Similarities between Enneagram Types and Static/Dynamic Dichotomy

[Expat]

Enneagram 1: Static IJ, focus on Ti (typically: ISTj) content with static state, finding reassurance in it, panicking when about to change, reaction is to stick to static state.
Growth into Enneatype 7 EP: also static, willing to change state into something more interesting.
Disintegrating into E4: Defeat. Reality of scary change of static state leads to passive acceptance of change in dream-like state.

Enneagram 2: Dynamic EJ , focus on Fe, inclination towards Si (typically: ESFj). Aware of continuous changes of others' physical well-being and emotional responses to the E2, who aims at anticipating those changes by being proactive in using Si to steer Fe.
Growth into E4: having reached satisfaction with the physical and emotional state of those around, happily relaxes and accepts perception of changing state as long as overal external emotional state remains positive (ie behaving like a happy INFp).
Disintegrating into E8: sense of defeat in objective of steering other's Fe through Si leads into withdrawal from close interactions with others an EJ attempt to control own destiny independently from others.

Enneagram 3: Dynamic EJ, focus on Fe, inclination toward Ni (typically: ENFj). Aware of continuous changes of other's emotional reactions to the E3, who aims at anticipate and control them by being proactive in projecting a designed image or social role, using Ni to steer Fe.
Growth into E6: sense of satisfaction with projected social role leads to closer interaction with selected few and hopes for satisfactory static state to remain unchanged.
Disintegration into E9: Defeat: passive IP acceptance of dynamic changes of others' perception of the E3's image and social role rather than attempts to steer it

Enneagram 4: Dynamic IP, focus on Ni, with some input from Fe (typically: INFp): aware of continuous changes in reality and taking those for granted, accepting them as long as emotional attitude of others remains positive (ie cooperative and non-hostile).
Growth into E1: sense of satisfaction with a particularly favorable situational state leads to desires to "freeze" it in an quasi-IJ manner.
Disintegration into 2: fear of negatives changes happening in the emotional state of others leads the 4 to take a desperate EJ 2 stance in trying to steer other's emotional state back to a more favorable state.

Enneagram 5: Dynamic IP, focus on Te and Ni, low Fe (typically: INTp): aware of continuous changes in reality and taking those for granted, accepting them as long as feeling able to increase own knowledge
Growth into E8: Sense of achievement of full competence leads to impression of being independent and in control of own destiny in pseudo- EJ manner
Disintegration into E7: despair at direction that the changes are taking leads to frantic pseudo-EP attempts to change present state

Or, alternatively

Enneagram 5: Static IJ, Ne oriented: content with static state, finding reassurance in it while exploring possibilities in it, but disintegrating into desperate ways to change it when becoming ossified and unsatisfactory and skeptical of possibilities, becoming 7 EP with frantic attempts to break from it. Growing into 8 EJ: knowledge of possibilities gives confidence in own ability to control own state, anticipating changes in static state.


Enneagram 6: Static IJ, focus on Fi, low Ne (typically: ISFj): contented with static Fi state of relationships with closed ones and anxious about that state changing.
Growth into E9: contented acceptance of changes of Fe emotional state of closed ones in pseudo IP manner as long as overall Fi situations remains reassuringly stable.
Disintegraton into E3: feared collapse of static Fi state leads to desperate attempts to restore it or replace it by steering others' Fe emotional state through projection of enhanced social role and image in EJ manner.

Enneagram 7: Static EP, all functions: dissatisfaction and boredom with static state, trying anything to break out of it, according to specific functional preference for Se or Ne.
Growth into E5: having reached a point of satisfaction with breaking off boring static state by trying new activity, settles down for a moment of calm and satisfying gradual change, pseudo IP, accumulating knowledge about new activity.
Disintegration into E1: Defeat: unable to break off from bored static state, becomes anxious about ever getting out of it, seeming to retreat into it anxiously.

Enneagram 8: Dynamic EJ, Te oriented: aware of continuous changes in external environment, Te-related rather than Fe-related as with E3, aiming at staying ahead of them and in control of own situation.
Growth into E2: freedom from fear of losing control over own Te situation leads E8 to concentrate on control of Fe states of others.
Disintegrating into E5 IP state: defeat: disorientation and at a loss of how to anticipate continuous changes, surrenders to them while in a "sabbatical" to accumulate knowledge in order to recover control.

