Some possible famous/celebrity LIEs-ENTjs (reboot)

[aestrivex]

rick has katherine hepburn and spencer tracy typed as IEE-SLI pair.

i don't know a thing about either of them.

[astralsilky]

More ENTjs

Orlando Bloom



Ioan Gruffudd



(Compare with Peter Sellers ~ there ya go, the projected Pink Panther - an ENTj caricature.)

And as asserted on www.socionics.com, I affirm

Robert Downey Jr.



And even though he was proposed as ENTp on another site, the following fellow v.i.'s just like two people I've known well for years in terms of eyes and facial expressions more than physical features. One tests ENTj, the other ESTj - and they both very well could be ENTj, as both manifest ENTj behavior. This celeb does NOT v.i. like the ENTp's I've known, who clearly test so and manifest clear ENTp behavior. So I'll risk the suggestion ... here he is!!!

Jeff Goldblum



[hr:3844817935]

Mmmmm, now THERE's a zesty little list.

[astralsilky]

More ENTjs

Orlando Bloom



Ioan Gruffudd



(Compare with Peter Sellers ~ there ya go, the projected Pink Panther - an ENTj caricature.)

And as asserted on www.socionics.com, I affirm

Robert Downey Jr.



And even though he was proposed as ENTp on another site, the following fellow v.i.'s just like two people I've known well for years in terms of eyes and facial expressions more than physical features. One tests ENTj, the other ESTj - and they both very well could be ENTj, as both manifest ENTj behavior. This celeb does NOT v.i. like the ENTp's I've known, who clearly test so and manifest clear ENTp behavior. So I'll risk the suggestion ... here he is!!!

Jeff Goldblum



[hr:3844817935]

Mmmmm, now THERE's a zesty little list.

[FDG]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

I agree on Goldblum, too. He looks like another ENTj professor I've recently took a class of.

Orlando Bloom always had an F vibe to me.

[FDG]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

I agree on Goldblum, too. He looks like another ENTj professor I've recently took a class of.

Orlando Bloom always had an F vibe to me.

[implied]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far (i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.) actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

[implied]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far (i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.) actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

[Expat]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

[Expat]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

[implied]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

you do, as well! and i do appreciate your efforts. i really do just think it's difficult to do since the F/T line blurs so much with ISXjs and ENXjs (like segolene royal and how a few people thought she might be ISFj based on god knows what, the fact that she isn't super masculine?) i just think an ISTj woman would be perceivably more -ish, like an ENFj almost, and would probably take on that role somewhat, which seems easy to explain. same thing with jodie foster and the "why isn't she ISFj?" bits. reading a bit about her made ENTj more likely than ISFj, although she's still quite feminine and what not.

[implied]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

you do, as well! and i do appreciate your efforts. i really do just think it's difficult to do since the F/T line blurs so much with ISXjs and ENXjs (like segolene royal and how a few people thought she might be ISFj based on god knows what, the fact that she isn't super masculine?) i just think an ISTj woman would be perceivably more -ish, like an ENFj almost, and would probably take on that role somewhat, which seems easy to explain. same thing with jodie foster and the "why isn't she ISFj?" bits. reading a bit about her made ENTj more likely than ISFj, although she's still quite feminine and what not.

[eunice]

I have to say that astrasilky is really good at VI-ing people.

[eunice]

I have to say that astrasilky is really good at VI-ing people.

[astralsilky]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far

Thank you for your confirmations, guys! (Eunice, too!) It's very encouraging. I've studied this a lot, but on my own, without much outside validation 'til now.

(i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.)

I totally agree - especially for other sites - hence, my attempts thus far.

actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

:wink:

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

[astralsilky]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far

Thank you for your confirmations, guys! (Eunice, too!) It's very encouraging. I've studied this a lot, but on my own, without much outside validation 'til now.

(i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.)

I totally agree - especially for other sites - hence, my attempts thus far.

actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

:wink:

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

[aestrivex]

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

why would you need to know who we are to evaluate our contributions?


or are you referring to the people being typed...?

[aestrivex]

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

why would you need to know who we are to evaluate our contributions?


or are you referring to the people being typed...?

[Exodus]

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Wouldn't he have to be some Fe type?

"There was nothing he liked so much as flattery, or, to put it more plainly, adulation; the coarser and clumsier it was, the more he relished it ... His vanity, which was perpetually nourished–for even preachers used to praise him to his face from the pulpit–was the cause of the aggrandisement of his Ministers."

