... I'm not one who will be convinced that ADD is a myth. My life changed dramatically with medication and I wish I would have been treated thoughout my school years and as a young adult. I wouldn't have gotten into nearly as much trouble (though I wouldn't have my son, either. No regrets, just lessons...). I'm actually a frequent poster at an ADD forum. I talk to a lot of people with ADD, and I know a lot of people with ADD IRL as well. Those who do not take medication (and some of those who do) self medicate.

I agree that drugs give you the illusion that they are helping, but many of these drugs are really just unnaturally altering the brain chemistry in a way that could have negitive effects later in life. I use to take medication, but then I started to see some odd side-effects and quit taking them. I think it is better to just learn coping strategies and how to work with what I got then to subjugate myself to some pill or worse.

And you are right about self-medication, usually people do that with alcohol. Personally, I will never touch the trash and I think anyone who does is foolish. Some people do that because they think it makes them sociable, but it really turns people into socially dysfunctional slobs.

Self-medication is someting that not too many people understand. It just means that we unconsciously use unhealthy means of balancing out our brain chemistry (generally low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine for those with ADD). Perfect ADD examples of self-medication include oppositional behavior, thrill-seeking behavior, job hopping, frequent career changes, creating drama in our lives, being an "infatuation junkie", relationship hopping, self-mutilation, smoking, using drugs (including the worst drug of all: alcohol), inappropriate sexual activity, gambling, fighting, shoplifting, being a wanderer (frequently moving, possibly to other parts of the country or world), and the list goes on and on... I have had problems in the past with most of what's listed here. It got to the point where I had given up any faith in my decision making abilities. As the learned helplessness began to take hold of me, I decided that there had to be a better way for me to live and sought treatment.

Why not just learn how to be mentally healthy? I fixed all of those problems by just coming to the realization and awareness of my behaviour and how I was affecting other people.

Can a pill do that? Those are just subjugative quick fixes that have no real life changes, and only serve to replace one subjugation for another.

I use to have alot of problems that you described, but I do not anymore.
Subjugation is a worthless approach.

So let me ask you...

I tend to go way overboard working at accomplishing my goals and then end up being depressed and sometimes ill for months after I see progress. It always seems like it's two steps forward, one step back. Is this an ENTP thing? I am doing well in my goals (I'm in the beginning phases, but things are going very well!). The ultimate point of all of the goals is to establish a large passive income, and I am just meeting the beginning goals which are steps to that. As far as finances are concerned, my point of view and attitudes put me far ahead of most people. Even at the beginning I think I'm ahead for my age, and I'm headed up fast. lol, is this the lofty goals thing I was reading about?

Yes, that is totally an ENTp thing ... ENTps tend to get really far ahead and slip back and forth in cycles. Even I have done what you described.

[Joy]

I'm glad to hear that the tendency to overdo it is my personality. As long as I end up ahead and I don't do too much damage during the downs, it's all good.

As far as the medication issue... No, meds don't do anything on their own. What they do is allow us to change ourselves. Not that we couldn't without them. I must say though that no amount of wanting or trying ever changed anything for me. It wasn't the Wellbutrin or Concerta that made improvements, it was me, but I just had too many emotional and ADD issues to deal with to be successful without meds. I honestly don't think I could have, with any amount of behavioral modification, supplementation, exercize, diet, meditation, or biofeedback obtained the results that I have obtained if I had not taken at least the Wellbutrin. As evidence of what kind of a difference the Wellbutrin made, check out my basic passions before and after medication results that I posted in this thread.

I have had some bad experiences with meds, too though. I lost a job, locked myself in my house, and nearly lost my house because of a combination of Adderall and an unhealthy lifestyle. I'm the first person to point out the dangers of brain meds, but I'm also quite the advocate of them as well. I'm very happy for you that were able to find a non-med route to success. I wish that it was possible for everyone to do the same, but such is certainly not the case.