Enneagram 9: Dynamic IP, Fe oriented: aware of continous changes in reality regarding the emotional state of others towards them and taking those for granted, accepting them easily.
Growth into E3, proactive EJ Fe: feeling confident about awareness of emotional state of others, decides to move one step ahead by being proactive to make those even better in terms of perception of own social role.
Disintegrating into E6. Defeat: scary changes in other's emotional state, or perception of E9's social role, leads E9 to take refuge in close relationships with supposedly stable Fi relationships in pseudo IJ Fi state.

[UDP]

I was all set on being a one, but seeing this thread again makes me wonder.


http://similarminds.com/desc.html


My focus is not on perfectionism.
That seems to imply that I would be concerned about what other people think. The only perfectionism I have is to the ideals I created myself, etc. MBTI INTJ.


Whatever, I don't have the time to get into it right now. Maybe later.

[discojoe]

What is this? Did you write this?

[Expat]

What is this? Did you write this?

I did. I take full responsibility.

[Phaedrus]

I was all set on being a one, but seeing this thread again makes me wonder.

Is it between 1 and 8 for you? Or do you consider any other enneatype? How much do you identify with 5?

My focus is not on perfectionism.

The word "perfectionism" can of course mean different things. But at least when it is related to pedantry, INTps are probably more "perfectionistic" than INTjs. INTps are more concerned about eliminating minor flaws, such as incorrect spelling etc.

[UDP]

According to the Enneagram Institute,
looking at the "Average levels"

• ( TYPE 1) Average Levels
  
  Level 4: Dissatisfied with reality, they become high-minded idealists, feeling that it is up to them to improve everything: crusaders, advocates, critics. Into "causes" and explaining to others how things "ought" to be.
  
  Level 5: Afraid of making a mistake: everything must be consistent with their ideals. Become orderly and well-organized, but impersonal, puritanical, emotionally constricted, rigidly keeping their feelings and impulses in check. Often workaholics—"anal-compulsive," punctual, pedantic, and fastidious.
  
  Level 6: Highly critical both of self and others: picky, judgmental, perfectionistic. Very opinionated about everything: correcting people and badgering them to "do the right thing"—as they see it. Impatient, never satisfied with anything unless it is done according to their prescriptions. Moralizing, scolding, abrasive, and indignantly angry.
  
• (TYPE 5) Average Levels
  
  Level 4: Begin conceptualizing and fine-tuning everything before acting—working things out in their minds: model building, preparing, practicing, and gathering more resources. Studious, acquiring technique. Become specialized, and often "intellectual," often challenging accepted ways of doing things.
  
  Level 5: Increasingly detached as they become involved with complicated ideas or imaginary worlds. Become preoccupied with their visions and interpretations rather than reality. Are fascinated by off-beat, esoteric subjects, even those involving dark and disturbing elements. Detached from the practical world, a "disembodied mind," although high-strung and intense.
  
  Level 6: Begin to take an antagonistic stance toward anything which would interfere with their inner world and personal vision. Become provocative and abrasive, with intentionally extreme and radical views. Cynical and argumentative.

[Expat]

I think that what you described is perfectly consistent with IJ Ti subtype, closer to INTj probably.

The INTj is one of those types that finds no obvious "home" in the Enneagram, and IMO there are no real enneagram 5s -- they don't exist. If they did, they would be a mix of INTj and INTp. Which is to say, people do identify with 5 because nothing else fits better, but they aren't really 5 as described.

[UDP]

Forget it - I was going to try to write about my history in a way that would indicatemy Etype, but seeing Expat's post below, as I was previewing my post several times, just furthers the notion that proceeding anymore in that direction would be a greater waste of time.

Socionics is the best theory I've ever seen, so I'm not going to spend time justifying myself with another model, particularly one that I haven't studied much at this time. From what I have seen, however, the 5w6, 1w9, and 8w9 are relevant, and in particular, choosing between 5 and 1 is pointless.

