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Thread: LII-ESE Duality Relations: discussion, examples (INTj and ESFj)

  1. #201
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    I was just thinking, probably the best thing to do would be to ask her about it. Ask if she feels uncomfortable when you ask her opinion on these things, and explain the situation like thehotelambush said. I think that's what I would do in that situation, anyway. Your mileage may vary.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    from my personal experience with my dumb dual the SEE...
    lol

    not all SFs are dumb of course, but i think they might sometimes make themselves look that way for various reasons.

    SEIs might have anxiety dealing with the unknown and "harsh realities" (weak Intuition + Te PoLR), and so they may forgo dealing with those things and withdraw in order to indulge their sensory Si bubble. i think this combination of traits might make other people see them as unrealistic.

    ESEs just want to have a good time and enjoy themselves, focusing on the present situation and context - so possible consequences of their actions may go unforeseen or ignored (Ni PoLR), which might make them look shortsighted.

    with "dumb" SEEs, i've gotten the feeling before that they're playing dumb just to get people to not feel threatened by them - to get people to like them, underestimate them, and not let people see them coming when they finally go in for the kill, whatever it may be (some Se goal). sometimes they contradict themselves without realizing it (Ti PoLR), and they may not care about the contradiction because their Fi is more important to them.

    ESIs are hard to convince of things that may seem outlandish to them (Ne PoLR), and since they're Fi-leading their convictions will often not be based on strict logic. so if they have dumb convictions to begin with, they'll continue to look dumb when they stubbornly defend and maintain these beliefs (good Te might convince them otherwise)


    not all SFs are dumb, though i have to say that SFs who are actually dumb can look *really* dumb, lol. when their NT duals are dumb, they may get away with it because they are probably better at bullshitting in order to seem like they know what they're talking about, or something

  3. #203
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Nice. Well said, glam. I like when people concisely wrap up in a neat little package observations that were previously scattered and mostly unconnected in my mind.
    Quaero Veritas.

  4. #204
    Jarno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    with "dumb" SEEs, i've gotten the feeling before that they're playing dumb
    yes, there are subtypes who do this constantly.

    I said dumb just because the OP made it sound he had trouble with his 'dumb dual'. Don't take it too literaly.

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    lol, this place makes it seem like there's no such thing as an intelligent Alpha SF...

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    Alpha SFs are Narrator>Taciturn. Alpha NTs are Taciturn type. It is not Alpha-NT's job to educate Alpha-SFs by explicitly narrating their own understanding, unless explicitly asked for, of course. You rather do that by pointing at rather specific things (Taciturn>Narrator) that are supposed to implicate that there is something wrong with their (Alpha-SF's) already established general understanding.
    Last edited by Trevor; 04-09-2011 at 09:26 PM.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    lol, this place makes it seem like there's no such thing as an intelligent Alpha SF...
    just in case you're referring to my post, i really don't think all Alpha SFs are dumb. i was just musing on the reasons why might people think that they are sometimes (even if they're not)

    feel free to write a post about wishy-washy NFs and their meathead ST duals

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    SFs aren't dumb. they just have weak logic.

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    It might be fun to 'amaze' someone with your talents or wit, but, if you really want to make things more substantial, talk about what they can do. Don't put them in the spotlight of having to sound super logical.... it's not that they can't be, it's just that the emotional pressure that they are put in sometimes overwhelms them - because they frequently want to make someone else happy or do something appeasing.

    Show appreciation for concrete things they do for you and others. Or talk about how you appreciate their relationship strengths.

    Try to find situations where you can both do something together. Major points if you can man up and do some dancing. It doesn't matter if you are "good" or not, that you try is a BIG DEAL. Go out dancing with her and her friends, or go on a double date and be nice.


    Also... part of the process of "having success" is simply going to be letting her get comfortable around you, even being 'super analytical', and allowing her to feel comfortable expressing her opinions and encouraging her to deal with analytical matters in a constructive way. It will probably take time.

    I don't know anything about your situation though, so these are all remarks sans context.

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    Default INTj-ESFj: do LII men like for the ESE woman to lead in the beginning of a relationship?

    So. . . question of the day. lol.

