duality

[Joy]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Now it's time for all the people who aren't with their dual or had a bad experience with their dual to jump down my throat.

[UDP]

"Providence has created myself to..."
agree with you, in this instance.



edit: hmm, I will offshoot your thread if I say that so early on.
I'll write it later.

[Creepy-bg]

I see where you coming from but don't like the thinking that someone without their dual is an incomplete person in some way... it just seems wrong on a few different levels (not the least of which is morally, like saying a handicapped person, a Jew, or a black guy isn't really a "full" person)

two people in duality may be happier and have a "fuller" perception of the world between them... but I wouldn't call that being more complete than not being in a dual relationship....

[Blaze]

kinda like a dual is a yin and yang symbol or something.

i've been thinking that duality is kind of like the ego functions of relationships. duality esp in an intimate relationship serves a a bedrock function in life, giving you a place of safety from which to face the greater risks and challenges of life. or something like that.

[Kim]

two people in duality may be happier and have a "fuller" perception of the world between them... but I wouldn't call that being more complete than not being in a dual relationship....

This will come as no surprise, but I really don't that people in duality are more content and would have a fuller perception of the world between them. I do think duality can make life easier and more comfortable (that I have indeed experienced), but other than that, it's idealized. There are no "pure" representatives of one type, so there is no such thing as being "ENFp incomplete" or "INTj incomplete" and so on.

I thought duality was comfortable, but not exciting. I was content (at times), but not happy. Now jump down MY throat! :wink:

[Expat]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Now it's time for all the people who aren't with their dual or had a bad experience with their dual to jump down my throat.

Immediately after my dual relationship was suddenly severed I felt as if half of my brain was missing.

[FDG]

two people in duality may be happier and have a "fuller" perception of the world between them... but I wouldn't call that being more complete than not being in a dual relationship....

This will come as no surprise, but I really don't that people in duality are more content and would have a fuller perception of the world between them. I do think duality can make life easier and more comfortable (that I have indeed experienced), but other than that, it's idealized. There are no "pure" representatives of one type, so there is no such thing as being "ENFp incomplete" or "INTj incomplete" and so on.

I thought duality was comfortable, but not exciting. I was content (at times), but not happy. Now jump down MY throat! :wink:

I guess that personal preferences play a part?

Think about it this way: given very compatible personal prferences in regard to jobs/travelling/etc, then duality is the most compatible relationship. Otherwise, not.

[Expat]

I guess that personal preferences play a part?

Think about it this way: given very compatible personal prferences in regard to jobs/travelling/etc, then duality is the most compatible relationship. Otherwise, not.

Sure, but I had a 2-year relationship with my super-ego. In terms of personal preferences - locations, levels of income, travelling, tastes for activities etc - there was no lack of compatibility. Yet it did not work, for reasons that can be usefully described as "socionics reasons".

[Mea]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Now it's time for all the people who aren't with their dual or had a bad experience with their dual to jump down my throat.

Immediately after my dual relationship was suddenly severed I felt as if half of my brain was missing.

I can't say I agree or disagree with Joy totally.
Basically, I feel that duals can help you a lot, but it doesn't mean that without them, life is incomplete.

[FDG]

I guess that personal preferences play a part?

Think about it this way: given very compatible personal prferences in regard to jobs/travelling/etc, then duality is the most compatible relationship. Otherwise, not.

Sure, but I had a 2-year relationship with my super-ego. In terms of personal preferences - locations, levels of income, travelling, tastes for activities etc - there was no lack of compatibility. Yet it did not work, for reasons that can be usefully described as "socionics reasons".

Yeah I meant that too, that other relationships even with all the factors are somewhat less likely to work, I guess.

[Expat]

Yeah I meant that too, that other relationships even with all the factors are somewhat less likely to work, I guess.

Well on that I have a general comment, which perhaps doesn't fit here but I may extend it elsewhere --

It depends on your experiences and expectations. My ESFj ex had already had at least one INTj boyfriend, probably even two. So she was used to a level of satisfaction that I could not easily provide, in terms of receptiveness to in order to generate positive . She had experience of duality, so she wasn't satisfied with super-ego -- even though in many respects we were a better match than she with her INTj ex. Also, I think her father was also INTj.

By contrast, I have met women who have repeatedly had Socionics-unfavorable relationships that don't last long, and they tend to go back to the same types -- because they have never experienced anything better, so they don't expect anything better.

Slacker Mom once said how she was difference from most of her married friends: while they kept droning on about "men" and the small fights and how that was "unavoidable" in a marriage, she would say "my husband and I don't fight, ever".

So, your experiences and expectations are also a factor in whether it will "work" or not -- and it depends on word "work".

[science as magic]

From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

I thought this was interesting but I don't think it is sufficient for delineations between rat/irat groups. I sort of think of any type x as an inversion of their conflictor (1/x) with their dual being similar along a different axis with their conflictor. So rat a would be say some variable x by some variable y with rat -a being its inversion a/b b/a being an example. In other words not only are duals possibly a unitype but any # of persons could be classified as such. A "subtype" of the one "full" personality type (some composition of all 16 + other variables I am sure). I prefer to let that which we view as whole remain variable however (it is best to think of a couple as either a combination of individuals and a single organism as neither of these explanations conflicts with the other and both describe different state properties of their respective subsets).