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like he valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

[Exodus]

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Wouldn't he have to be some Fe type?

"There was nothing he liked so much as flattery, or, to put it more plainly, adulation; the coarser and clumsier it was, the more he relished it ... His vanity, which was perpetually nourished–for even preachers used to praise him to his face from the pulpit–was the cause of the aggrandisement of his Ministers."

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like he valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

[Expat]

I really, really doubt that Kate Moss is ENTj. I think INFp is likely.

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

That's a very sweeping statement, I can't agree with it.

Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol

I really don't think ENTj is the best type for Newton.

Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.

1) Your point about Caesar being more concerned about his reputation than with efficiency is not borne out by historical evidence
2) He did not "get away" with breaking traditions - he was murdered for that; and that is really not an argument for ESFp>ENTj.

Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.

I am extremely familiar with Roman history, and that is why I see that he was more likely ENTj.

10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)

A devotion to duty may be Ti or Fi, depending on the motivations for said duty. In Augustus's case, it was about destroying Caesar's murderers. He also banished his own daughter Julia - his only child - for adultery, as well as, later, Julia's daughter, for the same reason. That is more Fi than Ti. The Ti = duty is more of a ISTj Fi role thing.

16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders

He was often sea-sick. Not type related.

17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically

That was Antony's political weak point. What does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj?

23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"

Same question - what does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj? That theatrical behavior - if reported correctly - does not sound ENTj, but neither does it sound INTj. As for not attempting to reconquer Germania, he had lost 3 legions and decided that, strategically, it made no sense. So why is that an argument for INTj and against ENTj?

25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"

Same question - do you think that ENTjs would praise recklessness?

33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.

Being a judge was part of his job description; his focus on the family morals could be seen as either Ti or Fi.

53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.

That sounds like a dislike for Fe, which is an argument for ENTj.

66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever

Which is a Fi>Fe characteristic, especially Fe role, and also characteristic of ENTjs and actually of the Gamma quadra generally (ESFps make acquaintances easily, not necessarily friends).

68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.

A lot of ENTjs are adverse to physical activity, and Augustus was physically fragile. Also, that was a political insult, not necessarily how most people perceived him.

72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world

Which shows little regard for Si and Fe. Excellent argument for ENTj.

93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.

It can be interpreted in many ways.

76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)

Again, that is an excellent point for ENTj, little concern for Si and Fe. As for your comment on "extroverts", you are going for MBTI definition of "extroversion", not Socionics. ENTjs dislike Fe social occasions.

He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.

First, this is incorrect since he did expand the empire -- a lot. Second, to realize that expansion should stop can be Se, or Te, or lots of other things.

Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.

Yes and all of that suggests Fi of the Gamma sort. Again ENTj.

Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.

In a public figure, expected to appear personally in the Senate etc, it's not easy to hide sickliness.

You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj

No, I mentioned that because someone said that he disliked giving speeches, acted behind the scenes, etc. I was just disproving that point. It's not necessarily an argument for ENTj as such.

so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.

Then let's go to Tacitus instead:

13.3 : The dictator Caesar rivalled the greatest orators, and Augustus had an easy and fluent way of speaking, such as became a sovereign. Tiberius too thoroughly understood the art of balancing words, and was sometimes forcible in the expression of his thoughts, or else intentionally obscure. Even Caius Caesar's disordered intellect did not wholly mar his faculty of speech. Nor did Claudius, when he spoke with preparation, lack elegance.

Anyway, Bill Gates is ENTj and he does not have particularly good public speaking skills, so it's not really an useful discussion.

---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Then I suggest that revise your understanding of what an ENTj is, such as the notion that ENTjs are necessarily "extroverted" in the social-outgoing definition as in MBTI.

Louis XIV: That guy was all Fe and Se with zero Ni. Nothing at all ENTj about him. No ENTj, I daresay, would have built Versailles and set up a system where he had to get up, and go to sleep, at precisely the same hour every day, and have his meals in public.

