Smilingeyes reposts as helped by google

[Smilingeyes]

This post not for rent

[Smilingeyes]

an original biographical article by
Dr Strangeeyes
...

Many people constantly are amazed by my claim that I have changed my personality type. I'm going to try to write what I experienced and try to make the connections to personality types. You are free to, if you so wish, to make claims afterward.

The following narrative, though true for the most part, will contain enough lies that I hopefully won't be recognized by anyone whose not supposed to.

That includes you.

.....

When I was a kid, I was heavily introvert, I mostly played with whatever toys I had and watched people. I watched people like a deer in the headlights watches the car. I was a very scared little kid. I was scared of the dark, monkeys, spies, my cousin, aliens, hippies, trolls, onions but most of all I was scared of death. Except that I wasn't afraid of dying per se. I was afraid of things ending. In some way, though my life was rather miserable in all it's being afraidness, I also loved my fears and wouldn't have exchanged my lot for anything.

What's particularly interesting is that I expressed my fears usually that I was afraid of the passing of time. You see, I was a very nice, a very proper child. That's the way I wanted it to be. I wanted to be the best possible child in the world. And somehow I believed that that would lead to good things, and whenever something bad happened, it was bad and whenever something good happened, it was bad too, because I was afraid that that was all the good that was ever going to happen and that now it was over. Thus, I never wanted anything to happen. I was afraid of the passing of time.

By now, it will not come as a surprise to you, that this would be easily recognized as 4th function Ni. When I add to this, the matter that as a child, I was the brainy kid, and not only any old brainy kid, I was the child with perfect self control. I never laughed and rarely had any actual real emotions at all, you'll soon notice that I was an ESTj.

Me being an ESTj was probably not a circumstance of upbringing as my family consisted of parents INTj&ISFj and brother ENTp (who later turned ESTp). So was I born into it? Was ESTj my natural type? Is it still it? Thing is, when Jung originally wrote about natural types he wrote that dysfunction and unhappiness is sometimes caused can be caused by being diverted from one's natural type. Well, my childhood was miserable, and I was miserable being an ESTj. I was also pretty weird and dysfunctional. (heck, I was a delta, and thus a very strong strange personality).

I continued this way for a rather long while. During these years it was quite common for me to change into ESFj in certain situations when I was trying to make proven friends happy but this was short-living and an aberration of the normal circumstances. I was naturally bullied being "smarter" than the rest of the school together as was once proven in a trivia quiz of me vs. school and I was a natural loner anyway (delta)...

Again, I was not happy. I was not happy due to the circumstances but I was also not really happy when I was by myself. I didn't allow myself to be so.

Things came to a breaking point somewhere in the upper classes of school. People like to think that school violence is something like a recent thing, while it of course isn't. There was a person in my school whose tongue was branded by gang members. Another one was bathed in kerosene. Violence seemed a lot more personal and creative in those days. Anyways, I was sufficiently in fear of my life that I decided that I could not keep on living the way I had.

While I had previously been shy and introverted I forced myself to become happy in all situations and make friends of everyone around me. I started wearing purposefully flashy things and started to practice witticisms and social-related skills, like card games and magic tricks. Also I started to concentrate more on play-writing, something I had previously only dabbled in and now formed a theatre group. Pretty soon I had the whole school around my little finger, including people who had bullied me previously. At the same time my earlier earned skills in academic subjects remained above the level of anyone around me.


At this time I moved to another city and started high school.

This would easily be characterized as one of the happiest times in my life. While my persona change was artificial, it didn't feel fake. My persona had always been first and foremost about quality and surpassing others. So why couldn't I turn this interest into the social life. At the same time I started experimenting with feelings. I had become very aware of how odd it was not to have any and was also slightly disturbed by experiencing nightly violent nightmares for 10 straight years. I started trying to push myself into situations that would cause a maximal feeling reaction in myself. I took a role of "school psychiatrist" because I wanted to hear as many sob stories as I could. It also helped the social thing.

Around this time my fear of time passing went away. I thought I just grew out of it.

While I was still the same me, I had socially turned completely different and the change helped me. I not only learned new skills but the overall quality of my life was better.

High school came to an end and university called. The change was dramatic again. I felt that I had been practicing my all life for this stage. This was what I had believed I had kept up my quality standards for. Imagine my surprise when I found out that in the university nobody cared for your quality, least of all the students. The assortment of moneygreedy fools, test-cheating beer-guzzling frat boys and scared-of-everything nerdies was a complete shock.

Therefore I rejected the student body and started charming the faculty. Pretty soon I was involved in a number of research groups and was actively courted by faculty members. But thing is, this was no longer an environment in which tests were set beforehand in such a way that success was possible. The people who succeed in research are no longer the people with the brightest minds, it's the people who are willing to go through every possible path of failure to finally find, if not the correct, at least the best answer. (This is how it is in medicine, in other fields, the situation is undoubtedly different).

Anyway, not being able to succeed in a research project, even if the fault was not personally mine, was again a massive crisis. At that point I thought I started to feel really bad again. I started doing more and more work in a futile effort to keep up the standards of success I had set. I thought I was reverting to the habits of childhood but actually this was very different. As a kid, it was all about me and my success. When I was starting my research career I was afraid of being thought a fake. I was more concerned with avoiding failure than achieving success. I was concerned with appearances. I was environmentally concious and started manipulating it to appear better. I had gone ENFj.

At that time I started doing politics for real. I joined a party and competed for party positions. Due to academic background I started my own policy analysis group and it became rather succesful. I started picking out good guys to help, write speeches for them and so on. I did all of this while being fully cognisant that this was in no way related to my earlier life or career. I did this because I felt that this is what people should do. People should be politically interested and active. People should try to mold the society to become a better place.

It was around this time that I found my soon to be wife an later ex-wife. She was a sociohistorian and politics was a common interest to us. She was an ESTp and I fell in love with her because I thought she looked like an army officer. At that time I was feeling very vulnerable and attracted to strong cold women. In the beginning, our relationship was mutually psychologically negative, but we developed it into something better. During that development I became calm. For financial reasons I had the control of our relationship and this taught me again how to be in control, this time not of myself but my whole environment. My wife started molding more and more to my will and became happier at the same time. While I was becoming an ENTj, she was becoming an ESFp. This was the happiest time in our relationship and was in general a very happy time in my life as well. I continued doing politics but at that time, for the first time ever, my creativity died out. I became unable to write plays. On the other hand my ability to do research soared. I was no longer the academic virtuoso in the group, I just naturally took control of the projects around me. It was strange. I felt I had the least understanding of what I was doing in a concrete way I had ever had, yet I seemed to be trusted in a way I had never before been. I felt like I was riding the biggest wave in the world in a limousine. But you know, a limousine has no business being on a wave in the first place.

I still felt smarter than anyone else around me... Just, for the first time, I simultaneously knew I had no idea what I was doing. Only, I was quite certain neither had anyone else. I started doing stock investments, and did very well. At the same time I was increasingly aware of how there was an asynchrony in how I was living my life and what was my position in life. A medical researcher, no matter how good and succesful he is, is a very minor character in the world. I felt succesful in life, yet I had not actually gained the trappings to validate the feeling. Also, the marriage, while a positive force in my life (now that we'd both left our negativity behind us) was still somehow, inexplicably not fulfilling. I had memories about a series of teen-age sweethearts that all had had a certain undescribable quality that my wife was lacking. (later on I have come to notice that the objects of my interest had all been IJs, first INFjs, later INTjs of a progressively more thinking variety, until I found my wife-to-be. .... Ok, there was an interlude with a couple of INTps which was very confusing as they were actually my conflicting partners at the time...)

So...

I was sort of happy, but static. Actually I was very happy and very static. And then I knew I had to somehow leave behind what I had and try again. But a life is not something that is easily changed. Even if my life's guiding rule had always been that giving in, adapting, is the path to victory, it still wasn't easy. Furthermore, while I had before changed only out of necessity and to a direction that was pointed to me by outside sources, I was now doing it out of a vague sense that it should be done, maybe more out of the habit of changing my persona than anything else. I lacked guide posts.

It was around this time that I returned to my earlier interest of archetypes. And while I was in the process of divorce I happily found socionics. At that time I was an ENTj and thought I had been that way forever. Actually, I had always thought I was INTJ but that was in MBTI and yes, I was an MBTI INTJ while I was a socionics ESFj and a socionics ENFj as well. Funny that.

And with socionics I found understanding of what I had been doing & what needed to be done.

During this year I've been trying to turn into an ESTj. I've left almost all my previous friends behind (they just don't seem that important anymore). I'm leaving behind academic research and planning a return to patients (research was always a group effort and pretty boring at that. I continued it for it's social importance.) I'm falling in love with an INFj. I'm finally taking care of my body better. I'm caring less and less about socionics. I know I'm succeeding in many ways and brought this on myself but at the same time I'm feeling miserable. It's a good miserable, but still I'm feeling miserable. Also, the nightmares are back. And so is the fear of passing time. Funny how life can be...

And in all point of my life, I always felt that this was how I had always been and would probably always be.

----------------------

Added notes. During the first years of university, when I was still looking to continue my high school life style, I started a private psychology hot-line. I distributed my phone number as someone to call in evening & night time if you felt you needed to talk to someone. This hobby kept me going through my early university studies. I had never had any education on how to speak to mentally disturbed people, and there were a a lot of them, yet these difficult conversations were never taxing to me, they were refreshing.

During the years of low success in the field of research (partly due to a certain ENTp boss who ran his whole lab to the ground), during the years that I was becoming an ENFj that is, I finally found religion. My INTj father was very religious, but his brand of "robespierrian christianity" had always pushed me away. At that time, I suddenly found Zen, and became the devout buddhist witch I am today. Ok, not today, as I haven't really needed religion for years, but in those days it was what kept me going.
.........

There are undoubtedly a few thousand things I'm omitting and about 20% of that is a flat out lie (though not the important stuff), but this is my experience of how my personality has evolved and why I'm where I'm now doing the things I'm doing and have no intention to stay as an ESTj, my "personality type" for the rest of my life. I hope to still have time to have a child or maybe even a couple (as the girl I'm involved with is significantly younger than I am) but even at the risk of losing her and the dual relation, there's no way I could stand being an ESTj forever. (I still have brief episodes of ENTj activity in my life, and get small ESFjish moments but the ENFj in me is, for the moment, gone, dead, in heaven, buried, grilled, done with. At least that's a good thing.)

So, for the next few years at least, it's all about pushing myself, violent dreams and narcisstic drive for personal success.
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Last edited by Smilingeyes on Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vague



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Extraverted Feeling
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Introverted Intution Extraverted Feeling Subtype: Extraverted Feeling

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Dioklecian



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
And with socionics I found understanding of what I had been doing I what needed to be done.


I didn't fully understand that, I was wondering if you could explain further.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Dioklecian wrote:
Quote:
And with socionics I found understanding of what I had been doing I what needed to be done.


I didn't fully understand that, I was wondering if you could explain further.


A strange typo there.

Should read: And with socionics I found understanding of what I had been doing & what needed to be done.

Meaning of course that I understood that I understood that what was at the time missing from my life was qualities of an ESTj. Socionics gave me a vision of something to strive for, the self-image of an ESTj. Of course I had been it before, but I had forgotten many things about being one. Funny thing is I'm remembering some of those things anew, getting back childhood memories I haven't had for a long time.
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FDG



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love personality chan Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
brother ENTp (who later turned ESTp). .


See, my problem with this is basically rooted in the way descriptions are written.

If an ENTP is described as "stretched legs and arms" and "S body" and "clothes badly fitting" and an ESTp is described as "short and flexible", if I were to become an ENTp, would I be forced to stretch my arms and clothes wouldn't fit me any more? Not to be taken literally, but just to get the idea.
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Se registers all the input sent by female hormones in the range of 1000 kms, without differentiating its input. Se mantains a neutral stance towards every breast size, and even if it prefers larger ones, it remains non-biased and touches them all


I Feel IT in my HEAD http://forum.socionix.com BURniNG INSiDE ME EVERy DAAY
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love personality chan Reply with quote
FDG wrote:
Smilingeyes wrote:
brother ENTp (who later turned ESTp). .


See, my problem with this is basically rooted in the way descriptions are written.

If an ENTP is described as "stretched legs and arms" and "S body" and "clothes badly fitting" and an ESTp is described as "short and flexible", if I were to become an ENTp, would I be forced to stretch my arms and clothes wouldn't fit me any more? Not to be taken literally, but just to get the idea.


I'm running out of ways to ridicule the attempts to connect personality types with bodily and facial anatomy. I have no idea what could make an otherwise reasonable person write something like that in the middle of a personality type description.

The way someone walks, talks, facial movements, sure all of those I've noticed changing in myself and others. Also the way I pick my clothes and the way others seem to clothe themselves I've seen change drastically.