    Do LII's like for ESE's to ask them out? To decide where and when the date will take place, who, when and where they'll meet their friends, the pace of the relationship, etc.? Or do they not?

    And if the ESE does take the lead, will the LII learn to lead somewhat sometime during the relationship, after they've known the ESE for some time?

    I'm asking, because recently, I got the guts to go against the flow of normal femininity and start asking out an LII. And although he accepted and he seems to enjoy my attention, I'm not sure if he really "appreciates" it. . . but maybe that's just me because I'm used to being chased instead of doing the chasing?

    I'm wondering. . . should I be doing this? Or should I let him lead? And will he ever learn to lead if I just do everything?

    LII's please answer.

    Your comments and views on this will be greatly appreciated.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Yes, ask them out. Don't go with traditional roles, it doesn't work in the ESE/LII relational pair. AND, don't let your dual pass you by. You don't have that many to choose from.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
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    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yes, ask them out. Don't go with traditional roles, it doesn't work in the ESE/LII relational pair. AND, don't let your dual pass you by. You don't have that many to choose from.
    Nah, there are plenty of LIIs. Mostly nerds. Gamers and programmers and such.
    *stereotypes*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  13. #213
    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I doubt an LII would take much initiative with the opposite sex.
    Some LIIs do it alot actually.

  14. #214
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    Generally speaking, yellow, I'd say approach, show interest, take the lead, do it for a little while and get excited or happy whenever he does the same and gradually you'll positively reinforce the LII into shape. Granted, I'm not an LII, but I knew an ESE that did that and gave up just a little too soon. Otherwise I think she would have gotten her guy.
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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    Early stages I think the LII would like taking the lead, but there has to be a turning point eventually where the ESE sweeps in with all of the Fe. I'm not sure how much detail I should go into, but I am an ESE who just started dating a LII...
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



  16. #216
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    Yellow! Haven't seen you active here in a few months. How've you been?

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow82 View Post
    I'm asking, because recently
    My biggest question is the word "recently". How long ago did you start dating him?

    Because generally, the extroverted type takes initiative in starting the relationship, and the ethical type helps maintain the status of the relationship, until the logical dual feels completely comfortable to give back more. In the case of ESE-LII, the ESE usually starts the relationship and maintains it for some time, to my understanding, while accepting the LII as they come out of their shell.

    Might take some time, but stay with it. If he's not ready yet, or you feel he's uncomfortable, just be patient. So again, how long has it been? If it's still under 3-6 months, I wouldn't be too worried. The best is yet to come. You did a great thing by starting the relationship, going out for what you want, and I feel if you keep at it, leading the relationship for now, it'll pay off long-term.

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    btw, how did everything go with your EIE dilemma?
    Well. . . he ended up crossing a line [trying to hold my hand,] so I basically dumped him indirectly by doing my best to completely ignore him. . . but on his end of the deal he doesn't seem to want things to end. He keeps calling me for really no reason at all. . . and then basically begging me to not drop him out of my life. But I've made up my mind. . . I don't cross moral boundaries. He's still with his fiance and I'm not going to mess with that at all. I do feel sorry for him though. I wish that I could really drop my feelings for him, but I don't think that's going to change. . . I just have to tell myself what is right and what isn't, and my will has always been stronger then my emotions, so at least that's comforting.

    Basically, I found out that he started our relationship trying to play with me, but then he ended up developing real feelings for me. . . and now he's basically messed up. [I refuse to make that my problem. =P]


    Yes, ask them out. Don't go with traditional roles, it doesn't work in the ESE/LII relational pair. AND, don't let your dual pass you by. You don't have that many to choose from.
    That's actually not true. . . out of all of the people that I know, I know at least twenty LII men my age. I just like my man best out of all of them. [But I am consistently meeting new ones. So that may change.]



    I'm glad that everyone thinks that what I am doing is good. . . but I am ending it based on a conversation I had with my mom the other night. You see, he's black. . . and I guess that's a real taboo down here. =X Anyway, my family would basically disinherit him and my kids if I ended up with him. . . so I feel no choice but to end it. I like him genuinely, but I love my family and even though their views are seriously messed up, I don't want to lose them. . . they're my family after-all. So I'm going to have to let him go.

