Yes, I agree I always wonder though if too much of your own indivdual EGO function is too develop, and less of your DS function, whether that will also be a problem.Originally Posted by crazedrat
Yes, I agree I always wonder though if too much of your own indivdual EGO function is too develop, and less of your DS function, whether that will also be a problem.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
LII*ESE Harmony
Yesterday, my LII and I both felt sick, sick, sick!
We planned to just lay around all day if possible.
Around lunch time, I made us fire-roasted tomato soup with grilled cheese (on country potato bread, of course) sandwiches, and a few Hawaiian sweet onion potato chips on the side. Juice and 7-up were a given.
And what else did we do? We watched Huell Howser's California's Gold. Huell was visiting an old-fashioned farm, where all the farmers used only the very old ways of dressing and farming and equipment.
We saw them make hay the way their great grandfather's had. We saw them pat their obedient mules and give them old-timey commands like "Gee" and "Haw" and "Woah". We saw them use kerchiefs as dust-masks, protecting against the harsh cloud of vegetable material pouring out of the 100-year old machine used to separate the wheat from the chaff. They didn't use modern things and they dressed in denim overalls and comfortingly plaid shirts.
We lay there, thinking about our own small garden plot, and thinking about our future together, riding on the bliss of the tried-and-true.
LII/ESE heaven? We thought so.
SLI
My dad is missing the end of his finger because it was cut off by one of those cute old-timey threshers.
IEE
A guy that my mom supervise's dad tripped and impaled his eye on a piece of old farm equipment, now he's got to walk around until the socket heals so they can remove the remnants of his exploded eyeball that's currently just sort of...hanging there.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
That's really fucking gross, but totally cool!
@OP - sounds blissful
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
you guys totally failed a beautiful thread
Hahaha, I know, BG. I just thought it was funny because of TD's comment and because my mom is probably ESE. I've heard her tell that story at every lunch and dinner where someone's not heard it yet (after everyone's done eating). She likes to use really colorful language and *exploding* hand gestures.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
oh my god, I always imagine playing around with a cigar cutter and putting your finger in it.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
I know a guy who was run over by an old-fashioned plough. It narrowly missed slicing his neck open.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
Two of my friends are an Si-ESE and Ne-LII couple and they're really quite devoted and very sweet. One recent incident: when he knows the answer to questions in class, he rarely puts his hand up - instead he sort of twitches as other people get it wrong and she leaned in and said 'Why don't you put your hand up, X?' and he replied 'Because I'm shy' and then she proceeded to tickle and pinch him lightly until he put his hand up, and answered the question. It was really cute. It was just way she did it as well, really gently but insistently to help him assert himself.
She's really friendly and very sweet and is always there to step forward and greet people and put them at ease and make jokes and he usually hangs just a bit behind her, quiet, but he seems to enjoy just being around her energy. They're so adorable. He liked her for such a long time and everyone suspected and he seemed completely incapable of doing anything about it so she finally asked him out and they've together since.
My mother (Fe-ESE) thinks they look quite odd together, because she's actually quite tall and when she's in flats, she's an inch or so taller but it's exacerbated by the fact that she has good posture and he hunches quite a bit. And she's a very robust, healthy build and he's quite weedy, I suppose. They both don't pay too much attention to how they're dressed, although she does like colour a lot - I've never seen her wear black or neutrals much, and he's just normally in a plain coloured t-shirt. Part of the way they work is that he sort of shrinks back in negative environments but when she's around, she just carries this warm energy and it seems to make him feel much more comfortable and he really enjoys it. And he kind of helps her with things like ordering her priorities and time-management to juggle everything she has going on in her life.
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3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
My closest friend is an ESE and I have known him for 6 years now. We were in the same boarding school for our A-levels (last 2 years of secondary school). His room was right next to mine for both years and it is the easiest friendship I have ever had (In just about every stage of my life I have had a bromance for lack of a better word, but they always fizzle out after we move apart whereas this still hasn't). I had been in the school for 2 years previously but he was the one who actually introduced himself to me, walked into my room wanting to borrow some CDs from me. I still don't know at what point I became comfortable with him being around, but it ended up with myself in his room and vice versa on a daily basis talking about the most random crap. From my perspective, there is a certain protective element from his side that I get especially in social situations whereas I don't really hold back what I think around him for fear of injuring his feelings. His mum actually jokes about how close we are. This has been talked about in another thread and is more generally alpha, but winding each other up is a huge part of our friendship, mainly me pissing him off. Knowing him is probably the most conclusive proof in my mind about duality and socionics as a whole and is the reason I will not settle for anything other than an ESE for my future partner.
LII?
SOCIONICS: Intertype RelationshipsI like that my LII doesn't hold back, too, even if he says something that seems "sharp". I also definitely relate to feeling protective towards my LII.
I wonder when we will get some really good duality descriptions written by people with real socionics skills (?).I think it would be immensely fascinating to read about the nuances of each type of dual situation.