For example in the most recent change I've started using army trousers and camouflage t-shirts. I've also lost a few pounds without really attempting to do so. Facial gestures have for the most part disappeared, as has most of the changes of tone in my voice when I speak. The clothes thing was premeditated. They just feel good at the moment. The other changes were a surprise to me, though I should have remembered them from earlier times. The weight loss was the largest surprise. My ex-wife noticed it way before I did.

As for the changes within some other types. I'm not really sure what kind of things would happen. I haven't experienced them personally in the same way. Would be interesting to hear from others.

I find it possible that it's rare to change with such regularity as I've done. Yet I can't but wonder at how my use of functions and the change in them roughly correlated to the way MBTI guys believe people learn to use their functions. (Though of course the way they divide a person's functions is different).

I have at least one friend who I know has gone through all the possible phases of the EP temperament. My father has been ISTj for one period in his life and is now, after the death of his wife, turning to the other direction and is mostly like an INFj. Yet many other people seem to change very little. My mother was always an ISFj and had been so from childhood or so it seems from the stories she and her sisters told. (Again, there were brief moments of ISTj or INFj behaviour, but apparently no such cataclysmic changes as I've gone through.) The way people change is not something I've kept purposefully track of for years so I'm unfortunately limited to analyzing my closest friends and relations whom I just happen to have known well for a long period of time.
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fever



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
just because u were afraid of things a lot as a child doesn't mean u r an ESTj... neither does fear of time. fear of time can be caused by tragic circumstances in life or just age... that doesn't make u an ESTJ. neither does being a perfectionist.

why is finding a type or not finding a type significant to u? socionics is just an attempt to structure people in a Ti fashion... and it can't be done simply because environment warps the process.

socionics is just a choice perception. anyway, how can anyone really have intuition in their conscious? wouldn't intuition itself be a subconscious thing?
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Does that make me Crazy?
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fever



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
camouflage? is that a color preference?
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And when you're out there - without care
Yeah I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Reply with quote
fever wrote:
just because u were afraid of things a lot as a child doesn't mean u r an ESTj... neither does fear of time. fear of time can be caused by tragic circumstances in life or just age... that doesn't make u an ESTJ. neither does being a perfectionist.

why is finding a type or not finding a type significant to u? socionics is just an attempt to structure people in a Ti fashion... and it can't be done simply because environment warps the process.

socionics is just a choice perception. anyway, how can anyone really have intuition in their conscious? wouldn't intuition itself be a subconscious thing?


I can't describe everything about what I was like as a kid. Being perfect is hidden agenda of ESTj. I also gave you total abscence of Extraverted Feeling, description of Extraverted Thinking and fourth function Introverted Intution. If you want to make a case that I was / am something else than what I claimed to be, do it.

Finding a type is not important to me.

Camouflage as a color scheme fits army trousers in a way that most of the more traditional men's shirts I'm used to wearing do not.

I have no idea what the rest of your message has to do with this thread. If you want to complain about the system of socionics, do it somewhere else. I'm definitely not socionics' main proponent.
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Typhon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for sharing that Smilex. Its interesting to think of type more as a variable than as a dogma, which is transcended by the course of life itself.

I must admit you are a good writer, as well.


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fever



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
I can't describe everything about what I was like as a kid. Being perfect is hidden agenda of ESTj. I also gave you total abscence of Extraverted Feeling , description of Extraverted Thinking and fourth function Introverted Intution . If you want to make a case that I was / am something else than what I claimed to be, do it.


other types can be perfectionist as well even if the so-called HA is different. i know an ESFj that is a perfectionist about certain things but no where to the degree that i have been in the past.

Smilingeyes wrote:
Finding a type is not important to me.


so u write entire pages about yourself on a personality forum for no apparent reason?

Smilingeyes wrote:

I have no idea what the rest of your message has to do with this thread. If you want to complain about the system of socionics, do it somewhere else. I'm definitely not socionics' main proponent.


i'm not really trying to complain about socionics... yeah, i have my doubts about certain aspects just like everyone else, but mainly it is just a fun hobby for me.
in this paragraph...
Smilingeyes wrote:
There are undoubtedly a few thousand things I'm omitting and about 20% of that is a flat out lie (though not the important stuff), but this is my experience of how my personality has evolved and why I'm where I'm now doing the things I'm doing and have no intention to stay as an ESTj, my "personality type" for the rest of my life. I hope to still have time to have a child or maybe even a couple (as the girl I'm involved with is significantly younger than I am) but even at the risk of losing her and the dual relation, there's no way I could stand being an ESTj forever. (I still have brief episodes of ENTj activity in my life, and get small ESFjish moments but the ENFj in me is, for the moment, gone, dead, in heaven, buried, grilled, done with. At least that's a good thing.)


it appears as though u believe that u cannot maintain a relationship with a type unless u act like their dual. that is why it seems as though u r treating this thing like some kind of religion and hence is what the rest of my message was about.

what is the purpose of your post? i'm not sure of which direction it is going in.
_________________
"Crazy" by Gnarls Barkley

And when you're out there - without care
Yeah I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
Possibly
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: Reply with quote
fever wrote:
Smilingeyes wrote:
I can't describe everything about what I was like as a kid. Being perfect is hidden agenda of ESTj. I also gave you total abscence of Extraverted Feeling , description of Extraverted Thinking and fourth function Introverted Intution . If you want to make a case that I was / am something else than what I claimed to be, do it.


other types can be perfectionist as well even if the so-called HA is different. i know an ESFj that is a perfectionist about certain things but no where to the degree that i have been in the past.


Well, duh. ESFjs have the same hidden agenda as ESTjs. And since their hidden agenda is your concious dominating function it stands to reason that you are as well. But there are a lot of types that have absolutely no connection to perfectionism.



Smilingeyes wrote:
Finding a type is not important to me.


so u write entire pages about yourself on a personality forum for no apparent reason?

[/quote]

I state my reason in the very beginning. I have experiences that tell me that personality type changes. I can back it up with theoretical knowledge of why it should and even must be so. I constantly run into people who react to my claims with "Nuh-uh, x said that personality type doesn't change so therefore it can't." I get tired of it. Therefore this is a challenge to anyone who wants to claim that personality type doesn't change. This is about a principle, not about my type. I was actually interested in what people have to say about my type, I'd made a thread under "what's my type?", but I'm not, since I believe I understand very well what type I am.



Smilingeyes wrote:
There are undoubtedly a few thousand things I'm omitting and about 20% of that is a flat out lie (though not the important stuff), but this is my experience of how my personality has evolved and why I'm where I'm now doing the things I'm doing and have no intention to stay as an ESTj, my "personality type" for the rest of my life. I hope to still have time to have a child or maybe even a couple (as the girl I'm involved with is significantly younger than I am) but even at the risk of losing her and the dual relation, there's no way I could stand being an ESTj forever. (I still have brief episodes of ENTj activity in my life, and get small ESFjish moments but the ENFj in me is, for the moment, gone, dead, in heaven, buried, grilled, done with. At least that's a good thing.)


it appears as though u believe that u cannot maintain a relationship with a type unless u act like their dual. that is why it seems as though u r treating this thing like some kind of religion and hence is what the rest of my message was about.

what is the purpose of your post? i'm not sure of which direction it is going in.[/quote]

I believe no such thing. One relationship I had, lasted in a sort of strange on/off fashion from the time I was previously ESTj until the time I started acting like ENFj. Our mutual attraction was strong enough to allow it. You picking that as the central message of the post seems to tell a lot more about your than about my ideas.
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fever



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:

I state my reason in the very beginning. I have experiences that tell me that personality type changes. I can back it up with theoretical knowledge of why it should and even must be so. I constantly run into people who react to my claims with "Nuh-uh, x said that personality type doesn't change so therefore it can't." I get tired of it. Therefore this is a challenge to anyone who wants to claim that personality type doesn't change. This is about a principle, not about my type. I was actually interested in what people have to say about my type, I'd made a thread under "what's my type?", but I'm not, since I believe I understand very well what type I am.


i'm not claiming that personality type doesn't change. but i would say, i can see where someone would doubt u ever having been an F type.... because it is obvious u lack tact!

Smilingeyes wrote:

fever wrote:

Smilingeyes wrote:
There are undoubtedly a few thousand things I'm omitting and about 20% of that is a flat out lie (though not the important stuff), but this is my experience of how my personality has evolved and why I'm where I'm now doing the things I'm doing and have no intention to stay as an ESTj, my "personality type" for the rest of my life. I hope to still have time to have a child or maybe even a couple (as the girl I'm involved with is significantly younger than I am) but even at the risk of losing her and the dual relation, there's no way I could stand being an ESTj forever. (I still have brief episodes of ENTj activity in my life, and get small ESFjish moments but the ENFj in me is, for the moment, gone, dead, in heaven, buried, grilled, done with. At least that's a good thing.)


it appears as though u believe that u cannot maintain a relationship with a type unless u act like their dual. that is why it seems as though u r treating this thing like some kind of religion and hence is what the rest of my message was about.

what is the purpose of your post? i'm not sure of which direction it is going in.


I believe no such thing. One relationship I had, lasted in a sort of strange on/off fashion from the time I was previously ESTj until the time I started acting like ENFj. Our mutual attraction was strong enough to allow it. You picking that as the central message of the post seems to tell a lot more about your than about my ideas.


referring to what i bolded... why do u say such things, if u do not believe that? hello??? are we speaking the same English here?

how old are u anyway???
it sounds like the only thing that u are suffering from here... is hardening of the arteries, obviously from the neck up!!
_________________
"Crazy" by Gnarls Barkley

And when you're out there - without care
Yeah I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
Does that make me Crazy?
Possibly
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fever



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
Therefore this is a challenge to anyone who wants to claim that personality type doesn't change. This is about a principle, not about my type. I was actually interested in what people have to say about my type, I'd made a thread under "what's my type?", but I'm not, since I believe I understand very well what type I am.


"hey, here's a quarter call someone who cares!"


well, thank u anyway... at least for the laughs. Laughing
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Edit: removed harsh language.

*fever ignored*

Edit: This edit isn't entirely due to Expat's interruption. After posting it occurred to me why fever is wrote the kind of things s/he did and I can't really stay too upset about it. Not that I ever was too upset at him/her personally. I'm upset about having my time wasted.

p.s. The ignore function is wonderful. I need to use it more often.

p.p.s. I never meant the insulting words to apply personally to fever, though that was NOT apparent from the way I said it. I addressed the post to the audience exactly the way I wrote it because I wanted it to be a guideline. I'm trying to be generally helpful to people on this forum while not compromising myself. That draws attention from all kinds of people. A lot of it is positive, some is negative. Some is given as a joke, some is given because the person has problems. Sometimes I can help the ones with problems, sometimes they stop me from doing so. It's just life in the forums.

[Smilingeyes]

A short version about the EJ Si vs. IP Ni conflict.

Si thinks Ni is flighty in preparation to tasks and talks him down after the job is done.
He thinks the Ni person is avoiding responsibility and doesn't know what he's talking about because he's all theory while the Si person prefers a more hands-on approach.
He appreciates the Ni person's focus and energy but this just makes the conflict more pointed. It's easier to ignore people who lack focus.
The Si person feels the Ni person takes credit for his actions while also leeching him for ideas and information.
Temperamentally he thinks the Ni person is shifty and tries to turn up-side down or turn grey things that are clear, simple, black and white. I think these are the most common issues from the POV of the Si person.

I'd expect the Ni person would feel the Si person to be crude, selfish and boorish, too loud and unappreciative of other people.
He'd see the Si person as simple-minded, taking things for granted, potentially dangerous and certainly disruptive.
He'd also critique the Si-person's pride and over-confidence.
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Jonathan



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
@jonathan

About the supervisor thing...

Sure, I do think it works.

What model A says is a weak area for you is basically something you are actively trying to ignore. But that doesn't really explain why one is supervisor and the other supervisee because each has an ego function that is in the other's super-ego. (Everyone should know by now that there's no difference in the strength of 1st and 2nd functions on an absolute level).

So what's it about? It's about creative vs. accepting. The accepting function, well, accepts. It's more mobile, it's playful, it's interested. It's about beginnings, whereas the creative function is about endings. Point is, the accepting version is more free to take the position of the creative function than the other way around. You defend your creative function. Hence -> supervision = pushing the accepting person around.


I always like your explanations that clear away the cobwebs of typical preconceptions and replace them with something that makes more sense.

I can definitely see how that would work...basically, if described neutrally, it's really just an information flow. For example, an ENFj creates the product, Introverted Intution, which may be communicated as a grand vision. If the ENFj is able to enlist the services of an INTp, the INTp understands this grand vision very well and is able to create a product (Extraverted Thinking) with it. Because the ENFj started the information flow, the ENFj is "in charge" in this case, although in real life, both people may have mutual respect for each other.

Quote:
I'd expect the Ni person would feel the Si person to be crude, selfish and boorish, too loud and unappreciative of other people.
He'd see the Si person as simple-minded, taking things for granted, potentially dangerous and certainly disruptive.
He'd also critique the Si-person's pride and over-confidence.


