Sx vs Nx basic interaction (intuition/sensing)

[Kristiina]

I haven't figured it all out yet, but I'm currently trying to develop a system that explains why the interaction is like it is. Why some people inspire others into action and other types don't. This is the basis of socionics, but I often think about things in the wrong order.

At any moment, there are so many things that theoretically could be done.
Let's just start doing it. Things are like they are.
I know what's the best direction for the future.
This is what is happening now, and this is what we must do now.




Ne->Si
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now, and after that and after that... I can't decide!
Si: Right now, lets just do this.
Ne: This is ok with me. (just like any other option.)

or

Ne behind an obstacle: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (the Ne person still keeps moving, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay
*problem fixed*


Ne->Se
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now, and after that and after that... I can't decide!
Se: Don’t think so much, just start doing something.
Ne: But I don’t know WHAT to do! Gaaaah!
*argument*

or

Ne behind an obstacle: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way
Se: let's stay in this path!
Ne: Don't tell me what to do!
*argument*

Ne->Ni
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now, and after that and after that... I can't decide!
Ni: I think maybe this will be the best direction.
Ne: ok, according to that the first step would be this. Yes, I’m ok with that.
Ni: yeah, but we don’t have to do that… I don’t want to force you.
*indecisive moment*

or

Ne behind an obstacle: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way...
Ni: I think that maybe we should just stick to this road.
Ne: why not the other one?
Ni: Mhh... yes, it could also work. I still like the first one more, but I don't want to push you into anything you don't want to do...
*Ni person slows the Ne person down*

Ne->Ne
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now... I can't decide!
Ne2: Yes, I see that. Mhh. And we could also…
Ne: Yes. Difficult to decide.
Ne2: yes.
*indecisive moment*




Si->Ne
Si behind an obstacle: We must do something now, but I don't know what to do.
Ne: We could do this(1) or this(2) or this(3)...
Si: Oh. Ok, lets just do this(2).
*problem fixed*

Si->Ni
Si behind an obstacle: We must do something now, but I don't know what to do.
Ni: I know what's the best direction for the future. So the next step would be this.
Si: I definitely don’t think it’s the best step right now.
Ni: well probably, but the overall result will be better.
*argument*

Si->Se
Si behind an obstacle: We must do something now, but I don't know what to do.
Se: Lets just start doing something. Lets do this! (the most basic action for the situation)
Si: I don’t think it’s the wisest way of doing things.
*argument*

Si->Si
Si behind an obstacle: We must do something now, but I don't know what to do.
Si2: I see how you’d have a hard time in this situation.
Si: yes. Difficult to decide.
Si2: yes
*indecisive moment*




Ni->Se
Ni behind an obstacle: I see a good future road, but I’m not sure it’s really worth the effort, so I’m stuck.
Se: You’re thinking too much, just start doing it!
Ni: Ok, already doing.
*Problem solved*

Ni->Si
Ni behind an obstacle: I see a good future road, but I’m not sure it’s really worth the effort, so I’m stuck.
Si: Right now, let’s just do this. It’s the best thing to do.
Ni: No, I won’t. It has such a bad overall effect on the general situation.
*argument*

Ni->Ne
Ni behind an obstacle: I see a good future road, but I’m not sure it’s really worth the effort, so I’m stuck.
Ne: we could do this(1) or this(2) or this(3)…
Ni: Well, yeah, I think my road is good enough but oh well. I’m still struck.
*indecisive moment*

Ni->Ni
Ni behind an obstacle: I see a good future road, but I’m not sure it’s really worth the effort, so I’m stuck.
Ni2: Yes, I see how that really is a good future road. I guess you just have to start somewhere.
Ni: Yes. I know.
Ni2: yes.
*stagnation due to lack of motivation*




Se ->Ni
Se behind an obstacle: I don’t dare to just do this – I don’t know where it will lead.
Ni: Well, if you do this, probably that will happen.
Se: Oh, that’s quite good. Ok, I’ll just do it.
*problem solved*

Se->Ne
Se behind an obstacle: I don’t dare to just do this* – I don’t know where it will lead.
Ne: Mhh… Or you might as well do this (1) or this(2) or this(3)…
Se: No, I want to do this*, but…
*argument*

