Differences between ILE-ENTp and SLE-ESTp

[discojoe]

What are some key differences between ENTPs and ESTPs, generally speaking? I wish to learn more in the hopes of better understanding my strong inclinations.

[Angel von Himmel]

They actually act very much alike ... they both can be very loud and showboatish, and share many of the same social ques. Both can be prone to being accused that they dislike people when they really actually do like them and have a hard time displaying positive emotion. They can both look reserved to people unintentionally, and they could be sporatic in approaching people.

Some of the main diffrences include the fact that ESTps are alot more action orient than ENTps, who are somewhat more laidback.

Say an ENTp guy and an ESTp guy went to the beach together; basically, they are there for the same reason, but how they go about spending their time there may be a little different. The ENTp would be more prone to laying around on the beach sun-tanning and macking on chicks and the other ESTp guy would be out surfboarding and macking on chicks. So, they look alike and have the same motive, but with a slightly different outlook.

Another difference between ENTp and ESTps is that ESTps have an easier time taking care of their health, because they are and oriented.; they may not quite be as prone to the common ENTp absentmindedness, and they are quicker on the ball. ENTps typically have a harder time taking care of their health, because they are often weak in the sensing areas and they get caught up in habits and in motives that do not provide for them the same satisfaction of health that the ESTps naturally enjoy.

There are other diffrences, but those are the ones that I can think of at the moment.

[Creepy-]

Are ENTP's more idea and future oriented than ESTP's? Just curious.

[Angel von Himmel]

I noticed that whenever I'm in a group of people, I'd rather do something with them than stand there talking. I find this happening a lot for me. I'm guessing that this doesn't happen as much for ENTps?

No, an ENTp would be content to just stand there and talk about various subjects with people ... fast paced activities do not quite appeal as much to ENTps as they do to ESTps ...

I basically just said the same exact thing in the post I made at the top of this thread in answer to Discojoe ...

[discojoe]

What about in the way their minds work? What does one see that the other misses?

[Creepy-Monica]

I glanced at your past posts and I can see why everyone thought you were ESTP and not ENTP. I agree with them that you are a extroverted sensory type but you are not ESTP. You could be ESTJ and that fits with your preference to be the sexaully dominant one in the bedroom. And the funny thing is that you look and alike like most of the sensory ESTJ's that I know. But I didn't base my decision of your type solely on that.

If you want me to I can point out other reason why I think you should consider sensory ESTJ. But the quote below really stood out to me. Your experiences to me seem to be a manifestation of your undeveloped inferior funtion (introveted intution).

I can literally run through a series of events in my head and convince myself that they just happened, so it seems like reality to me. Sometimes I am not able to cope with so many perpectives, which often enough contradict each other, and cause me to (IMO) exhibit signs of schizophrenia (which are vast in number). I know basic psych, and having to deal with contradictions is one of the primary causes of schizophrenia. These multiple perspectives cause me to lose my sense of identity, which seems to release my brain from certain inhibitions, causes frightening behavior.

My intuition is something that runs out of control. My brain constantly makes connections between things, with our without my consent. This is the strongest part of my brain, which is why I so strongly believe I am ENTp. Sometimes my intuition gives me visions that comes true. And the weird thing is these visions are associated with an odd feeling, like an eerie dread. I don't remember having one that did not come true a few seconds later, but it may be my brain only focusing on the ones that do come true.

Now here is the strangest part. I am extremely aware of little thoughts, feelings, and images that go through my head; not all the time, and not all at once, but I am aware of parts of me that others do not seem to see in themselves. My mind is this torrent of visions and pictures that are epic and scary. These things cause me depression unless I use logic to siphon out the bad and to get up and keep going by focusing on the good.

Do you identify with any of this?

When the extraverted sensation type is fairly well-balanced the introverted intuition can appear in the form of ghosts, spirits and an interest in the parapsychological.

But the undeveloped inferior function can also be oppressive. It can continually multiply fears and premonitions of disasters. Life becomes cramped. Every minute the extraverted sensation type turns around there is a new negative possibility confronting him, and so his only remedy is to confine himself to a narrow routine of the safe and tried-and-true. The energy for growth that exists in the personality has become split off from the conscious mind and hems it in on every side.
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catpsy/t1c1.htm

[Creepy-]

argue with an estp and after awhile youll get a "ohwell, whatever!! who cares" response.

argue with an entp and theyll destroy youre entire arguement. they love to pick everything apart and expose hypocrisy and contradictions.