I actually tend to see ISFps as very quiet and charming, but sometimes creating the impression of unsophistication (whether not deserved); ISTps are fascinating, but can be offputting (especially if they face the public in a retail business) because they sometimes act as if they don't care about whoever they're talking to. I once had a good friend who was ESTj, and I liked it because he always wanted to know my opinion of things. ESTj bosses have sometimes given me trouble.

(Of course, most people on this forum believe I'm Alpha, so the way I see things may or may not give an indication of how an Introverted Intution person sees other people.)
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Jonathan wrote:


I always like your explanations that clear away the cobwebs of typical preconceptions and replace them with something that makes more sense.

I can definitely see how that would work...basically, if described neutrally, it's really just an information flow. For example, an ENFj creates the product, Introverted Intution, which may be communicated as a grand vision. If the ENFj is able to enlist the services of an INTp, the INTp understands this grand vision very well and is able to create a product (Extraverted Thinking) with it. Because the ENFj started the information flow, the ENFj is "in charge" in this case, although in real life, both people may have mutual respect for each other.


Your grasp on my point is perfect.

Quote:


I actually tend to see ISFps as very quiet and charming, but sometimes creating the impression of unsophistication (whether not deserved); ISTps are fascinating, but can be offputting (especially if they face the public in a retail business) because they sometimes act as if they don't care about whoever they're talking to. I once had a good friend who was ESTj, and I liked it because he always wanted to know my opinion of things. ESTj bosses have sometimes given me trouble.

(Of course, most people on this forum believe I'm Alpha, so the way I see things may or may not give an indication of how an Introverted Intution person sees other people.)


Sure. The title I used in last post was to point out that it was about EJ Si which is quite a different thing from IP Si.
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Olga



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilex, you are fun and it would be a shame if you would ever leave this forum. We shall try to keep your interest in socionic on go. I personally have got no probs with people feeling and thinking in a not traditional way. I have looked through the posts until you started to discuss relationships between ESFJ and INTP.

May be yourtype is not interesting for you but I would love to find out your type. I think it is a fix of rational types? to put everything on the shelf and make a note: stability otherwise undermined and the world is shaky under my feet.

I want badly to know your temperament. If I wont something I usually want it badly Smile (probably due to sensorics).

Your fears of Introverted Intution is not saying to me your possible type. What is it you lack - I mean function - Introverted Intution ? You lack intuition? sensorics? applied logics? emotional expression? You do not like to be a centre of atteniton? I will be happy to share my impression of you from your article but would not wish to do it now Wink .

You said you have repeated nightmares. what are they about, may be you could describe it in more detail?

I believe not in type traveliing but in functional interrelationship, the different development of the blocks and changing through the development of fucntions and blocks. Ofcourse, some types are more flexible and more dynamic and what we can not do - the others can. Anything is posible and I wish socionics to be free from stereotyping and directing and we can do what we want and be what we are. Freedom.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Olga, seriously, thanks. That made me feel good.

Olga wrote:

May be yourtype is not interesting for you but I would love to find out your type. I think it is a fix of rational types? to put everything on the shelf and make a note: stability otherwise undermined and the world is shaky under my feet.


I meant that I'm quite certain that I'm ESTj for all intents and purposes and I'm not really very interested in other people's opinions. I haven't had a What type am I -thread for that reason either. If you want to retype me despite what I said, that's fine by me. I'll try to answer your questions, because I think you're a-ok, as well.

Olga wrote:

I want badly to know your temperament. If I wont something I usually want it badly Smile (probably due to sensorics).


Is there something that makes you doubt EJ?

Olga wrote:

Your fears of Introverted Intution is not saying to me your possible type. What is it you lack - I mean function - Introverted Intution ? You lack intuition? sensorics? applied logics? emotional expression?

I don't really lack any of them. I've done some very effective things with all of those. For the while I prefer to work without emotions because of their limitations. Intuition I still use quite a lot even if I'm trying to use it a bit less. This forum brings it out in me though.

Olga wrote:

You do not like to be a centre of atteniton? I will be happy to share my impression of you from your article but would not wish to do it now Wink .


Centre of attention... that causes me no difficulty. I like to be noticed. But I don't like crowds. I want to have an effect on the person I'm talking to. The effect lessens if there are more listeners. And crowds are more likely to contain idiots and lunatics. So sure, pm me or something, whatever you see as correct.

Olga wrote:

You said you have repeated nightmares. what are they about, may be you could describe it in more detail?


Sure, why not... The most important thing is that they are nightmares with a minimal amount of the element of fear. They are dreams of crisis, war, alien invasion, plane crash, whatever. And I consistently have, in those dreams, the tools to handle and survive the situation. It's a bit like watching action and/or horror movies while being the main character oneself. There's usually also an element of travelling or a certain task that must be accomplished to have the possibility of a good outcome. Varied forces are trying to stop me and I must perpetually find a way to defeat or avoid them. It might be significant that these forces are usually non-human, the closest being anonymous masked soldiers of an unknown enemy state and more typical being predatory animals, undead creatures, errant machinery and lovecraftian/gigeresque horrors. I've never minded having those dreams. Only that for a short period when I was a teen I wondered if having such dreams meant there was something wrong with me.

Olga wrote:

I believe not in type traveliing but in functional interrelationship, the different development of the blocks and changing through the development of fucntions and blocks. Ofcourse, some types are more flexible and more dynamic and what we can not do - the others can. Anything is posible and I wish socionics to be free from stereotyping and directing and we can do what we want and be what we are. Freedom.


Sure, cool, I'm down with that, none of my business and all that jazz.
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Olga



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I do not exclude the possibility of ESFJ. I love this type - they can be nice and soft as introverts and not pushy due to creative Introverted Sensing. They can though suffer from melancholy badly, don't they?

----------------------------------------------


No, I do not wish to re-type people usually. Not just because I do not feel as if I know each type in and out but also because I am happy with what makes people happy. What the point behind typing and socionics?

My impression was that you are ethical, flexible, dynamic and multitalented. By your style of writing or posts I did not feel much of Extraverted Sensing. The ability of play writing portraits you as sensitive or aware of of your internal/subjective world, ability to observe and analyse the world of people. I would rather think about ENFJ but you clearly stated that you do not relay on emotions in dealing with people and i guess you have not been acting much yourself either? so this was a wrong suggestions of mine.


Your search for a career describes you rather as creative person in a social field than somebody in just leading position/management, for example. I always thought that ESTJ are born to be some sort of leaders even if there is nobody to lead.

By temperament I meant : sunguinic, choleric, melancholic or flegmaitc. To what type do you gravitate?

Your dreams could easily relate to ESTJ ( dreams of power S and non-human creatures T). I also dream of power S but related to humans F.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Olga wrote:
I do not exclude the possibility of ESFJ. I love this type - they can be nice and soft as introverts and not pushy due to creative Introverted Sensing. They can though suffer from melancholy badly, don't they? .


Well, every person can, of course, but you wouldn't really call him/her an ESFj when s/he's having it. ESFjs are more often hyperactively happy. Life of the party and all that.

Olga wrote:

The ability of play writing portraits you as sensitive or aware of of your internal/subjective world, ability to observe and analyse the world of people.


As play-writing goes, it might be that my writings are not exactly what you picture. Would it help if I emphasized that the plays are generally driven by the conflict of varied interest groups. They are political plays, by which I try to help people, the actors as much as the audience, understand the natural needs, viewpoints and dispositions of different groups in the society. They are not about believable singular characters but people as groups. I wrote plays with and about archetypes. This is what brought me in contact with socionics in the first place.

Olga wrote:

I would rather think about ENFJ but you clearly stated that you do not relay on emotions in dealing with people and i guess you have not been acting much yourself either? so this was a wrong suggestions of mine.


This is a sticking point for me. I do not accept the idea that I could, even theoretically, act anything else but myself. Naturally I know the phenomenon to which you refer, but it is not easy (quite impossible, really) to base a claim that a certain habit of a person is "the true person" whereas some other habits of his are not "really him/her".

Olga wrote:
Your search for a career describes you rather as creative person in a social field than somebody in just leading position/management, for example. I always thought that ESTJ are born to be some sort of leaders even if there is nobody to lead.


Hmm, I'm not entirely agreeing on the idea that I was searching for a career. I haven't at any point stepped away from the medical career ladder. The varied other things I've done in my life have always been hobbies and not much else.

As far as leadership goes, the socionics community seems to have some very strange ideas. Leadership is much more than being able to cow people into submission, which is basically what ESTs do. Sure they turn up in leadership positions a lot, but they're pretty shitty leaders. As managers on the other hand, they'll do just fine. Finding out that one has an EST boss is a good time to jump ship in any situation.

Come to think of it... EST's are excellent leaders exactly in those situations when they have nobody else to lead but themselves.

Olga wrote:

By temperament I meant : sunguinic, choleric, melancholic or flegmaitc. To what type do you gravitate?


Oh, ok, well, that sort of depends which description one accepts. If one looks at the writings of the people who talk mostly about elements I'm fire/air. If one goes by Hippocrates' personality characteristics I'd be yellow bile/phlegm. Of Aristotle's sources of happiness I'd pick ethical virtue and logical investigation. Of Galen's temperament descriptions I'd pick melancholic and phlegmatic. Of Paracelsus' totem spirits I've the strongest connection to salamanders and gnomes. Of Adicke's world views I subscribe to innovation. Of Spränger's value attitudes I subscribe to economic and religious. Of Kretchmer's character styles I claim hyperestheticism. Erich Fromm's orientations would point me towards receptive.

Generally it points slightly towards choleric. The things that don't work in the general choleric description is that I've no wish to dominate anyone except myself. Not necessarily even lead. Guide is a verb I'd accept.




Nice to have you back.
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Jonathan



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: Reply with quote
This discussion makes me think about an idea I've had that what defines a type often has more to do with the axial (i.e., dual) connections one makes mentally than it has to do with the actual strength of functions.

Hence, an ISFp, for example, differs from an INFp not in having weak or suppressed Introverted Intution, but in being the flip side of an NT instead of being the flip side of ST. Hence, for an Introverted Intution dominant person to perform music or play a role in a play that's ISFp, you don't try to be less Introverted Intution; rather you reinforce NT and associate F with S.

So I suppose one can be ESj by virtue of forming mental connections with INj. It would be a shame, however, to try to suppress Introverted Intution, which is such a rich source of ideas.

Anyhow, it seems that personal growth comes through the forming of connections, not suppression; for example, ETjs can 'dualize' with INFj without needing to having "weak" Introverted Intution.

Just some thoughts. Smile
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Olga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Olga wrote:
By temperament I meant : sunguinic, choleric, melancholic or flegmaitc. To what type do you gravitate?


Smilex wrote:
Oh, ok, well, that sort of depends which description one accepts. If one looks at the writings of the people who talk mostly about elements I'm fire/air. If one goes by Hippocrates' personality characteristics I'd be yellow bile/phlegm. Of Aristotle's sources of happiness I'd pick ethical virtue and logical investigation. Of Galen's temperament descriptions I'd pick melancholic and phlegmatic. Of Paracelsus' totem spirits I've the strongest connection to salamanders and gnomes. Of Adicke's world views I subscribe to innovation. Of Spränger's value attitudes I subscribe to economic and religious. Of Kretchmer's character styles I claim hyperestheticism. Erich Fromm's orientations would point me towards receptive

What a shame I did not hear about all those systems of differentiation.
Why did you say you would choose between phlegmatic and melancholic and then came out as choleric at the end. Are you reactive? Cholerics suppose to be reactive or outwordly negatively emotional more often than other types. Could it be that you are:

Choleric melancholic type being less flegmatic and the least sunguinic?
All this temperament thing is a new toy for me as I associate it with blocks and model B.
You surely are an extravert if you can project the interests of groups in your play writing.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Olga wrote:

Smilex wrote:
Oh, ok, well, that sort of depends...would point me towards receptive

What a shame I did not hear about all those systems of differentiation.
Why did you say you would choose between phlegmatic and melancholic and then came out as choleric at the end. Are you reactive? Cholerics suppose to be reactive or outwordly negatively emotional more often than other types. Could it be that you are:

Choleric melancholic type being less flegmatic and the least sunguinic?
All this temperament thing is a new toy for me as I associate it with blocks and model B.
You surely are an extravert if you can project the interests of groups in your play writing.


Oh, see all of the typings I mentioned supposedly correlate with the four temperaments of Galen. People just seem to have very differing views on what constitutes these temperaments and the descriptions are not 1 to 1 congruent.

The reason I feel phlegmatic is that I'm controlling my emotions to their death. It's a long-term part of me. It's also the reason I feel that the part about the anger in the choleric temperament is not a part of me. Yet, the fact that I so firmly and pointedly reject it in myself can also imply that it infact IS important to me, and even despite my rejection of acting in anger there are people who would describe me as a person who occasionally blows a fuse.

In the choleric temperament descriptions it is often emphasized that these are people who feel the need to dominate, lead or command others. This too is something that is instinctually strange, even revulsive to me. So, because there are these few things that people strongly emphasize in the nature of cholericism I can't associate myself with it easily.