  18. #218
    Haikus silke's Avatar
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    some stories

    ESFj here. I may be one of the few ones out there that is actually married to an INTj. And it's great! Don't get me wrong, we're obviously very different from each other but we have worked hard on our communication but it's so beautiful to see the growth in both of us through the years.

    To the INTj asking the questions, I think it's so wonderful you fell for an ESFj and thank you so much for the kind words you wrote about us! Don't be discouraged about distance completely. My now husband and I did long distance for several years before we got married. One thing I can recommend is try to be more open about your feelings with her. I know as an INTj that's crazy hard. You have a lot of feelings inside but don't communicate them well. Try anyway. ESFjs are huge on talking about emotions and sometimes INTjs can feel very cold, blunt, and honestly just abrasive. My husband can get that way too and sometimes it hurts my feelings but then we talk about it in a mature way.

    ESFjs can be very good at reading other people but it is hard when there is so much physical distance and if you aren't showing any emotions to her really at all...if all she can go off of us what you write or text then try to be warmer to her and express feelings more. Ask her how her day is, how she's feeling, how her talk with her mom went (or whatever), ....I know small talk might kill you....but it means a lot to her. Both people need to come each other's way.

    Also, last thing. If after everything, she's not feeling you. Don't try to be someone you're not. INTjs are an acquired taste and an ESFj that's going to truly give her heart to one has to appreciate their quirky sense of humor and need for accurate information and all else that make you so special. Don't try to mask who you really are but do try to let her see the real you and your deep level of emotions that you usually keep to yourself. What do you have to lose?
    [bixesual female INTj] The compliments to you ESFjs are rarely heard but well-deserved.

    I'm beyond grateful I met my ESFj as I can sincerely say that she unconsciously helps me become a better person by simply being herself. I get motivated to be more outgoing, actually eat on time, sleep early, be more mindful of my relationships and my own emotions etc all because she values these things: health, body discipline, friendship and relationship. All those in the span of a few months of knowing each other. Safe to say, those are ESFj traits, right?

    I don't know how to be more open with my feelings with her. It's discouraging when she keeps referring to me as a friend. I feel like it's starting to become a cycle. I compliment her, I'm sweet with her, I assure her about her current and future relationship (platonic and romantic). Then I get a "thanks, friend," response. As an ESFj and from what she shared with me, I know she has a lot of peers but only has a small circle of intimate friends. So to be considered her friend is already an honor in itself. But it's a bittersweet pill to swallow.

    Speaking of asking about her day, let me gush about something related to it. I love that about her. I always hear people ask "what's up," or "how are you," but I think she's the only one in a long while who asked me how my day was. The question's specific enough to draw out details instead of a mere "good," "not much" or "fine" and considering its specificity, it sounded genuine and caring to me. That said, I do return the favor and ask her about her day, check in when she's feeling sick, give her space when she's moody. I'm not good at consoling people; it usually ends up with me joking about it and making light of the situation as much as I can. So while I ask her how she feels, I'm not sure if I'm giving her any comfort by asking.

    I love that you said INTjs are an acquired taste. I'm not sure if I can wear my girl down. She's looking for someone stable and sane. I don't think INTjs are sane. It always crazy up in our heads and if per chance we let out our emotions, they spill all over the place.

    Any tips on how to clue my ESFj in? I want to tell her I like her in person though, I want to be brave enough to say that looking at her eyes. So for now I just want to clue her in and make her feel special but I don't know how. Help? Or do you think it's a lost cause by now?
    Wow, if you could tell her all those things you just wrote us. Wow! That is so sweet! Would totally melt any ESFj's heart to hear that you appreciate her kind heart so much and that she makes you want to be a better person. Awww, I wish I (or anyone) could tell you what her reaction would be if you told her you like her but unfortunately we can't. Just like with any other personality when it comes to love, no risk no gain. You have to put yourself completely out there. My advice would be when you do decide to do it, don't hold back and then later regret you never had the chance to tell her how much she means to you. If it helps, you could write it in a letter to her and read it to her in person or mail it etc. so you don't clam up.