As far as the will power to fight brain chemistry imbalances to the point where self-medication is not a problem... wow. I mean, I've done some of that, but not without a great deal of effort and patience. The problem is that most people cannot recognize brain chemistry problems for what they are. They just find themselves drawn to destructive behaviors that stimulate certain parts of their brains. If they were able to use will power to avoid gambling or shoplifting, they may instead end up having an affair or causing drama in there lives or moving every six months or... well, you get the idea... The words dopamine and norepinephrine never cross their mind.

So now I'm really curios about this type. Would you say we're one of the most ambitious types? And I would really like to understand the hidden agenda thing. I'm quite fascinated to learn that I do indeed have a type, even if my preferences (or whatever they're called) aren't incredibly strong. I believe this is an advantage for me though. I like being able to slip into an INFJ, ENFP, INTJ, or other role when I an so inclined.

[Angel von Himmel]

I am not really sure if ambition is related to type ... I think any type can be ambitious. Maybe one type can be more ambitious than another type, I am not totally sure.

-----------------------------------------------------
Well, the ENTps hidden agenda is what caused you to think that you were a feeling type; the same exact thing happened to me before it became totally clear I was really an ENTp. I kept doubting my type and kept think I could be something XNFX ...

This results from the fact that an ENTp has very weak for a POLR [point of least resistance] function ... what that means is that this is a function someone has to exert energy to constantly safeguard and to avoid having harm resulting from use of that function.

Because ENTps have as their PoLR, they are very weak in the function and may have a hard time expressing positive emotions towards others and can unintentionally make people think that they are not liked or appreciated.

In ENTps, the PoLR is protected though using as their hidden agenda. Often times, this will be projected with sporatic interest and attempts by the ENTp to draw the interest of other people to them. This is often an unconscious attempt to distract people from their weak PoLR and to conceal it from view.

Functionally, this may actually cause the ENTp to somehow think that he or she has as a strength, when it might only just be a little bit stronger than their . But, it is usually enough to comfort an ENTp and make them think that their weak is safe from harm.

Hence, an ENTp may think that his or her foundation is when it is really ...

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By the way, ENTp females are very very rare ... I have only personally met one girl in my lifetime in which I was 100% sure is an ENTp. I know that there are atleast two other ENTp females who have posted in this forum [bingbing and forest-dragon] ...

[Angel von Himmel]

I have had some bad experiences with meds, too though. I lost a job, locked myself in my house, and nearly lost my house because of a combination of Adderall and an unhealthy lifestyle. I'm the first person to point out the dangers of brain meds, but I'm also quite the advocate of them as well. I'm very happy for you that were able to find a non-med route to success. I wish that it was possible for everyone to do the same, but such is certainly not the case.

Same thing happened to me, which was why I stopped taking medication ... I figured after that that I should devote my life to being the healthiest mentally that I could possibly be, which means no abusive behaviours towards myself or anyone. Everyday I succeed more and more in my goals.

I have tried to find people who are also as intersted in being healthy, but people like that are rare. Other ENTps might be I would assume.

[Joy]

Thank you, the whole POLR and hidden agenda thing makes total sense to me now. It's strange how relieved I feel at knowing my type. I don't know why. lol

Another thing that I forgot to mention about my social skills are that when I say that I have social skills, I mean that I am very good at relating to people and winning them over, but not at building friendships. I have a history of becoming really close friends with a person too quickly. Boundaries have never been something I've understood particularly well. Now I tend to shy from that invisible boundary rather than risk shooting right over it like I have in the past. I purposley keep a distance between myself and those around me (aside from family and existing friends).

I have never gotten along as well with people my age as people who are older or younger. I remember as a little kid at a sleep over I found myself wandering away from the other little girls to go sit at the kitchen table and talk to the Birthday girl's parents for a while. It's always been like that for me. Even the people I've dated have fo rthe most part always been a little bit older or younger than me. Usually 3 to 5 years in a sufficient gap, but I get along with 9 or 50 year olds as well as I do 21 or 28 year olds (often much better). I always thought that this was because I was homeschooled for several years when I was young and didn't have any kids my age to play with anywhere during those years. It makes sense to me now that perhaps it's more of a personality thing. Sometimes I think I am afraid to try to relate to people my age because it might work!