Yet many other terms and matters that people associate with cholericism, that are emphasized in other, allegedly associated typings, strike true. And I have to accept that some of the things that I do, from the view point of other people could easily, and often do, seem domineering. So the picture I get is that it would in fact benefit me, to accept the fact that I am choleric and mainly try to keep it's negative aspects somewhat in control, while perhaps learning to appreciate it's positive aspects.

About being reactive... For the usual meaning of the word, yes, extremely, I wouldn't hesitate to call myself overreactive.

(I'm no expert in any of the systems I mentioned, I just browsed through some web pages, starting with the wiki article on the 4 humors.)

(Yes, being an extrovert is another thing I needed to learn into when I got to know socionics.)
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Olga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I am also controlling my emotions very hard and I could be reactive but i hate it when I blow up. I feel much more comfortable as if I do not show emotions but keep it in me. In this case I can "teach" how to act and do react rationally. I am very sensitive but i would not say I am overreactive. I do react with actions rather than with emotions. I do feel emotions but not show rather act. It could be due to my creative Se. When I am concentrated on something - many things around me - do not matter or definetly can wait - that is another feature of being flegmatic.

Could you please, show what does it mean being choleric from your experience. Does it mean that it is norm for you to show temper? Something like defending and confirming your space and position, your power, your will to act as you wish?

Do you think, it istrue that all EJ are sharing this feature - being more choleric than any other type?
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Olga wrote:

Could you please, show what does it mean being choleric from your experience. Does it mean that it is norm for you to show temper? Something like defending and confirming your space and position, your power, your will to act as you wish?


I'm not quite certain that I can give you a satisfying answer here. I haven't thought much about the galenic temperaments since I judged them a long time ago to be kind of fuzzy and inadequate, so I'm having to do some on the spot thinking here, forming new opinions.

It's my understanding that the classical idea was a sort of natural division of virtues of different classes of people ... as much based on idealism and explaining social hierarchies as real observation of fact. ...
On a personal level the choleric temperament means to me: answering challenges (unless they're obviously jokes /traps/ trolling), taking responsibility for things even when I don't need to, carrying things to a proper end, always trying to give my all ie. not saving or hiding anything.

Olga wrote:

Do you think, it istrue that all EJ are sharing this feature - being more choleric than any other type?


I think it could very well be so, but I'm pretty sure that a person who had a different understanding of the temperaments could claim that IJs or EPs are the choleric ones. At the moment and personally, yes, I do feel there's some reason to say that EJs are the cholerics.
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FDG



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
SE: What about ExTj being the most choleric, with ExTp paired with ExFj as second? I would say that pertaning to the ExTx group makes the impression of being slightly more choleric.

Also, there's a problem by defining choleric as reactive: Sanguines are just as reactive, but the sensation does not form roots in their psyche after the reaction.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote
FDG wrote:
SE: What about ExTj being the most choleric, with ExTp paired with ExFj as second? I would say that pertaning to the ExTx group makes the impression of being slightly more choleric.

Also, there's a problem by defining choleric as reactive: Sanguines are just as reactive, but the sensation does not form roots in their psyche after the reaction.


Yes, you're obviously correct. It's not easy to claim a 1 to 1 connection and making such depends on selective understanding of the galenic temperaments. The originator of course did not know anything of socionics so it's a bit of a retcon to claim that anything socionics-related is _for sure_ the same phenomenon observed by him, yet these kind of claims are extremely common in the socionics community and the psychology community at large and have been for centuries. Nobody can teach Galen socionics and ask him what his opinion is, so every argument on this subject is a matter of personal understanding, a choice of importance of certain aspects of Galen's descriptions over others.

I certainly don't agree with using anything by Galen as evidence for anything socionics related.

So... what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that I don't have enough knowledge on this subject and anything I say about it is just testing ideas.

It's just, an ESTJ likes to find answers even when they're obviously not final answers. So, if one believes, as I, that the socionics temperaments are the most static thing about socionics and tries to connect the galenic temperaments, the obvious way to go, seems to be to connect it to the temperaments. And in general the EJs seem to have the closest connection to choleric and the EPs to sanguine. Still, if we look only at an ESTp and an ESFj we would likely turn it around, call the ESTp the choleric and the ESFj the sanguine, so it's not perfect.

It becomes even more convoluted when we take into account that Galen's work was already a retcon of earlier material and that the idea of a person really being bound by his temperament was actually a much later, medieval invention. Hippocrates' four humors theory said that everyone was the sum of his four bodily humors(temperaments) and the objective was not to use what you were strongest in but to achieve balance. Socionists don't like this idea because they don't like balance at all. But I do.

So if I'd take the earlierst humor-related material and equate that into socionics I'd get the idea that each socionic temperament would have a state dominated by a certain humor. I might equate this into
alpha = sanguine = spring
beta = choleric = summer
gamma = melancholic = autumn
delta = phlegmatic = winter
(with the season mentioned being traditionally attributed to a certain humor)
and what do you know, that seems like quadra progression.

But then comes someone who points out that each humor was also attributed to a body-type and those don't change the same way. Well, the origins of physiognomy are very early and it seems to be a sort of natural way for people to perceive things. But thing is, the original idea on that was similar to the following reasoning: "red hair equals fiery temperament" or "he looks like a horse, he must have character traits of a horse too", and yes people seemed to really believe that. Much much later on these ideas sprouted such scientific gems as phrenology and were partly to blame for the birth of eugenics. I scorn physiognomy and find it harmful in every way.

And now I notice that I'm long-winded and still unable to give definite answers on anything. So I'll stop.

..
..
..
p.s.

quote:
SE: ...

quote FDG's signature
Se registers all the input sent by female hormones in the range of 1000 kms, without differentiating its input. Se mantains a neutral stance towards every breast size, and even if it prefers larger ones, it remains non-biased and touches them all

...

I hope I'm not the only one to find mirth in substituting Se with SE (SmilingEyes) in that quote.

[Smilingeyes]

I'll call you back, said the post.

[Smilingeyes]

This post is not home.

[Smilingeyes]

<censored>

[Smilingeyes]

A thing about these dichotomies that I feel, needs to be really understood, is that these descriptions are not the qualities themselves but a description of some of the results of possessing the quality itself. The concept behind the dichotomy is mathematical, yet you can't use the descriptions in a mathematical way. Therefore, the description is not the whole of the quality but a small piece of it, okay?
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anndelise



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
A thing about these dichotomies that I feel, needs to be really understood, is that these descriptions are not the qualities themselves but a description of some of the results of possessing the quality itself. The concept behind the dichotomy is mathematical, yet you can't use the descriptions in a mathematical way. Therefore, the description is not the whole of the quality but a small piece of it, okay?


I'm not quite sure what you mean.

I would like to see how the function combinations (or their underlying factors that I had listed) directly lead to the dichotomies or descriptions. I see a lot of after the fact type stuff...like...if a person has such and such basic...then they do this...but nothing tells me, X function leads to C behavior, and here's how.
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Smilingeyes



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
anndelise wrote:


I would like to see how the function combinations (or their underlying factors that I had listed) directly lead to the dichotomies or descriptions.


So would I

Yet it seems that these qualities are derived from observation and not from theory, therefore I do not expect to see such a thing. I mean, I might be wrong, but it does seem that at some point Reinin & co, after having found the expectation of these qualities from a theoretical perspective, went out and chatted with people and observed these qualities so that he could write the descriptions. Yet I do not actually know that this is what happened. Would be real nice to hear it from someone with actual knowledge of what happened.

I have made some personal derivations from a theoretical point of view in the mathematico-mechanical socionics thread on the gamma forum.

...


Ok, I'll try to give a clarification on what I meant before as well...

The description of obstinacy from above is as follows:

Obstinate:
"4 my dear matters I do not throw. I will make due to the sleep, food... "." 4 I will not refuse, it understands... by 4 it is inclined to press home situation to the end ". "i have such interests, from which 4 I cannot refuse under the fear of destruction, crash of my personality". "interests on the limit of physical possibilities. When these quite physical possibilities show limit - I reject (i.e., only at the worst)... I put aside to the moment, when it will be sufficient resource ". "I cannot miss my interests, although resources already and do not be sufficient...".

From this and your understanding of the quality of sensory attribute, try to understand, why the above in connection with sensory leads always to the attribute of positivism whereas in connection with intuitive it leads to negativism.

Not very clear, actually quite nonsensical.

Yet so it is.
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anndelise



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Smilingeyes wrote:
From this and your understanding of the quality of sensory attribute, try to understand, why the above in connection with sensory leads always to the attribute of positivism whereas in connection with intuitive it leads to negativism.


That's something I'll have to try sometime...taking say...two of the dichotomies and linking them up to see the ways in which they'd connect/affect each other.

For now, I'll wait to see what the one book that refers to Kepinski's info has to offer.

[Smilingeyes]

Essentially, the material of the
1. mathematico-mechanical socionics thread
2. easy-to-use-behaviour tracker thread
3. "the third gamma forum dichotomies thread" are pretty much here.

The Te type descriptions is partly here. The rest is probably possible to save with the correct searches.

My socionics 101 is saved by a friend and will resurface.

My problem at the moment is the rest of the dichotomic type descriptions thread. Pages 5 and 6 are available in this thread. If anyone has saved other pieces of that thread, please just post them here. I will be cleaning up this thread as I have the time.

Thanks for your help, you know who you are.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Dichotomic descriptions of types page 1

Starting another marathon project on the types, functions & states.

This is a thread for working, contributions welcome.

Is there something in particular that you would like me to add/correct to the descriptions?

The material is not meant to be read at once. It seeks to be reference material, a sort of encyclopedia of important information on the types.

Accepting Si (acc-si) = ISTp/ISFp

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Sensory function:
It involves concrete details, concrete actions as opposed to abstractions. It can solve a certain number of problems effectively but it requires the support of intuition to point out where to direct its efforts. Sensory function can solve a problem but it's not useful in identifying the problem as a problem. By its actions a sensory function changes a 'thinking' situation into 'feeling'. This means that the obvious known and concrete characteristics of a situation have been redefined by concrete sensory action and that the new situation requires acceptance, relaxation and understanding. Using sensory functions also increases the possibilities of interaction in a situation as the acting person's actions are easy to identify. This creates new communal interests.

Introvert function:
It is a systematic function, interested in cause and effect, understanding the rules of the things to which it is used. It is interested more in the questions of how and why rather than who and what. It is information about fields, graphs, maps rather than particular objects. By the actions of this function a questioning, erratic, case by case 'taciturn' action turns into an ordered, uninterrupted flow of 'narrative' information. Introvert functions require the support of extravert ones to yield them raw material for the perfection of their inner models, a base to which the model can be grounded and which it can serve.

Acc-si: In relation to sensory information this system of knowledge is often called technical skill or body control but in fact it handles all information that can be thought of as immediate and concrete by the person using the function.

Accepting function:
This what one does without thinking. This is the function through which one focuses actions towards a single goal. This is not the same as being a focussed function by itself. This function turns the various interests of the 'result' group into the 'process' group and the 'process' group is the one that is focussed. The importance of this function is rather that it accepts a multitude of base resources, ideas and tasks. It is mobile and can be used in many situations which contrasts the creative functions that can only be used for very particular tasks. This does NOT mean that one is automatically weaker than the other as succesfull use of creative functions tends to create groundbreaking breakthroughs which are very important despite their relative rarity. The accepting functions are balanced rather than supported by the creating functions.

Limiting function:
It is a function that reduces your field of interest, it pushes you away from frivolous, dangerous, off-limits interests towards the things that you need to focus in. It changes the 'positivism' cathegory into 'negativism'. It is not a subdued function despite this. Rather, it signifies seeking your limits and finally finding them, testing what you wish is true. When it finds its own limits it helps others cross theirs and thus supports the 'empowering' functions.

Acc-Si: Sheer personal effort when applied everywhere according to a particular system does not work in everything. One person's skill is never enough. The more effort you put in your work the more you notice the things that are beyond your control.

Strategic function:
It focuses on the bottom line, the thing you want. By it's action it separates the worthy from the unworthy, talented from untalented, the succesful from the unsuccesful. Without a goal, it's useless. It's point is to establish direction. By it's action it turns the 'construct-creating' into the 'emotion-creating'. By this action it turns the focus from the old, the known, into the new, the surprising and starts a new cycle. This is the function that casts off the creations that anchor you and sends you to the unknown. 'Strategic' functions require the support of 'Tactical' functions. A goal will not be reached unless someone does the actual work to get there.

Acc-Si: The goal, the quality appraised, the value sought for is typically something of worth to a personal system of concrete living. This is typically called comfort, but it can apply to many other things.

Carefree function:
It is inclined to immediate decisions through immediately available information. Personal risk is seen as small in relation to the profit gained by action. It feels a lack of useful resources and thus that it has little to lose. By its action it changes the 'obstinate' dichotomy into the 'compliant' dichotomy. This function regards the existing motivations and purposes either as already perfected, boring or irrelevant and turns a person's focus towards the resources needed to keep up the system. It is inclined to feel it has seen everything and wants more. A carefree function is balanced by 'calculating' functions.