    I think it's great you already ask her about her day and say nice things to her. She must really value you in her life if she writes you almost every day, even if it is just in the friend zone. If her love language is touch and you live crazy far away and have no plans on living closer, you may have to realize this could just be a friendship. Either way, you just have to put yourself out there and tell her your feelings. My INTj husband and I when we started dating did long distance and if he didn't throw his feelings out there the way he did for me to see (which I now get was soooooo hard for him as an INTj) I would have never known he cared for me so much. I appreciate in him that he makes my well-being his priority. In a world of ESFj life where I make everyone else a priority over myself, it's nice to have someone in your corner who is watching out for you. Make her feelings and well-being your priority. Be her rock if you can. Send her flowers to brighten her day.

    Good luck with everything! Don't hold back and put yourself out there. A year is a crazy long time away to wait but you do what you feel is best and if waiting to do it in person is what you want then do that. Have the courage to let her see your emotions and then respect whatever her decision is. You can do this! Hugs!
    I do let her know that she is a positive influence in my life but always in a joking manner. So I guess the sentiments are watered down too.

    Honestly, I’m pretty sure she considers me strictly as her friend right now. So I was hoping that I can subtly endear myself to her until such time I feel right to tell her I like her, preferably in person. You did say INTjs are ACQUIRED taste, right? But do you think that’s an okay idea?

    Oh and you know what’s funny? I think she doesn’t know that initiating conversations almost every day is something I already consider as an extra effort on my part. It’s cheesy but I do greet her a good morning or a good night almost without miss even. So I suppose if I tell her I like she’d probably just respond with, “that makes sense.” I just don’t want to do it the cheap way of texting. Also thanks for the flowers idea, I think I can come up with something more personal to her on her birthday.

    Speaking of, how did your husband make known his feelings for you? Wearing our hearts in our sleeves is hard. I think as INTjs we can come up with the best romantic plans IN OUR HEADS but we rarely execute them; I think our plans can be too grand it’s a bit reaching for us to execute, hence disappointing even to ourselves.

    Yeah I love that about ESFj’s, making other people their priority. She cares so deeply. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t know how to switch it off. So it’s sad to see her hurt sometimes. But like I said I’m not good with consoling people. I ask her how she is. I listen but I don’t know the right words to say to comfort her. Anyway, how did your husband show that your well-being is his priority? Might take a leaf from him.

    And you’re right. No risk, no gain indeed. Thanks for the advice. I was already planning to write it down. But it would be short. I just want to tell her, “I like you. And I don’t expect you to return it or even to give me a chance. I just want to let you know that you’re an endless wonder, any person would be lucky to fall in love with.” How’s that? I think endless wonder sums up nicely how I feel about her. Swoon worthy on paper, isn’t it? But it would sucked if she cringes or frowns even for a split second. So I’m trying that endearing myself tactic for now.
    Will try to answer your questions as best I can:

    1) "subtly endear yourself plan": that could work unless she finds someone else in the meantime and then you are screwed. Also that means you spend a year of your life before your visit focusing energies and becoming more enthralled with someone who may not feel that way about you. So this would take a year of your life away from pursuing / being open to meeting someone who may be into you. How long have you two been talking like this? I think if it's already been awhile then waiting another year just puts you more in the friend zone. Why not visit her sooner? What's so special about a year from now?

    2) "What did your husband do to make you know you're a priority?": We were long distance and he made an effort to call and he would send me some letters that were very deep... like really putting his feelings out there, which at the time I just thought was so sweet but now I REALLY get how hard that was for him. I asked him the other day how he was able to do that so many years ago and he said that it just made logical sense to him because he knew if he didn't put it all out there that I was going to date this other guy and he would lose me forever. So while it was crazy hard, he knew it was his only chance. We met in person and he read me a poem and told me why the poem meant a lot to him / the way it reminded him of me. I thought that was so sweet.