On the drug front, I hope that I will eventually stop taking medication as well. Medication is not intended to be permanent. It's intended to teach us how to make our brains work properly. For some people, anytime they stop taking their meds they end up in trouble. I don't know if I am one who can eventually stop my medications or not. I do know that I am not even going to try until my passive income is secure and I am not in the middle of any critical projects. I will need to put all of my efforts on living a balanced lifestyle for probably six months to a year, and that just can't happen anytime soon. I have too many big things going on... like you know, work and what not.

I also want to add that I believe that too many people are trying to fit a square peg into a round whole in their lives. I, for example, used to work jobs that did not suit me. I even got a certification in medical coding! OMG, if I had attempted to hold down on office job like that... I don't even want to think about what would happen! This is because I have a need for a certain amount of adventure in my day. It's essential for me to have that or I will be unbalanced. My career is PERFECT for me. I get to talk to different people all day long about my favorite subject: houses! I also get to walk on roofs (which is the high point of my day, no pun intended ), duck walk on the joists in attics, and army crawl through small spaces. It's great! And when spaces aren't easily accessible... I love a good challange!

I also believe that yoga, tai chi, martial arts (I will be practicing Aikido once I can afford to in another few months), etc are excellent ways to find balance.

[Angel von Himmel]

You are definatelly an identical relation, I relate to everything you just said 100%!

[Angel von Himmel]

Thank you, the whole POLR and hidden agenda thing makes total sense to me now. It's strange how relieved I feel at knowing my type. I don't know why. lol

It should, being an identical relation we are able to explain anything to each other with 100% comprehension. I probably would have had to reexplain in a diffrent way to someone else of a different type. You understood exactly what I ment with only a limited understanding of socionics, amazing ... it took me months to piece all that together.

Another thing that I forgot to mention about my social skills are that when I say that I have social skills, I mean that I am very good at relating to people and winning them over, but not at building friendships.

I do the same thing, that is a key ENTp trait ... we can influence people big time, but any sort of closeness or relationship intimacy is always a problem.

I have a history of becoming really close friends with a person too quickly. Boundaries have never been something I've understood particularly well. Now I tend to shy from that invisible boundary rather than risk shooting right over it like I have in the past. I purposley keep a distance between myself and those around me (aside from family and existing friends).

Me too! I remember getting way too close to people when I was a kid, and it always caused me to get hurt. Then, I learned to be caucious and shy away from people. I relate totally to that.

I have never gotten along as well with people my age as people who are older or younger. I remember as a little kid at a sleep over I found myself wandering away from the other little girls to go sit at the kitchen table and talk to the Birthday girl's parents for a while. It's always been like that for me.

Same exact thing happened to me!

When I was younger, at school during PE I would wonder away from the field and not play whatever sport they were playing. The other kids use to tease me and say I was in lala land because I would always wonder off when I was suppose to be playing sports with them.

And I have always related to npeople older or younger than myself!
People my own age I tended to not relate much to or I avoided!

Even the people I've dated have fo rthe most part always been a little bit older or younger than me. Usually 3 to 5 years in a sufficient gap, but I get along with 9 or 50 year olds as well as I do 21 or 28 year olds (often much better). I always thought that this was because I was homeschooled for several years when I was young and didn't have any kids my age to play with anywhere during those years. It makes sense to me now that perhaps it's more of a personality thing. Sometimes I think I am afraid to try to relate to people my age because it might work!

Yes! It is a total type thing ... I have the same exact things happening with me!

On the drug front, I hope that I will eventually stop taking medication as well. Medication is not intended to be permanent. It's intended to teach us how to make our brains work properly. For some people, anytime they stop taking their meds they end up in trouble. I don't know if I am one who can eventually stop my medications or not. I do know that I am not even going to try until my passive income is secure and I am not in the middle of any critical projects. I will need to put all of my efforts on living a balanced lifestyle for probably six months to a year, and that just can't happen anytime soon. I have too many big things going on... like you know, work and what not.