These seem to be relatively good. I think the problem with writing the duality desription is that the most general descritions would look at how the functions and dichotomies interact with each other, but that does not seem to be what you are after. Real life consequences of these interactions beyond some very general traits then begin to differ based on the gender of the types, the culture etc. Other than posting the examples that are being put up here, I don't know how else it would be done. Guess we need somedominants to do that...
LII?
Socionics will need a much bigger following for that kind of study to take place. I guess you could write about your experience with your SO as a starter, and as more and more people interact with their duals, they can add to whatever is there.Yeah, that was very interesting. Thanks for that. But you're right, I'm looking for something that would be hard to provide.
Then again... I figure that someone out there might just love to do a study of duals. Like pick 8 pairs from 3 different cultural backgrounds (so 24) or maybe even quite a lot more, and then follow them for a few years. Then write an exhaustive report.I'd read it!
Maybe Te is our only hope, hehe...
LII?
ESFj-INTj duality: a call to arms!
Finding a dual may not be the most important thing in life but I think it is important enough to be made a big fuss of. Us LIIs seem to have the worst luck in all of the socion when it comes to duality, but I see no reason why it has to stay that way. We have each other now - we can pool our experiences and knowledge instead of having to rely on trial and error alone. We WILL crack this.
I'm not the smartest LII here, but what I do have are a few female ESEs who are willing to answer any questions I have all through the duration of this quest (aren't they awesome?) and of course I bring my own unique observations to the table. That, and extreme determination. I am not just doing his for myself anymore, I'm doing it for the rest of you and for future generations as well.
I will be tied up with work for a few weeks but I will then be free to make this my priority. Who is with me?
LII
Why would LII's have the worst luck in all of the socion in terms of duality?
You have apparently good intentions, but I can only repeat cracka's question. And why shouldn't ESE people have the worst luck in finding a dual because the LIIs are so scarce outside of the internet?
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
LII are introverted, and that's compounded by the fact that we are NT, which means we're socially closed. Very few of us are outgoing. ESEs and LIIs live in very different worlds - less contact = less chance of anything happening. The usual things people do to meet others don't work for us, we don't like clubs and bars. We don't fit the idea ESEs have of what boyfriends are supposed to be. I could go on...
It is just as bad for them, obviously. An ESE can only dualise if there's an LII being dualised too
Last edited by Zed; 09-08-2010 at 08:49 AM.
LII
You are definitely right about that, I have nothing to criticise. But the partners are very different in every dual relationship, take ILI and SEE for example (okay, ILI is NT, too) or SLI and IEE. Getting to know your dual is a difficult task, because you have to leave your 'natural' are of confidence to meet one unless you get to know your dual through work, school or similar things. But if you want to collect some tips here how LIIs find their duals, it won't do any harm.
You said we can pool our experiences here. Well, I have not much to throw in this pool. The few times I was together with others (mostly people from my former school) it was quite uninteresting and boring, mostly because I had nothing to tell, and nobody really talked to me. I can't actually blame the others, because I didn't know what to say either. I got into a disco one single time, just to see how it's like. Seriously, they were doing nothing at all. They just sat there, drank and stared into space. If this was their way to have a good time, I'm seriously happy to be alone. After this 'experiences' I was annoyed and actually stopped the efforts of 'joining the fun'. I'm alone most of the time and don't have any problem with that. It's enough for me to meet others during work/school and I'm fine with it if they leave me alone in my freetime. I know that this is not a good strategy to find your dual, but I actually don't think much about it and put it off. If I meet my dual (or someone who is just nice, regardless of the type) it's good and otherwise it's okay as well.
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
INTxs probably have it the worst. Most dual pairs I know are LSE-EII.
Disparities in terms of social status, social skills, physical attractiveness, and also the fact that the dating field has perhaps become more Se-valuing in recent times.
Things often change. Things might get better in the long-run...
just curious--how has the dating field become more Se in recent times?
IEI-Fe 4w3
i'm with you!Finding a dual may not be the most important thing in life but I think it is important enough to be made a big fuss of. Us LIIs seem to have the worst luck in all of the socion when it comes to duality, but I see no reason why it has to stay that way. We have each other now - we can pool our experiences and knowledge instead of having to rely on trial and error alone. We WILL crack this.
I'm not the smartest LII here, but what I do have are a few female ESEs who are willing to answer any questions I have all through the duration of this quest (aren't they awesome?) and of course I bring my own unique observations to the table. That, and extreme determination. I am not just doing his for myself anymore, I'm doing it for the rest of you and for future generations as well.
I will be tied up with work for a few weeks but I will then be free to make this my priority. Who is with me?
no zed is right, I can remember a ESE hinting that I was a bad boyfriend, much the same, I can remember a ESE hinting that I was strange.
Though at the same time your right, ESE will pretend to be less interested than they really are. I'm not sure if ESE have low self-esteem thus they imagine they deserve better than being happy with socially ackward LIIs. In some respects its almost like LII is what ESE needs but not what they want, not at first. At the same time don't most LII want to be socially involved, than outcasted? something a ESE would want too? Its harder but not impossible.