    I understand you not feeling like you're good at "consoling" her and that's where I say she has to come your way and that's part of the charm of an INTj. I just wrote this on a different thread when an INTj asked me why I thought being with an INTj was worth it. Maybe my response will help you a bit:

    You asked about what the "so worth it" part is about being with an INTj. Here's my take: I really value in INTjs their need to find objective truths. As a feeler sometimes (who am I kidding...a lot of times) I can be swayed by my emotions one way or another and I find that my INTj husband really roots me by helping me take a step back, look at the situation more objectively, and then work through my feelings. I think on the surface / early in relationships this approach can sometimes feel like a lack of empathy or coldness... but with time you realize it's really just your INTj trying to get the most accurate facts they can to then find the most objective truth and then help you with it. Sometimes we feelers just want you to be like "You're right, that person sucks! I'm on your side! Ride or die!" Haha! But I actually really appreciate that my husband stops and is like "Why did you infer they meant xyz when they said that? Were you already feeling down before this interaction from an event earlier that day because from the words they used I can see no slight." He helps me look at what words were truly said. While annoying at times when I feel very emotional, I know in the end he's usually right (you better get used to that if you're with an INTj).

    I appreciate too that he doesn't have this need for group approval or social niceties, so honestly when I need help putting boundaries down or saying no to events or things, it's really nice to have him go and tell people no for me or help me build my own confidence to be able to do that on my own. When I get wrapped up in some stupid social thing (Facebook or what a neighbor may or may not have meant) he's just like who cares! These things are so unimportant and I just love hearing that sometimes...to see the freedom of not being tied down by these social constraints that I feel as an ESFj feels very liberating (even if I can't live that way...it's refreshing to see!)

    I love my INTj because he looks out for me: I'm out there always trying to do things for other people and can get run down by taking on too many other people's emotions, but he makes me his priority and not others. If an INTj is going to listen to someone's feelings then you know they really love you. He doesn't really do this for anyone else. He helps me analyze things and realize when I'm over-extending myself and he helps me learn that I shouldn't say yes to social obligations etc. when my true feelings don't want to. It's very refreshing to have an objective filter on the world of a feeler and for that I so appreciate INTjs.

    Yes, at times he can come off very direct, abrasive, and just have that resting serious / intense INTj face... but knowing where the motivation behind it all comes from makes me realize it isn't from a mean un-empathetic place. I LOVE spending years in our marriage learning more and more about how he processes information and the inner workings of his thoughts. When he opens up part of his mind to me it is just the most interesting thing! I love it! The connections he makes and thoughts he has about the world are truly amazing. That's why I say if you can spend the time to love an INTj and truly make the effort to get to know them and love them in the way they need, it's just so worth it!"

    In the end, she has to also love you for you and that's not something you can force. She's either going to put in the time to learn about you and your INTj ways as you learn and come her way as well. My advice would be don't do "jokes" and think she's going to get you like her.... she's an ESFj, it's so hot when a guy can just come out and say they love you and that you mean the world to them and make you want to be a better person.

    Don't write what you said above where it's like two lines and do the INTj thing where you put a lot of thought / care in selecting words so you think that she would look at "endless wonder" and would equate that to knowing you mean so much to her... instead she might see that as "wait, does he think I'm really confusing to him?".... write her and just put it all out on the line like: "I think about you the first thing in the morning and last thing I do at night. I'm always wondering how you're doing and hearing from you is the highlight of my day. You make me want to be a better person and pull me out of my comfort zone and I'm realizing more and more every day that all these feelings are there because the truth is that I love you. I wish I could tell you this in person and being miles away is so hard, but I just wanted you to know my true feelings even if they're hard for me to say sometimes. You are worth the risk and even if the feelings aren't reciprocated, I just want you to know the impact you've had on my life this past year and I so appreciate your warm heart and caring for others. You are such a lovely and kind person and I feel so lucky to have met you." ...... something like that would be amazing! Ha!

    I'd say take the risk, put it all out there, don't wait a year. Visit her earlier, or send her some letters. Or if you want to ease into it slowly than stop "joking" around and just say real feelings nicely. Women love confidence and a man or woman who can put some feelings out there confidently is seriously swoon worthy. I know it's hard but if this girl is worth it, you have to get out of your comfort zone. INTjs are worth getting to know and coming their way but we can't do that if you don't allow her to see your strong feelings and thoughts that you keep to yourself in your head. Loving is letting her in.
    Last edited by silke; 02-24-2018 at 09:39 AM.

