Fe dual-seeking of INTjs

[Expat]

INTjs, how do you see your dual-seeking? What do you expect from an ESFj's ?

[oyburger]

The only ESFj I know is a girl at my work. She was one of the first people I met when I started here and we latched onto each other quickly. We can talk forever and we alot in common. When Daniel first met her he was suprised. He said that she seems like someone that I'd never in a million years like. She makes me feel comfortable, she encourages me and she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

[Expat]

she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

Would you say that's what you value most in other people's ?

[UDP]

Strati's description of in the LII is quite accurate for me

Why ESE?
Well for me it goes like this:

• I could not be with another T type because: T women are generally less attractive to me; T conflicts.
• I could not trust an irrational in the way I prefer to trust
• So that leaves Fe and Fi remaining
  Fi: ISFj - as creative -> Not really appealing. Also, IJ with IJ awkwardness. Gamma
  Fe: ENFj - as creative -> interesting, but a victim type. I would feel more comfortable if pursued somewhat. Also, Beta, aristocratic -- kind of not appealing.
  Fi: INFj - creative (Identical) -> INFjs are great, but I've found personally that, being a guy, I prefer to take the caregiver role with EIIs, which ultimately becomes taxing psychologically. Going through this experience somewhat made me realize and accept that I need a caregiver.
  ESFj - creative (dual) -> Alpha, caregiver. I have a lot of guards and ideas about what ESEs really are, but I am finding that sometimes they master Fe so well that it seems "effortless". I have issues with being 'taken care of', but I admit to not accepting it IFF it is sincere. Also, there is something about FeSi and beauty that resonates with logical correctness or perfection. And as above, realizing I do need someone to take care of F for me in a close relationship makes ESE the more clear ideal partner. And if they need help with , that is "effortless" for me, so it is no problem. I assume the 'magic of duality' is just that - when two people enjoy accepting and giving the respective strong attributes of another.

[Expat]

An example, perhaps the INTjs here will relate to it --

A few years ago I was at a party in Germany. They started some game where people were supposed to dance in lines, with everyone in one line having to imitate the moves of the first person on each line. With everyone else watching it of course. I was "dragged" into it by some friends and although disliking it and feeling stupid, I shrugged and went along (and probably looking like Elaine dancing, as Blaze also said).

My ISTj-Ti friend was feeling very unhappy about it, and he asked his ISFj wife in a low voice, "you're coming with me, right?" She did and he was more at ease.

The ISFp guy, obviously, was having the time of his life.

[UDP]

she "takes care of me" in social situations where I feel uncomfortable.

Would you say that's what you value most in other people's ?

Outside of personal relationships, it is less important. I am more concerned with people's competence, trustworthiness, and character in general - as opposed to sheer . There are some people who are just radiant and I have no real affinity for.


I said a lot in the above post. I do appreciate positive atmospheres, but if it is a non-close relationship, then it is just a factor like anything else, and I appreciate it like good Te or good Se, Ni, etc. Only when it becomes a closer relationship does it become more necessary, as I described above.


I do not value being taken care of in social situations because I feel that is my own responsibility. Having someone cater too me too much would make me feel like a baby, and sometimes I am irritated when some family caregivers do that to me.

[UDP]

My ISTj-Ti friend was feeling very unhappy about it, and he asked his ISFj wife in a low voice, "you're coming with me, right?" She did and he was more at ease.

The ISFp guy, obviously, was having the time of his life.

ISTj and ISFp.
I can relate in a situation like that, because the only time I would go to an event like that would be with an ESE, or if it was work related. I might be able to write of dancing as "team building", but it is not anything I enjoy.

That is a good example of Fe being useful to Ti, though, as Fe provides parameters for Ti to make judgments off of, especially in an uncertain or new situation like that.

[Expat]

Thanks UDP, your answers were very helpful.

[UDP]

somehow I see that as a trained Fe response to seeing an over-expulsion of Ti. Like I was trying too hard. Not that I am saying that was your intention, it just made me wary.

