Friedrich Nietzsche

[Desert Financial]

@Bertrand I get that Nietzsche had deeper reasons for using the tools of rhetoric he used. For instance, on reason why he sung virtues for people who live in seemingly paradoxical ways is because he thought that life was best lived when one embraces each extreme. The good, the bad, the ugly. Such a way of living, as suggested by the above writing, entails "fullness" or "completeness."

But his usage of these synthetic statements isn't limited to Thus Spake Zarathustra; they're in the Antichrist, too - even when he discusses separate matters. So, I don't think his synthetic way of thinking depends solely on one particular, external point of origin. The employment of paradox pervades his work because he naturally processes information this way.

You say that the interpretation of his work as paradox reflects on the reader.

I say that the interpretation of the term "paradox" reflects on the reader. It doesn't have to denote negativity or cheapness.

[Bertrand]

@Bertrand I get that Nietzsche had deeper reasons for using the tools of rhetoric he used. For instance, on reason why he sung virtues for people who live in seemingly paradoxical ways is because he thought that life was best lived when one embraces each extreme. The good, the bad, the ugly. Such a way of living, as suggested by the above writing, entails "fullness" or "completeness."

But his usage of these synthetic statements isn't limited to Thus Spake Zarathustra; they're in the Antichrist, too - even when he discusses separate matters. So, I don't think his synthetic way of thinking depends solely on one particular, external point of origin. The employment of paradox pervades his work because he naturally processes information this way.

You say that the interpretation of his work as paradox reflects on the reader.

I say that the interpretation of the term "paradox" reflects on the reader. It doesn't have to denote negativity or cheapness.

yeah I agree, but the better term would be dialectical. paradoxical is incomplete and misleading if you leave it at that

[Desert Financial]

pardon me for not fully reading the article, and for not being the person you asked, but:

i dont think that moment is type-related at all. it seems to me to you're essentially suggesting by asking this question in this way that "logical types" cannot ever be emotional. especially given it is universally accepted he was at or on the brink or even currently experiencing significant mental/emotional duress - during such times i argue all 'usual', 'normal', standard, expected, and so on, constraints of typology go out the window.

I understand what you mean, but read the article:

I understand why Nietzsche hugged the horse's head. Life is hard. It is not fair. It is filled with rapturous beautiful moments and it all ends much, much too quickly. When we look around and see so many people who are unnecessarily cruel, or mindless, or oblivious to inequities; when see our brothers and neighbors exhaling their numbered breaths in ways that add to the pain or take from the sympathy, we see a world that is, in fact, more absurd and nihilistic than anything the philosopher wrote or said or thought. To see these mindless cruelties playout before him was simply too much for the philosopher to bear; especially when the remedy, the antidote - even our purpose for being here - is so very clear.

[Desert Financial]

i dont see why emotional desperation is beyond the bounds of a T type. certainly, i would agree they have a higher threshold, but all humans have a breaking point (save for psycho/whatever-paths, maybe?) - which can be triggered by anything (so what seems to you "oh thats small, he had not much troubles" could have regardless been the straw that broke the camel's back so thus made all his troubles come spilling out dam-collapsing style).

Did I say that emotional desperation is beyond the bounds of a T type?

The salience lies in his reasons for having a breakdown in the first place. Hugging a horse in response to a man's punishment is only a reflection of those reasons.

I will give you that I could have phrased my question with greater nuance, though.

Also, are you an Fi ego type?

[Desert Financial]

apologies if i put words in your mouth.

am I Fi ego: that seems to be the majority opinion by others here. it's possible.

No worries.

[Olimpia]

Hey Olimpia.

I voted ILI like you did, but wanted to bounce an idea off of you.

What do you think the likelihood is that a logical type would hug a horse when on the verge of a nervous breakdown?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...he-horses-head

Good question. I have known about that story... It could be an irrational expression of Fi HA – to love. Hah.

[Ave]

DA cognition and ego.

I would argue ILI because he was so drawn to his inner world and wasn't really into influencing society the way EIE would be.

[Bertrand]

I feel like some of you have never met a real ILI, on one hand people will say trent reznor is ILI and on the other Nietzsche was not outgoing enough to be EIE

real ILIs are super autistic and logical, they don't understand human relationships

whereas EIE understands humanity so well humans can't even understand what EIE told them about themselves for a hundred years

meanwhile because EIE is misunderstood they're made out to be in the ILI camp because they're perceived as being below the norm in their own time

charles sanders pierce is a good example of a real ILI on the level of Nietzsche

[Ave]

Does that mean you type Nietzsche as ILI?