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    The ESE I know is with her semi dual LSI and complains that he’s “too boring.” She wouldn’t be bored if she had an LII
    SLE-Ti

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    I'm not really on the market but I'm interested in meeting ESEs for friendship. Anyone have any good examples of how an LII-ESE friendhsip plays out, or good examples of this friendship in popular culture or literature (wasn't one of the Three Musketeers an LII)? can some ESEs suggest good ways of approaching ESEs that won't weird them out and have them filing restraining orders?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    LII provide ESE with detailed analysis
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I think one of my co-workers is ESE. We work well together. She's an older woman who seems to struggle with a lot of detailed analysis so she comes to me frequently for help. I never really thought of myself as being hyper-attuned to details but I suppose it might seem that I am to others. I find it a bit easier to relax and open up in her presence. She's sort of like an older sister or mother role. She seems to take delight in making me laugh or crack jokes, since I'm normally pretty quiet and don't open up too much to people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Weird View Post
    I'm not really on the market but I'm interested in meeting ESEs for friendship. Anyone have any good examples of how an LII-ESE friendhsip plays out, or good examples of this friendship in popular culture or literature (wasn't one of the Three Musketeers an LII)? can some ESEs suggest good ways of approaching ESEs that won't weird them out and have them filing restraining orders?
    You should meet my sister, cousins (2) and aunt
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    ESE activation happens via Ne. To meet that requirement you need to show Ne which is something you LII's tend to do privately. This means essentially doing something in weird ways that is totally out of the ordinary.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    This means essentially doing something in weird ways that is totally out of the ordinary.
    Ne is about new useful possibilities, but not about phreakness. Also LII calm ESE having quiet mood and being assured in Ni.
    While what you describe more relates to weak functions as you essentionally talked about weird. SEI are weird in Ne, for example.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    I'm not really on the market but I'm interested in meeting ESEs for friendship. Anyone have any good examples of how an LII-ESE friendhsip plays out, or good examples of this friendship in popular culture or literature (wasn't one of the Three Musketeers an LII)? can some ESEs suggest good ways of approaching ESEs that won't weird them out and have them filing restraining orders?
    I think I’m becoming friends with an ESE at university. I had to attend a (pointless) conference for student organizations as a delegate from my honors society tonight. As it was wrapping up, I noticed her and began talking to her since we’d once shared a fairly difficult class, from which she was absent for a while due to her mother dying. She began talking about what she’d been doing since then, and introduced me to a friend of hers at the event, who, incidentally, I think was also an Alpha NT (Amazing what Socionics can predict!). It turned out that the ESE and myself were taking parallel courses in life, so we immediately had a decent amount to talk about. Anyway, the three of us lived somewhat close to each other, so we walked home together, talking. Along the way, there was a large crowd of people; a building had its fire alarm triggered, and everyone was evacuated. The ESE recognized a priest she loved and began talking to him, then her friend found someone she knew and began talking to him. The ESE invited me to follow her, and we began to talk off to the side of the crowd. As we talked I became increasingly conscious of how good it felt to talk to her. If you’ll pardon melodrama, it felt like her cheerfulness and good humor was an army blazing with the power of the sun, single-handedly breaking down the fortress of ice I’d built up in my heart. I can’t imagine what she thought was interesting about my company, but I suppose she’s that friendly to everyone — which is what I love most about her.

    I’m not at all interested in her romantically, nor do I think I’ll ever be, but I would do anything to be her friend. I really like her as a human being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I think I’m becoming friends with an ESE at university. I had to attend a (pointless) conference for student organizations as a delegate from my honors society tonight. As it was wrapping up, I noticed her and began talking to her since we’d once shared a fairly difficult class, from which she was absent for a while due to her mother dying. She began talking about what she’d been doing since then, and introduced me to a friend of hers at the event, who, incidentally, I think was also an Alpha NT (Amazing what Socionics can predict!). It turned out that the ESE and myself were taking parallel courses in life, so we immediately had a decent amount to talk about. Anyway, the three of us lived somewhat close to each other, so we walked home together, talking. Along the way, there was a large crowd of people; a building had its fire alarm triggered, and everyone was evacuated. The ESE recognized a priest she loved and began talking to him, then her friend found someone she knew and began talking to him. The ESE invited me to follow her, and we began to talk off to the side of the crowd. As we talked I became increasingly conscious of how good it felt to talk to her. If you’ll pardon melodrama, it felt like her cheerfulness and good humor was an army blazing with the power of the sun, single-handedly breaking down the fortress of ice I’d built up in my heart. I can’t imagine what she thought was interesting about my company, but I suppose she’s that friendly to everyone — which is what I love most about her.

