Weak Functions

[Rocket]

Hello everyone

All the literature i've read confirms a consensus that the "leading" and "creative" functions are the strongest with the next strongest being the "demonstrative" and "observant". PoLR by definition is the weakest.

My question is how do the remaining three functions (role, suggestive & actualization) fit into the rank oder of strength/capacity relative to each other? My guess is "actualization" is the strongest, "suggestive" being second while "role" is third. This would make the "role" function the second weakest in the overall hierarchy .... has anyone got any further information on this as it is not clear from what i've read so far?

[Expat]

I think most people would say that the Role function is the second weakest, that's probably the most accepted view.

It's more complicated for the super-id functions -- they are often seen as stronger than the super-ego functions since they are valued by you, being quadra values. So you are not confident in them, but you value them and prefer people who have those function in their ego (ie your dual).

However, it could also be argued that since your suggestive function - your dual-seeking function - is what you expect most help from other people with, and that you take upon yourself (however grudgingly) to "work" on your role function, your role function is actually "stronger" than the suggestive function.

The activation function is something else.

[Exodus]

I personally don't think there's any point to deciding which is stronger, of the Super-Id and Super-Ego functions. It wouldn't help in typing, anyways.

[Angel von Himmel]

The Super-Ego functions are contrary to the Suer-Id functions much like the Id functions are contrary to the Ego functions.

[Kristiina]

I think my dual-seeking is the weakest - I'm always very quick to delegate Ti obligations to other people. At the same time I have a feeling my Te role is just Ti in disguise. I make it seem like my logic is all practical and nice, but really I just want things to follow a system. I sometimes find myself justifying my logic by saying that following the system is the most practical thing to do.

[Rocket]

Thanks Expat ... I have read somewhere that the actualization function is the one that we have least control over. I guess a better question is which of these 3 weak functions is most receptive to efforts at enhancement.

@ Ambush .... i tend to disagree with the view that assessment of weak functions is "pointless". I am ILE and can say without doubt that coming to terms with a weak Fi has improved my ability to deal with life more than understanding my stregths ever could. For instance with this knowledge i have been very effective at dealing with Fi issues through my Ti faculty. After all when one thinks about it, if you want to "make things better" what can be more "logical" than paying attention to people, their needs and mutual relations? It also helps that i can now type people pretty much on sight and am thus more able to attune to areas of interest.

The biggest concern for me is Se - my role function. To be honest it came as a surprise to me that it was weak. I kinda have an image of myself as being more than competent under pressure, and this has been pretty much confirmed in the outcomes of of various stressful situations i've been in ... including conflicts with SLE / SEE types. Ofcourse this doesn't prove that my Se is strong. It is far more likely that i was perceived as "weak" without the other reckoning on how effective a well developed Ne in conjunction with weak Fi can be in these situations. But then ofcourse this is no solution, better not to be perceived as weak willed in the first place by paying some attention to Se issues, then there is less chance of things having to be resolved with your back to the wall. Better to apply Se more consistently and with a wider repetoire of Se options than having to resort to fight or flight attitudes. An improvement in understanding Fi issues has allowed some pressure to come off applying Se especially where i require its use in management. What would really be helpful is a direct way to improve Se in a similar way Fi was addressed. Any suggestions?

Kristiina i've thought about what you said. All else being equal, in my observation dual seeking could be stronger than role. I know IEI types that will leave unwashed plates festering around the house for days ( Si as role). In my case this is intolerable (Si as dual seeking) ...... i will actually do something about it.

Cheers

[FDG]

I don't understand how people can "feel" the functions :S except the F ones, that I feel I suck at, I can't "feel" when I'm using S, N, T

[meatburger]

Good topic Rocket

I am also interested in the hierarchy of strongest to weakest functions. Just from a confidence point of view. Someone can obliterate my Ti for instance but i could at least think "oh well my Te is almost a strength" (even though i know it isn't )

As a person who shares the role, i know exactly what you mean by being suprised its so weak. I actually assumed(until i read this thread) that my role is my next strongest function. I used to have an ENTp friend who, perhaps due to his lack of Fi used to get us into a fair amount of brawls. In this area we actually kicked a small amount of arse. I have also seen ENTj's throw mean punches though so maybe Se doesn't quite have total bearing on fighting. **Just as a disclaimer though, im not saying im some ultra mean street fighter. I definately wouldn't want to come across an Se dominant and i haven't got into a fight for years, but we were ahead of the curve in this area**

My ability to give orders is TOTALLY non existant however.