Same, except I am not taking meds at the moment!

I also want to add that I believe that too many people are trying to fit a square peg into a round whole in their lives. I, for example, used to work jobs that did not suit me. I even got a certification in medical coding! OMG, if I had attempted to hold down on office job like that... I don't even want to think about what would happen! This is because I have a need for a certain amount of adventure in my day. It's essential for me to have that or I will be unbalanced. My career is PERFECT for me. I get to talk to different people all day long about my favorite subject: houses! I also get to walk on roofs (which is the high point of my day, no pun intended ), duck walk on the joists in attics, and army crawl through small spaces. It's great! And when spaces aren't easily accessible... I love a good challange!

YES! That is the reason why I am studying to become an EMT and soon paramedic ... I like jobs that have a mixture of relaxing and then adventure. I relate to this totally.

I also believe that yoga, tai chi, martial arts (I will be practicing Aikido once I can afford to in another few months), etc are excellent ways to find balance.

Maybe, if you are talking about ying/yang ... the whole universe is put together that way.

[Joy]

Balance... what do I mean by balance... Well, I could write for hours about it, but instead I'm just going to copy and paste something I wrote for my ADD forum. I wrote it towards the end of a very bad year, complete with illness. I was quite unwell in many ways at the time, fighting for improvement with all of my strength. I don't have time to read it again right now, so I'm just going to post it as is and hope that I haven't changed my point of veiw on the main topics of it since I've been feeling better. Well, I'm off to work. Enjoy.

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I’ve posted in several threads that I think that the universe and all aspects of it are a series of equations which and make up one big equation.

Everything is designed to be in perfect balance, as equations must be. We struggle in our lives and with our every aspect of health when things aren’t properly balanced. It is the nature of the universe that we struggle to find a way to balance the equations that make up our existence. We stay in a state of struggle of some form until a balance is reached. Because the universe has such an immensely complex and ever changing state, we must re-balance the equations that make up our existence, a never ending process.

It is much easier to balance when you know how to recognize sources of imbalance and know how to restore the balance.

Because our bodies are designed to heal themselves, it is possible to find balance in our physical and psychiatric health through providing our bodies with the things it needs to function as intended, such as nutrients and possibly medication. Our bodies and minds are incredible things with excellent resilience if we only give them what they need. The books The Diet Cure and The Mood Cure by Julia Ross, M.A. are excellent maps of what our bodies need. They teach specific strategies to improve and balance every aspect of our physical health and targets specific issues based on the individual. The book is not simply a diet plan, it is more a of supplementation plan. Her clinics have successfully treated addictions, eating disorders, mood and other psychiatric disorders, alcoholism, and ill health in general. I very, very highly recommend these books! Don’t continue to introduce chemicals to your body (which work quickly and thoroughly to destroy the balances in many body systems) until you try to find a supplementation cure. Remember, our bodies are designed to fix themselves. We just need to give them what they need to restore balance.

As I’ve mentioned, in dealing with psychiatric and physiological struggles, we must understand that are bodies are designed to be healthy and to heal themselves. We must be aware of what our bodies need, and the best two ways to do that are meditation and Yoga (or another similar activity, such as Tai Chi). Stretching feels good because our bodies are trying to tell us that it needs to be stretched! My mother in law has been practicing Yoga since childhood and she has a better body than most women 30 years younger than her!

Meditation is important in order to re-center ourselves and maintain a balanced perspective in general. It gives our bodies and brains a chance to reset any negative thought patterns and works wonders in finding balance. Also, because the mind is programmable, it is also reprogram able. A meditative state is ideal for learning new and healthy self concepts. Life is self-fulfilling prophecy. This is why fortune favors the bold, bad things continually happens to negative people, and the people you come in contact with rarely disappoint your expectations of them. There are a thousand quotes I could put here, but I don’t want to get carried away… Also, I do not consider prayer to be the same as meditation, however I do feel that prayer is extremely important.