Acc-si also changes the person's style of communication from 'cold' to 'sincere'.

Judicious function:
It is intensely personal, even narcisstic. It's interest lies only in its own chosen environment which it guards from disturbances. By its action it turns the 'objective and grave' into the 'subjective and merry'. It establishes a special environment that is free from a number of usual limitations and is able to support specialized abilities, technologies and ideas that would not work in general use. It changes the quadra spirit of the environment and changes the focus from bonds of mutual loyalty to general playfulness.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: This kind of sensing is rather passive, it focuses on getting as more pleasant feelings as possible, on reduction of quantity of unnecessary motions, on the quality and functionality of work. People with this function as dominant do not like to argue (if they began – it means that something VERY serious happened). They are often efficient at work that requires attention to small details, monotonous chores etc. They like intellectuals, like new ideas, because these ideas make their life more diverse, but also ridicule intellectuals for their “impractical approach”.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: Peace is achieved through the senses. Anything that goes against the natural flow of events is sharply received. He rejects any activity that goes against social norms, does not abide primal instincts. He is squeamish. He is thoughtful and shows respect to relatives and loved ones. If he sees a weak man it is in his nature to come to his aid. He is sensitive and will never take joy in the pain of others. The possibilities of sensations are well understood. He is often and enthusiast of the out doors and enjoys earthy activities, camping, fishing and primitive listing being some of the many things he enjoys. He does not force his moods on to others, if he is bored it is not spoken, if he is restless he will not say. He is easily wounded but will not say when his spirit has been broken. In order to survive he knows how to abide by rules and follow social stereotypes.

Concrete form:
Gulenko: Sensorika of the sensations Men of customary pleasures and simple everyday happiness. Greatly it is considered habits and conveniences in those surrounding. Does not disrupt strange rest. It always worries about the health and a good health its and its close ones. It surrounds itself by pleasant trifles. It dresses simply and with the taste. It rejects extremes in the exterior view. He tries to be held in the shadow, it is not separated neither to the side of the good nor to the side the laggards. It will get along with all, since it knows how to engage the position of the golden mean. The peace of things is studied. It loves to take object in the hands, to touch it, to perceive its physical qualities. It for a long time memorizes sensations. It easily manipulates by objects, seeking out that which to it is usual.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Si is strategic and carefree, it cares only about what it wants and it goes after it immediately. Cre-Si is tactical and calculating, it sees itself as doing an important job requiring care and attention and does not want disturbances. Acc-Si will happily trample over the systems of Cre-Si unless Cre-Si establishes control over it, which it will quite possibly do.

Dual: Acc-Si supports Acc-Ne by establishing mutual goals and turning Acc-Ne abstract ideas into concrete reality.

Activity: Cre-Ne and Acc-Si share the strategic drive for goals, but one has abstract and one has concrete goals. They can share the idea of this intensely personal quest and even offer some help to each other. The goals that Acc-Si pursues are concrete but not necessarily well defined. The goals Cre-Ne pursues are abstract but in a sense, more strict and binding. Abstract version of this activity partnership is generally more satisfying than the concrete one.

Super-ego:
Acc-Si and Acc-Ni share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Si and Cre-Ni share the air of the self-confident goal-driven person, but beyond this they have little in common. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Si person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary
Acc-Si and Acc-Se are united in their drive for reaching a concrete goal but where the Acc-Si will directly go for what he wants, the Acc-Se is carefully analyzing the goals of various people to find the optimal personal goal. Acc-Se finds Acc-Si inconveniently forceful and causing Acc-Se additional difficulties. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical
Acc-Si and Cre-Se, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their 'carefree' concrete action but where Acc-Si is out to reach a goal himself, Cre-Se is attempting to do his best and be rewarded. Both believe the other is taking the easy way.

Other issues:
Acc-Si is characterized by the 'caretaking' style of sexuality.

Accepting Ne (acc-ne) = ENFp/ENTp

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Intuitive function:
It involves abstraction, generalities, guesswork, approximation, sketching rather than concrete details. It looks for general, rather than specific usability, universally useful tools rather than tools for specific effect. It creates ideas and finds paths but is unwilling to do the legwork to walk the walk. By its actions an intuitive function changes a 'feeling' situation into a 'thinking' one. This means that the idea of what details of a situation matter and should be concentrated on, is born. Using intuitive functions generates enables one to find the relevant among the details, it creates focus and lessens the need to interact with the environment. Intuitive functions are supported by sensory ones and vice versa since the intuitive function guides the sensory function in its actions and the sensory function allows the actualization of the intuitive ideas.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Acc-Ne: In relation to intuition, this interest in objects is the interest and fascination with the strange, the unexpected, the unclear. This fascination with hidden things can mean a wish to find things of value that are your very own and nobody else's or it may become a showy personal ability to see things in ways that others don't.

Accepting function:
This what one does without thinking. This is the function through which one focuses actions towards a single goal. This is not the same as being a focussed function by itself. This function turns the various interests of the 'result' group into the 'process' group and the 'process' group is the one that is focussed. The importance of this function is rather that it accepts a multitude of base resources, ideas and tasks. It is mobile and can be used in many situations which contrasts the creative functions that can only be used for very particular tasks. This does NOT mean that one is automatically weaker than the other as succesfull use of creative functions tends to create groundbreaking breakthroughs which are very important despite their relative rarity. The accepting functions are balanced rather than supported by the creating functions.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Tactical function:
It focuses on what it's doing. Methods are chosen according to personal interest, skill and relevance to task. The outcome is whatever is possible under circumstances and should be accepted as such. Can possess an unattached, mercenary or professional worker attitude. Importance given on talent and skill. By its action it turns the 'emotion-creating' into the 'construct-creating'. By this action it finds a personal sense of accomplishment, reaches a sense of finding it's place in the world which starts the conservative instinct.

Carefree function:
It is inclined to immediate decisions through immediately available information. Personal risk is seen as small in relation to the profit gained by action. It feels a lack of useful resources and thus that it has little to lose. By its action it changes the 'obstinate' dichotomy into the 'compliant' dichotomy. This function regards the existing motivations and purposes either as already perfected, boring or irrelevant and turns a person's focus towards the resources needed to keep up the system. It is inclined to feel it has seen everything and wants more. A carefree function is balanced by 'calculating' functions.

Acc-ne also changes the person's style of communication from 'passionate' to 'business-like'.

Judicious function:
It is intensely personal, even narcisstic. It's interest lies only in its own chosen environment which it guards from disturbances. By its action it turns the 'objective and grave' into the 'subjective and merry'. It establishes a special environment that is free from a number of usual limitations and is able to support specialized abilities, technologies and ideas that would not work in general use. It changes the quadra spirit of the environment and changes the focus from bonds of mutual loyalty to general playfulness.

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Hot function:
It relates to a system of thought in which there are important goals that are common to all people.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: Bearers of this function are usually curious, full of ideas; they gladly look for new ideas in books, or make new interesting acquaintances. Usually they are not aggressive, and even being talented, often have troubles with getting a “reward”, recognition of their ingenuity. They usually see a lot of positive possibilities in other people. However, when their ideas are offended, they can be very persistent. A negative trait: when they promise, it usually does not mean “I will certainly do”, often it means “I wish it would happen when somebody helps”.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: the intuition of the possibilities It possesses excellent intuition to the people. On the separate phrases, the intonation, the mimicry, the special features of behavior it sees the internal motivation of man. Easily it surmises, what that attains. Rapidly it is trained, since it knows how to grip the essence of problem. In it the fantasy is well developed: it devises histories, are constructed means, entertaining subjects. It is pulled to the talented and uncommon personalities. It knows how to encourage and to inspire people, making with them compliments, describing iridescent prospects. It proposes the different versions of the solution of one and the same problem. To it be occupied to intolerably by monotonous work. Its generating boredom repetition strongly suppresses.


Concrete form:
Gulenko: the intuition of the possibilities The prospect of new ideas and projects sees well. It is interested by all in the hope of in a row finding anything unique. Rapidly it rejects those ideas, which proved to be hopeless, and it is thrown to something new. It has diverse interests. Frequently its enthusiasm are in no way connected with the basic work. It is attempted to gather all discoveries and innovations on it the problem interesting. It generates daring, alternative ideas on any question, with which for it it only is necessary to contend, it does not transfer rutins also of the fetters of traditions. If the matter, by which it is forced to be occupied, it does not carry along, will give to it completely new revolution. It can propose the large number of applications to invention or to discovery. It is persistent and expansive in the propagation of its own developments. In order to catch fire by idea, it must make its "its".


Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Ne is tactical and carefree, it cares only about what it wants to be doing and starts doing it immediately. Cre-Ne is strategic and calculating, feels that Acc-Ne is hasty and flighty and is misusing its great talents. It feels that Acc-Ne will confuse issues unless Cre-Ne establishes control over it which it will quite possibly do. Acc-Ne will appreciate it's mirrors accomplishments, experience and opinions but feels its slowness dragging it down.

Dual: Acc-Ne supports Acc-Si by providing worthy ideas and pointing out objects of interest that are worthy of being sought for.

Activity: Acc-Ne and Cre-Si share the appreciation of personal tactical skills but one has concrete skills while the other has abstract talent. One utilizes great care in its efforts while the other will quickly proceed with whatever is at hand. These two are the greatest gurus and primadonnas of the work place and as such they can earn the respect of each other in ways no other type does. Concrete version of this activity partnership is generally more satisfying than the concrete one.

Superego:
Acc-Ne and Acc-Se share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Ne and Cre-Se share the air of confident action-orientedness but beyond this they have little in common. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Ne person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Acc-Ne and Acc-Ni are united in their drive to master the art of abstract thinking but where Acc-Ne will directly quickly suppose that his actions are correct though he might later return to redo his activities and again suppose the same thing, Acc-Ni will collect information doubting itself until it has the whole picture and constantly doubt itself. Acc-Ne will not appreciate Acc-Ni doubting it and feels this as insulting. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical
Acc-Ne and Cre-Ni, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their 'carefree' abstract action but where Acc-Ne is out to show-off his talents Cre-Ni is out to solve an important-seeming problem. Both believe the other is getting undue credit, Cre-Ni presenting dull and uninteresting solutions and Acc-Ne producing only frivolities.

Other issues:
Acc-Ne is characterized by the 'childish' style of sexuality.

Accepting Se (acc-se) = ESTp/ESFp

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Sensory function:
It involves concrete details, concrete actions as opposed to abstractions. It can solve a certain number of problems effectively but it requires the support of intuition to point out where to direct its efforts. Sensory function can solve a problem but it's not useful in identifying the problem as a problem. By its actions a sensory function changes a 'thinking' situation into 'feeling'. This means that the obvious known and concrete characteristics of a situation have been redefined by concrete sensory action and that the new situation requires acceptance, relaxation and understanding. Using sensory functions also increases the possibilities of interaction in a situation as the acting person's actions are easy to identify. This creates new communal interests.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Accepting function:
This what one does without thinking. This is the function through which one focuses actions towards a single goal. This is not the same as being a focussed function by itself. This function turns the various interests of the 'result' group into the 'process' group and the 'process' group is the one that is focussed. The importance of this function is rather that it accepts a multitude of base resources, ideas and tasks. It is mobile and can be used in many situations which contrasts the creative functions that can only be used for very particular tasks. This does NOT mean that one is automatically weaker than the other as succesfull use of creative functions tends to create groundbreaking breakthroughs which are very important despite their relative rarity. The accepting functions are balanced rather than supported by the creating functions.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Strategic function:
It focuses on the bottom line, the thing you want. By it's action it separates the worthy from the unworthy, talented from untalented, the succesful from the unsuccesful. Without a goal, it's useless. It's point is to establish direction. By it's action it turns the 'construct-creating' into the 'emotion-creating'. By this action it turns the focus from the old, the known, into the new, the surprising and starts a new cycle. This is the function that casts off the creations that anchor you and sends you to the unknown. 'Strategic' functions require the support of 'Tactical' functions. A goal will not be reached unless someone does the actual work to get there.

Calculating function:
It is inclined to search for additional information, prepare in advance and not be swayed from its planned path by changes in the environment, for the plan must already be prepared for this contingency. By its action it changes the 'compliant' dichotomy to the 'obstinate' dichotomy. The use of this function creates a feeling of being prepared for anything, being able to take on great tasks and possessing a surplus of resources. A calculating function is balanced by 'carefree' functions.

Acc-Se also changes the person's communication from 'business-like' to passionate.

Resolute function:
It is able to adapt and to make-do with whatever the environment offers. Finds success by taking and using everything and anything that's available. Willing to sacrifice but wants a high pay-off for it. Inclined to communal action and conformism. Focus on the needs of the situation rather than personal needs. By its actions turns the 'subjective and merry' into the 'objective and grave'. By its actions it decides the rules of the rat race and creates the normal society.