Ftr I don't see Trent Reznor as being outgoing at all.

I think EIEs need an audience much more than ILIs do, and Nietzsche, having lived the solitary life he did, doesn't strike me as having sought an audience.

It is possible he was deprived of an audience for whatever reason.

He just seemed so introverted, not only in terms of behaviors (though he was introverted there, too) but also in terms of his attitude.

There are ILIs with various levels of emotional intelligence, they're mostly not "autistic" per se.

[The Reality Denialist]

Well, a person who seems to have next to no emotional expression and seems bit awkward is usually quite surely an ILI. Sometimes they can lot more extroverted and exhibit short explosive rages. Still lots of them are probably quite balanced and blend in quite well.

They can be found in mathematical institutions most easily if someone is looking for extremes. Some of them tend to start from the tiniest details and soon loose everyone giving very bad performances in that realm towards common crowds. What makes sense to them and etc. Maybe Stanley Kubrick was one? He was a total detail freak ̣- just read about him. OTOH there are overall better functioning ILI's.

[Ave]

I personally find LIIs more unemotional than ILIs.

ILIs I know aeren't likely to be tactful or compromise expressing their thoughts for hurt feelings. But they do seem to have a minimum of emotionality in social situations, whereas LIIs do not show emotions unless you happen to bring up something that interests them - then their emotions become hard to control.

EIE for Nietzsche is interesting, but if that is the case it seems like he wasn't really realizing his own dominant function by living in the woods of Sils-Maria and contemplating nature. But perhaps I'm missing something and the dominant function can sometimes realize itself in more subtle ways, or not realize itself well at all. If he was EIE he seems to have behaved unusually for one is all I'm saying. Not that type is about behaviors, but behavior can help pinpoint type, at least by eliminating types which behave very differently from one another.

[para]

Nietzsche is beta Fe exemplified i think - reread Lies and Truth in Extramoral Sense. Also i think his 'freeness' of spirit not constrained by complacency but virility and flux is very Se HA.

[Breather]

LIE-Ni 5w6 sp/sx

[Bertrand]

I think the misunderstanding is people associate Fe with social activity without realizing Fe Ni is humanitarian not social and there's a big difference. when Fe is called "abstracted" when blocked with Ni, philosophy is exactly what you get--emotional ideas (obviously Ti base v Fe base is going to be a little different, but there are both trends in philosophy). Si is considered "demonstrative" behavior--especially in the creative block, because it realizes Se as a byproduct. its essentially a form of generating those in the moment impressions that have a lot of impact, whereas Ni occurs over time and realizes far flung possibilities. think of the relationship of Fe with respect to Si/Ni creative as being precisely this: social impact via demonstrative behavior vs humanitarian impact via imagined future possibilities presented in abstract form. the idea of him needing to realize his Fe by acting gregarious and so forth is more creative work for Si

[Breather]

People ride off Nietzsches dick too much, dude does fuck all and I mean fuck all.
Does he help you all strive for happiness and an ideal life? Nope
Does he help you with anything? Nope
He doesn't do fuck all for me I don't give a flying fuck no more haha

[Skepsis]

20181005_203049.jpg

[Number 9 large]

EII 4w5

[Metamorph]

Nietzsche provides something strange for people who like to read to talk about. I have no idea why anyone would try to follow the generalized philosophy he laid out since it clearly drove him insane and that's the opposite of what philosophy is supposed to do. He should've just played piano with Wagner and whatever he wanted to instead of trying to reframe life as an opera and get outside of it and rot alive from too much thinking and no activity. Giving Fritz a type is an insult to that type.

[Metamorph]

It is possible he was deprived of an audience for whatever reason.

He just seemed so introverted, not only in terms of behaviors (though he was introverted there, too) but also in terms of his attitude.

There are ILIs with various levels of emotional intelligence, they're mostly not "autistic" per se.

He gave up on music and wrote an interesting but completely useless philosophy instead which drove him insane and people think is commonly-quoted and rarely-understood because it's great rather than because most people trying to understand it seem to get taken down with it while quoting it to regular people. Sounds like someone who wants an audience to me.

[RBRS]

He gave up on music and wrote an interesting but completely useless philosophy instead which drove him insane and people think is commonly-quoted and rarely-understood because it's great rather than because most people trying to understand it seem to get taken down with it while quoting it to regular people. Sounds like someone who wants an audience to me.