I'm somewhere between E5, E1, and E8.
I feel confident in saying I am LII, and MBTI INTJ.

[Phaedrus]

I'm somewhere between E5, E1, and E8.

That is the perfect answer for me. Perfectly consistent with my view on INTjs/INTJs.

[FDG]

I'm somewhere between E5, E1, and E8.

That is the perfect answer for me. Perfectly consistent with my view on INTjs/INTJs.

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

[Phaedrus]

I'm somewhere between E5, E1, and E8.

That is the perfect answer for me. Perfectly consistent with my view on INTjs/INTJs.

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

Do you think that UDP is lying or is very confused about his identity? Do you think that he is not an INTj?

[Expat]

An INTj can relate very well to 8's desire to be free from control from others, I think -- it works if you look at the motivations, rather than the stereotypical "bossy" 8 external behavior (which isn't really me, either).

[UDP]

I wouldn't say that I am naturally an 8 type, but I feel a progression into an 8 more than a progression into a 7. Maybe I am just confused by stigmas.

my base would be a 5 / 1 split some how.

If I were an 8, it would most certainly be 8w9, as opposed to 8w7


I actually feel like saying I am a 5 at the core, presently. Because everything is dependent on my grasp of the truth. Truth relates to principles. Principles relates to taking charge.
5 - 1 - 8. I have a feeling that is not really how to talk about an Enneagram, but so be it.
Without principles, I cannot take charge nor have an urge to dominate. Without being sure of what is true (static IJ), or what is real, I cannot develop principles.

To me, really, this all is very clear if you read MBTI INTJ profiles, specifically in regard to their nature of taking charge. They are not at all one to sit back and watch something be done in a shitty way.

Key Motivations: Want to be self-reliant, to prove their strength and resist weakness, to be important in their world, to dominate the environment, and to stay in control of their situation.

I can relate to all of that.

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

I can understand where you are getting at that from a Socionics LII perspective. But it should also be remembered that I feel very strongly about being an MBTI INTJ. For what it is worth, I have seen Saddam Hussien listed as an INTJ. According to the E Institute, he is a Type 8.


Also,

The Meaning of the Arrows

When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), detached Fives suddenly become hyperactive and scattered at Seven. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), avaricious, detached Fives become more self-confident and decisive, like healthy Eights.

The Meaning of the Arrows

When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), methodical Ones suddenly become moody and irrational at Four. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), angry, critical Ones become more spontaneous and joyful, like healthy Sevens. For more information,

Nevertheless, it is difficult for me to choose between 1 and 5 with sincerity. Perhaps what I described above might help.

[UDP]

One: Reformer, Critic, Perfectionist - This type focuses on integrity. Ones can be wise, discerning and inspiring in their quest for the truth. They also tend to dissociate themselves from their flaws or what they believe are flaws (such as negative emotions) and can become hypocritical and hyper-critical of others, seeking the illusion of virtue to hide their own vices. The One's greatest fear is to be flawed, and their ultimate goal is perfection. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the One is Anger, while the One's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Perfection. Under stress, Ones express qualities of the Four, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Seven.

That is not my ultimate goal or fear.

I'm not really afraid of anything. If anything, I relate more to worrying about competence. I am attracted to perfectionist girls in an ESFj sense, but I am not at all concerned with "being flawed".

Five: Observer, Thinker, Investigator - Fives are motivated by the desire to understand the world around them, specifically in terms of facts. Believing they are only worth what they contribute, Fives have learned to withdraw, to watch with keen eyes and speak only when they can shake the world with their observations. Sometimes they do just that. However, some Fives are known to withdraw from the world, becoming reclusive hermits and fending off social contact with abrasive cynicism. Fives fear incompetency or uselessness and want to be capable and knowledgeable above all else. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Five is Avarice, while the Five's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Omniscience. Under stress, Fives express qualities of the Seven, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Eight.

Seems better than 1. I will withdraw, I am an LII and INTJ, introverted. IJ.