I do tend to clean when things get too messy, so maybe your assertion that dual seeking (si) is the strongest of the weak is correct? What about standing on top of a mountian overlooking a beautiful vista. Is that ? I long for things like this but i feel like i cant cherish them properly.. :wink:

[Exodus]

Thanks Expat ... I have read somewhere that the actualization function is the one that we have least control over. I guess a better question is which of these 3 weak functions is most receptive to efforts at enhancement.

@ Ambush .... i tend to disagree with the view that assessment of weak functions is "pointless".

No, that is not at all what I meant! I just meant that exactly how weak they are is rather immaterial. Of course understanding one's weaknesses is one of the prime benefits of Socionics.

The biggest concern for me is Se - my role function. To be honest it came as a surprise to me that it was weak. I kinda have an image of myself as being more than competent under pressure, and this has been pretty much confirmed in the outcomes of of various stressful situations i've been in ... including conflicts with SLE / SEE types.

This is why I have come to regard the Role function as the most insidious: you think it's strong, you think you value it, but you really don't. I see unbalanced individuals IRL all the time who are obsessed with their Role. In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

Kristiina i've thought about what you said. All else being equal, in my observation dual seeking could be stronger than role. I know IEI types that will leave unwashed plates festering around the house for days ( Si as role). In my case this is intolerable (Si as dual seeking) ...... i will actually do something about it.

See, this is what I mean: the important difference between Super-ego and Super-id is that you value the Super-id, and will normally seek it more actively (maybe). It has little to do with functional weakness.

[meatburger]

This is why I have come to regard the Role function as the most insidious: you think it's strong, you think you value it, but you really don't. I see unbalanced individuals IRL all the time who are obsessed with their Role. In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

Yeah it seems ENFp's can also suffer this problem to some degree. Both my parents value Se so its hard to escape it. If i ever use force over anybody i harshly judge myself afterwards and feel like shit about it.. When it comes to me, i almost feel like sometimes its to appear more manly. Since im a feeling guy and i dont have very strong thinking, the lines can perhaps be a little blurred between me and the traditional male.

[Gilly]

In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

What exactly do you take to be an image?

[Exodus]

In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

What exactly do you take to be an image?

An example: he has recently joked that he wants to become an international terrorist. Killing people, etc. This in itself is fairly harmless joking; it is just representative of his larger outlook. He also belittles Si-related things, etc.

[Exodus]

This is why I have come to regard the Role function as the most insidious: you think it's strong, you think you value it, but you really don't. I see unbalanced individuals IRL all the time who are obsessed with their Role. In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

Yeah it seems ENFp's can also suffer this problem to some degree. Both my parents value Se so its hard to escape it. If i ever use force over anybody i harshly judge myself afterwards and feel like shit about it.. When it comes to me, i almost feel like sometimes its to appear more manly. Since im a feeling guy and i dont have very strong thinking, the lines can perhaps be a little blurred between me and the traditional male.

I have a hard time seeing the Se Role in ENFps. Maybe in some guys I can, but it's less obvious to me than in ENTps.

[Gilly]

In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

What exactly do you take to be an image?

An example: he has recently joked that he wants to become an international terrorist. Killing people, etc. This in itself is fairly harmless joking; it is just representative of his larger outlook.

Now what on earth compells you to think that this has anything at all to do with ?

[Exodus]

In particular an ENTp friend of mine tries to project an Se image, and suffers for it.

What exactly do you take to be an image?

An example: he has recently joked that he wants to become an international terrorist. Killing people, etc. This in itself is fairly harmless joking; it is just representative of his larger outlook.

Now what on earth compells you to think that this has anything at all to do with ?

Sigh.

Se is related to aggression and confrontation, and he has consistently glorified aggression and attempted to express it in his own behavior.

[krieger]

I am quite certain that the substantial part of the model A does not claim anything about a hyrarchy of strengths among functions. Even the PoLR is not in the theoretical sense weaker than the other weak functions, even if there are reasons why one might want to call it that regardless. No doubt you're going to harvest a whole throng of responses to this question. But take note that all of them are of a subjective origin, and use them with that consideration in mind.

[meatburger]

Yeah i hate to say it but i witnessed the same in my ENTp friend back in the day. He used to talk about fighting and act quite tough. Even back then i worried that he overestimate his fighting abilities and get laid out by a kickboxer or something. This indicates weak Se. He has grown out of this now however.

Generally i think an ENFp's Fi overides Se so it doesn't happen too often. Its much easier to talk out of a confrontation than to have one. I never initiate any Se i try to be kind to everyone. Every once in a while when someone abuses me etc it does make me very very angry.