It is clear that he was looking for a "distinguished" audience.

The fact is that he wrote to find a specific audience, who understood what he was writing and what he was trying to convey (or, rather, a circlejerk of people who think they understand and who have feelings of superiority for it whether they follow Evola or Deleuze) but I doubt that is enough to determine that he was EIE.

[SGF]

It is clear that he was looking for a "distinguished" audience.

The fact is that he wrote to find a specific audience, who understood what he was writing and what he was trying to convey (or, rather, a circlejerk of people who think they understand and who have feelings of superiority for it whether they follow Evola or Deleuze) but I doubt that is enough to determine that he was EIE.

He is a fisherman not a shepherd, same with Evola. Both quite quotable and relevant today.
what drove me to read them? NIHILISM and DESPAIR quite literally.
Ever since I played KOTR 2 as a teen I found Kreia as a character touched on something important.. in them I found something akin to her. Its weird... could be Ni is what drew me in.. some kind of light at the end of the bleak tunnel that is life.. maybe some sliver of meaning in an otherwise barren existence.

Relevant: https://medium.com/personal-growth/m...d-88bc8bcc9740

Lack of meaning leads to pessimism and nihilism, in turn leads to depression and apathy. Apathy = death.
I think @End is correct in viewing ppl trapped in that perspective/lifestyle and so on as "death cultists".. its literally what they are. Modern society is like a cancer eating itself.. I want to escape it tbh, to transcend it, to find meaning and not merely to survive, but to LIVE.

[SGF]

Also I want to bump something from previous pages: Jung /clearly/ states that Nietzsche is an example of Ti (ego or valuing) cognition in men, same as Kant. Heck, Nietzsche is actually listed as a 'more extreme example'. Apparently, according to Jung there is no sense of Te in him. None. Nada.

I also don't see Te (I see a lot of Ni and valuation of Ti), which points to beta (NF).

Yeah, for once I agree.
Kant is more LII, he clearly builds a system. Nietzsche tho is more lyrical and the structure isn't readily apparent.

[RBRS]

He is a fisherman not a shepherd, same with Evola. Both quite quotable and relevant today.
what drove me to read them? NIHILISM and DESPAIR quite literally.
Ever since I played KOTR 2 as a teen I found Kreia as a character touched on something important.. in them I found something akin to her. Its weird... could be Ni is what drew me in.. some kind of light at the end of the bleak tunnel that is life.. maybe some sliver of meaning in an otherwise barren existence.

Relevant: https://medium.com/personal-growth/m...d-88bc8bcc9740

Lack of meaning leads to pessimism and nihilism, in turn leads to depression and apathy. Apathy = death.
I think @End is correct in viewing ppl trapped in that perspective/lifestyle and so on as "death cultists".. its literally what they are. Modern society is like a cancer eating itself.. I want to escape it tbh, to transcend it, to find meaning and not merely to survive, but to LIVE.

I do not know if you have interpreted me correctly.
Sure, Nietzsche was not a leader, but he was looking for an audience and this is something reminiscent of all his works, he was looking for those who understood him correctly.

This has given rise to two main groups, on the one hand, those of "postmodern" and "Frankfurtist" philosophers who have castrated all content from his works and have rationalized their message to fit their own ideals. A great example of this is Deleuze's interpretation of Nietzsche (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niet...and_Philosophy).

The other group, perhaps more successful in their interpretations, is composed of third positionists and some trads, and they take the philosopher perhaps for his message as it is fundamentally. An example of this group can be found in the first chapters of Ride the tiger, by Julius Evola.

In any case, both groups may fall under my definition of circlejerk, because with Nietzsche's elitism and his sometimes interpretive texts it is practically impossible not to fall into a circlejerk.

For what I see in your comments, it seems like we have a very similar worldview.

[SGF]

I do not know if you have interpreted me correctly.
Sure, Nietzsche was not a leader, but he was looking for an audience and this is something reminiscent of all his works, he was looking for those who understood him correctly.

This has given rise to two main groups, on the one hand, those of "postmodern" and "Frankfurtist" philosophers who have castrated all content from his works and have rationalized their message to fit their own ideals. A great example of this is Deleuze's interpretation of Nietzsche (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niet...and_Philosophy).

The other group, perhaps more successful in their interpretations, is composed of third positionists and some trads, and they take the philosopher perhaps for his message as it is fundamentally. An example of this group can be found in the first chapters of Ride the tiger, by Julius Evola.