Yoga and similar arts are wonderful because they teach us to be very aware of our bodies, our breathing, and the energy which flows around and through us. I am also a believer in Feng Shui, the study of the flow of energy in it’s environment. My mother in law is also a life long student of Feng Shui, and she has made a believer out of me. She lives in a small apartment, but when you walk into her home you are greeted with an atmosphere that I have only experienced in unadulterated nature. Balancing the flow of energy is crucial in balancing our lives. Much of Feng Shui is common sense, like not sitting with your back to a door, but the all of the concepts of Feng Shui are too complex to understand in their entirety with out years and years of study. For most of us, reading a simple book with most practical rules of Feng Shui and putting them to practice will work wonders in finding our balance in every aspect of our lives.

There are two things I would like to stress about physical health. Number one, drink plenty of water! I read that 90% of Americans are chronically dehydrated, and I believe it. Being dehydrated affects the body’s cells and processes, such as cleansing, and WILL make us feel terrible in direct proportion to the degree of dehydration. Many people overeat because they are accustomed to getting most of their water from the foods they eat. As a result, they mistake thirst for hunger.

Here is formula to figure out how much water to drink. Take your body weight in lbs and divide it by two and drink that many oz of water each day. PLEASE NOTE: Drink only purified water. Don’t assume that bottled water is purified. I know Auqafina is, and I’m sure there are others, but distilled and reverse osmosis purified water can be purchased in larger quantities. There are also whole house purifiers that can be purchased which dramatically improve skin and hair health as well as internal health. PLEASE never drink city water!!! Cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of death in America, yet they continue to contaminate our water with chlorine and fluoride, two potent cardiovascular poisons. It almost seems like population control!

The second thing I was going to mention is about nutritional supplements. Anytime there is a liquid form available, buy that. This will require going to health food stores (not GNC). Nutrients obtained from plant sources are most usable to our bodies. Capsules and soft gels are the next best things when nutritional supplements are not available in liquid form. Try to stay away from tablets! And do not believe the pharmaceutical propaganda that doctors and pharmacists are taught, which is that chemical vitamins and minerals are a good solution to supplementation. Chemical nutrients are nearly useless to our bodies.

In relationships, one of the balances we required to maintain is that of our individual wellness which exists in direct proportion the relationship’s wellness. Almost all relationship issues are the product of insecurity. You can only be in a relationship that is as secure as you are. If you are insecure, no relationship will provide security. Likewise, if you cannot be happy on your own, you will not be happy in any relationship. Humans are designed to thrive in an exclusive, accepting, physical, considerate, healthy, trusting, and growing relationship. The dynamics of a relationship allow for rapid personal growth if the relationship is balanced. Ideally, spouses balance each other and are companions and team mates in life. In order for any relationship to grow through the years, both individuals must grow personally.

I’d like to point out in closing that spiritual health is essential to personal well being. Seek out the truth with a completely open mind and you will find it. Forget about yourself in your search and focus instead on universal concepts. Widen your perspective as far beyond yourself as you can stretch. Continually strive for enlightenment. The universe and all aspects of it are a series of equations which and make up one big equation. I believe that God is the one who wrote the equation.

Well, I covered a lot of subjects here, but I truly believe that just about every struggle we face in ADD and our health in general can be eliminated through seeking holistic wellness. Wellness in any aspect is a journey, so do not be discouraged if you feel unwell at the present time. Just do what you need to in order to find balance. Balancing the equations that make up our existence is a continual journey, so all that really matters is the direction you’re headed! Remember that wellness is not something that we create, but rather something natural that we allow.

Please give me your comments!

[implied]

as;dflkj

[Joy]

Well... I appreciate the support, but it sounds like you're singing the "ADD is really just a personality style" tune, too. While absentmendedness and other traits of ADD can indeed be a person's personality, chronically low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine is not a personality, it is a health problem.