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Hot function:
It relates to a system of thought in which there are important goals that are common to all people.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: This sensing function directs to occupation of space. People with this strong function are usually demanding people, which like when other people fulfill their wishes and demands. Sometimes they become managers, and sometimes – good sellers that can sell even unnecessary things. They often (but not always) have athletic, somewhat roundish figure, quick and demanding eyes. They are very persistent in the life: "If I want, then it should be achieved”, and they often gladly help other people – those who accept their leadership. Their outbursts of anger may fear some people, but in fact they are short-term – in several minutes they become calm again and restore their good mood.

Abstract:
Gulenko: program function: power sensorika Decisive person, capable of showing power pressure, if that situation requires. It is disposed to the victory by any price. The more the obstacles meets on the way, the more brave becomes and the more actively it begins. It is confident in its rightness, doubts and fluctuations are alien to it. It is categorical in the estimations. Last word leaves after itself. Vystavlyaet the ultimatum: once you me selected, then now be subordinated. It knows how to find the weakest place in enemy. If the straight attack of success does not bring, begins circuit from the side or from the rear. Frequently it acts through the third persons.

Concrete:
Gulenko: power sensorika It feels well the arrangement of forces. Rapidly it recovers, who is strong, and who is weak, on whom it is possible to press, but it is better not to touch whom. It gropes the weak places of people, with which it is close by sign. Influencing on the painful points, changes their behavior to the side advantageous for itself. Itself is not subordinated to attempts at the straight pressure. Deftly it uvorachivayetsya. It knows how for itself to postoyat'. It reacts violently, when they limit it in the selection. He commands those, who are less decisive and is less confident in itself. With the stronger partner it associates on the equal. Will always find method, as to focus on itself attention.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Se is strategic and calculating. It takes great care to have the correct goal in each situation ie. seek only what is available. Cre-Se is tactical and carefree. It seeks to melt into the situation unseen and take whatever becomes available through appropriate action. Cre-Se feels that Acc-Se is reaching for too much and going about it in a clumsy way. Acc-Se feels that Cre-Se is complacent and possibly stupid for not taking what's available in front of him. Yet Acc-Se tends to acquiesce and work around Cre-Se rather than confront it. They interact easily enough and respect each other's easily seen abilities.

Dual: Acc-Se supports Acc-Ni by taking up challenges and targets that Acc-Ni suggests are worthwhile.

Activity: Acc-Se and Cre-Ni share the appreciation of strategic direct approach and ability to see the most crucial and valuable things in the environment but one seeks to understand and nurture it while the other seeks to capture and guard it. These two are the most likely leaders of a major group, with Acc-Se being better able to capture leadership and Cre-Ni better able to use it when he manages to get it. The activity partnership is more satisfactory in its concrete than its abstract version.

Superego:
Acc-Se and Acc-Ne share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Se and Cre-Ne share the air of calculating choice of strategic goals but beyond this they have little in common. One is actually looking for something generally perfect that would in some strange way suit all its purposes while one is looking for something that is available and easy to get. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Se person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Acc-Se and Acc-Si are united in their drive to reach concrete goals by the most direct of means but where Acc-Se goals are common and carefully chosen, Acc-Si will try to reach outlandish and eccentric goals whenever they happen to suit its tastes. Acc-Se will not appreciate Acc-Si embarking on what it considers fool's errands and will often be disappointed by the results of cooperation. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical
Acc-Se and Cre-Si, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their 'calculating' concrete action but where Cre-Si is a show-off, Acc-Se is trying to get the prize. Both believe the other is not as talented as they are and is getting undue praise.

Other issues:
Acc-Se is characterized by the 'aggressive' style of sexuality.

Accepting Ni (acc-ni) = INFp/INTp

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Intuitive function:
It involves abstraction, generalities, guesswork, approximation, sketching rather than concrete details. It looks for general, rather than specific usability, universally useful tools rather than tools for specific effect. It creates ideas and finds paths but is unwilling to do the legwork to walk the walk. By its actions an intuitive function changes a 'feeling' situation into a 'thinking' one. This means that the idea of what details of a situation matter and should be concentrated on, is born. Using intuitive functions generates enables one to find the relevant among the details, it creates focus and lessens the need to interact with the environment. Intuitive functions are supported by sensory ones and vice versa since the intuitive function guides the sensory function in its actions and the sensory function allows the actualization of the intuitive ideas.

Introvert function:
It is a systematic function, interested in cause and effect, understanding the rules of the things to which it is used. It is interested more in the questions of how and why rather than who and what. It is information about fields, graphs, maps rather than particular objects. By the actions of this function a questioning, erratic, case by case 'taciturn' action turns into an ordered, uninterrupted flow of 'narrative' information. Introvert functions require the support of extravert ones to yield them raw material for the perfection of their inner models, a base to which the model can be grounded and which it can serve.

Limiting function:
It is a function that reduces your field of interest, it pushes you away from frivolous, dangerous, off-limits interests towards the things that you need to focus in. It changes the 'positivism' cathegory into 'negativism'. It is not a subdued function despite this. Rather, it signifies seeking your limits and finally finding them, testing what you wish is true. When it finds its own limits it helps others cross theirs and thus supports the 'empowering' functions.

Tactical function:
It focuses on what it's doing. Methods are chosen according to personal interest, skill and relevance to task. The outcome is whatever is possible under circumstances and should be accepted as such. Can possess an unattached, mercenary or professional worker attitude. Importance given on talent and skill. By its action it turns the 'emotion-creating' into the 'construct-creating'. By this action it finds a personal sense of accomplishment, reaches a sense of finding it's place in the world which starts the conservative instinct.

Calculating function:
It is inclined to search for additional information, prepare in advance and not be swayed from its planned path by changes in the environment, for the plan must already be prepared for this contingency. By its action it changes the 'compliant' dichotomy to the 'obstinate' dichotomy. The use of this function creates a feeling of being prepared for anything, being able to take on great tasks and possessing a surplus of resources. A calculating function is balanced by 'carefree' functions.

Acc-Ni also changes the person's communication from 'sincere' to cold.

Resolute function:
It is able to adapt and to make-do with whatever the environment offers. Finds success by taking and using everything and anything that's available. Willing to sacrifice but wants a high pay-off for it. Inclined to communal action and conformism. Focus on the needs of the situation rather than personal needs. By its actions turns the 'subjective and merry' into the 'objective and grave'. By its actions it decides the rules of the rat race and creates the normal society.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: This function, instead of lots of possibilities, considers people and the world as if flowing in a big and insuperable stream of time. What does people's potential mean when it cannot be realized? Fate rules the world. Their usual condition is something like meditation. However, in spite of such “Buddhist” vital philosophy, they are very smart in adaptation to different crises that happen in life, and stoically tolerate even somebody else's petty tyranny. They are intellectuals, but they do not often want to demonstrate their ideas, preferring that other people would pay attention to them, and for this reason often seem to be “passive”. In fact, they do not think they are “passive” – the “wait for the good moment”.


Abstract:
Gulenko: the intuition of the time In its behavior it is guided by intuitive presentiments. Because of this quality it is capable to survive in most difficult situation, since rapidly are distinguished artificiality, falsity, hypocrisy, degradation. It freely manages both its and strange time. It always acts in the manner that as if he has reserve of time. It puts aside much for tomorrow. Large dreamer and lyric nature. The pictures, which to it sketches the imagination, bright and bright, are much more attractive than everyday life. It believes in good future. It calms down people, moving in them hope by phrases about the fast changes to the best. Does not concentrate its attention in the errors of the past.

Concrete:
Gulenko: the intuition of the time Keenly observes after the flow of life. It thinly notices details and hardly the planned tendencies. It explains, what reasons led to the existing consequences. It is submerged in the past, the repetitive phenomena are studied. Because of the associatively organized memory and the love for the knowledge he is frequently scholar. Contradictions and actual errors in positions and opinions are revealed well. Possessing a philosophical turn of mind, it knows how to produce the impression of wise and man of vision. It is careful in decision making. It proceeds from the fact that it is necessary to slightly anticipate events. The safe version of actions is always selected.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Ni is tactical and calculating. It takes great pride in being able to always point out something smart and possessing a large base of knowledge on which to base its suggestions. It's opinions and positions on things are carefully crafted. It hates to be wrong about anything. Cre-Ni is carefree and strategic is inclined to believe it has natural ability to look at any given situation and find the best position to take. It will change it's opinion when and only when new information becomes available. Cre-Ni will generally have greater ease in explaining his ideas and this often causes situations in which he appears in a superior position to Acc-Ni. Cre-Ni is quick to take a position and Acc-Ni has to work around it.

Dual: Acc-Se supports Acc-Ni by taking up challenges and targets that Acc-Ni suggests are worthwhile.

Activity:
Acc-Ni and Cre-Se share the interest in skillful action that lets them constantly be in the center of things without being singled out for errors and embarrassed. They tend to appear very proper, honored members of society but more likely to gain honor than concrete rewards. One partner serves as the society's hands, quickly doing whatever seems to be expected of him and the other serves as society's conscience and common sense, staying steadfast in all kinds of chaos. The activity partnership is more satisfactory in its abstract than its concrete form.

Super-ego:
Acc-Si and Acc-Ni share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Ni and Cre-Si share the air of avoiding failure like the plague, doing whatever it takes to perfect their skills, being prepared to succeed in whatever circumstances appear but beyond this they have little in common. Cre-Si is a show-off that requires much support to work at its best. Acc-Ni will rather hide its skills unless insulted or specifically called for. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Ni person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Acc-Ne and Acc-Ni are united in their drive to master the art of abstract thinking but where Acc-Ne will directly quickly suppose that his actions are correct though he might later return to redo his activities and again suppose the same thing, Acc-Ni will collect information doubting itself until it has the whole picture and constantly doubt itself. Acc-Ne will not appreciate Acc-Ni doubting it and feels this as insulting. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical:
Acc-Ni and Cre-Ne, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their calculating abstract character but where Acc-Ni is out to just prove it's correctness once again, Cre-Ne is seeking the one perfect idea that will thereafter solve everything. Both believe the other is producing nothing of importance and getting undue credit, Acc-Ni quite willing to prove that Cre-Ne has failed in reaching its goal and Cre-Ne dismissing Acc-Ni for creating nothing of importance.

Other issues:
Acc-Ni is characterized by the 'victim' style of sexuality.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Dichotomic descriptions of types page 2

This is great stuff, thanks for posting it.
I haven't had time to look in detail, but one thing catches my eye:

Acc-Si and Cre-Ni share the air of the self-confident goal-driven person

From other posts, descriptions, etc., "the air of the self-confident goal-driven person" isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of what's usually said about SEI. But that may be a problem with the description and posts, rather than what SEIs are truly like (?). They're often described as staying the background, a little shy, easy-going peacemakers, maybe even not sticking up for themselves as much as they should.

I think your Gamma thread post also described them as wanting to tell their stories to others to feel better about things...didn't sound very self-confident and goal-oriented either.

But maybe they're also self-confident and goal-driven too, and the descriptions and common perceptions about them are wrong. I could definitely see it that way too.

Excellent of you to notice this!
The difference with the Acc-Si and Cre-Ni is great. Cre-Ni is easily seen as a goal-driven person in the standard sense. Acc-Si is not. The reason is that Acc-Si has very concrete very personal goals. This goal is often called by people 'personal comfort' but it does not have to be. Think how acts a person who is very determined to reach the goal of getting to sit in a comfy chair and drink good wine. Why should he want something more? The goal is easily within his reach so the word 'driven' does not easily come to mind from this person but that's the way the motivation is built. He is certainly not task-driven. He'll do whatever he needs to to get the comfy chair and the wine but why should he do anything more? Why should he exert himself for anything else but reaching the goal?

If the personal goal happens to be something big, yet reachable by the concrete efforts of a single person, you'll see the drivenness better, but even then the goal is personal and generally of little importance to other people. Therefore, Acc-Si people are infact driven but tremendously difficult to motivate and hence from the outside, it's often just easier to think that they're a bunch of lazy slobs.

Edit: Self-confidence is quite apparent in the other types but you're correct about SiFe. It's the Creative Fe talking. Can't help that. Maybe I should change that part of the description somehow. I'll think about this...

Edit2: Changed the part about self-confidence to point towards their confidence in the appraisal of goals, which is more correct.

Creating Se (cre-se) = ISTj/ISFj

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Sensory function:
It involves concrete details, concrete actions as opposed to abstractions. It can solve a certain number of problems effectively but it requires the support of intuition to point out where to direct its efforts. Sensory function can solve a problem but it's not useful in identifying the problem as a problem. By its actions a sensory function changes a 'thinking' situation into 'feeling'. This means that the obvious known and concrete characteristics of a situation have been redefined by concrete sensory action and that the new situation requires acceptance, relaxation and understanding. Using sensory functions also increases the possibilities of interaction in a situation as the acting person's actions are easy to identify. This creates new communal interests.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Creating function:
This is what you concentrate on and are impressed by. This is a mile-stone, a worthy goal, a personal horizon and limit. Through success in the use of this function a great set of new personal possibilities arise. This function turns the focused action of the 'process' group into the multi-tasking hassle that is the 'result' group. The importance of this function is that it often reflects a person's greatest accomplishments, the result of all his efforts. It is generally concentrated for long periods on very particular tasks. The creating functions are balanced rather than supported by the accepting ones.