[discojoe]

I am sorry but could you all please stop giving me MBTI answers. This is a Socionics website and I am posting here for a reason.

"nt" this, "inferior function" that.....lol

[Jimbean]

I am a bit confused. Sometimes it is easy to pick out an ENTp from other types, but other times ENTp's and ESTp's are a lot alike.

Take me for example: I act and think differently than many ENTp's, but at the same time I am different from most ESTp's. I seem to fall in this gap. For a while I tried out ENTj, even tried to think like it for about a week, but was not it.

Then I thought that socionics does not work for everybody, even though it could be used in some way (if you can use it at all).

I stuck with ENTp because it seemed right on paper, then when I saw that the intertype relations did not work or other people's descriptions of ENTp, I assumed that I was just well-rounded!

Well, anyway after seeing Transigent's "Socionics in the family" post, I remembered that I grew up in an Alpha household with an INFj as a sister (which I still live with).

Conflicting Relations

People who have parents that are conflictors have trouble identifying thier types. They may even LOOK like thier conflictors in a wierd way, and have problems identifying Introversion or Extroversion.

This is how I think it works: suppose you have an ESTp with an INFj parent. Now, what happens is I think that over time, the ESTp is "molded" into a form that the parent can easily deal with, but is still overly critical of.

So, they may become ENTp-acting, because the parent supresses the natural Extraverted Sensing.

Also, the person will seem introverted. (And they may test as the same type as thier conflicting parent.)

Thus, they will type themselves as an "Introverted" ENTp, they will feel give off a "feel" of ISTj...but thier true type is ESTp!

This is all true and it pisses me off! I want to discuss this if anybody is willing

[Joy]

It's hard to tell the difference between an intelligent ENTp and an intelligent ESTp. I've met an average intelligence ENTp...

Yeah... so it all comes down to your 3rd, 5th, and 7th functions.

When you're being aggressive, do you get Ni or Si? When you feel like you're doing something cause you just have to, is it Ne or Se? When someone makes you feel great in a way you didn't look for from that person, is it Si or Ni?

[Gilly]

When you're being aggressive, do you get Ni or Si? Ni?

Not a valid question. Using a function aggressively does not imply that you only use it when you're actually being aggressive.

If I'm wrong, what, exactly, would Ni or Si manifest themselves as when used "aggressively," by your definition?

[WVBRY]

Well, Im no expert on the matter but from what I understand, they differ in terms of aptitude. ENTps aptitudes are in finding original solutions to problems. ESTps aptitudes are in dominating the physical environment.

For what its worth, thats my $.02.

[Rocky]

ENTP: "Oh, hey, look! Watch me do a cartwheel!! Do you know the reason the sky is blue? I do! I'm going to be an engineer... wait, no... lawyer sounds better. Actually, I'd really, really prefer to be an international spy! Yeah, that would be cool. ICE CREAM!!!"

ESTP: "Penis, vagina, penis, vagina, penis, vagina, football, penis, vagina, penis, vagina."

[Fermi]

Rocky, no.. not atleast for me.. perhaps you don't meant it literally but not even in "feeling" it gives a honest description.

[Rocky]

Rocky, no.. not atleast for me.. perhaps you don't meant it literally but not even in "feeling" it gives a honest description.

... no it wasn't serious (thought the ENTP one isn't far from the truth :wink: ).

But now that you've brought it up, what does ESTP think?

[Joy]

ESTp thinks, "WOW I HAVE SO MUCH ENERGY HOW CAN I GET THESE PEOPLE TO LOOK AT ME I WANT ATTENTIOOOOOOOOOOOOOON" and then says "PENIS ASS-RAPE FUCK YOUR EAR LOOK AT MY BOOOOOOOOOOBS!!! I'M GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT!"

[Fermi]

I.. dont know what I think off... I know I do think though.. It's almost thoughts that's not in real words. Like it's a bit hard to "touch" in the real world.. (thoughts are in general a question we know little about, isn't it?) I think that's why it's hard to remember what I thought.. comprende? :wink:

Hmm, I have to think of this.. Oh, yeah.. When I see a beautiful woman I can... noo.. everyone probably do this.. :wink:

I'll come back in a few days and come with a report on what I do think of really...