Se->Si
Se behind an obstacle: I don’t dare to just do this* – I don’t know where it will lead.
Si: Right now lets just do this.
Se: Why? But I want to do this*!
Si: It isn’t the wisest…
*argument*

Se->Se
Se behind an obstacle: I don’t dare to just do this – I don’t know where it will lead.
Se2: You’re thinking too much, just start doing it!
Se: but I’m afraid of what might happen.
Se2: oh, yes, I see the problem.
Se: yes.
*indecisive moment*

[Kristiina]

So when there is a couple, it is enhanced.

People with the same perceiving function (Si-Si, Ne-Ne...) have the same problem, but lack solution.
People with the super-ego function (Si-Ni, Ne-Se) just find it difficult to agree, everything's seen as the opposite. Solution contradicts the problem.
People with the super-ID function (Si-Ne, Se-Ni) have opposite problems and have solutions for each other.
People with the ID function (Ni-Ne, Si-Se) have different problems, and unexpected solutions. The solutions might help the other person, but it's mostly luck when that happens.


WARNING: Si and Se part is questionable! Very subjective! I just don't know enough sensing people.

[science as magic]

I sort of think that it is better to think in terms of ISxx vs. ENxx and so forth at times rather than simply in terms of functions. For example ISxx people generally seem very critical of new ideas and so ENxx enthusiasm is sort of wasted on them. They will only get jazzed up about an idea when it is convincing enough to overcome their scepticism. I think a similar dynamic is in play with ExFx and IxTx which is what can strain relations of both kinds.

[Jonathan]

At any moment, there are so many things that theoretically could be done.
Let's just start doing it. Things are like they are.
I know what's the best direction for the future.
This is what is happening now, and this is what we must do now.

I'm never a fan of these short redefinitions, I'm afraid.

[Edit: The more I read your interactions, the more I see this is really a good, valuable effort. I'm not sure that they're all correct, but this has some good ideas. Anyhow, I'll continue with my comments...]

Ni sounds too decisive, too rational in your definition. I do think that you've hit on an important aspect of Ni; that is, Ni does seem to have a sense of the path to go down. But Ni is more flexible and fluid than your wording would suggest.

Also, Ne sounds way too paralyzed. This leads to Ne sounding as if it would lead to an introverted direction ("There are so many things one could do, why even start doing any of them?") Actually, I know people who say things like that, and I'm quite sure they're Ni types. It may be in fact Ne that's leading to that reaction, but not ego-block-Ne.

Ne types couldn't be like that, because it would mean that they wouldn't take initiative and do things. Most Ne types I know do in fact pick on one of their ideas of what to do and start doing it.

[Edit: I said something about your Ne/Si description here but had misread it.]

[FDG]

Well I don't know about Ne. Poised like that, it would mean that a Ne person would never get anything done. I think Ne is more like, given a path with obstacles, to be the best at getting the shortest cut. But, when there are no obstacles, and many things to look at, Ne is going to be distracted and go here, there, here, there, so on.

[Expat]

Well I don't know about Ne. Poised like that, it would mean that a Ne person would never get anything done. I think Ne is more like, given a path with obstacles, to be the best at getting the shortest cut. But, when there are no obstacles, and many things to look at, Ne is going to be distracted and go here, there, here, there, so on.

But as with all such minimalist definitions, you have to differentiate between a function and a person.

I think Kristiina's definition are close to it, I have to analyze them all more carefully.

[Jonathan]

Well I don't know about Ne. Poised like that, it would mean that a Ne person would never get anything done. I think Ne is more like, given a path with obstacles, to be the best at getting the shortest cut. But, when there are no obstacles, and many things to look at, Ne is going to be distracted and go here, there, here, there, so on.

Yeah, I agree with this.

[Jonathan]

Well I don't know about Ne. Poised like that, it would mean that a Ne person would never get anything done. I think Ne is more like, given a path with obstacles, to be the best at getting the shortest cut. But, when there are no obstacles, and many things to look at, Ne is going to be distracted and go here, there, here, there, so on.