But I'm not very good at accepting compliments in any arena.
So you are welcome


PS: that's sort of an indication of why I like Si ESEs more... Fe ESEs seem to give less sincere compliments, or that's how it 'feels'. That's very subjective, but it does relate to Fe-awareness.

(hmm, So perhaps this post is in and of itself an example of Fe dual seeking)

[Exodus]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

[UDP]

Good call - the only way I can get into groups from the outside on my own is by being very deliberately T. It's kind of rugged I suppose. So Fe / ESE would help a lot there, I imagine.

[Logos]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

This would be a fair assessment. INxx's generally feel always like outsiders looking in or as an entity apart from a social scene. While it is perhaps erroneous to generalize as being the societal function, it is the external ethics of interrelation, which could be seen as a further gross generalization of society. The ESFj (and ISFp) wants an inclusive society, which would include the INTj outsider. So part of the importance of of the ESFj is simply bringing the INTj into a societal context in which he would not otherwise be comfortable. So what the INTj needs on some subconscious level is exactly what the ESFj does best or at least desires to perform. Being a Caregiver is not necessarily about being nursemaid, but about being socially attentive.

I also think ESFjs provide a certain societal context through which an INTj's can be exercised. The world (and society) does not make sense to the INTj and the ESFj seemingly confirms it. Both the INTj and the ESFj want to be able to rationalize it on some level. The INTj wants to rationalize it so he can be able to live in this society (either as it is or through change). Also as strange as it may sound, I think most especially in the Alpha duals, each pair sees within the other a certain naiveté in their views, but they are attracted to that quality (and those ideas) which they see in each other, because it is somewhat comforting to be able to mutually recognize that quality.

[Ms. Kensington]

Making me feel included is a big plus. INTjs have a hard time penetrating into social groups from the outside, and ESFjs can be the ones to break the ice.

Also, the "softening of ethical mistakes" by turning them into a joke is very accurate.

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

I think I agree with this. I agree that Fe types will reach out to others to make sure there is noone left out. I understand some people don't like to be part of activities, but sometimes I have trouble asserting myself and appreciate it if someone sticks up for me. I also seem to get pissed if people don't say thank you or give credit where it was due.

What I think I need most from others is verbal expression, of feelings or opinions or otherwise. I think Fe types do this.

[UDP]

And yes, praising my Ti, like UDP mentioned, is like crack.

What I said actually was I only like SPECIFIC kinds of Fe -- real, not fake Fe. The point of my response to Expat was that I am very wary when people present me with Fe, because most of the time I doubt it. The part of LII description by Strati is good at explaining how only a 'sincere heat' is really capable of influencing.

LII's do not like cheap emotions, or I don't at least. So someone trying to kiss my ass or incorrectly, insincerely trying to influence me emotionally will be face a very unpleasant situation. It is better to not even try to fake it, because I am the kind of person who will find out no matter what, and if that emotional insincerity has been corrupted, then, like Darcy, that is a transgression against me I cannot forgive.


In a general sense, I do not mind when people try to brighten the Fe atmosphere. That does not 'bother me'. But the more personal, the more scrutiny.




bottom line: Any old is not like crack. It has to be premium, high grade material, from a trusted and reliable source. If it passes all the tests, then it is addicting and quite necessary, because of the sensitivity.

What I think I need most from others is verbal expression, of feelings or opinions or otherwise. I think Fe types do this.

Yes I like this as well, because when I ask a question I prefer a clear response. Talking with INFjs sometimes is annoying because of this, especially if I am presenting something I think is important. That is one thing that made me realize: "...(this isn't going to work)...". Having already experienced an ESE smiling at me in response, with an effortlessly magnificent Fe/Si intonation, it is doubtful another psychological type could be more appealing.

[Ms. Kensington]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.

I crave social energy where I can absorb and take in those aspects of people that are changeable. I have always been interested in other cultures and in travelling, and although our reasons may differ, I feel i am very similar to my ISTj friend this way. ISFj in my life likes to travel but has no interest in culture. only physical novelty. I don't have an Fe dominant in my life btw.