In any case, both groups may fall under my definition of circlejerk, because with Nietzsche's elitism and his sometimes interpretive texts it is practically impossible not to fall into a circlejerk.

For what I see in your comments, it seems like we have a very similar worldview.

Conflict persists as long as synthesis is not achieved.
History repeating itself. Doing the same thing and expecting different results. Insanity is what I see.

Never thought I'd use the below meme to express something about the current state of real life affairs.. but its rather fitting.

[Tarnished]

I don't understand why many people type Nietzsche as IEI. His philosophy is obviously Fe polr.

His idea is very simple: everyone should build their own way of life, their own moral system (master morality). Do not depend on something like "social's moralily" (slave) or religion/some irrelevant gods. Become stronger, get more power (superhuman) to freely do whatever you want/master (very Te-Se point of view of freedom) or remain weak and have your life depend on other's will and idea (like a slave).

He clearly did not create a system of faith that everyone must belive in, instead encourage everyone to build their own, clashing with each other to sharpen their system, to become "the strong". Of course if everyone do this, the world will become chaotic by countless of idea and system, and isn't chaos what Gamma enjoy?

The term "Master and slave" is very misunderstood by many people. He use it as a tool to express his ideas, not to sort people into some group. He valued independence, individualily.

ILI Ni for sure.

[The Reality Denialist]

Fi is the conventional static moral just as Ti is conventional static logic. One can not just simply destroy those entities and expect to get something that works in a way that never clashes with their worldview. Those who fail at following those principles are not good at those.

There are certainly interesting cases like Gödel who wanted to bring down the the very thing he was professing but only managed to show limits. This was highly functional ego driven attack. Did N-man produce something similar?

[Tarnished]

Fi is static but it doesn't necessary force other to have the same point of view, it just care about it self. And from my point of view: when two person with different beliefs oppose each other, it's not about right or wrong, it's about who stronger will get what they want (of course Alpha who like to debate instead of fighting will disagree with me :v), and who weaker get beaten... Te will get what Fi want

Fi doesn't care much about right or wrong in a logical way, but how it feel from deep inside. It's much more subjective than Ti.

And for Nietzsche, he respects people whose have their own value - way of life, that's his Fi.

[raTG13]

He's like the unofficial mascot for gamma.

[lkdhf qkb]

I don't understand why many people type Nietzsche as IEI. His philosophy is obviously Fe polr.

His idea is very simple: everyone should build their own way of life, their own moral system (master morality). Do not depend on something like "social's moralily" (slave) or religion/some irrelevant gods. Become stronger, get more power (superhuman) to freely do whatever you want/master (very Te-Se point of view of freedom) or remain weak and have your life depend on other's will and idea (like a slave).

Nietzsche is like the most ILI you can get in philosophy. Gammas are great because they focus so much on empowerment which can make them able to achieve great things if they have their hearts in the right place. Problem is that while they focus on becoming masters of external issues, they often stay slaves to their own passions. Sometimes gammas think accepting they can't always shape the world to their feelings is "slavery" when it's wisdom and self-mastery.

"If you don't get what you want, you suffer; if you get what you don't want, you suffer; even when you get exactly what you want you still suffer because you can't hold onto it forever".

Fi is static but it doesn't necessary force other to have the same point of view, it just care about it self.

Fi is just the ability to know what you care about emotionally and what you don't. It could be only yourself, your family, or the whole world. Egoism hasn't anything to do with Fi.

[Aria]

Nietzsche is like the most ILI you can get in philosophy. Gammas are great because they focus so much on empowerment which can make them able to achieve great things if they have their hearts in the right place. Problem is that while they focus on becoming masters of external issues, they often stay slaves to their own passions. Sometimes gammas think accepting they can't always shape the world to their feelings is "slavery" when it's wisdom and self-mastery.

"If you don't get what you want, you suffer; if you get what you don't want, you suffer; even when you get exactly what you want you still suffer because you can't hold onto it forever".


Fi is just the ability to know what you care about emotionally and what you don't. It could be only yourself, your family, or the whole world. Egoism hasn't anything to do with Fi.

This was insightful.

[khcs]

Friedrich Nietzsche - ISTJ Gorky

[Grendel]

yeah he hated fun in every form, essence of ILI

[SGF]

EIE or IEI

He is too dramatic and reaches the wrong conclusion after identifying the zeitgeist's main problem correctly (shitty Ti). In the end he becomes the victim of his own flawed thinking.