[XoX]

Ok, there have been some argument about what are the commonalities and differences between these types. Fabie claims to be on the S-side. I think I could be on the N-side etc. However these types shouldn't be THAT similar. There should be something to clearly distinguish them from each other. What would that be? Are Reinin dichotomies the way to go? How does subtype affect Reinin dichotomies manifestation in these types?

[FDG]

ENTps are generally slimmer, a bit more ectomorphic we could say. They have a gentler look in their faces, I think it's actually a better look. They walk more rigidly usually. They have a more graceful voice and way of speaking whereas the ESTps tend to be blunter as a rule. ESTps are usually better coordinated, something which is generally visible from the walk, too.

My experience with an ENTp, in a finance class: he had a very fast mind in seeing solutions that weren't obvious. For example when we came to a dead end in an equation he would look at it for some time and figure out how to do it. He was slower at implementing and applying things though, although I think mostly due to uwillingness. He also preferred to talk in "monologues" rather than "dialogues" in comparison to me. He had a very strong Ti death stare so there wasn't much difference in that realm. I was also quicker at walking. I also squirmed a lot more when sitting, and talked a bit faster. He was calmer. I liked this guy very much, smart calm and fun.

Another experience with an ENTp was pretty bad. He was in a rugby team so he wanted to fake Se. He was always going around talking how he wanted to fuck girls and then leave them, he criticized all the time the way i was dressing while he himself did not care about his appearnce...i almost throwed him a venice waterway once out of anger. Liked to make me angry.

Anyway the bottom line is...the types are incredibly easy to tell apart when you see them but not that easy to tell apart by words.

[Khamelion]

ENTps are generally slimmer, a bit more ectomorphic we could say. They have a gentler look in their faces, I think it's actually a better look. They walk more rigidly usually. They have a more graceful voice and way of speaking whereas the ESTps tend to be blunter as a rule. ESTps are usually better coordinated, something which is generally visible from the walk, too.

You've discribed the difference between what I picture an ESTp to be like, and how my boyfriend actually is.

[XoX]

ENTps are generally slimmer, a bit more ectomorphic we could say. They have a gentler look in their faces, I think it's actually a better look. They walk more rigidly usually. They have a more graceful voice and way of speaking whereas the ESTps tend to be blunter as a rule. ESTps are usually better coordinated, something which is generally visible from the walk, too.

You've discribed the difference between what I picture an ESTp to be like, and how my boyfriend actually is.

So what you are saying is that he doesn't spank you hard enough?

Anyways...I like what we have so far but we need more Reinin dichotomies should be quite different. e.g. Taciturn vs Narrator. What else are the differences in Reinin scales and do the subtypes bring those types closer to each other in Reinin scale or is narrator always a narrator etc?

[Jimbean]

This is a good question because sometimes there is not a lot of difference between the two. Basically I would agree with what FDG mentioned, plus I would say that each type might have a strong role function (or might me weak, in which case it would not be difficult to tell them apart), but each of them may be more reckless about it than if it was their strength. It is not anything that I could explicitly explain, but rather it is something that you would have to catch on to after meeting enough EXTp’s.

[FDG]

ENTps are generally slimmer, a bit more ectomorphic we could say. They have a gentler look in their faces, I think it's actually a better look. They walk more rigidly usually. They have a more graceful voice and way of speaking whereas the ESTps tend to be blunter as a rule. ESTps are usually better coordinated, something which is generally visible from the walk, too.

You've discribed the difference between what I picture an ESTp to be like, and how my boyfriend actually is.

So what you are saying is that he doesn't spank you hard enough?

Anyways...I like what we have so far but we need more Reinin dichotomies should be quite different. e.g. Taciturn vs Narrator. What else are the differences in Reinin scales and do the subtypes bring those types closer to each other in Reinin scale or is narrator always a narrator etc?

The Renin differencies I've found...

tactics vs strategic: they seem to change for example university courses for no motivation at all whereas i prefer to keep a bit more in track.

taciturn vs narrator: this is harder to figure out honestly. Because it doesn't mean what the name says. ENTps I know prefer monologues to dialogues in comparison to me. I tend to interrupt them. They also speak a bit more even when in a bad mood.

Ne vs Se role: ENTps i know are better at acting completely unprepared for an exam. This doesn't mean they get better result but they just GO there without having studied thinking they can do something. Sometimes this gives results, sometimes not.

[Exodus]

Ne vs Se role: ENTps i know are better at acting completely unprepared for an exam. This doesn't mean they get better result but they just GO there without having studied thinking they can do something. Sometimes this gives results, sometimes not.

lol, this sounds like me.