2) interest in having an established role in society

this may apply to all people, but I believe it's marked in IxTj. i have a deep craving to be of service in society and look for a role that will fit me. An established one makes the most sense to me.

[dbmmama]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.

I crave social energy where I can absorb and take in those aspects of people that are changeable. I have always been interested in other cultures and in travelling, and although our reasons may differ, I feel i am very similar to my ISTj friend this way. ISFj in my life likes to travel but has no interest in culture. only physical novelty. I don't have an Fe dominant in my life btw.

2) interest in having an established role in society

this may apply to all people, but I believe it's marked in IxTj. i have a deep craving to be of service in society and look for a role that will fit me. An established one makes the most sense to me.

those things sound like Fi to me, Ne/Fi?

[Blaze]

an LII that i know feels the same way about traveling and experiencing cultures. def Fe dual seeking.

the second thing you have seems more like Fi role.

[dbmmama]

an LII that i know feels the same way about traveling and experiencing cultures. def Fe dual seeking.

the second thing you have seems more like Fi role.

really? then i better just shut my mouth with my opinions because i don't "get" this at all yet. lol

[Ms. Kensington]

basically being uber clueless and wanting to know, what's "normal" culturally. What cultural norms are, and to compare between cultures to see what is ultimately normal.

I think Ne Fi just likes to connect with others, whatever their culture will be.

[Blaze]

basically being uber clueless and wanting to know, what's "normal" culturally. What cultural norms are, and to compare between cultures to see what is ultimately normal.

I think Ne Fi just likes to connect with others, whatever their culture will be.

ahhh the first thing you said seems sort of Ti or something. like you want to make a grid about how things are expressed across cultures.

the LII that i know likes very emotionally expressive cultures such as italy and latin american countries and spain. he's 42 years old and not married...can't seem to get a relationship to last more than 6 months. i think he's Fe dual seeking to the max, along with having a mid life re-evalutation.

[redbaron]

The LII I know also loves other cultures. In fact, she did a master's degree in international studies and knows about 8 languages! Loves to travel and now takes extensive family vacations all over the world (married ILE and they have a lot of money). Problem in their marriage, though, is that it lacks Fe big-time and she feels it. She has complained that although they are VERY good friends and have, in every other way a very good marriage, the expressing feelings part and the sex has been lacking. Anyway, the other thing I was going to say is that she also has felt quite guilty about not working since she had kids. They don't need her to earn money but it's like she wants to fill a role in society, the way you mentioned. I have no such guilt.

[Blaze]

The LII I know also loves other cultures. In fact, she did a master's degree in international studies and knows about 8 languages! Loves to travel and now takes extensive family vacations all over the world (married ILE and they have a lot of money). Problem in their marriage, though, is that it lacks Fe big-time and she feels it. She has complained that although they are VERY good friends and have, in every other way a very good marriage, the expressing feelings part and the sex has been lacking. Anyway, the other thing I was going to say is that she also has felt quite guilty about not working since she had kids. They don't need her to earn money but it's like she wants to fill a role in society, the way you mentioned. I have no such guilt.

i can totally believe it about this marriage...i just can't imagine being married to an LII, although i think one would make a great friend. i mean, there's no S and there's no F....where do you go from there? you at least need one or the other, at least i would.

[XoX]

1) interest in and need to experience other cultures.
2) interest in having an established role in society

That's interesting because I don't have either of these yearnings. Cultures are not interesting to me because I'd rather create my own culture i.e. I don't feel "a culture" can offer me anything which I can't figure out myself. About established roles...I don't believe anything is really established nor do I want to be restricted by the limitations of a role. I want a sort of free role in a non established but still effective environment. I dislike it when I am put into a "role" which limits my actions. Thus we are not identicals Anyways, I can see how an ESFj could match your interests.

[redbaron]

i can totally believe it about this marriage...i just can't imagine being married to an LII, although i think one would make a great friend. i mean, there's no S and there's no F....where do you go from there? you at least need one or the other, at least i would.