Eight: Leader, Protector, Challenger - Eights are motivated by justice and the desire to be in the right. They worry about self-protection and control. They are natural leaders, who can be either capable and passionate or dictatorially manipulative, ruthless, and willing to destroy anything in their way. Eights seek control over their own lifes and destinies, and fear being harmed or controlled by others. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Eight is Lust, while the Eight's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Truth. Under stress, Eights express qualities of the Five, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Two.

I have flourished in leadership positions.


I believe my variant may be extremely social, if that's the right one, because I will modify my behaviors to optimize the situation. If leadership is needed, then I will fill that gap

Social Instinctual Variant

The social variant of five is focused in particular in finding a specialized and indispensable role in their community. They appear to be more "open" and friendlier than the other variants, willing to discuss and debate ideas in diverse fields. They frequently find themselves in the role of advisor or behind-the-scenes expert, whether they consciously strive for it or not. They can also be active commentators and critics of the outside world. However, it nowhere means that social fives are less "hoarding" than the other variants, for they can express and withhold ideas selectively as means of wielding power. Less healthy social fives, in particular, can have a very grim view on humans and societies in general, and they will develop long treatises to support the outlook.

May be.

[UDP]

http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneagram.html#8

8. The confronter The aggressive power-seeker

"Power is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible." - From the movie Enter the Dragon, starring Bruce Lee

8s come across as the toughest of the Enneagram personalities. At work, average eights can be assertive to a fault - they like to speak their minds bluntly, make quick but forceful decisions, and respect others who do the same. They demand and need a high degree of autonomy, and when they feel controlled by authority, they often show an unmistakable defiant streak. They are often shrewd in using circumstances to their material advantage. They do not like threats to their dominance, or people who hide information from them, and may force confrontations with others to get the truth, however uncomfortable it may be. 8s like to have the final say on things, but they may also give tremendous autonomy, within certain absolute limits, to subordinates they trust, which others find very empowering. Eights may show a softer side at home, where their strength is used not to dominate, but to protect. 8s are the prototypical "father figures", (even if they are women). When eights are secure in their dominance, they may expand their caring side by becoming magnanimous and generous. However, insecure 8s are the most tyrannical, destructive, and self-serving types. Many historically great world leaders are 8s, but so are many ordinary people who project a strong sense of being their own person, refusing to be used or led by others.

.....

POLR

It is very critical to the methods of rough and cheap action. Robesp'era it is not possible to subordinate to volitional pressure. Any attempt to press on it inevitably leads to the conflict. It does not yield to the arm-twisting even when this threatens its life. It will not make it possible to humble itself, it will not make it possible "to take itself as the throat" - better it will die. It will not make it possible to pinch itself in the rights - it immediately demonstratively resists this (its kind preventive measure).

100% true



I'm still not saying I am an 8 type.
Yet also, to say that I have no E8 traits would be false.



PS: one thing I never complied with ( no pun intended) in some LII descriptions is the act of "not defending it's interests", or something like that. That has never been the case for me. Many, many things are not very to me. But if it is, etc etc...
I never take lightly to being screwed over, in any instance, or someone causing a threat to my environment. I never shy away. I was also never treated as a 'geek" or "nerd" in highschool, the kind you see jocks or otherwise picking on, etc, in stereotypical TV shows.


PPS: In specific, the idea of an LII as a "pushover" is something I disagree with completely, at least in my case.

[FDG]

I think that the 8 traits you see in yourself are manifestations of type 1 that are in common with type 8. But you're of course free to disagree, eheh.

I don't think many people think about INTjs as pushoevers, btw.

[Phaedrus]

I actually feel like saying I am a 5 at the core, presently. Because everything is dependent on my grasp of the truth. Truth relates to principles. Principles relates to taking charge.

Very interesting. As an INTp I completely agree with the first two of the bolded sentences but not with the last one. Maybe that reflects the phenomenon that both INTjs and INTps can identify with a lot in INTj type descriptions. Both think that truth and principles are very important. But INTj/INTJs and INTp/INTPs have very different attitudes towards taking charge and being in leadership positions.

Without principles, I cannot take charge nor have an urge to dominate.

I agree. But I don't have to take charge (nor having an urge to dominate) to have principles.