[XoX]

Ne vs Se role: ENTps i know are better at acting completely unprepared for an exam. This doesn't mean they get better result but they just GO there without having studied thinking they can do something. Sometimes this gives results, sometimes not.

lol, this sounds like me.

Heh. I don't generally do this. I have tried it but it kinda failed. And I dislike getting bad grades so I don't do that. I dislike performing below potential. I have jumped from course to course though. I can suddenly get bored in a course and feel like there isa a better one out there. I'm bad at follow-through on subjects that start to bore me

Anyways what's the difference between ENTp(Ne) and ENTp(Ti)? FDG once had a thread about this which claimed that ENTp(Ne) is a useless type or something. I have been thinking and I guess it makes more sense that I'm ENTp(Ne) because I'm more about generating ideas and I often lack the follow-through on my projects. Also ENTp(Ne) is stronger in NF functions and ENTp(Ti) is stronger in ST functions. My NF self-perceptions would point more to ENTp(Ne). This would also explain why I am perceived as ENFpish/Deltaish (almost an ENFp) or as INFp/ENFj (Fe is there to some extent, Ni is apparently too)

[FDG]

I think you refer to the SLE type descriptions. It was mostly like ENTps-Ne are harmless which does not mean useless - just means you don't have to watch your back while you interact with them.

[Expat]

taciturn vs narrator: this is harder to figure out honestly. Because it doesn't mean what the name says. ENTps I know prefer monologues to dialogues in comparison to me. I tend to interrupt them. They also speak a bit more even when in a bad mood.

The best way to spot this is to look at combination with positivist-negativist:

ENTp: taciturn-positivist-process
ESTp: narrator-negativist-result

So what it means is that EPs should be inclined to adopting a "critic" stance (different from INTps', though) in terms of your objectives, goals, or opinions - "what you want to do is wrong because you don't know this and that"; "you will get nowhere if you continue as you are now"; OR adopt a "how do I do this right now?" stance when trying to accomplish something specific.

Both the ENTp and the ESTp can shift back and forth between these stances; although each point should be most clearly visible in the corresponding type.

[Suomea]

ENTps are generally slimmer, a bit more ectomorphic we could say. They have a gentler look in their faces, I think it's actually a better look. They walk more rigidly usually. They have a more graceful voice and way of speaking whereas the ESTps tend to be blunter as a rule. ESTps are usually better coordinated, something which is generally visible from the walk, too.

My experience with an ENTp, in a finance class: he had a very fast mind in seeing solutions that weren't obvious. For example when we came to a dead end in an equation he would look at it for some time and figure out how to do it. He was slower at implementing and applying things though, although I think mostly due to uwillingness. He also preferred to talk in "monologues" rather than "dialogues" in comparison to me. He had a very strong Ti death stare so there wasn't much difference in that realm. I was also quicker at walking. I also squirmed a lot more when sitting, and talked a bit faster. He was calmer. I liked this guy very much, smart calm and fun.

Another experience with an ENTp was pretty bad. He was in a rugby team so he wanted to fake Se. He was always going around talking how he wanted to fuck girls and then leave them, he criticized all the time the way i was dressing while he himself did not care about his appearnce...i almost throwed him a venice waterway once out of anger. Liked to make me angry.

Anyway the bottom line is...the types are incredibly easy to tell apart when you see them but not that easy to tell apart by words.

Very cool mentioning the Ti death stare. As an ENTp- Ti I notice the Ti death stare with ESTp- Tis too. One of my best friends is ESTp- Ti and we get along really well. We'll blow up at each other once in a while but for the most part we're cool with one another. And when we do blow up we're normally alright the next day or whenever we've had time to release whatever was bothering us. I think the Ti subtypes are just more patiently observant with a lot more serious bite. Ne's and Se's are too busy using their extraverted function to understand things in as much depth. I don't know whether the other ENTp you mentioned was an Ne subtype or not (I'd maybe guess so), but in general I get along better with ESTp- Ti than ESTp- Se (this is moreso true for males than females). ESTp- Ses I'll sometimes explode on if they are putting too much Se pressure on me or someone I care about, or if they are really over the line I'll make everyone and their mother hate them, and get them fired or kicked out of school. It's funny because they don't realize that all they had to do was release some of the unnecessary over the top Se pressure..... maybe they just don't care.