But as with all such minimalist definitions, you have to differentiate between a function and a person.

I think Kristiina's definition are close to it, I have to analyze them all more carefully.

I think the key that's often missing in N definitions is the behavior in reaction to the fact that there are many possibilities.

I think both Ni and Ne types recognize that there are many possibilities; it is what they do about it that's different. Ne thinks up possibilites and relatively quickly starts following some of them. Ni sees that there are too many possibilities and so instead focuses on a core "way of seeing things."

[Jonathan]

I sort of think that it is better to think in terms of ISxx vs. ENxx and so forth at times rather than simply in terms of functions. For example ISxx people generally seem very critical of new ideas and so ENxx enthusiasm is sort of wasted on them. They will only get jazzed up about an idea when it is convincing enough to overcome their scepticism. I think a similar dynamic is in play with ExFx and IxTx which is what can strain relations of both kinds.

If this were true, then duality doesn't exist for these types.

[FDG]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

[anndelise]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

this sounds much closer
i believe this would fit Nep easy, but does it apply to Nej as well?

[stefana]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

this sounds much closer
i believe this would fit Nep easy, but does it apply to Nej as well?

Politely butting in. LoL

Nej: I see this and this and this. Weighs pros and cons and thinks, this one is the fastest/most promising so we'll use it.

Now, is this off?

[Blaze]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

this sounds right. we do make progress and keep things moving forward. except when we are too bored and unmotivated.

what does Se do?

[Kristiina]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

this sounds much closer
i believe this would fit Nep easy, but does it apply to Nej as well?

Politely butting in. LoL

Nej: I see this and this and this. Weighs pros and cons and thinks, this one is the fastest/most promising so we'll use it.

Now, is this off?

I've noticed some Nej postpone decision until they have a clearer opinion.

And I was thinking... Maybe indeed it's the Ne in Ni-types that creates indecisive behavior. Ne creates the choices, but Ni types are reluctant to start moving in any direction until they know the entire path is worth the journey. Or at least that's true for me. and of course procrastination - the trick discovered by Ni types. Ne types can have hesitation, but they keep moving while Ni types have hesitation and just stop to look around.

[Slacker]

I can be pretty darn indecisive. Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out just where to start with things. Like there'll be lots of things I want to do (or need to do) and I have to figure out what to do first.

[Kristiina]

I can be pretty darn indecisive. Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out just where to start with things. Like there'll be lots of things I want to do (or need to do) and I have to figure out what to do first.

that's what I thought Ne types would have a problem with. Seems most people disagree. Maybe it's a Ne-subtype thing?

[science as magic]

If this were true, then duality doesn't exist for these types.

I think it would be more accurate to say that duality shifts with context.

[Kristiina]

Let me think...Ne

Obstacle.

Ne person: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way (notice that the Ne person still goes on, so that he doesn't remain still)
Si person: (when the Ne person has carried him/her to the right path, somewhat accidentaly), mmh, I think this is the right one
Ne person: okay

this sounds much closer
i believe this would fit Nep easy, but does it apply to Nej as well?

seems to apply to me!

good work, Kristiina! i'm glad u started this thread!

yay!

PS! I'll edit the first post to add/replace with FDG's version...

[Kristiina]

Soo... I've always kinda translated Ne into a specific way of thinking where everything is possible, ideas are somewhat idealistic, everyone's right in their own way... Their biggest problem would be making the decision between all the good ideas (ISxj biggest problem would be the lack of ideas to choose from). But I can also see the constant path-switching as a typical Ne problem. So maybe we should add some typical scenarios.

Ne->Se
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now, and after that and after that... I can't decide!
Se: Don’t think so much, just start doing something.
Ne: But I don’t know WHAT to do! Gaaaah!
*argument*

Ne behind an obstacle: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way...
Se: ???


Ne behind an obstacle: let's go there...oh wait, now that is better, let's go there...oh wait, now this could be better, let's go that way...
Ni: I think that maybe we should just stick to this road.
Ne: why not the other one?
Ni: Mhh... yes, it could also work. I still like the first one more, but I don't want to push you into anything you don't want to do...
*Ni person slows the Ne person down*

[FDG]

Se: let's stay in this path!
Ne: Don't tell me what to do!
*argument*

[Kristiina]

Se: let's stay in this path!
Ne: Don't tell me what to do!
*argument*

lol. yeah.