Yeah well they're rich enough so they have someone else do the cleaning and laundry and anything else they want done. She cooks as a hobby and takes multiple yoga classes. She's a bit obsessed with health things. I enjoy being around them--I guess cause I provide the Fe and they both seem appreciative. lol but yeah, according to her they're really pretty bad at expressing feelings--she said she knows he loves her but he rarely says it, etc.....

[Blaze]

Yeah well they're rich enough so they have someone else do the cleaning and laundry and anything else they want done. She cooks as a hobby and takes multiple yoga classes. She's a bit obsessed with health things. I enjoy being around them--I guess cause I provide the Fe and they both seem appreciative. lol but yeah, according to her they're really pretty bad at expressing feelings--she said she knows he loves her but he rarely says it, etc.....

i'd rather have no money. seriously.

[redbaron]

i'd rather have no money. seriously.

yeah! Strange thing is, she doesn't seem to mind all that much. At least, she makes light of it. I guess you learn to accept these things over time? I mean, they definitely function well together. They never ever fight (unlike me and the ESE) Yet he tells me all the time that he loves me.

[Blaze]

yeah! Strange thing is, she doesn't seem to mind all that much. At least, she makes light of it. I guess you learn to accept these things over time? I mean, they definitely function well together. They never ever fight (unlike me and the ESE) Yet he tells me all the time that he loves me.

yeah i see what you mean, each to his own.

fightin's not so bad....sometimes the electricity is just what you need to get things going lol.

[redbaron]

yeah i see what you mean, each to his own.

fightin's not so bad....sometimes the electricity is just what you need to get things going lol.

true enough. I laughed at him yesterday because he said "Actually, I'm perfect for you!" Oh really? After 14 years you've finally decided you're perfect for me? I laughed. He's pretty cute.

anyway...didn't mean to derail the thread....I'm probably annoying people...

[Blaze]

guilty as charged....ok....now back to other cultures and LII.

[Ms. Kensington]

The LII I know also loves other cultures. In fact, she did a master's degree in international studies and knows about 8 languages! Loves to travel and now takes extensive family vacations all over the world (married ILE and they have a lot of money). Problem in their marriage, though, is that it lacks Fe big-time and she feels it. She has complained that although they are VERY good friends and have, in every other way a very good marriage, the expressing feelings part and the sex has been lacking. Anyway, the other thing I was going to say is that she also has felt quite guilty about not working since she had kids. They don't need her to earn money but it's like she wants to fill a role in society, the way you mentioned. I have no such guilt.

yeah i think that with the ILE and LII romantically, a lot of the expressing feelings part needs to come from within.. sort of like throwing ideas at each other and the other person interprets it, and feels it sort of indirectly. I don't know if that makes sense, but compare that with Fe ego types that don't need to say a damn word and i feel it.

[redbaron]

yeah i think that with the ILE and LII romantically, a lot of the expressing feelings part needs to come from within.. sort of like throwing ideas at each other and the other person interprets it, and feels it sort of indirectly. I don't know if that makes sense, but compare that with Fe ego types that don't need to say a damn word and i feel it.

Yup, totally makes sense.

[Mediator Kam]

Gotta ask my dad this omg.

I like cultures too.

[Ms. Kensington]

what subtype is your friend's ENTp, redbaron?

I could see how this would affect the ENTp's tolerance for lack of expression or need for certain things.

I read the whole thread and I was struck again by the fact that an Fe type will get what they need or want from a Ti type one way, in the form of expressing appreciation emotionally. I *am* very appreciative.

[Blaze]

I read the whole thread and I was struck again by the fact that an Fe type will get what they need or want from a Ti type one way, in the form of expressing appreciation emotionally. I *am* very appreciative.

hmmmmm and this is true for ILE as well. i'll, like, do anything for somebody who gives the appreciative Fe. :-)

[redbaron]

what subtype is your friend's ENTp, redbaron?

I could see how this would affect the ENTp's tolerance for lack of expression or need for certain things.

I read the whole thread and I was struck again by the fact that an Fe type will get what they need or want from a Ti type one way, in the form of expressing appreciation emotionally. I *am* very appreciative.