    I’m not at all interested in her romantically, nor do I think I’ll ever be, but I would do anything to be her friend. I really like her as a human being.
    Great post, @FreelancePoliceman. You are describing the exact way I feel about an ESI-Se artist I know. Very accurate. I don't lust after her, but I'd do anything to be her friend.

    The next stage of Duality is to discover that your duals actually suck at doing the things you are best at doing. This can be a shock if you aren't prepared for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Great post, @FreelancePoliceman. You are describing the exact way I feel about an ESI-Se artist I know. Very accurate. I don't lust after her, but I'd do anything to be her friend.

    The next stage of Duality is to discover that your duals actually suck at doing the things you are best at doing. This can be a shock if you aren't prepared for it.
    Lol, thank you. I have a fair idea of her weaknesses, I think, and ESEs' in general -- ESEs probably talk about their insecurities and troubles more than ESIs

    I know she/they are weaker than me in certain areas, but her capacity in these areas isn't anything I would either like or dislike her for, if that makes sense. It's her warmth and consideration for people that strikes me.

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    Are people referring to MBTI INTJs or socionics INTjs in these previous posts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LIIutstia View Post
    Are people referring to MBTI INTJs or socionics INTjs in these previous posts?
    This is a Socionics forum. Assume Socionics unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Can you describe what the ESE-LII relationship is like?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The LII has his doubts about the relationship because the ESE is extremely impulsive and talks a little too much. She is funny and energetic, it's just that it is too much. She is constantly in control and taking initiative, touching him, wanting him to say something, controlling the environment. The LII is more quite than usually. I can understand that, she also makes me exhausted.

    It's hard to say much about the relationship because it's overshadowed by the ESEs extreme (unhealthy?) extraversion. So not a good example of duality. They are certainly duals though and also a Dominant-Normalizing match. I've seen much better LII-ESE couples in the past.
    Reposting bits of this conversation in this ESE-LII duality thread.

    ESE overshadowing LIIs has reminded me of this vid, where she is ESE-Fe and he is LII-Ti. She does most of the assertive talking at the beginning of interview, while he is carefully listening and emoting. They do sound like a creative ESE and harmonizing LII pair so while she overruns him initially later the conversation shifts.


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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Reposting bits of this conversation in this ESE-LII duality thread.

    ESE overshadowing LIIs has reminded me of this vid, where she is ESE-Fe and he is LII-Ti. She does most of the assertive talking at the beginning of interview, while he is carefully listening and emoting. They do sound like a creative ESE and harmonizing LII pair so while she overruns him initially later the conversation shifts.

    Yes, it was a little painful to watch how she interrupts him. To me she looks more like a Dominant though. The C-ESEs I've met are more random and have less assertive energy.

    EDIT: Well, actually, she could be a very excited C
    Last edited by Tallmo; 03-27-2020 at 11:47 AM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Yes, it was a little painful to watch how she interrupts him. To me she looks more like a Dominant though. The C-ESEs I've met are more random and have less assertive energy.

    EDIT: Well, actually, she could be a very excited C
    Watching that video helped me put the finger on something that tends to put me off LIIs — the extreme sense of passivity many of them seem to exude, coupled with being so people-pleasing they seem not to be have a personality. Not all of them give me this impression though. I’m curious if this is something correlated with subtypes. Tallmo, @silke, I don’t know if this is a common impression, but since you seem to know DCNH well, any thoughts on subtypes & LII passivity?

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    but since you seem to know DCNH well, any thoughts on subtypes & LII passivity?
    They are often Normalizing. Very common. Or harmonizing. Dominant LIIs are often far from passive.

    But there are exceptions.

    This woman I type LII normalizing. But she is not very passive. She seems social in a normal way. (I've met her personally).