[Ms. Kensington]

People should post pics. I am not sure that everyone's talking about the same thing with the death stare.

[implied]

People should post pics. I am not sure that everyone's talking about the same thing with the death stare.

oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=9371

i will find some more pics if i can. i tend to sort of think it is something similar to what vladimir mayakovsky does in photos (what a fox.) very penetrating sort of i'll eat your soul stare.

[Ms. Kensington]

wow

i have some pics of me doing the same thing but it's too embarrasing.

PS if you have one of these you don't have my permission to post it

[Suomea]

Yep.....that's what I was talking about....

[Logos]

wow

i have some pics of me doing the same thing but it's too embarrasing.

PS if you have one of these you don't have my permission to post it

No wonder why many villians and sociopaths get typed with having Ti.

[implied]

Another experience with an ENTp was pretty bad. He was in a rugby team so he wanted to fake Se. He was always going around talking how he wanted to fuck girls and then leave them, he criticized all the time the way i was dressing while he himself did not care about his appearnce...i almost throwed him a venice waterway once out of anger. Liked to make me angry.

i really cannot stand these ENTps and they grate me worse than any other type.

[Steve]

A main difference is that ENTp-Tis will give off more Si, like noticeably so. Si is actually visible with ENTip-Tis and not as visible with ENTp-Nes. ESTp-Tis will give off more Ni, so a main difference between ESTp-Ti and ENTp-Ti is that while they are both Ti subs, you will see a lot of Si with ENTp-Tis and Ni with ESTp-Tis. So there is also that noticeable difference in addition to the differences with Ne and Se.

@introspectivedolphin: your brother instantly hit me as ENTp-Ti, and primarily from the Si I sense from him, just like me. Its the added Si that makes ENTps gentler and not as intense.

Here are some examples:

ENTp-Ti:








Here are some ESTp-Ti:

[Gilly]

Nixon? No fucking way, man. The only one I'd even possibly agree with would be the first one.

[Exodus]

A main difference is that ENTp-Tis will give off more Si, like noticeably so. Si is actually visible with ENTip-Tis and not as visible with ENTp-Nes.

IME it's the opposite. ENTp-Tis value Si less than ENTp-Nes, so they tend to avoid using it more.

[XoX]

Do ENTp's ever act like ESTp's, and vice versa? Do ENTp's ever show aggressive or confrontational behaviour?

For me it seems like ENTps are more often aggressive than ESTps. They get pissed of way more easily than ESTps who generally are quite calm.

[XoX]

It's my fault, I should have explained my reasoning better.

Anyhow, being new to socionics and still trying to understand the basic differences of the types, I'm trying to understand the differences between ExTp's. Since both have Fi as polr, I would assume some similarities exist in how they conduct their interpersonal relations. What I really was getting at was whether confrontational behaviour was more typical of ESTp's than ENTp's (ie. in a random sampling of situations, is the ESTp more willing to use direct language to achieve his goals? Do ENTp's ever try to achieve their goals in a direct way or do they achieve them in a more round-about way?). I know in the end it comes down to differences in individuals, but since we're working within the context of socionics, we should assume certain tendencies in individuals attributable to their type.

I hope that clears things up, I hope I didn't cause too much trouble.

ESTps are more direct. However I wouldn't call this "aggressive" really. Just direct and confrontational in the sense of being very direct. ENTps are more volatile and chaotic. This is true even in the display of aggression. ESTps are more in control of themselves.

[XoX]

ESTps are more direct. However I wouldn't call this "aggressive" really. Just direct and confrontational in the sense of being very direct. ENTps are more volatile and chaotic. This is true even in the display of aggression. ESTps are more in control of themselves.

I guess it comes down to ENTp's valuing Ne>Se. So, do ENTp's ever have clearly dileneated goals towards which they strive albeit in a chaotic and volatile way? I guess at the heart of this is really the difference between a senser and an intuiter. Are we justified in saying that Se types are more goal oriented than Ne types, or are Se types just more inclined to pursue goals in a direct fashion?

Reinin strategic types are more goal oriented than Reinin tactical types. ESTp is strategic type. ENTps, imho, are very bad at pursuing long term goals unless the goals "come to them". ENTps are good at responding to challenges in their environment and in a right kind of environment providing them challenges which lead them towards a bigger goal they can at least seem goal oriented. But if left alone ENTps just run in circles without knowing what to pursuit.