Limiting function:
It is a function that reduces your field of interest, it pushes you away from frivolous, dangerous, off-limits interests towards the things that you need to focus in. It changes the 'positivism' cathegory into 'negativism'. It is not a subdued function despite this. Rather, it signifies seeking your limits and finally finding them, testing what you wish is true. When it finds its own limits it helps others cross theirs and thus supports the 'empowering' functions.

Tactical function:
It focuses on what it's doing. Methods are chosen according to personal interest, skill and relevance to task. The outcome is whatever is possible under circumstances and should be accepted as such. Can possess an unattached, mercenary or professional worker attitude. Importance given on talent and skill. By its action it turns the 'emotion-creating' into the 'construct-creating'. By this action it finds a personal sense of accomplishment, reaches a sense of finding it's place in the world which starts the conservative instinct.

Calculating function:
It is inclined to search for additional information, prepare in advance and not be swayed from its planned path by changes in the environment, for the plan must already be prepared for this contingency. By its action it changes the 'compliant' dichotomy to the 'obstinate' dichotomy. The use of this function creates a feeling of being prepared for anything, being able to take on great tasks and possessing a surplus of resources. A calculating function is balanced by 'carefree' functions.

Cre-Se also changes the person's communication from 'cold' to 'sincere'.

Resolute function:
It is able to adapt and to make-do with whatever the environment offers. Finds success by taking and using everything and anything that's available. Willing to sacrifice but wants a high pay-off for it. Inclined to communal action and conformism. Focus on the needs of the situation rather than personal needs. By its actions turns the 'subjective and merry' into the 'objective and grave'. By its actions it decides the rules of the rat race and creates the normal society.

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Rational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which rules are created as a tool and followed until it's proven they need to be discarded.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Craftsman and Mediator with the dominant introverted sensing) for their very accurate manner of clothing, for the order that reigns in their apartments, at their workplaces, for their thrifty manner of life. However, they are internally mobilized, as if waiting for a war or an emergency situation, they tend to split the mankind into “our people” and the rest, they are much conservative in their views. And communicating with them at close distance, you will quickly understand that they do not tolerate objections, even though they look so calm and moderate. Stalin, Brezhnev, Richard Nixon, Boris Gryzlov (head of the Russian Parliament), Donald Rumsfeld are good examples of this type of politicians. Women of this type are usually beautiful and calm, but very much demanding, examples are Michelle Pfeiffer, Glenn Close, Celine Dion, Jacqueline Kennedy etc.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: power sensorika Sober realist: only as a feasible goals are set for itself, therefore in the majority of the cases it attains them, even not immediately. If explanations and warnings do not help, are included the pressure and other power methods of control. It knows how to press home enemy, forcing him into the angle. The stoic, who knows how to hold himself in the hands. It transfers any adversities. It forces itself to make that which is uninteresting, but it is necessary. It helps those, who is weak, defenseless. It is a guardian old and patients. He is imperceptible champion- lone person for the validity.

Concrete form:
Gulenko: power sensorika Skillfully is designed the force of action for man. It is not adapted to the partner, but it ties to it its line of behavior. It holds itself in the hands, until critical point begins. It is capable to defend for itself and its close ones. It does not transfer coercion, unreasonable application of force. Its rebuff is always matching the degree of the manifestation of aggression. It knows how to punish offender, consecutively increasing force of pressure on it. It will not be quieted until confusion and drop in the combat spirit of rival feels. Moral victory for it is more important than the physical. Never will make it possible to be turned with itself unceremonious, to tie its opinion. It cannot be intimidated or provoked.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Se is strategic and calculating. It takes great care to have the correct goal in each situation ie. seek only what is available. Cre-Se is tactical and carefree. It seeks to melt into the situation unseen and take whatever becomes available through appropriate action. Cre-Se feels that Acc-Se is reaching for too much and going about it in a clumsy way. Acc-Se feels that Cre-Se is complacent and possibly stupid for not taking what's available in front of him. Yet Acc-Se tends to acquiesce and work around Cre-Se rather than confront it. They interact easily enough and respect each other's easily seen abilities.

Dual: Cre-Se supports Cre-Ni by prospering and cooperating in the reaching for the difficult but highly profitable objectives that Cre-Ni finds.

Activity:
Acc-Ni and Cre-Se share the interest in skillful action that lets them constantly be in the center of things without being singled out for errors and embarrassed. They tend to appear very proper, honored members of society but more likely to gain honor than concrete rewards. One partner serves as the society's hands, quickly doing whatever seems to be expected of him and the other serves as society's conscience and common sense, staying steadfast in all kinds of chaos. The activity partnership is more satisfactory in its abstract than its concrete form.

Super-ego:
Cre-Se and Cre-Ne share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Ne and Cre-Se share the air of confident action-orientedness but beyond this they have little in common. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Ne person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Cre-Si and Cre-Se are united in their drive to master concrete tasks in their environment but where Cre-Se will just assume the way he does things is correct unless someone complains, Cre-Si will try to do his work in such a way that nobody in their right mind will complain. Cre-Si is much more of a specialist, Cre-Se is mostly just an excellent worker. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical
Acc-Si and Cre-Se, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their 'carefree' concrete action but where Acc-Si is out to reach a goal himself, Cre-Se is attempting to do his best and be rewarded. Both believe the other is taking the easy way.

Other issues:
Cre-Se is characterized by the 'aggressive' style of sexuality.

Creating Ni (cre-ni) = ENFj/ENTj

Perceiving function:
It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are.
It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

Intuitive function:
It involves abstraction, generalities, guesswork, approximation, sketching rather than concrete details. It looks for general, rather than specific usability, universally useful tools rather than tools for specific effect. It creates ideas and finds paths but is unwilling to do the legwork to walk the walk. By its actions an intuitive function changes a 'feeling' situation into a 'thinking' one. This means that the idea of what details of a situation matter and should be concentrated on, is born. Using intuitive functions generates enables one to find the relevant among the details, it creates focus and lessens the need to interact with the environment. Intuitive functions are supported by sensory ones and vice versa since the intuitive function guides the sensory function in its actions and the sensory function allows the actualization of the intuitive ideas.

Introvert function:
It is a systematic function, interested in cause and effect, understanding the rules of the things to which it is used. It is interested more in the questions of how and why rather than who and what. It is information about fields, graphs, maps rather than particular objects. By the actions of this function a questioning, erratic, case by case 'taciturn' action turns into an ordered, uninterrupted flow of 'narrative' information. Introvert functions require the support of extravert ones to yield them raw material for the perfection of their inner models, a base to which the model can be grounded and which it can serve.

Creating function:
This is what you concentrate on and are impressed by. This is a mile-stone, a worthy goal, a personal horizon and limit. Through success in the use of this function a great set of new personal possibilities arise. This function turns the focused action of the 'process' group into the multi-tasking hassle that is the 'result' group. The importance of this function is that it often reflects a person's greatest accomplishments, the result of all his efforts. It is generally concentrated for long periods on very particular tasks. The creating functions are balanced rather than supported by the accepting ones.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Strategic function:
It focuses on the bottom line, the thing you want. By it's action it separates the worthy from the unworthy, talented from untalented, the succesful from the unsuccesful. Without a goal, it's useless. It's point is to establish direction. By it's action it turns the 'construct-creating' into the 'emotion-creating'. By this action it turns the focus from the old, the known, into the new, the surprising and starts a new cycle. This is the function that casts off the creations that anchor you and sends you to the unknown. 'Strategic' functions require the support of 'Tactical' functions. A goal will not be reached unless someone does the actual work to get there.

Carefree function:
It is inclined to immediate decisions through immediately available information. Personal risk is seen as small in relation to the profit gained by action. It feels a lack of useful resources and thus that it has little to lose. By its action it changes the 'obstinate' dichotomy into the 'compliant' dichotomy. This function regards the existing motivations and purposes either as already perfected, boring or irrelevant and turns a person's focus towards the resources needed to keep up the system. It is inclined to feel it has seen everything and wants more. A carefree function is balanced by 'calculating' functions.

Cre-Ni also changes the person's style of communication from 'passionate' to 'business-like'.


Resolute function:
It is able to adapt and to make-do with whatever the environment offers. Finds success by taking and using everything and anything that's available. Willing to sacrifice but wants a high pay-off for it. Inclined to communal action and conformism. Focus on the needs of the situation rather than personal needs. By its actions turns the 'subjective and merry' into the 'objective and grave'. By its actions it decides the rules of the rat race and creates the normal society.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Rational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which rules are created as a tool and followed until it's proven they need to be discarded.

Hot function:
It relates to a system of thought in which there are important goals that are common to all people.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Seeker and Psychologist with the dominant extraverted intuition) for their intellectualism and ingenuity, for the abstract manner of explaining their views, for speaking a lot about “possibilities” and future perspectives, for having a lot of ideas concerning how thing should go on correctly. To understand the difference, let us consider a row of people representing the types Enterpriser and Mentor, i.e. with introverted intuition as the secondary function. This function entails certain kind of “prophet-like” or “preacher-like” behavior. Such people believe in magnificent perspectives, and they try to transfer their belief to other people, even when the situation is really bad and gloomy. ******, Reagan, Martin Luther King, Ceausescu, Trotsky, Goebbels, John F. Kennedy, Boris Yeltsin, Tony Blair, Che Guevara – some of these politicians had bad reputation, some are adored and admired, but they all had something important, a common trait that united them all – their “prophet-like” behavior, their capability to “infect” people with belief in the future, even when several minutes ago people were much dissatisfied of them.



Abstract form:
Gulenko:He has a good understanding the the development of situation in time. Sensing danger ---gotovigsya to it previously - thinks over the fallback positions. He warns people about the danger threatening to them. Men constantly koleblyushchiysya and being doubted. To it it is to not easy accept decision of major importance. However, after decision is made, no longer it will think over and will not turn back. Its world view in the course of time can be changed for diametrically contrary. It is internally very contradictory. Recovers falsity and nonconformity between the words and the real behavior of people. It is usually interested in the themes, connected with the fate and other mysterious phenomena. It loves to seclude and to reflect about the sense of life, the past and the future. All problems are examined from a global, philosophical point of view. ---

Concrete form:
Gulenko: the intuition of the time It intuitively recovers the basic tendencies of time. It does not fear to go to the risk, relying on its intuition. It always works on the lead, since he knows that it will be tomorrow late. One of the first beret to the armament new technologies and organizational forms. In the thoughts constantly it is turned to the past, analyzing the past events and extracting of them lessons to the future. Analyzing time, it attempts to find basic laws governing the fate. Uncommon, mysterious phenomena interest it. Attempts to verify them, to find by it logical substantiation.

Relation to other functions:

Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Acc-Ni is tactical and calculating. It takes great pride in being able to always point out something smart and possessing a large base of knowledge on which to base its suggestions. It's opinions and positions on things are carefully crafted. It hates to be wrong about anything. Cre-Ni is carefree and strategic is inclined to believe it has natural ability to look at any given situation and find the best position to take. It will change it's opinion when and only when new information becomes available. Cre-Ni will generally have greater ease in explaining his ideas and this often causes situations in which he appears in a superior position to Acc-Ni. Cre-Ni is quick to take a position and Acc-Ni has to work around it.

Dual: Cre-Se supports Cre-Ni by prospering and cooperating in the reaching for the difficult but highly profitable objectives that Cre-Ni finds.

Activity: Acc-Se and Cre-Ni share the appreciation of strategic direct approach and ability to see the most crucial and valuable things in the environment but one seeks to understand and nurture it while the other seeks to capture and guard it. These two are the most likely leaders of a major group, with Acc-Se being better able to capture leadership and Cre-Ni better able to use it when he manages to get it. The activity partnership is more satisfactory in its concrete than its abstract version.

Superego:
Cre-Si and Cre-Ni share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Si and Cre-Ni share the air of the goal-driven person, with supreme ability to appraise the value of something but beyond this they have little in common. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Si person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Cre-Ne and Cre-Ni are united in their drive to reach an abstract ideal goal but where Cre-Ne will carefully identify the personally suitable goal, perfect goal and thereafter believe in it, Cre-Ni will pick a goal only for the time that is seems to work and change goals according to the situation, seeking united purpose with the environment. Cre-Ni will not appreciate the strict requirements of vision that Cre-Ne pushes on it and feels his company as constricting. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical
Acc-Ne and Cre-Ni, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their 'carefree' abstract action but where Acc-Ne is out to show-off his talents Cre-Ni is out to solve an important-seeming problem. Both believe the other is getting undue credit, Cre-Ni presenting dull and uninteresting solutions and Acc-Ne producing only frivolities.