Ironically whenever I do act like myself around girls,and
, its because they are someone elses girlfriend or wife and then duality takes effect and heated drama. There is no pressure, you don't a give a f*$k! I don't have to worry about who's paying, why is she talking to that guy, etc. I'm not jealous at all. Basically I have no worries and then I start acting like myself and ESE flock, but I can't really do much about it.
I was thinking about this the other day, like in terms of developing a friendship, you realise that with some people your better off remaining pals or buddies, but if you try to stretch it further, you make bad friends, or you get upset because their not as good as your best friend. Consider the difference between your drinking buddies, work buddies and your true friends. There is somethings that can be said and done with one group of friends and somethings that just can't be said or done with another.
I'll be able to give a good idea on the different stages of progression when I gain more experience with women in a intimate relationship and I can conceptualize it like I can friendship. Before I had even tried with women, I had the hopless romantic idea of spendng the rest of my life with the first women I fell in love with - didn't happen that way for me and most people.
Overall though you have the right idea to want to collaborate. My advice is be curious about women and relationships, and keep an open ear as to what works and doesn't work for others. Also drop the idea of seeing yourself as LII, not that that is false, but consider your appearance, behaviour, physical presence, etc. Your individual experince is what is objectively occuring, if you have replaced your individuality for "LII", well that is not who you are because I'm a LII and I'm not you!
also, last bit of wisdom, unless you live in a vacumm, its not just LII and ESE, though there may not be many LIIs, there is still other types, ESE and ESE seem to make a fairly decent couple.
It's just an observation I've made; it's tenuous. It could also be a de-valuing of Ti in general in the dating field.
jason_m
For you, dear LII, to have something really fan fucking tastic with an ESE girl she has to be fat and ugly enough. Of course, that doesn't mean she has to be objectively fat and ugly, just fat and ugly in your opinion. But no, you want a princess. Well, you don't know what you're missing.
I think it's the other way around. Since the problem seems to be that ESEs are open to too many people, you need to find one who thinks she's fat and ugly but isn't, in which case she won't expect anyone terrific and will be happy to have you.
well, thank you
The difficulty it seems is distinguishing between ESEs and EIEs. I don't even know if this is true everywhere, but also there seems to be some emphasis on strength and power for women, which makes it difficult for the males (LIIs) to put themselves out there...What makes you say that? You should try presenting your
It's definitely not true (IME) once they've been hurt once in a relationship; then they start looking more actively for someone compatible instead of trying hard to please an incompatible person. I also believe that a lot of the duality issues with ESEs is due more to them being open with everyone, and therefore unavailable; not that they don't like their duals (as much as they may pretend they don't).
From the LII POV, how do you usually react to the ultra-Fe of an ESE? Do you find it attractive and a breath of fresh air, grating and obnoxious, something you'd like but can't provide for yourself, or some mysterious/unknowable thing that you're kinda perplexed about?
Genuinely curious.
All of the above?
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Mainly the first one and the last one, I'd think. Though, if the ultra-Fe is emphasizing something that I specifically dislike, then it just makes it worse.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Didn't your mother ever teach you that duality isn't everything?
If you think of something that is everything, let me know.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Um...matter! Nevermind...I realized concepts aren't composed of matter.If you think of something that is everything, let me know.
There are a few string theorists that have an idea.If you think of something that is everything, let me know.
However, to appease my fellow LII nit-pickers:
Duality is a tool to solve a problem, not the solution to all of them.
Good answer.All of the above?]From the LII POV, how do you usually react to the ultra-Fe of an ESE? Do you find it attractive and a breath of fresh air, grating and obnoxious, something you'd like but can't provide for yourself, or some mysterious/unknowable thing that you're kinda perplexed about?
Genuinely curious.
It is at the same time something insanely hot and attractive and a flaw to be corrected. The precise mix of those things are what creates the incentive for interaction in which both sides draw on their strengths.
hmmm...when ESE focus their Fe on myself or themselves or just one person instead of acting like the voice of a thousand people, that can be really nice. They seem to understand apart of yourself, apart that is subconscious, so yes, very mysterious. My reaction is self-affirmation, and with greater sincerity in their Fe, comes greater self-affirmation.
whoops! sounds like I'm plagerizing from uncle Ben: "Peter-with great power, comes great responsibility".
Very simply, put people first before socionics, duality, etc. Meet as many people as possible with the task of simply getting to know them, their behaviour, and how they treat people. Socionics can't tell you if someone is a horrible person, and there are villains of every type. Put your instincts and observations of real people first, then decide if they have the Fe and Si you are looking for. Socionics is more of a suggestion than an accurate law.
And don't expect to have a stable, lasting relationship until late twenties, early thirties. Generally speaking the maturity required of relationships is unusually found before the third decade of life.
LII
that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.
Indeed. Even if you're ready before then, most of your potential mates won't be.
Quaero Veritas.
Think of all the people you meet in the first thirty years of your life. To write them all off as immature and deny their potential to mirror your life attitude is extremely limiting. I thought you guys were Ne egos!
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