Fe dual-seeking of INTjs

[Expat]

INTjs, how do you see your dual-seeking? What do you expect from an ESFj's ?

[oyburger]

The only ESFj I know is a girl at my work. She was one of the first people I met when I started here and we latched onto each other quickly. We can talk forever and we alot in common. When Daniel first met her he was suprised. He said that she seems like someone that I'd never in a million years like. She makes me feel comfortable, she encourages me and she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

[Expat]

she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

Would you say that's what you value most in other people's ?

[UDP]

Strati's description of in the LII is quite accurate for me

Why ESE?
Well for me it goes like this:

• I could not be with another T type because: T women are generally less attractive to me; T conflicts.
• I could not trust an irrational in the way I prefer to trust
• So that leaves Fe and Fi remaining
  Fi: ISFj - as creative -> Not really appealing. Also, IJ with IJ awkwardness. Gamma
  Fe: ENFj - as creative -> interesting, but a victim type. I would feel more comfortable if pursued somewhat. Also, Beta, aristocratic -- kind of not appealing.
  Fi: INFj - creative (Identical) -> INFjs are great, but I've found personally that, being a guy, I prefer to take the caregiver role with EIIs, which ultimately becomes taxing psychologically. Going through this experience somewhat made me realize and accept that I need a caregiver.
  ESFj - creative (dual) -> Alpha, caregiver. I have a lot of guards and ideas about what ESEs really are, but I am finding that sometimes they master Fe so well that it seems "effortless". I have issues with being 'taken care of', but I admit to not accepting it IFF it is sincere. Also, there is something about FeSi and beauty that resonates with logical correctness or perfection. And as above, realizing I do need someone to take care of F for me in a close relationship makes ESE the more clear ideal partner. And if they need help with , that is "effortless" for me, so it is no problem. I assume the 'magic of duality' is just that - when two people enjoy accepting and giving the respective strong attributes of another.

[Expat]

An example, perhaps the INTjs here will relate to it --

A few years ago I was at a party in Germany. They started some game where people were supposed to dance in lines, with everyone in one line having to imitate the moves of the first person on each line. With everyone else watching it of course. I was "dragged" into it by some friends and although disliking it and feeling stupid, I shrugged and went along (and probably looking like Elaine dancing, as Blaze also said).

My ISTj-Ti friend was feeling very unhappy about it, and he asked his ISFj wife in a low voice, "you're coming with me, right?" She did and he was more at ease.

The ISFp guy, obviously, was having the time of his life.

[UDP]

she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

Would you say that's what you value most in other people's ?

Outside of personal relationships, it is less important. I am more concerned with people's competence, trustworthiness, and character in general - as opposed to sheer . There are some people who are just radiant and I have no real affinity for.


I said a lot in the above post. I do appreciate positive atmospheres, but if it is a non-close relationship, then it is just a factor like anything else, and I appreciate it like good Te or good Se, Ni, etc. Only when it becomes a closer relationship does it become more necessary, as I described above.


I do not value being taken care of in social situations because I feel that is my own responsibility. Having someone cater too me too much would make me feel like a baby, and sometimes I am irritated when some family caregivers do that to me.

[UDP]

My ISTj-Ti friend was feeling very unhappy about it, and he asked his ISFj wife in a low voice, "you're coming with me, right?" She did and he was more at ease.

The ISFp guy, obviously, was having the time of his life.

ISTj and ISFp.
I can relate in a situation like that, because the only time I would go to an event like that would be with an ESE, or if it was work related. I might be able to write of dancing as "team building", but it is not anything I enjoy.

That is a good example of Fe being useful to Ti, though, as Fe provides parameters for Ti to make judgments off of, especially in an uncertain or new situation like that.

[Expat]

Thanks UDP, your answers were very helpful.

[UDP]

somehow I see that as a trained Fe response to seeing an over-expulsion of Ti. Like I was trying too hard. Not that I am saying that was your intention, it just made me wary.

But I'm not very good at accepting compliments in any arena.
So you are welcome


PS: that's sort of an indication of why I like Si ESEs more... Fe ESEs seem to give less sincere compliments, or that's how it 'feels'. That's very subjective, but it does relate to Fe-awareness.

(hmm, So perhaps this post is in and of itself an example of Fe dual seeking)

[Exodus]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

[UDP]

Good call - the only way I can get into groups from the outside on my own is by being very deliberately T. It's kind of rugged I suppose. So Fe / ESE would help a lot there, I imagine.

[Logos]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

This would be a fair assessment. INxx's generally feel always like outsiders looking in or as an entity apart from a social scene. While it is perhaps erroneous to generalize as being the societal function, it is the external ethics of interrelation, which could be seen as a further gross generalization of society. The ESFj (and ISFp) wants an inclusive society, which would include the INTj outsider. So part of the importance of of the ESFj is simply bringing the INTj into a societal context in which he would not otherwise be comfortable. So what the INTj needs on some subconscious level is exactly what the ESFj does best or at least desires to perform. Being a Caregiver is not necessarily about being nursemaid, but about being socially attentive.

I also think ESFjs provide a certain societal context through which an INTj's can be exercised. The world (and society) does not make sense to the INTj and the ESFj seemingly confirms it. Both the INTj and the ESFj want to be able to rationalize it on some level. The INTj wants to rationalize it so he can be able to live in this society (either as it is or through change). Also as strange as it may sound, I think most especially in the Alpha duals, each pair sees within the other a certain naiveté in their views, but they are attracted to that quality (and those ideas) which they see in each other, because it is somewhat comforting to be able to mutually recognize that quality.