    (she talks about some administration-strategy related stuff)

    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    ひきこもり Eli's Avatar
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    Random tidbit on demonstrative Se

    ESEs are actually very careful people. EX: "don't step on her foot" and "her hand is being pressed". Part of Si-Ne gel is the creation of a "safe space" by Si egos for Ne egos to explore recreationally without fear of being invaded or overshadowed. ESEs and LSEs are the best at carving out and maintaining boundaries when needed. The sporadic nature of the creative function allows the safety-creation a bit more of a "bite" and intensity than Si egos can afford to maintain. It's like they create a bubble or "shield" around their loved ones.

    The main player of this duality (in theory at least) is LII. LII is the one that generates ideas, and ESE is the communicator to the outside world. Ti Fe is all about communication, standardization of ideas and upholding certain logical and ethical structures. No one else is better suited to creating and spreading these ideas to a very large group, aka society. Unfortunately I've yet to see this dynamic be brought to it's full potential (societal change), most of the LIIs and ESEs duals I've seen IRL are more like mommy and gamer son duo. But whatevs.




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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Reposting bits of this conversation in this ESE-LII duality thread.

    ESE overshadowing LIIs has reminded me of this vid, where she is ESE-Fe and he is LII-Ti. She does most of the assertive talking at the beginning of interview, while he is carefully listening and emoting. They do sound like a creative ESE and harmonizing LII pair so while she overruns him initially later the conversation shifts.

    I think the guy might be EII or LII-Ne. There's no way a Ti subtype can look that soft lol. LII-Ti is closer to LSI in terms of appearance/behaviour, gaze looks sharper and less scattered, movements are abrupt, expression is faint or non-existent, speech lacks intonations. LII-Ne is more sluggish, movements are lazy or even soft, eyes look softer, speech is quite versatile and expressions are more varied. From my experience Ti and Fi sub Ne-ego guys are more stereotypically masculine than the Ne subs. But that might just be bias since I'm Ti sub lol. At any rate the guy in the video is way too soft for an LII imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    most of the LIIs and ESEs duals I've seen IRL are more like mommy and gamer son duo.
    hahahah this is true
    At least for the early 20s age range. Guess Alpha NTs are a bit slow to mature... But there's definitely other dynamics going on, its just that the more mature Alpha NT specimens don't stand out and therefore get mistyped as something else. Met a few business-minded ILEs that I guarantee would get typed at first glance as LIE/ILI/LSE. In relationships these ILE often follow traditional gender dynamics because their "childish" element is subdued, or maybe cause they identify with the traditional male role or whatever. I've also met some older LII that seemed very mature. Seems to me that Alpha NT men in general start a family at a later age. Like mid-30s to 40s. But my sample size is small lol so it's just a guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    hahahah this is true
    At least for the early 20s age range. Guess Alpha NTs are a bit slow to mature... But there's definitely other dynamics going on, its just that the more mature Alpha NT specimens don't stand out and therefore get mistyped as something else. Met a few business-minded ILEs that I guarantee would get typed at first glance as LIE/ILI/LSE. In relationships these ILE often follow traditional gender dynamics because their "childish" element is subdued, or maybe cause they identify with the traditional male role or whatever. I've also met some older LII that seemed very mature. Seems to me that Alpha NT men in general start a family at a later age. Like mid-30s to 40s. But my sample size is small lol so it's just a guess.
    The usual problem with alphas is that non normative ones take career paths that might be total dead ends or so unusual/divergent (like hard core non practical research where open positions are rare) it might turn out that family is not ever an option and they are fine with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Guess Alpha NTs are a bit slow to mature...
    Maturity always seemed to me like a loaded concept used by those with more social power to make you conform to what they consider "normal behaviour".

    My ESE aunt-in-law has a fortune telling guru she pays to tell her stuff like "You lived in Anchorage? well it's not surprising that you're attached to that place since it's Anchor-age". She's like 60 yo. Doesn't sound "mature" to me either.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

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    Many ESEs have trouble tempering their invasive spirits that seem to have a need to control the agendas of relationships; though many come across like primary school teachers, they'll often say that they never want control. LIIs resist any hint of a loss of independence or autonomy by distancing themselves and or becoming icy; yet, many will wonder why others perceive them as unfriendly or an elitist. If these two aspects are not curbed before the attempted start of a relationship, there's little potential for it getting off the ground or surviving any length of time.

    a.k.a. I/O

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