What makes ENTj a likely type for Augustus, much more so than those individual traits you listed, is the following global charateristics:

- he always took a long-term vision in pursuing his goals, which he did relentlessly - that's a Ni-Se quadra value
- his marriage to Livia is a typical description of ENTj-ISFj marriage - even that people gossiped that she ordered him around, and was seen as a stern and strong-willed figure
- his motivations in destroying his enemies, avenging Caesar's murder, and punishing his own daughter, are all Gamma Fi
- his dislike for obvious flattery and excessive socializing indicate low regard for Fe, so again Gamma
- he acted very proactively in everything, which is a characteristic of EJ temperament

etc etc

[Expat]

I really, really doubt that Kate Moss is ENTj. I think INFp is likely.

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

That's a very sweeping statement, I can't agree with it.

Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol

I really don't think ENTj is the best type for Newton.

Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.

1) Your point about Caesar being more concerned about his reputation than with efficiency is not borne out by historical evidence
2) He did not "get away" with breaking traditions - he was murdered for that; and that is really not an argument for ESFp>ENTj.

Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.

I am extremely familiar with Roman history, and that is why I see that he was more likely ENTj.

10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)

A devotion to duty may be Ti or Fi, depending on the motivations for said duty. In Augustus's case, it was about destroying Caesar's murderers. He also banished his own daughter Julia - his only child - for adultery, as well as, later, Julia's daughter, for the same reason. That is more Fi than Ti. The Ti = duty is more of a ISTj Fi role thing.

16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders

He was often sea-sick. Not type related.

17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically

That was Antony's political weak point. What does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj?

23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"

Same question - what does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj? That theatrical behavior - if reported correctly - does not sound ENTj, but neither does it sound INTj. As for not attempting to reconquer Germania, he had lost 3 legions and decided that, strategically, it made no sense. So why is that an argument for INTj and against ENTj?

25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"

Same question - do you think that ENTjs would praise recklessness?

33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.

Being a judge was part of his job description; his focus on the family morals could be seen as either Ti or Fi.

53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.

That sounds like a dislike for Fe, which is an argument for ENTj.

66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever

Which is a Fi>Fe characteristic, especially Fe role, and also characteristic of ENTjs and actually of the Gamma quadra generally (ESFps make acquaintances easily, not necessarily friends).

68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.

A lot of ENTjs are adverse to physical activity, and Augustus was physically fragile. Also, that was a political insult, not necessarily how most people perceived him.

72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world

Which shows little regard for Si and Fe. Excellent argument for ENTj.

93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.

It can be interpreted in many ways.

76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)

Again, that is an excellent point for ENTj, little concern for Si and Fe. As for your comment on "extroverts", you are going for MBTI definition of "extroversion", not Socionics. ENTjs dislike Fe social occasions.

He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.

First, this is incorrect since he did expand the empire -- a lot. Second, to realize that expansion should stop can be Se, or Te, or lots of other things.

Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.

Yes and all of that suggests Fi of the Gamma sort. Again ENTj.

Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.

In a public figure, expected to appear personally in the Senate etc, it's not easy to hide sickliness.

You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj

No, I mentioned that because someone said that he disliked giving speeches, acted behind the scenes, etc. I was just disproving that point. It's not necessarily an argument for ENTj as such.

so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.

Then let's go to Tacitus instead:

13.3 : The dictator Caesar rivalled the greatest orators, and Augustus had an easy and fluent way of speaking, such as became a sovereign. Tiberius too thoroughly understood the art of balancing words, and was sometimes forcible in the expression of his thoughts, or else intentionally obscure. Even Caius Caesar's disordered intellect did not wholly mar his faculty of speech. Nor did Claudius, when he spoke with preparation, lack elegance.

Anyway, Bill Gates is ENTj and he does not have particularly good public speaking skills, so it's not really an useful discussion.

---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Then I suggest that revise your understanding of what an ENTj is, such as the notion that ENTjs are necessarily "extroverted" in the social-outgoing definition as in MBTI.

Louis XIV: That guy was all Fe and Se with zero Ni. Nothing at all ENTj about him. No ENTj, I daresay, would have built Versailles and set up a system where he had to get up, and go to sleep, at precisely the same hour every day, and have his meals in public.