[Mea]

Se: let's stay in this path!
Ne: Don't tell me what to do!
*argument*

This is EXACTLY what happened between my ESTp ex and I. lol.

[pezzonovante]

Kristiina I like what you're doing here, it seems to work pretty well. The interactions are very generalized but accurate except for the ones with . You're description seems somewhat off too, except I can't think of way to describe it any better. Damn PoLR

[FDG]

Se: let's stay in this path!
Ne: Don't tell me what to do!
*argument*

This is EXACTLY what happened between my ESTp ex and I. lol.

To be honest, I've been in both sides of the argument. With a very very Ne-ENFp girl friend of mine, I sometimes kind of tell her not bounce around so much but some Se-ESFps try to tell me to sit still, sit well, or crap like that, and I react like "Ne".

[Socionics Is A Cult]

For me, and both seem to be past-oriented - what they do in the future is based on observations they've already made - see events repeating themselves, and so are worried if the 'actors' of the moment aren't on the stage. seems to be about replicating past sensations through the positioning of themselves in the environment - if the fire is too hot, they move away. If they are too cold, they move closer to the fire - but they don't turn the fire up or turn it down. Both and seem passive to objects in the present in this way.

[Kristiina]

What is the way of solving problems and what is the main problem types have?

The entire thread is inspired by the thought of why on earth do some people need ESTjs to get moving and other people need ESTps. What's the difference really? How do different types solve the problems of super-Id types, but why do super-ego types usually only make problems worse? Why doesn't the super-ego solution work? Then I realized the answers must be different depending on quadra and functions and tried to put it into words.

[FDG]

What is the way of solving problems and what is the main problem types have?

IME: Si types tend to solve task using the methods they have used before and that tends to be the most efficient/least physically consuming/most energy conserving (introverted function).

The Ne input is necessary in order for them to understand other efficient ways of solving a task.

The entire thread is inspired by the thought of why on earth do some people need ESTjs to get moving and other people need ESTps. What's the difference really? How do different types solve the problems of super-Id types, but why do super-ego types usually only make problems worse? Why doesn't the super-ego solution work? Then I realized the answers must be different depending on quadra and functions and tried to put it into words.

Yes those thoughts are good. I've read somewhere - do not precisely remember where - that Fe types usually have no problem getting things started but many times they get emeshed because they cannot easily figure out the logical structure of what they are studying/doing so they end up wasting resources. Ti types OTOH can be a bit lazy at starting tasks, so they literally "get involved" by helping Fe types.

[Nevero]

Ne->Si
Ne behind an obstacle: I see so many things that could be done right now, and after that and after that... I can't decide!
Si: Right now, lets just do this.
Ne: This is ok with me. (just like any other option.)

these are very good explanations, thanks for the breakdown @Kristiina

I would change this slightly to:

Ne: I see so many possible options of what could be! I am uncertain what I should choose.
Si: This is what you/we have already been doing, so this option would be the most feasible and sensible one.

When I asked a friend whom I think to be a Ne type what the Ne/Si interaction looks like he said that Ne types can feel like it takes too much of their resources and energy to do everything that interests them and at the same time meet all of their obligations. One of these has to give in: either they spend themselves chasing after their interests and satisfying their curiosity, but living in poverty or other practical limitations, or they trudge through everything that they are expected to do, but then their interests suffer and life starts feeling insipid.

If he tries doing it all at once, he said it makes him feel tired and worn out, as if all of his strength, resources, and energy is being sapped out of him, and if this continues there can be a nervous breakdown or an angry outbreak of which he later feels ashamed. He said that Si supports Ne by narrowing down his options, tying his interests into what was already going on, showing which decisions and steps are the most feasible ones thereby cutting down on uncertainty and saving Ne type's resources and energy, and taking on a part of the drudgery onto their shoulders which gave him more chances to get involved with his other interests.