[Tarnished]

EIE or IEI

He is too dramatic and reaches the wrong conclusion after identifying the zeitgeist's main problem correctly (shitty Ti). In the end he becomes the victim of his own flawed thinking.

What conclusion do you think is wrong? Maybe it's just the differences of each Quadra"s value. Nietzsche may used Ti to analyse this and that to help him make his point, but he did not value Ti at all.

Nietzsche's failure was because he's thinking too much and forgot how to enjoy life here and now. Typical Ni dom when they dig too much into their Ni and forget that they still have a weak but value Se await.

[SGF]

What conclusion do you think is wrong? Maybe it's just the differences of each Quadra"s value. Nietzsche may used Ti to analyse this and that to help him make his point, but he did not value Ti at all.

In it's most positive formulation the superman as put forth by Nietzsche is someone who is capable of living even in a nihilistic, devastated, absurd, godless world due to his ability to give himself arbitrary form/structure by subjective laws, in accordance with a new higher freedom. Most people however and it seems Nietzsche included are incapable of such an act. When faced with oblivion man is utterly alone and at the mercy of his own mind. Doubt creeps in and he rots from the inside out. We have killed God and failed to become Gods ourselves.

The answer to nihilism is hazy and dangerous, relies utterly on strength, but man is weak and flawed and even the few truly great are flawed. So it is not a solution. Nietzsche himself had to suffer through this. He was the living example of how it would not work.

Nietzsche's failure was because he's thinking too much and forgot how to enjoy life here and now. Typical Ni dom when they dig too much into their Ni and forget that they still have a weak but value Se await

Its the opposite actually. Nietzsche says to enjoy life to the fullest, to be a mad adventurer and to truly live. He valued Se very highly, but he did not have good use of it himself.

“The secret of realizing the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment of existence is: to live dangerously! Build your cities on the slopes of Vesuvius! Send your ships out into uncharted seas! Live in conflict with your equals and with yourselves! Be robbers and ravagers as soon as you ca not be rulers and owners, you men of knowledge! The time will soon past when you could be content to live concealed int he woods like timid deer!” - Nietzsche.

This is really typical of EIE, who wants to live life to the fullest and constantly is in touch with the pulse of the zeitgeist, tapped in and clearly sees the coming pitfalls, in this case nihilism.

In the wasteland of modernity, the last man crawls upon the earth, an utter godless failure:



We sat in Babel's tower
And fought over the world
I never spoke the language
Of your saints and sinners
Of men nor beast
Who roamed this flat earth

Liars tongues seethe in fire
At the end of harsh white lines
We set the world to rights
Yet I awoke in the same black spirit state once again
And we sat in judgement in Babel's tower

[The Reality Denialist]

Fi is static but it doesn't necessary force other to have the same point of view, it just care about it self. And from my point of view: when two person with different beliefs oppose each other, it's not about right or wrong, it's about who stronger will get what they want (of course Alpha who like to debate instead of fighting will disagree with me :v), and who weaker get beaten... Te will get what Fi want

Fi doesn't care much about right or wrong in a logical way, but how it feel from deep inside. It's much more subjective than Ti.

And for Nietzsche, he respects people whose have their own value - way of life, that's his Fi.

I don't agree with Fi crap definitions. It just makes person to see the originator as holier than you just like Ti makes think it is right. Fi is not emotion it is an attitude towards object. When in higher order and high functioning it is should look into every aspects.

[InterPrizeWes]

Conflict persists as long as synthesis is not achieved.
History repeating itself. Doing the same thing and expecting different results. Insanity is what I see.

Never thought I'd use the below meme to express something about the current state of real life affairs.. but its rather fitting.

Yes, Nietzsche is a lot like George Lucas, having the offering from fate, God, the universe, or whatever you call it, somehow, Nietzsche and Lucas tapped into the divine source of emblems and totems in the wind, or the undertow of ideals to cast such a tasty light on these recurring elements of a classic story that can repeat all across the heavenly wave.

I Love Zarathustra for building man up to an impossible glory, to be brilliant, everlasting, triumphant, indomitable, eternal, to live an endless future forever. It's golden, it's inviting, it's great, the whole conjecture of self supremacy and the will to crush any boulder, to smash down the chains of defeat and engineer paradise with a concrete Rainbow ascending all the way to the sparkle dazzle sky castle.