What makes ENTj a likely type for Augustus, much more so than those individual traits you listed, is the following global charateristics:

- he always took a long-term vision in pursuing his goals, which he did relentlessly - that's a Ni-Se quadra value
- his marriage to Livia is a typical description of ENTj-ISFj marriage - even that people gossiped that she ordered him around, and was seen as a stern and strong-willed figure
- his motivations in destroying his enemies, avenging Caesar's murder, and punishing his own daughter, are all Gamma Fi
- his dislike for obvious flattery and excessive socializing indicate low regard for Fe, so again Gamma
- he acted very proactively in everything, which is a characteristic of EJ temperament

etc etc

[Expat]

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like [Louis XIV] valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

That makes more sense, but the problem with ENFj is that Louis XIV loved a very routine, preset daily schedule, and he loved getting involved in every possible detail of government. ISTj makes more sense than ENFj.

[Expat]

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like [Louis XIV] valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

That makes more sense, but the problem with ENFj is that Louis XIV loved a very routine, preset daily schedule, and he loved getting involved in every possible detail of government. ISTj makes more sense than ENFj.

[Expat]

King Hussein of Jordan



Longer-term strategic vision. Fairly benevolent monarch, concerned with economic development (without any oil), but ruthless on occasion. Accessible and "democratic" on a person-to-person level, also enjoyed traveling incognito in Europe. According to Wikipedia, liked to do a Dr. Evil impersonation when in meetings with military contractors (emotivist). Had what seemed to be a dual marriage with Queen Noor, who seems ISFj.

[Expat]

George Romero, creator of the Night of the Living Dead movies




I think ENTj makes perfect sense, although not without some problems.

[stevENTj]

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

I appear EJ to a lot of people but I'm not EJ.

[Exodus]

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

I appear EJ to a lot of people but I'm not EJ.

Prove it.

[Expat]

Camille Paglia

[FDG]

Camille Paglia

Nooo she has no logic

[Expat]

Nooo she has no logic

She has lots of Te.

Ok, which type would you suggest?

[FDG]

Nooo she has no logic

She has lots of Te.

Ok, which type would you suggest?

ENFj!

[Not A Communist Shill]

Simon Schama, some historian dude


Jeffrey Archer, disgraced peer and novelist .

[discojoe]

I feel silly for doing this, but upon further consideration:

C.S. Lewis

[Exodus]

I feel silly for doing this, but upon further consideration:

C.S. Lewis

Interesting.

[Expat]

ENFj!

Ok, that could make sense for Camille Paglia, but I'm still not sure where you see "no logic". Perhaps not from the Ti PoV, but she argues her points with Te and not Fe. Her criticism of Ann Coulter, for instance, is not about Coulter being ideologically wrong or saying wrong things or just being "in for the money" or whatever -- Paglia criticizes Coulter for not making her cases solidly enough in her books and being to careless with facts. Te confidence.

On Simon Schama: I can see that, although I tended to see INTp (but I've never seen him on video, I have to try it). One of his early books, on the French Revolution, Citizens, is essentially a Te-Ni view of the Revolution -- he doesn't give a shit about the "ideological purity"; he remarks how the French monarchy under Louis XVI was already reforming before the revolution; and his "heros" seem to be guys like Turgot (ENTj imo) who were trying to solve the economic issues.

Jeffrey Archer: could be.

CS Lewis: why?

[FDG]

ENFj!

Ok, that could make sense for Camille Paglia, but I'm still not sure where you see "no logic". Perhaps not from the Ti PoV, but she argues her points with Te and not Fe. Her criticism of Ann Coulter, for instance, is not about Coulter being ideologically wrong or saying wrong things or just being "in for the money" or whatever -- Paglia criticizes Coulter for not making her cases solidly enough in her books and being to careless with facts. Te confidence.

Uhm, I guess I was referring to other instance, for example when she arguments the basic differences between the man's nature (rationality) and the woman's nature (irrationality) and how men overtook society and placed rationality as its foundation in order to subtly oppress women via the logical implication if women are irrational, if we repress irrationality we will indirectly repress them; I know at least 2 INFps that take this stance of her very seriously and try to propagate it; in my opinion, the societal rationality Paglia speaks about is a representation of Te, and the irrationality is Fe, not Ti and Fi.

[Expat]

Uhm, I guess I was referring to other instance, for example when she arguments the basic differences between the man's nature (rationality) and the woman's nature (irrationality) and how men overtook society and placed rationality as its foundation in order to subtly oppress women via the logical implication if women are irrational, if we repress irrationality we will indirectly repress them; I know at least 2 INFps that take this stance of her very seriously and try to propagate it; in my opinion, the societal rationality Paglia speaks about is a representation of Te, and the irrationality is Fe, not Ti and Fi.