Without being sure of what is true (static IJ), or what is real, I cannot develop principles.

Not entirely true, since an IP ILI can also develop principles. And some principles are more fundamental than knowing what is true, for example having a scientific attitude towards questions of truth.

To me, really, this all is very clear if you read MBTI INTJ profiles, specifically in regard to their nature of taking charge. They are not at all one to sit back and watch something be done in a shitty way.

Absolutely right. That's one reason why no INTp can be an INTJ. That INTps and INTPs have no interest in taking charge is accentuated in both MBTT and socionic type descriptions (for example Stratiyevskaya's).

Key Motivations: Want to be self-reliant, to prove their strength and resist weakness, to be important in their world, to dominate the environment, and to stay in control of their situation.

I can relate to all of that.

Here you express a very J attitude -- another side of the same coin. INTps want to be self-reliant, prove their strength and resist weakness too, but they don't wan't to dominate the environment. Instead they have a tendency to flee from it if necessary.

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

I can understand where you are getting at that from a Socionics LII perspective. But it should also be remembered that I feel very strongly about being an MBTI INTJ.

UDP, you are a prototypical example of an INTj/INTJ. We should all use you as a reference example of an INTj.

I have flourished in leadership positions.

If leadership is needed, then I will fill that gap

Perfectly INTJ, perfectly INTj.

[UDP]

Without being sure of what is true (static IJ), or what is real, I cannot develop principles.

Not entirely true, since an IP ILI can also develop principles. And some principles are more fundamental than knowing what is true, for example having a scientific attitude towards questions of truth.

I didn't mean to imply that IJ is the only temperment that can be that way. I just thought it was more an example of what Expat was talking about in terms of Static IJs. But that is more of an estimated guess than anything else.

Key Motivations: Want to be self-reliant, to prove their strength and resist weakness, to be important in their world, to dominate the environment, and to stay in control of their situation.

I can relate to all of that.

Here you express a very J attitude -- another side of the same coin. INTps want to be self-reliant, prove their strength and resist weakness too, but they don't wan't to dominate the environment. Instead they have a tendency to flee from it if necessary.

Hmmm.... I am not exactly keen on 'dominating' my environment for the sake of it. But I won't tolerate being in an disadvantageous position. Sometimes, when I know the situation is not to my benefit, I will pull out and go elsewhere.

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

I can understand where you are getting at that from a Socionics LII perspective. But it should also be remembered that I feel very strongly about being an MBTI INTJ.

UDP, you are a prototypical example of an INTj/INTJ. We should all use you as a reference example of an INTj.

[UDP]

To me, really, this all is very clear if you read MBTI INTJ profiles, specifically in regard to their nature of taking charge. They are not at all one to sit back and watch something be done in a shitty way.

Absolutely right. That's one reason why no INTp can be an INTJ. That INTps and INTPs have no interest in taking charge is accentuated in both MBTT and socionic type descriptions (for example Stratiyevskaya's).

I will say I knew one person typed as INTP who excelled and became class president in HS. But he may have actually been INTJ... in that, I don't know if being an MBTI necessarily means you have no desire at all for leadership or such positions.

But I can't really say because I have no idea what it is really like to be INTP or ILI either.

[machintruc]

Well, INTjs DO NOT resemble 8s by any stretch of the imagination - maybe they wish to

There are potentially all enneagram "variants" of all sociotypes. There are 144 potential combinations. Some are frequent and some infrequent.

For example, I know and have known some Eights ; I know more or less their inherent tendancies. By observing, I found an approximation that 2/3 are E-types and 1/3 are I-types.

Eights are not necessarily energy-spending, but they act mainly in the material, tangible world ; they are often Sensoric types.

Eights E--- are more leading-oriented, agressive, pushy, overly honest, and Eights I--- are more control-oriented, are mainly unagressive but can behave as extremely arrogant, cold and unlovable.

It is difficult to find a 8-IN type, but 8-IS types are not infrequent, especially 8-ISTj. Eights' statistical preferences are E, S, T, and j.

[Expat]

There are potentially all enneagram "variants" of all sociotypes. There are 144 potential combinations. Some are frequent and some infrequent.

