John Wayne

[Krig the Viking]

Upon doing a search of the archives, I see that the prevailing opinion here is that John Wayne is LSE. Up until now, I had been assuming he was an SLE -- having recently watched two of his movies with Maureen O'Hara (McLintock! and The Quiet Man), both movies seemed strongly focused on an Aggressor-Victim romance, where the Se type wins the affection of the Ni type by asserting his dominance (Maureen O'Hara strikes me as EIE).

Digression: Interestingly, I think I would type them as N-SLE and D-EIE in The Quiet Man, and D-SLE and N-EIE in McLintock. But that's just a speculative hypothesis so far.

Anyway, since so many people think the Duke is LSE, I figured I should find out if you're all right and I'm wrong. For those that think John Wayne is LSE, why do you think that, and for bonus points, what type do you think Maureen O'Hara is? And of course, is there anyone out there who has a dissenting opinion on their types?

[xerx]

I used to type him LSE along with Hank Hill (King of the Hill). I've reconsidered both of their typings since then, and lean toward Se ego for both of them. Hank Hill, in particular, might be ESI -- he's inhumanly focused on his duty and relationships with others.

[Krig the Viking]

From the archives, it seems like the main justification given for John Wayne being LSE was that he exemplified a sort of "conservative ethos", which people associated with Delta. I was hoping to see if there was more to it than that, or not.

And yeah, I can see Hank Hill being ESI. It would help explain why I never cared much for that show, yet had an odd respect for Hank.

[Marie84]

To be quite honest I can totally understand the suggestion of SLE from a superficial view, though from what I've read and observed I still think LSE makes the most sense.

The comparison to Hank Hill seems a bit odd to me since, from what I remember from watching the show back in the day, Hill was a rather calm, quiet, unambitious sort of guy, ESI is quite possible for him. Wayne, on the other hand, came across to me as being rather restless and full of balanced energy, pretty much of what I've observed from EJ's, especially Ni PoLR's.
I could make a longer argument for why I think so on another day if you're curious, though my heads working on another project atm and I don't feel that I conjure up enough to make any sense right now either

I would like to address the stereotype of associating Deltas with conservatism, I find it to be an unrealistic tool for typing and sincerely agree that personal values should not be confused with IE values, although I think the way people reveal their personal values is often a reflection of their IE's, though I'll leave that for another discussion

[Trevor]

I'd put my money on LSE anytime.

[Krig the Viking]

To be quite honest I can totally understand the suggestion of SLE from a superficial view, though from what I've read and observed I still think LSE makes the most sense.

The comparison to Hank Hill seems a bit odd to me since, from what I remember from watching the show back in the day, Hill was a rather calm, quiet, unambitious sort of guy, ESI is quite possible for him. Wayne, on the other hand, came across to me as being rather restless and full of balanced energy, pretty much of what I've observed from EJ's, especially Ni PoLR's.
I could make a longer argument for why I think so on another day if you're curious, though my heads working on another project atm and I don't feel that I conjure up enough to make any sense right now either

The big thing I'm wondering, at this point, is what you make of John Wayne's and Maureen O'Hare's characters' relationships in their various movies together. Are these Aggressor/Victim relationships they're playing (as I suspect), making John Wayne an LSE playing an SLE role? Or am I wrong, and these are Caregiver/Infantile relationships being portrayed?

I'm interested in your opinion on these matters. It's rare that we disagree like this.

I would like to address the stereotype of associating Deltas with conservatism, I find it to be an unrealistic tool for typing and sincerely agree that personal values should not be confused with IE values, although I think the way people reveal their personal values is often a reflection of their IE's, though I'll leave that for another discussion

I agree wholeheartedly. Each Quadra has their own "brand" of conservative ethos, just like each Quadra has their own "brand" of progressive ethos. Delta is filled with just as many eco-hippies as rednecks.