Ah. I think her views of man's and woman's natures and their influences on society are more complicated than that, but for typing her I focused not on particular theories but on interviews and articles on ongoing events. Anyway, yes, her "irrationality" would be more Fe, which goes against ENFj since, despite being a woman, she actually likes the "male" Te rationality.

Anyway, I'm a bit biased because I had a brief e-mail exchange ages ago on the emperor Diocletian with her

Here are some cases for ENTj:

"I don't like all this hand-holding where people have groups and say how fabulous they all are. And what the gay people do now is think 'we are the cool people now in high school. we're cool because we're gay.' I hate that!

She was appointed as my faculty advisor in her first term. I went in for my advisorial visit and she was entirely herself, talking very fast about many things I knew nothing about. I ran in fear. Alas, I was too puzzled to take any of her classes, which seemed to be full of very sophisticated people from LA and from New York.[31]

– Professor Mark W. Edmundson

"She was thought of as peculiar. She was so full of excitement and so intense. She would light one cigarette and then forget about it and light another, so she was waving two cigarettes. I think people took her quite lightly, she was thought of as eccentric."

– Author Heidi Schmidt, former student of Paglia

She was a student when I was at my first job at Bennington in the 70s, and I saw her up close. And I know what she knows. I mean, she transferred from there, to Yale, and her background in anything is absolutely minimal. She started a career in philosophy, abandoned that, and has been taken as this sort of major philosophical thinker by people in literary criticism. But has she ever made any exploration of science? For her to be dismissing biology, and to say gender is totally socially constructed — where are her readings, her studies? It's all gameplay, wordplay, and her work is utterly pernicious, a total dead-end."[32]

– Paglia, on poststructuralist feminist Judith Butler

I'll stick with Ni-ENTj for the moment

[implied]

god, same idea on paglia. i nearly suggested her to you in an PM, expat. have always loved her!

[Expat]

have always loved her!

And she loves me -- she called my comments on longer-term trends in the Roman Empire "a lucid overview".

[discojoe]

CS Lewis: why?

I don't know--it's just what I FEEL. Go here and read some quotes, and you might FEEL it too.

This is the terrible fix we are in. If the universe is not governed by an absolute goodness, then all our efforts are in the long run hopeless. But if it is, then we are making ourselves enemies to that goodness every day, and are not in the least likely to do any better tomorrow, and so our case is hopeless again....God is the only comfort, He is also the supreme terror: the thing we most need and the thing we most want to hide from.

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

The most dangerous thing you can do is to take any one impulse of your own nature and set it up as the thing you ought to follow at all costs. There's not one of them which won't make us into devils if we set it up as an absolute guide. You might think love of humanity in general was safe, but it isn't. If you leave out justice you'll find yourself breaking agreements and faking evidence in trials "for the sake of humanity" and become in the end a cruel and treacherous man.

I thought I saw how stories of this kind could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood. Why did one find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or about the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But supposing that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday school associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could.

"But what does it all mean?" asked Susan when they were somewhat calmer. — "It means," said Aslan, "that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of Time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

"Perhaps you will get some idea of it if you think like this. You may have been in a room in which there was a window that looked out on a lovely bay of the sea or a green valley that wound away amoung the mountains. And in the wall of that room opposite to the glass there may have been a looking glass. And the sea in the mirror, or the valley in the mirror, were in one sense just the same as the real ones: yet at the same time they were somehow different — deeper, more wonderful, more like places in a story: in a story you have never heard but very much want to know. The difference between the old Narnia and the new Narnia was like that. The new one was a deeper country: every rock and flower and blade of grass looked like it meant more. I can't describe it any better than that: if you ever get there you will know what I mean. It was the unicorn who summed up what everyone was feeling. He stamped his right fore-hoof on the ground and neighed, and then cried: "I have come home at last! This is my real country! I belong here. This is the land I have been looking for all my life, though I never knew it till now. The reason why we loved the old Narnia so much is because it sometimes looked a little like this. Bree-hee-hee! Come further up, come further in!"

The Value of myth is that it takes all the things you know and restores to them the rich significance which has been hidden by the veil of familiarity.

You can almost hear Jor'El saying these lines.

Also, Lewis was a very LOUD person who went to a pub every Tuesday with Tolkien and SHOUTED AT HIM until he was thrown out into the street.