If you look at the Enneagram types' and the Socionics types' motivations, rather than their behavior, it is clear that some combinations make no sense since they are contradictory.

For example, 3 and INTp or ISTp. 3's core motivation is to reach the social role of an achiever - in other words, to be seen by others as a "winner". INTps and ISTps, by contrast, avoid the very concept of being identified with a social role.

Therefore, I find it very difficult to explain how someone could be a Socionics INTp or ISTp and an Enneatype 3 at the same time. That is to say, it makes no sense. Likewise, what kind of ENFj would be an Enneagram 5 in their core motivations? Of course an ENFj could behave like a 5, but that's something else.

On my model --

I think the "disintegrating" and "growth" bit are more complex. I think that to think of "arrows" is more useful. For instance, I am reaching the conclusion that Enneatypes 3 and 6 can often be mixed up, but not necessarily because of "growth" or "disintegration".

I think that - most typically - Ennegram 6s are ISFjs. The "I want to be seen as a winner" bit that sometimes makes them resemble 3s could be seen as a manifestation of the PoLR, in the sense that they dislike references to their "potential" as compared to others'. There is a subtle difference with regard to how a true 3 is motivated, though. A true 3 - most typically an ENFj - sees their "achievement" as a social role, that is, how they are perceived by others socially. An ISFj-6 "becoming" a 3 - especially if counterphobic - is motivated less due to their social role, but to a dislike of having their weak view of their own potential exposed.

Likewise, I would say that ENFjs who "become" 6s are sort of "grasping" at specific individual loyalties and bonds at moments of low confidence in their broader social role - but perhaps also when reinforcing that role even when they are confident about it.

So, although 3s and 6s may be mistaken for one another, they remain different, just like ENFjs and ISFJs.

[machintruc]

If you look at the Enneagram types' and the Socionics types' motivations, rather than their behavior, it is clear that some combinations make no sense since they are contradictory.

This is possibly because Socionic types are actually not inborn, but generated by Enneagram types...

One Enneagram theorist said Enneagram types were actually based on neurochemical levels (serotonin, norepinephrin, dopamin)

Possibly, neurochemicals can "generate" a Sociotype, as an "adaptation" to his Enneatype ; this could explain why there are rare and frequent combinations ; possibly an Enneatype has not 6.25% probablility for having each Sociotype.

Serotonin would be High for 792, Moderate for 135, Low for 468
Norepinephrin would be High for 567, Moderate for 234, Low for 891
Dopamin would be High for 378, Moderate for 612, Low for 945

[FDG]

I did not think they existed, but I recently got to know an ISTp-7w8


"t is difficult to find a 8-IN type, but 8-IS types are not infrequent, especially 8-ISTj. Eights' statistical preferences are E, S, T, and j."

Most definitely, I have no doubts that ISTj and ISTp 8s can exist, my objection was on INTjs.

[machintruc]

I did not think they existed, but I recently got to know an ISTp-7w8


"t is difficult to find a 8-IN type, but 8-IS types are not infrequent, especially 8-ISTj. Eights' statistical preferences are E, S, T, and j."

Most definitely, I have no doubts that ISTj and ISTp 8s can exist, my objection was on INTjs.

basically, 378 means "energy-having" and not "energy-spending"

378 are stastistically extroverts, except 8 self-preservation variant ; but these are only correlations. and 7 I-types are extremely rare ; the only one I know is Fabien Chabreuil (7-INFP)

INTj's who seems to be 8 are probably 1. Ones are pretty strong too...

[FDG]

I did not think they existed, but I recently got to know an ISTp-7w8


"t is difficult to find a 8-IN type, but 8-IS types are not infrequent, especially 8-ISTj. Eights' statistical preferences are E, S, T, and j."

Most definitely, I have no doubts that ISTj and ISTp 8s can exist, my objection was on INTjs.

basically, 378 means "energy-having" and not "energy-spending"

Eh. Actually this ISTp spends energy too. Like when sitting he's always squirming etc etc...so it doesn't disprove the energy expenditure thingy.