Actually, that makes me think:

Beta Conservative Ethos = Cowboys
Delta Conservative Ethos = Farmers

Beta Progressive Ethos = Anti-War Hippies
Delta Progressive Ethos = Eco-Hippies

The Cowboy/Farmer divide is particularly interesting, given the long history of animosity between the two. I note that John Wayne falls on the "Cowboy" side of that divide.

I'd put my money on LSE anytime.

Yes, but why? That's what I'm interested in.

[Trevor]

Yes, but why? That's what I'm interested in.

Unfortunately it is something I cannot explain easily nor in few words.

[Marie84]

The big thing I'm wondering, at this point, is what you make of John Wayne's and Maureen O'Hare's characters' relationships in their various movies together. Are these Aggressor/Victim relationships they're playing (as I suspect), making John Wayne an LSE playing an SLE role? Or am I wrong, and these are Caregiver/Infantile relationships being portrayed?

I agree that in many cases a persons persona in a film is a projection of who they in real life I don't think it's the best medium towards observing type. In the case of Wayne, who made something like 170+ movies, the majority of which I have not seen, I'm uncomfortable to even use that as a factor.
Although I think his relationship with O'Hare would be interesting to look into. I'm not sure of O'Hare's type, though I've heard he worked with a few actresses in multiple films. Even if they were from opposing quadras I don't think that's a strong enough factor to equate to type; for instance, Gregory Peck was supposedly LSE and Audrey Hepburn IEI, though they had an amicable relationship with one another
This kind of echoes something Rick posted about how intertypes are often used in their extremes, though it's better to see it as duality being the best relationship in the best case scenario and conflicting being the worst relationship in worst case. That leaves room for a medium proximity, or more or less away from the best and worst cases

On related note, I type the actress Gail Russell as an EII, who was both one of his multiple movie leading ladies and an off set friend. This plays a bigger role in why I don't think Wayne was an Se ego, since from what I've read about her, she possessed an almost extreme case of, what I see as, Se PoLR which lead her to alcoholism in order to compensate for those fears.

Something else I have observed, somewhere along the lines of Gulenko's subtype theory, is that some types project more of a rational and irrational persona. I'm not entirely comfortable with classify people to this extreme, though I could see Wayne applying more to the irrational sort of LSE, possessing a sort of rouge, raw, quality less common in what I see as a more rational type of LSE, the latter coming across more gentle and reserved.
Another famous person whom I think can apply to this irrational type of LSE is Mike Rowe.

I have a preference for the rational type, but than again I think I sway towards the rational side myself; so I'm seeing where Gulenko was going with this expanded theory

I agree wholeheartedly. Each Quadra has their own "brand" of conservative ethos, just like each Quadra has their own "brand" of progressive ethos. Delta is filled with just as many eco-hippies as rednecks.

Actually, that makes me think:

Beta Conservative Ethos = Cowboys
Delta Conservative Ethos = Farmers

Beta Progressive Ethos = Anti-War Hippies
Delta Progressive Ethos = Eco-Hippies

The Cowboy/Farmer divide is particularly interesting, given the long history of animosity between the two. I note that John Wayne falls on the "Cowboy" side of that divide.

I'm not particularly comfortable with these categorizations though I see where they're coming from, and in a lot of instances applicable. They seem very culturally driven, and dare I say, gender influenced as well.
For instance, I would think it's more common for young boys to dream about being heroes rather than thinking in terms of practicality, in this case I'd rear towards cowboys being in a more favorable position to farmers.
In the case of ST males in general, I'd say they're more prone towards identifying with stereotypical masculine hero figures like the cowboy, solider, police officer, athlete, etc

Environmentalism is another thing that's becoming more and more culturally common, especially in the last few years. It will likely influence the thoughts and opinions of the new generations being exposed to it in the same way that our societal gender ideals play a role in our development.
Though I'd venture to say the "cowboy" had a lesser impact on the last few generations psyches as it did decades ago

[Krig the Viking]

I agree that in many cases a persons persona in a film is a projection of who they in real life I don't think it's the best medium towards observing type. In the case of Wayne, who made something like 170+ movies, the majority of which I have not seen, I'm uncomfortable to even use that as a factor.