I could live with the inattentiveness, messiness, short attention span, and even my problem with having absolutely no concept of time if I didn't also have that damned restlessness. It's that restlessness that caused all sorts of problems for me. That's where the self medication comes in. I used to stir up all kinds of drama in my restless anxiety. Another big part of avoiding that restlessness is getting proper intellectual stimulation!

I want to urge you to consider lowering your dosage or switching meds. There are all kinds of meds that help ADD, so if you feel like you're somewhat of a zombie on what you're taking, try something else! If you feel comfortable posting which medication you're on, I may be able to provide some information.


On the subject of that post about balance... I read it again, and it's not really what I had in mind. I'll write more about my philosophy about balance in a bit.

[Joy]

I registered.

[implied]

as;dflkj

[Joy]

Adderall... the lazy brain doc's drug of choice. Did you read the thread that's linked to "a very bad year"? It's all about Adderall...

The reason that I call Adderall the lazy brain doc's grug of choice is because it's made up of several different medications combined. Dexedrine and Ritalin are two of them. I'm not sure if the others are available by themselves or if they're only in Adderall.

Regardless, it's the one size fits all ADD med. The problem is that every brain is different. Yeah, chances are that one of the medications in Adderall will stimulate the part of the brain that needs to be stimulated, but what about the parts that are being stimulated that didn't need to be? Too many people experience both mental and physical side effects on Adderall. It's great for some people with ADD, but for most, it's just too much.

On Adderall I became a paranoid, OCD agoraphobic. And I didn't even realize that it was the Adderall until my physical health declined to the point where I no longer had any energy. I remember the day that I had two hours of energy after a couple months of none at all. I was so happy that day! Now, obviously mine was an extreme case... I'm not saying that Adderall is the Devil, only that it's over-prescribed.

I currently take Concerta, which is a form of Ritalin. I've also taken Strattera and I was on Adderall for a year. I talk to many people about ADD and ADD meds, and they have all had different results from different meds. A good friend of mine is on Dexedrine, and I know that Focalin and Provigil are getting some positive attention. There are also other less traditional medications. Chances are, one of them is right for you, or at least a much better fit than Adderall.

Do you know what type of ADD you have? At this point I'm going to direct you to an ADD forum that I am a frequent poster in. It's at http://amenclinics.com/forums/index.php?board=3.0. There's a link in the blue box at the top on the screen to a couple of online tests. With your results you'll get some good information about the specific area of your brain where there is too much/not enough activity. I highly recommend checking it out.

[Joy]

Okay, I just want to make sure I have this right...

My POLR, or the thing I have a tendency to have a weakness in, is introverted feeling. This means that I am not good at expressing what people mean to me or anything else positive.

My hidden agenda is then extroverted feeling. My hidden agenda tries to compensate for my POLR. This means I attempt to show people what they mean to me since I'm not good at telling them. I use humanitarianism acts of goodwill in this way as well.

In other words, I use the "actions speak louder than words" approach to dealing with people because I am more comfortable using extroverted feeling than I am allowing my introverted feeling to have it's way by not showing people any positive emotion or appreciation at all.

Because acting on my hidden agenda requires effort, it seems at times that it is a bigger part of my personality than it actually is, thus making it appear at times that I am an NF....

Am I on track?

[Angel von Himmel]

More or less, that is how it works ... acts of good will could very well be considered under if it is intended to draw other peoples attention and emotions towards self in some way. is moreso a persons ability to actually express love, affection, position origionating from self to another.