[Ms. Kensington]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

I think I agree with this. I agree that Fe types will reach out to others to make sure there is noone left out. I understand some people don't like to be part of activities, but sometimes I have trouble asserting myself and appreciate it if someone sticks up for me. I also seem to get pissed if people don't say thank you or give credit where it was due.

What I think I need most from others is verbal expression, of feelings or opinions or otherwise. I think Fe types do this.

[UDP]

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

What I said actually was I only like SPECIFIC kinds of Fe -- real, not fake Fe. The point of my response to Expat was that I am very wary when people present me with Fe, because most of the time I doubt it. The part of LII description by Strati is good at explaining how only a 'sincere heat' is really capable of influencing.

LII's do not like cheap emotions, or I don't at least. So someone trying to kiss my ass or incorrectly, insincerely trying to influence me emotionally will be face a very unpleasant situation. It is better to not even try to fake it, because I am the kind of person who will find out no matter what, and if that emotional insincerity has been corrupted, then, like Darcy, that is a transgression against me I cannot forgive.


In a general sense, I do not mind when people try to brighten the Fe atmosphere. That does not 'bother me'. But the more personal, the more scrutiny.




bottom line: Any old is not like crack. It has to be premium, high grade material, from a trusted and reliable source. If it passes all the tests, then it is addicting and quite necessary, because of the sensitivity.

What I think I need most from others is verbal expression, of feelings or opinions or otherwise. I think Fe types do this.

Yes I like this as well, because when I ask a question I prefer a clear response. Talking with INFjs sometimes is annoying because of this, especially if I am presenting something I think is important. That is one thing that made me realize: "...(this isn't going to work)...". Having already experienced an ESE smiling at me in response, with an effortlessly magnificent Fe/Si intonation, it is doubtful another psychological type could be more appealing.

[Ms. Kensington]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.

I crave social energy where I can absorb and take in those aspects of people that are changeable. I have always been interested in other cultures and in travelling, and although our reasons may differ, I feel i am very similar to my ISTj friend this way. ISFj in my life likes to travel but has no interest in culture. only physical novelty. I don't have an Fe dominant in my life btw.

2) interest in having an established role in society

this may apply to all people, but I believe it's marked in IxTj. i have a deep craving to be of service in society and look for a role that will fit me. An established one makes the most sense to me.

[dbmmama]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.

I crave social energy where I can absorb and take in those aspects of people that are changeable. I have always been interested in other cultures and in travelling, and although our reasons may differ, I feel i am very similar to my ISTj friend this way. ISFj in my life likes to travel but has no interest in culture. only physical novelty. I don't have an Fe dominant in my life btw.

2) interest in having an established role in society

this may apply to all people, but I believe it's marked in IxTj. i have a deep craving to be of service in society and look for a role that will fit me. An established one makes the most sense to me.

those things sound like Fi to me, Ne/Fi?

[Blaze]

an LII that i know feels the same way about traveling and experiencing cultures. def Fe dual seeking.

the second thing you have seems more like Fi role.

[dbmmama]

an LII that i know feels the same way about traveling and experiencing cultures. def Fe dual seeking.

the second thing you have seems more like Fi role.

really? then i better just shut my mouth with my opinions because i don't "get" this at all yet. lol

[Ms. Kensington]

basically being uber clueless and wanting to know, what's "normal" culturally. What cultural norms are, and to compare between cultures to see what is ultimately normal.

I think Ne Fi just likes to connect with others, whatever their culture will be.

[XoX]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.
2) interest in having an established role in society

That's interesting because I don't have either of these yearnings. Cultures are not interesting to me because I'd rather create my own culture i.e. I don't feel "a culture" can offer me anything which I can't figure out myself. About established roles...I don't believe anything is really established nor do I want to be restricted by the limitations of a role. I want a sort of free role in a non established but still effective environment. I dislike it when I am put into a "role" which limits my actions. Thus we are not identicals Anyways, I can see how an ESFj could match your interests.

[FDG]

That's interesting because I don't have either of these yearnings. Cultures are not interesting to me because I'd rather create my own culture i.e. I don't feel "a culture" can offer me anything which I can't figure out myself. About established roles...I don't believe anything is really established nor do I want to be restricted by the limitations of a role. I want a sort of free role in a non established but still effective environment. I dislike it when I am put into a "role" which limits my actions. Thus we are not identicals Anyways, I can see how an ESFj could match your interests.

Yeah, it's interesting for me to read this thread, because I do not yearn either for these type of experiences. Cultures seem to be too ever-changing for me to have an interest in them; I prefer to learn about this that are (at least apparently) non-changing (ex. I'm very interested in other countries geography, climate, rivers, seas, etc)

[XoX]

Yeah, it's interesting for me to read this thread, because I do not yearn either for these type of experiences. Cultures seem to be too ever-changing for me to have an interest in them; I prefer to learn about this that are (at least apparently) non-changing (ex. I'm very interested in other countries geography, climate, rivers, seas, etc)

I find the river Amazon itself much more interesting than the cultures living around the river. Is it this kind of things you are referring to?

[FDG]

I find the river Amazon itself much more interesting than the cultures living around the river. Is it this kind of things you are referring to?

yea

[diljs]

Yeah, it's interesting for me to read this thread, because I do not yearn either for these type of experiences. Cultures seem to be too ever-changing for me to have an interest in them; I prefer to learn about this that are (at least apparently) non-changing (ex. I'm very interested in other countries geography, climate, rivers, seas, etc)

Interesting, I see cultures as much more static.