I guess that's one significant difference between us -- I think movies are an excellent resource for typing actors, other than in special cases of character actors like Johnny Depp where they're clearly adept at playing sociotypes other than their own. If nothing else, movies are good for typing the characters being played, since all of the information necessary to get a sense of the character's personality is contained within a 2-hour movie. At least, that's the case if it's a well written/acted movie.

In this case, my primary interest is actually the persona John Wayne projected in his movies, as an example of a strong archetypal character; his actual off-screen personality is only of secondary interest to me (though I suspect they're basically the same).

So far, from all the movies I've seen (the few I've watched recently plus the countless I watched with my dad growing up), it seems to me that John Wayne's characters are all the same base type, whatever that turns out to be.

On related note, I type the actress Gail Russell as an EII, who was both one of his multiple movie leading ladies and an off set friend. This plays a bigger role in why I don't think Wayne was an Se ego, since from what I've read about her, she possessed an almost extreme case of, what I see as, Se PoLR which lead her to alcoholism in order to compensate for those fears.

I'll have to look into her more. Thanks for bringing her up.

Something else I have observed, somewhere along the lines of Gulenko's subtype theory, is that some types project more of a rational and irrational persona. I'm not entirely comfortable with classify people to this extreme, though I could see Wayne applying more to the irrational sort of LSE, possessing a sort of rouge, raw, quality less common in what I see as a more rational type of LSE, the latter coming across more gentle and reserved.
Another famous person whom I think can apply to this irrational type of LSE is Mike Rowe.

I dunno, I see significant differences between Mike Rowe and John Wayne. I don't see Wayne as being as focused on the details of practical matters and producing a high quality "product" like Rowe does on his show. I see Wayne as being more of a "Do what it takes to get it done" guy (which I associate with Se), than a "take the time to do it the right way" guy (which I associate with Delta Te). I don't know if I described what I mean very well there.

I'm not particularly comfortable with these categorizations though I see where they're coming from, and in a lot of instances applicable. They seem very culturally driven, and dare I say, gender influenced as well.
For instance, I would think it's more common for young boys to dream about being heroes rather than thinking in terms of practicality, in this case I'd rear towards cowboys being in a more favorable position to farmers.
In the case of ST males in general, I'd say they're more prone towards identifying with stereotypical masculine hero figures like the cowboy, solider, police officer, athlete, etc

Probably "rancher" would have been a better word to use, instead of "cowboy". As someone who grew up on a farm, to me "cowboy" means primarily "someone who herds cattle", rather than the Hollywood-style "gunslinger who shoots bad guys". The ranchers in the old west would raise cattle, protect them from rustlers and predators, then herd them long distances in often challenging conditions to make a substantial profit at the end. All of these things seem like a Beta Se use of power and force of will to overcome opposition (even just the act of herding cattle involves your will vs. the cattle's wills). Farming, on the other hand, requires a lot of work maintaining your equipment, maintaining the fields, and generally making sure everything is of the highest quality possible. There's little Se-style overcoming of opposition, and a lot of Delta Te-style focus on the most practical methods that produce the highest quality results.

Perhaps the correlation between Rancher/Farmer and Conservative is a bit of a stretch, but I do think Conservative-leaning people are more likely to associate with the Rancher/Farmer archetypes than Progressive-leaning people.

Environmentalism is another thing that's becoming more and more culturally common, especially in the last few years. It will likely influence the thoughts and opinions of the new generations being exposed to it in the same way that our societal gender ideals play a role in our development.

You have a good point about the increasing influence of Environmentalism. Perhaps a more accurate term than "Anti-War Hippies" would have been "Political Protest Hippies". I have in mind the typical '70s protesters promoting political causes, which at that point was the Vietnam war. My conception of what I call "Eco-Hippies" is a little more specific -- less politically confrontational, more focused on things like energy-efficient houses and recycling. However, I admit that this dichotomy is less vivid than the Rancher/Farmer one. And probably influenced by my own political views.

[1981slater]

Delta ST