[machintruc]

I did not think they existed, but I recently got to know an ISTp-7w8


"t is difficult to find a 8-IN type, but 8-IS types are not infrequent, especially 8-ISTj. Eights' statistical preferences are E, S, T, and j."

Most definitely, I have no doubts that ISTj and ISTp 8s can exist, my objection was on INTjs.

basically, 378 means "energy-having" and not "energy-spending"

Eh. Actually this ISTp spends energy too. Like when sitting he's always squirming etc etc...so it doesn't disprove the energy expenditure thingy.

Gulenko actually said E = energy-spending and I = energy-saving

an I-type can like physical activities, but generally they use an energy-saving behaviour

[Stormy]

If you look at the Enneagram types' and the Socionics types' motivations, rather than their behavior, it is clear that some combinations make no sense since they are contradictory.

This is possibly because Socionic types are actually not inborn, but generated by Enneagram types...

I was thinking along the same lines - Socionics Type represents a social role we adopt (within the 'Socion'). Within a culture, certain roles afford certain rewards, therefore different Enneagram Types will be attracted to different roles based on those rewards and hence some role/Type combinations will be less common than others.

[Dmitri Lytov]

Expat, in my opinion it's easy to compare Enneagram type descriptions with those in Socionics. I already know an attempt to compare these types can give you a link (Russian with automatic translation into English). There were even more attempts to compare Enneagram types to MBTI types.

However, the Enneagram already has several type questionnaries, some of them are available online. Why cannot you perform a comparative experiment, i.e. let people with known socionic types fill out the questionnaire and report their results to you? Such empirical research will be more reliable than mere speculations.

I remember I saw a questionnaire here:
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

[Expat]

Expat, in my opinion it's easy to compare Enneagram type descriptions with those in Socionics. I already know an attempt to compare these types can give you a link (Russian with automatic translation into English). There were even more attempts to compare Enneagram types to MBTI types.

Yes, I know the MBTI ones -- I'd appreciate the link to the Russian one for Socionics.

However, the Enneagram already has several type questionnaries, some of them are available online. Why cannot you perform a comparative experiment, i.e. let people with known socionic types fill out the questionnaire and report their results to you? Such empirical research will be more reliable than mere speculations.

Because I am trying to compare the types as concepts -- Enneagram test results, especially those of the Enneagram Institute, are very often all across the board. I usually get strong results for 8, 5, 1 and 6, more or less in that order, but with a not-that-strong preference. They say you are a 7 because you had, say, 80% for 7 but 75% for 8 etc.

[Stormy]

Enneagram 1: Static IJ, focus on Ti (typically: ISTj) content with static state, finding reassurance in it, panicking when about to change, reaction is to stick to static state.

E1s don't fear change - they are sometimes known as 'Reformers', instigators of change. E6s and E9s are more anxious of change.

Growth into E6: sense of satisfaction with projected social role leads to closer interaction with selected few and hopes for satisfactory static state to remain unchanged.

E3s don't Integrate to E6 by becoming satisfied with their projected social role - the Integrate by relinquishing their projected social role, thus finding their true value(s).

[Dmitri Lytov]

Expat, in my opinion it's easy to compare Enneagram type descriptions with those in Socionics. I already know an attempt to compare these types can give you a link (Russian with automatic translation into English). There were even more attempts to compare Enneagram types to MBTI types.

Yes, I know the MBTI ones -- I'd appreciate the link to the Russian one for Socionics.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...2Fsb_mens1.htm

[FDG]

Expat, in my opinion it's easy to compare Enneagram type descriptions with those in Socionics. I already know an attempt to compare these types can give you a link (Russian with automatic translation into English). There were even more attempts to compare Enneagram types to MBTI types.

Yes, I know the MBTI ones -- I'd appreciate the link to the Russian one for Socionics.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...2Fsb_mens1.htm

So how do you explain the incredibly though, commanding, blah blah socionics bullcrap SLE that is THE MOST correlated with enneatype 7, whose depiction is really different from the common sle stereotype? IMHO, it's socionics that has amped up sle-s to the stereotype

[Dmitri Lytov]

I do not care about the Enneagram, it's not my cup of tea.