[FDG]

From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

I thought this was interesting but I don't think it is sufficient for delineations between rat/irat groups. I sort of think of any type x as an inversion of their conflictor (1/x) with their dual being similar along a different axis with their conflictor. So rat a would be say some variable x by some variable y with rat -a being its inversion a/b b/a being an example. In other words not only are duals possibly a unitype but any # of persons could be classified as such. A "subtype" of the one "full" personality type (some composition of all 16 + other variables I am sure). I prefer to let that which we view as whole remain variable however (it is best to think of a couple as either a combination of individuals and a single organism as neither of these explanations conflicts with the other and both describe different state properties of their respective subsets).

Aaha. I love this idea. It would be nice if we were able to form a web so that for example for every description of type say xabcd) where abcd are the properties we'd have ynota,notb,notc,notd) constructed in such a way so that the operation of inversion products the negation of the given set in the chosen space. Then we'd have to build the operators so that every type could be obtained by the negation of its conflictor in such a way so that its negation is compatible with the operator, say, SE which transforms a type into his superego by changing the properties. It is very hard and completely useless, but it sound kinda fun? Then see how the properties play out IRL so for example a certain situation is actually a transform and a given type placed in the given situation becomes another type etcccc

[science as magic]

This is why I think you're heh. The thing that I found is that actions, behaviors, ideas, traits, personality, whatever you want to call all of that stuff can be distributed along various functional vectors simultaneously and so socionical understanding breaks down after a certain point. For example "thinking" can be many different functions within different contexts. We even seem to use the word to describe irrational properties like body state alteration (such as when one "concentrates"). I would have gone further with it but I have no way to isolate the units that I have come to think of as the variables which demarcate persons and groups.

[Blaze]

Yeah I meant that too, that other relationships even with all the factors are somewhat less likely to work, I guess.

Well on that I have a general comment, which perhaps doesn't fit here but I may extend it elsewhere --

It depends on your experiences and expectations. My ESFj ex had already had at least one INTj boyfriend, probably even two. So she was used to a level of satisfaction that I could not easily provide, in terms of receptiveness to in order to generate positive . She had experience of duality, so she wasn't satisfied with super-ego -- even though in many respects we were a better match than she with her INTj ex. Also, I think her father was also INTj.

By contrast, I have met women who have repeatedly had Socionics-unfavorable relationships that don't last long, and they tend to go back to the same types -- because they have never experienced anything better, so they don't expect anything better.

Slacker Mom once said how she was difference from most of her married friends: while they kept droning on about "men" and the small fights and how that was "unavoidable" in a marriage, she would say "my husband and I don't fight, ever".

So, your experiences and expectations are also a factor in whether it will "work" or not -- and it depends on word "work".

Isn't your family of origin primarily Alpha, Expat? If so, then an alpha female would seem familiar and comfortable. This could be what is meant by Rick when he says that people choose relationships other than dual ones when there is an absence of duality in their childhoods. Speaking generally, if a person has not experienced duality then they do not know what to look for exactly.

I ask because my family of origin is mostly Delta, with the exception of one sibling who is an intj. My parents are my socionics supervisor and benefactor and I have another sibling, comparative. Ever since I've been interested in socionics, I've thought that a lot of my decisions early on were reactions to asymmetrical relations and/or quadra tensions. Especially since most of the men I've been involved with have been Beta, which puts me in the more favorable position. (not that any asymmetrical relations are really favorable). I know Delta really well so I know what to expect from delta folks, but they are not really that comfortable for me because of the asymmetrical thing, so instead of trying to find alpha, I go for beta, which is not quite right either.

I have been trying to use socionics to find my dual so I can evaluate whether or not it makes a difference. Not that I'm being scientific or anything, although that would be a side benefit. It's just that going through a divorce sucked big time and I'd rather put energy into getting it right from the get-go. I think the point is that you really have to have both: socionic complementarity and common interests and values. Both, not either. That's why it's so hard for us who haven't experience duality I think.

It would be really interesting to see if any research has been done in Russia on divorce. As in, is there a difference between the dual and non dual divorce rate? If there was a difference, then this theory could be applied in some pretty practical ways, so long as type validity could also be established.

[Rocky]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Joy, this post actually makes you sound crazy.

[Creepy-bg]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Joy, this post actually makes you sound crazy.

it's not the post

[Expat]

Isn't your family of origin primarily Alpha, Expat? If so, then an alpha female would seem familiar and comfortable. This could be what is meant by Rick when he says that people choose relationships other than dual ones when there is an absence of duality in their childhoods. Speaking generally, if a person has not experienced duality then they do not know what to look for exactly.

Yes, you're right and I fully agree with that. Totally.