[Ave]

I think most people would say that the Role function is the second weakest, that's probably the most accepted view.

Actually I always thought the hidden agenda was the weakest, but people focus on polr because it is more conscious.

[Rocket]

PoLR is the weakest (by definition) .... I don't know how to describe it exactly but it seems its the worst tool for the job eg. attempting to drain a swimming pool through a straw.... not only is it inefficient/frustrating but likely to evoke extreme reactions due to an individuals lack of ability to deal with it.

The other thing is i don't want to "project" [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Se.gif[/img] as that would defeat the purpose. I do not want to be phony ... i want to access a wider range of [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Se.gif[/img] options. I want to find ways to better utilize it when circumstances call for its utilization, even if required at the expense of other behaviours. I know socionics is about finding compatible partners that can take care of your "weak" spots but what do you do when you are compelled to call on upon your own faculties. I am an ENTP and i have been given an underperforming INFP to "mentor"... my strategy should be clear to most here, but in crude terms i want to duplicate some of the behaviour of an ESTP - all to eveyones benefit ofcourse . I want to know the rank order of strength because if my role function [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Se.gif[/img] is indeed the second weakest it might not be as receptive to development as i had hoped.

@ Meatburger ... thanks for the understanding :wink:

OK this is what i know/have read about developing/substituting for weak functions.

[1] The role function suffers directly as a result of the utilization of the base function (in my case [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Ne.gif[/img]). Moreover some suggest that it may be better to "underutilize" the role function because the returns are better on the base function.

[2] A good initial strategy is to focus on developing the creative function (in my case [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Ti.gif[/img]) to compensate for weaknesses in other areas.

[3] That the dual seeking function (in may case [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Si.gif[/img])can be used to "feed" or augment the role function.


Some are suggesting that Model A does not describe a hierarchy of functions. Based on what i've read so far i have to disagree. It is entirely about hierarchy. Within the psyche of one individual the hierachy of functions is always consistent. This ofcourse does not negate the possibiility that the PoLR of one individual can be stronger than the base function of another person.

The other thing i want to say is i don't view [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Se.gif[/img] as being simply about violence/aggression. Those sort of descrptions migh be expected from people with weak [img]oldforumlinkimages/smiles/Se.gif[/img]. Rather what i've studied suggest that it involves a wide repetoire of "strong willed methods" for the achievent of a purpose. This can accomodate all sorts of behaviours including "individual hard work", setting an example for others and using a variety of direct/indirect persuasive behaviours (& not just coercion).

My question remains ... does anyone know how to rank the weaker function ?

[meatburger]

Underutilising the role to strengthen Base, interesting i love little things like this

I doubt anyone understands, but i have been wondering lately how best i should present myself to the world. What will reap the most benefits? If i show Fi and hapiness and love etc, thats all well and great but im bound to get some Se Dominant's ready to give me shit lol.

I just read the descriptions of the types by function again and it seems hard to tell which ones by description are weaker. Here are the role functions of ENFp and ENTp.

ENFp Role
3. role function: power sensorika In the extreme situations it will mobilize and acts very decisively. The rebuff to any encroachments gives. Cannot but otvetit' to attempts at the dictates, power pressure. Is very independent itself and will not begin to constrain someone other. To it now and then does not be sufficient will, in order to take itself in the hands and to carry out that which ripened. It does not fear to come out against the superior forces. It can go to the chief of any rank and require resolution of its question. It has a habit to catch rival with the first. After getting involved in into the dispute, it is active, and now and then also it is aggressive, defends its opinion. It suffers because of its excitable and impetuosity. For this reason to it it is to heavy remove stress in the humeral part of the housing.

ENTp Role
3. role function: power sensorika According to the nature of non-agressive, but their means of life and their theories is capable to defend very actively. To the attempt to subordinate itself to unjustified, from its point of view, limitations it reacts very stormily. If we to it exert power pressure, here it passes into the short, but strong counterattack. In this case so it is excited, which to the period loses control over its behavior. During the conversation it attempts to take possession of entire attention of collocutor. In this case strongly it gesticulates, speaks in loud voice, worthite in the hands any object or it touches the collocutor. Although it can answer the deserted call, prolonged competition it will not carry, since forces do not be sufficient to hold themselves in the mobilized state. Therefore it avoids straight rivalry.

I think by those descriptions its obvious that our role functions are uncontrolled but i think the black parts highlight that they are not totally hopeless?

For the record, i would like to say that im not trying to define my manliness etc, its just if Se is indeed as weak as some say i will abandon it almost completely