I think the ILE is probably Ne subtype but I could be wrong.

the appreciation thing is funny because my ESE husband is always saying how he craves appreciation. I try but I guess my form of appreciation isn't strong enough for him. More often than not, I feel like he gives me things I don't need and then wants me to appreciate him for it. Then when I try, it comes across as patronizing, like I'm only "appreciating" him because he wants the appreciation and not because I actually feel it. which is kinda true but what am I supposed to do?? (sorry, not trying to de-rail the convo). But anyway, INTj giving appreciation is really very much what the ESFj wants.

[Ms. Kensington]

I think the ILE is probably Ne subtype but I could be wrong.

the appreciation thing is funny because my ESE husband is always saying how he craves appreciation. I try but I guess my form of appreciation isn't strong enough for him. More often than not, I feel like he gives me things I don't need and then wants me to appreciate him for it. Then when I try, it comes across as patronizing, like I'm only "appreciating" him because he wants the appreciation and not because I actually feel it. which is kinda true but what am I supposed to do?? (sorry, not trying to de-rail the convo). But anyway, INTj giving appreciation is really very much what the ESFj wants.

haha. well, i have this problem with an ISFp.. and i tell her that i am pissed off but I also make sure to (even randomly) tell her I appreciate her too. I think ESFjs can probably tell if you are fake appreciating, yeah, and I think cracka has said that he much prefers someone directly telling him that he's annoying them than to try to appease him. I think. Maybe it comes off that the rational Fe needs it to be too explicit, or else the creative Si is asking for it to be shown too explicitly too.

[diljs]

what subtype is your friend's ENTp, redbaron?

I could see how this would affect the ENTp's tolerance for lack of expression or need for certain things.

I read the whole thread and I was struck again by the fact that an Fe type will get what they need or want from a Ti type one way, in the form of expressing appreciation emotionally. I *am* very appreciative.

Yes, Give me and I'll give you all the you want.

I'll give you pretty much anything you want actually.

Mmmmmm.......

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I don't follow cultures or social norms, I create my own. I don't know how I do this, but I seem to do it. If I go to a place and I'm not the leader in some way - or working with whoever is in power, I get annoyed. I do absolutely horrible if the people in charge don't like me, I can't stand it. Maybe this is my way of being upset about not fitting in without actually having to admit that.

Maybe I just have a natural leadership drive that has nothing to do with socionics... Oh well though.

And yes, the only reason why I don't have any power here is because Expat doesn't like me and I have no idea how to get him to like me, without not being myself... but of course if he *did* like me, I'd have more power here since he has power. We are mere reflections of who has the most power. If whoever is in charge likes us, we will fit in and feel loved- otherwise we will feel outcasty and horrible. (It's also why you assholes drove Herzy away when she was one of the only cool ones here! grrr) I just think this boils down to a 'its just human nature' thing.

But to me, being myself has to be more important than power, so I still refuse to work the system even if it will get me more respect here.

[FDG]

That's interesting because I don't have either of these yearnings. Cultures are not interesting to me because I'd rather create my own culture i.e. I don't feel "a culture" can offer me anything which I can't figure out myself. About established roles...I don't believe anything is really established nor do I want to be restricted by the limitations of a role. I want a sort of free role in a non established but still effective environment. I dislike it when I am put into a "role" which limits my actions. Thus we are not identicals Anyways, I can see how an ESFj could match your interests.

Yeah, it's interesting for me to read this thread, because I do not yearn either for these type of experiences. Cultures seem to be too ever-changing for me to have an interest in them; I prefer to learn about this that are (at least apparently) non-changing (ex. I'm very interested in other countries geography, climate, rivers, seas, etc)

[XoX]

Yeah, it's interesting for me to read this thread, because I do not yearn either for these type of experiences. Cultures seem to be too ever-changing for me to have an interest in them; I prefer to learn about this that are (at least apparently) non-changing (ex. I'm very interested in other countries geography, climate, rivers, seas, etc)

I find the river Amazon itself much more interesting than the cultures living around the river. Is it this kind of things you are referring to?