I ask because my family of origin is mostly Delta, with the exception of one sibling who is an intj. My parents are my socionics supervisor and benefactor and I have another sibling, comparative. Ever since I've been interested in socionics, I've thought that a lot of my decisions early on were reactions to asymmetrical relations and/or quadra tensions. Especially since most of the men I've been involved with have been Beta, which puts me in the more favorable position. (not that any asymmetrical relations are really favorable). I know Delta really well so I know what to expect from delta folks, but they are not really that comfortable for me because of the asymmetrical thing, so instead of trying to find alpha, I go for beta, which is not quite right either.

I have been trying to use socionics to find my dual so I can evaluate whether or not it makes a difference. Not that I'm being scientific or anything, although that would be a side benefit. It's just that going through a divorce sucked big time and I'd rather put energy into getting it right from the get-go. I think the point is that you really have to have both: socionic complementarity and common interests and values. Both, not either. That's why it's so hard for us who haven't experience duality I think.

But you know, with duality, the common interests were the least important bit. At least to me.

It would be really interesting to see if any research has been done in Russia on divorce. As in, is there a difference between the dual and non dual divorce rate? If there was a difference, then this theory could be applied in some pretty practical ways, so long as type validity could also be established.

They have done something with long-term marriage, not sure if it included divorce specifically.

[Rocky]

I sorta see each dual pair as being one type, in a way. Each individual is half of a dual. If they're not with they're dual, they're incomplete in a manner of speaking. From this perspective, each quadra has two types: rational and irrational.

Joy, this post actually makes you sound crazy.

it's not the post

LSD?

[Joy]

There are no "pure" representatives of one type

That's a good point. There's also the matter of the hundred other levels of compatibility, too. Not just any dual will do.

[Rocky]

Joy, the belief of "romantic love" in the way you are talking about it (something like, "Oh, there's only one right person for everyone" and things along those lines) is cute but strongly unfounded.

[Joy]

Joy, the belief of "romantic love" in the way you are talking about it (something like, "Oh, there's only one right person for everyone" and things along those lines) is cute but strongly unfounded.

No, no, no, I do not hold any sort of belief as such.

[Rocky]

Joy, the belief of "romantic love" in the way you are talking about it (something like, "Oh, there's only one right person for everyone" and things along those lines) is cute but strongly unfounded.

No, no, no, I do not hold any sort of belief as such.

How is what you said any different? Maybe you didn't say exactly there was "one" person for everyone, but the idea is the same. People get into relationships for reasons beyond "love".

[Joy]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "love" but it sounds like you're reading FAR too much romanticism into what I said.

No one is perfect for me, and there are probably hundreds of people in the world who would be an excellent match. That makes it pretty rare, yes, but the whole "one true love" idea makes my head hurt.

[Joy]

Not to say that people can't live reasonably "happy" lives with someone who isn't an excellent match...

[Exodus]

Isn't your family of origin primarily Alpha, Expat? If so, then an alpha female would seem familiar and comfortable. This could be what is meant by Rick when he says that people choose relationships other than dual ones when there is an absence of duality in their childhoods. Speaking generally, if a person has not experienced duality then they do not know what to look for exactly.

I ask because my family of origin is mostly Delta, with the exception of one sibling who is an intj. My parents are my socionics supervisor and benefactor and I have another sibling, comparative. Ever since I've been interested in socionics, I've thought that a lot of my decisions early on were reactions to asymmetrical relations and/or quadra tensions. Especially since most of the men I've been involved with have been Beta, which puts me in the more favorable position. (not that any asymmetrical relations are really favorable). I know Delta really well so I know what to expect from delta folks, but they are not really that comfortable for me because of the asymmetrical thing, so instead of trying to find alpha, I go for beta, which is not quite right either.

Yeah, I think there is some kind of dependence on family relationships, although it's not clear what it is. Maybe it is just subtype after all.

[UDP]

Isn't your family of origin primarily Alpha, Expat? If so, then an alpha female would seem familiar and comfortable. This could be what is meant by Rick when he says that people choose relationships other than dual ones when there is an absence of duality in their childhoods. Speaking generally, if a person has not experienced duality then they do not know what to look for exactly.

Yes, you're right and I fully agree with that. Totally.

...and if they have, it can be clear as day.

[Exodus]

Isn't your family of origin primarily Alpha, Expat? If so, then an alpha female would seem familiar and comfortable. This could be what is meant by Rick when he says that people choose relationships other than dual ones when there is an absence of duality in their childhoods. Speaking generally, if a person has not experienced duality then they do not know what to look for exactly.

Yes, you're right and I fully agree with that. Totally.

...and if they have, it can be clear as day.

I think the clarity that results is more instinctual; it affects how you act naturally. My sister is ESFj, but I still find it quite difficult to identify ESFjs--just recently I noticed one (previously thought ISFj) that I had known for years. But looking back on it, we've always gotten along well, and I was attracted to her for a while.

On the other hand, an ENTp friend of mine has had zero experience with duality, and the way he acts is off-putting to most (though not all) ISFps. He just doesn't know how to ask for Si & Fe, although thanks to Socionics he is painfully aware of his need for it. Given that, he is pretty good at picking out ISFps.