[internal to external] is self-directed emotion towards others
[external to internal] is emotion directed towards self origionating externally from others

[implied]

as;dflkj

[Angel von Himmel]

I ran into this a while back ...

http://borntoexplore.org/tempquotes.htm

[Joy]

ENTP Children are energetic, creative, adventurous and fun. But they can be exhausting to have around, both physically and intellectually...They are often squirmy, active babies who quickly become busy little monkeys, ready to climb on or off anything, and are eager to try to do things for themselves...When they're awake they seek constant interaction and engagement. They may talk so much, and so loudly, that it can sometimes feel like just too much of a good thing...Their minds work so quickly that being asked or forced to wait their turn to speak often makes them forget what they were going to say. This can make them very frustrated, angry, and tearful...ENTPs usually need to be moving, running, climbing, and jumping at all times...A rainy day can be a nightmare for parents and ENTPs who live in more rural places...In addition to their inquisitiveness, ENTPs are also very strong-willed and independent children....

"Since ENTPs have little or no naturally imbedded sense of time or order, they may have trouble understanding your need to keep their rooms tidy or to get someplace on time...As most ENTPs get older and busier, it becomes increasingly difficult for them to establish and stick to priorities...Even late in high school, when grades really do matter and decisions will be affected by poor marks, many ENTPs seem unconcerned. They often have a remarkable ability to wait until the very last minute to start and finish projects or reports and still manage to get decent grades...

"It may be necessary at times to ignore the disapproving looks and comments from a society that views these strong and outspoken children as outrageous and undisciplined. Standing firmly behind the ENTPs in all their high energy and flamboyance communicates a lasting appreciation for the bright and fresh originals they are.

"At their best, ENTPs are ingenious and capable problem solvers. They have enormous energy to change the world for the better, driven by an innate sense of fairness and an ability to see past the obvious to the novel.

OMG, that's my son!!!! LOL, that's how I was, too. Hehe, today my boss said that I get extra points for bravery. He was refering to the way I was cautiously bold about walking on potential dangerous parts of the roof and wasn't at all afraid to be the first one to walk into the basement, which trust me, could have had ANYTHING in it. That's a big part of why I do what I do! I can see how rescue services would be well suited to an ENTP, too.

Another similarity between myself and my son is that we are both horrible insomniacs. My mind just never stops! Do any of you other ENTPs notice this?

[implied]

as;dflkj

[Joy]

thanks joy! i have checked out a lot of amenclinic stuff... i'm basically hoping to get on concerta or something similar. only problem with ritalin/concerta is that it really did make me a bit ill. i wanted the time-released ritalin, but they gave me the adderall instead. ); bad experiences with strattera, too (i passed out a lot.)

i agree, though, about adderall stimulating parts of the brain that don't need it. i'm mixed type adhd. looks like mostly inattentive.

it does feel like my physical health has declined a lot. i'm so small as it is anyway, i could probably do okay on 5-10 mg adderall. 20 seems like too much. he's actually prescribed me 40 and i have never been able to handle that much (this seems dangerous???)

Hehe, yeah, 40mg is a lot. I'm little too, and my brain doc had my script up to 60mg! But I've been off of Adderall for months now, and I'm finally back up to a size 3.

[Angel von Himmel]

Yeah, the description is also exactly the way that my mother use to tell me I acted even way before I learned about socionics or that I am an ENTp or anything. I bet you and your son are identicals as well!

The fact that my mind is so active is what I like about being an ENTp, constantly linking concepts and things together in my mind , creating new things out of them, and seeing past obstacles.

[Joy]

Me too. You know what drives me crazy though? When people whine about a situation and don't do anyting to change it. It's not so much that I don't want to hear about their problems. It just boggles my mind that people would choose to allow things to stay the way they are when they're so unhappy.

I make suggestions, and they shoot them down. At first the reasons they give sound okay, but as I continue to come up with better ideas based on the new information, it becomes apparent that they don't want things to get better. I guess change is scary for a lot of people, even if it's a change for the better. That I can understand, though. The thing that drives me crazy is that they assume that there's nothing that they can do. They believe they are powerless, and they really, really don't want to hear otherwise. Too many people like to believe that there's nothing they can do about their problems.

Of course, that's not everyone. But there are way too many people like that! Learned helplessness is something that's programed into our minds. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that they can change their programming?