Other issues:
Cre-Ni is characterized by the 'victim' style of sexuality

Creating Fi (cre-fi) ESFp/ENFp

Judging function:
It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structurizes human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.

Feeling function:
It involves feelings, ethics, hopes and everything that is human but can not be explained by logic or even fully described in words. It looks for generally applicable ways to make contact and interact with people. It is a personal vision gained from social interaction with people. By its actions it changes a 'sensory' situation into an 'intuitive' one. It softens a person's viewpoint and turns him towards generalities from the concrete specifics of a situation. Feeling functions support thinking ones by being able to accept their creations and emphatise with them and thinking functions support feeling ones by giving them structure and protecting them. Using a feeling function enables one to make a personal connection with something, create new value, create something out of nothing.

Introvert function:
It is a systematic function, interested in cause and effect, understanding the rules of the things to which it is used. It is interested more in the questions of how and why rather than who and what. It is information about fields, graphs, maps rather than particular objects. By the actions of this function a questioning, erratic, case by case 'taciturn' action turns into an ordered, uninterrupted flow of 'narrative' information. Introvert functions require the support of extravert ones to yield them raw material for the perfection of their inner models, a base to which the model can be grounded and which it can serve.

Creating function:
This is what you concentrate on and are impressed by. This is a mile-stone, a worthy goal, a personal horizon and limit. Through success in the use of this function a great set of new personal possibilities arise. This function turns the focused action of the 'process' group into the multi-tasking hassle that is the 'result' group. The importance of this function is that it often reflects a person's greatest accomplishments, the result of all his efforts. It is generally concentrated for long periods on very particular tasks. The creating functions are balanced rather than supported by the accepting ones.

Limiting function:
It is a function that reduces your field of interest, it pushes you away from frivolous, dangerous, off-limits interests towards the things that you need to focus in. It changes the 'positivism' cathegory into 'negativism'. It is not a subdued function despite this. Rather, it signifies seeking your limits and finally finding them, testing what you wish is true. When it finds its own limits it helps others cross theirs and thus supports the 'empowering' functions.

Emotion-creating function:
It focuses on finding new things, the need to learn, creating an accepting environment, working without preconceptions, checking things out by itself, giving its attention freely, openness. By it's action it changes the 'strategic' into the 'tactical'. It's as if it was looking for a path somewhere. The 'emotion-creating' functions are supported by the 'creation-creating' functions in that they offers ready-made solutions and models that the 'emotion-creating' can try out and in response it is willing to pay them what they ask for the service. Can become disarmed when taken seriously and asked for advice on issues it has yet to analyze.

Obstinate function:
It prefers to work with systems that are undiscussable, that are of subjective value rather than objective, purposes, morals, wishes and ideologies rather than tools. It will not care about opposition once it's selected something. By its actions it changes the 'calculating' into the 'carefree'. It gives of itself and uses all of its resources in behalf of what it believes in and when its all out and empty it looks for ways to do more. It is balanced rather than supported by its opposite, the 'compliant' functions.

Cre-Fi also involves a 'passionate' style of communication.

Objective/Grave function:
It embodies the general way of society to do and see things. It's interests lie in upholding the society and being acceptable. It is formal and proper. By its action it changes the 'resolute' into the 'judicious', it finds the simple, easy, efficient path that gives you a surplus to spend. It is peaceful and subdued. Not good at noticing special requirements of people as society and the general correct way to act is supposed to provide and work for everyone.

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Hot function:
It relates to a system of thought in which there are important goals that are common to all people.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Mentor and Bonvivant with the dominant extraverted ethic), because they are active, ever-smiling, often among people. However, their emotionality is quite different than that of rational extraverted ethic types. Both Psychologist and Politician do not like excessive emotions and try to negotiate rather than to awake excitement.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: the ethics of the relations Excellently it examines the system of the relations, which are added between the people. Knows how to say to man the fact that they want to hear from it. However, it does not hurry to carry out its promises, if he does not feel in this of special need. It balances between the interests of opposite camps, successfully conducting negotiations or dealing. If that its own interests require, easily it reconciles itself with the former enemies. He knows, as to fix relations. It is faster, it plays on the negative relations, the antipathies how positive connections very to break the been bored with relations difficultly. He tries to give to man to indirectly understand that it to it is not interesting. It does not love to allow to approach people to itself closely, since he feels, that this assigns on it the specific obligations. It easily starts acquaintances and more confident itself it feels in the large company, than in private and in the everyday situation.

Concrete form:
Gulenko: the ethics of the relations As no one by another examines the logic of human relations, especially to it are intelligible the reasons for complications and discords in the love and the friendship. To it to more easily preserve the fixed relations, than to restore torn. Sensitively it reacts on the antipathy. charming is sociable. It will know how to erect relation system with any man, provided it was to it interesting. He understands, with whom on what distance it is necessary to associate, although it is not always maintained. He knows that it is necessary to make in order to support the favorable psychological atmosphere in the association. It advises, as to associate with the man in order to become it necessary.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Cre-Fi is 'emotion-creating' and 'obstinate', it tries out ways of social interaction until it finally finds something that, for whatever reason, clicks and then it sticks with it. Acc-Fi is 'creation-creating' and 'compliant', it economically and carefully tends to what it is accustomed to. Cre-Fi will aggressively push itself on the territory of Acc-Fi and usually disappear as quickly and there's not that much that Acc-Fi can do about it. Acc-Fi tends to accept the interaction and hold on to another reality within himself.

Dual: Cre-Fi supports Cre-Te by learning and sharing its ideology and working as its public face. Cre-Te supports Cre-Fi by creating a forceful, impressive environment and protecting it.

Activity: Cre-Fi and Acc-Te share the willingness to test out anything that seems generally reasonable and be generally helpful. These are the generally most available people, most willing to cooperate and make things easier in their environment. Cre-Fi does this out of a vague but pressing sense that it should be done, Acc-Te sees it as an investment. Abstract version of this activity partnership is generally more satisfying than the concrete one.

Super-ego:
Cre-Fi and Cre-Ti share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Cre-Fi and Acc-Ti share the air of a true believer looking for a system to believe in but beyond this they have little in common. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Ti person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Cre-Fi and Cre-Fe are united in their ability to make friends quickly with any and all people but where Cre-Fi is looking for something to believe in, Cre-Fe is looking for something powerful and useful. Cre-Fi feels betrayed when he finds out the lack of values in Cre-Fe and feels their friendship as empty. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical:
Cre-Fi and Acc-Fe, relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. They are united in their passionate ideals but where Cre-Fi pushes these ideals because he feels they're tested and true, Acc-Fe pushes his ideals because he can't help doing it, he's accustomed to them and they're all he's got. Both believe the other is tricking people.

Other issues: cre-fi changes the style of person's sexuality from 'aggressive' to 'childish'

One other thing...do you take requests?

Umm, yeah. If they're reasonable, I guess I do.

Since you're elaborating out each type in detail, along with information about relations, this is an excellent opportunity to specify the individualized super-ego and conflict dynamics of each of the various pairs, beyond the "standardized" explanation.

I've been doing some individualization with conflict relations but not much. Superego relations don't lend themselves easily for such work, they're basically just opposite in every way the person can perceive, they're pretty much the same for everyone. Your superego partner is basically someone you understand perfectly but who fucks everything up it's pretty much the same way for everyone and the relation is so symmetric there's not much to say about it. It's basically the same reason I don't even bother to write an identity partner relation.

Another thing is that the practical use of understanding the conflict and super-ego relations is generally low. The right thing to do when one is in a situation with either of these is simply to get the fuck out and fast (or at least to stay as far as possible).

But yeah, ok, I hear you. When I get the basic version set up I'll see how much juice is left in my batteries and see what I can do.

More than anything, I'd love to see what you might come up with for these:

accepting Ni
accepting and creative Ti
accepting and creative Ne

I could do some extra work with a couple of functions, yeah. I just don't get what you mean with the above. I already wrote the acceptin Ni and both Ne descriptions. Or is this about relations? Would you like to see individualization in the conflict functions of these or what's this about?

Or is this about relations? Would you like to see individualization in the conflict functions of these or what's this about?

Exactly. Conflict, and especially super-ego if you'd be willing (although now I see that you had a specific reason not to individualize super ego). I like your general explanation just now of super-ego, although Expat's description of a super-ego relationship didn't sound quite like that.

I seem to get along with ESIs very well; a lot of people think I'm LII, and sometimes I think I am (at least some of the time). But that would mean super ego here. I wonder if the fact that I'm a bit messy sometimes and ESIs like things so neat is an expression of "super ego relations," ....or if the fact that I may appear "angry" to them when concentrating very hard because I'm so expressionless might be.....but I don't know....these things are so mild and never really seem to be that big a problem. Mostly being with ESIs feels more like duality.

I generally see SEIs as really nice people...can't see why I'd have any problems with them. They're always so sweet. But if I'm ILI, that means it's super-ego territory. I once had a roommate who was possibly SEI, and I couldn't stand the fact that he always had the T.V. on...and he couldn't stand the fact that I accidentally broke one of his dishes, and that for guests I played something modern instead of something relaxing. I was so glad when he moved out! So I wonder sometimes if that was super-ego. Anyhow, that person was a bit odd (although I'm sure I seemed very odd to him too), so the sense of conflict may have had nothing to do with type.

It's hard to imagine how anyone could put up with someone who had to have the TV on all day and would be very mad with any suggestion of turning it off. Except that the guy I sublet from (who was cleary ILE) put up with him fine. I never figured out how he was able to live with him all year (I was just there for a summer).

Hi

Cre-fi??

Creating introvert ethics, you know, the function with which ESFps love

As to the pm: I thought you might have some first hand knowledge. But even more, maybe you could streamline my own Te thinking, as it is not particularly well developed.

Bah, Te doesn't know correct things to do with people, it creates them. Your Te should tell you to go to a girl, tell her that you are interested in getting to know her, and to get to know her better you need her name and phone number Simple and practical does it. Problem's more that your Ni is telling you crap and it needs to shut the hell up. (only half joking)

By the way, I still think of you as ENTJ, whatever that means.

Thanks. At least one for ENTj. I get more of the 'I know you are ESFj, admit it!' people these days Therefore, by averages, I must be ESTj! (again, only half joking)

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Dichotomic descriptions of types page 3

Acc-Se: Hey, I want to do that and get that.
Acc-Ni: Really? Why? If you go for that other thing instead you'd get 3x the payoff and it's be easier for you.

Cre-Si tends to accept any goals that it can use its skills in. It tends to overapply those skills.
Cre-Si: Look, if I did this and this I could turn this x into something really nice.
Cre-Ne: That's fine but nobody wants you to do that. How about you do this other thing and I'd be real impressed.

Any better?

Very easy to understand, thanks Gotcha!

Again, I'm not exactly sure what you want to know here. The text you quoted fundamentally meant only that a person with abstract acc-Se is an ESTp and works with Ti and a person with concrete acc-Se is an ESFp and works with Fi. Acc-Se by itself works fine with either and doesn't really care which it's working with.

st = I do this and you'll have to accept it!
sf = I could do this if that's okay with you?
Is the ethical function a burden? In some circumstances yes, in others no.

As to the duals
nf = Oh, I sort of see what you are doing, that's very nice, have you thought about doing this as well?
nt = I think you should do this instead.

During the interaction of acc-Se and acc-Ni the sensory one progressively learns to trust more and more in the good guidance of the intuitive one and becomes more and more cooperative. The intuitive one assumes a more and more commanding role when s/he sees hir actions' effects on the behaviour of the sensory one.

Did I answer your question?

I probably misidentified "acceptance, relaxation and understanding" with feeling preference; looking back, it's clearly not necessarily the case.

Nicely noticed! But in fact it doesn't. The rules of the rat race that I'm referring to are working rules: you pay the taxes, you go to work, you don't kill people and in your shop you have a sale after christmas. Beta sets the rules of competition, what you have to do not to become a broke homeless street-walker. Gamma institutionalizes these rules. There's no ethics, no communal agreement on the rat race. People try to change these rules constantly and break them constantly. Few people think they're unsocial or unethical or worthy of punishment for breaking these rules. Yet, still they suffer for it. If you break the rules and succeed, in ten months everyone is breaking the same rule and a new rule is established. These are the rules of how things just are.

Gotcha

Creating Te (cre-te) = INTp/ISTp

Judging function:
It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structurizes human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.

Thinking function:
It involves plans, hierarchies, structure, reductionism, dogmas, sophistry, arguments, power, authority and all attempts to force human experiences and ideas into strict forms and definitions. It looks for powerful structures with which to control and modulate the environment and force others to adapt to it. It hardens a person's viewpoint and turns him towards the specific applications of his ideas from their abstract roots. By taking such a firm standpoint, an idea becomes open to criticism but tends to refuse open contact with it. Thinking functions support feeling ones by protecting them and feeling functions support thinking ones by accepting them. Using a thinking function establishes a viewpoint, takes a stand, establishes a territory.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Creating function:
This is what you concentrate on and are impressed by. This is a mile-stone, a worthy goal, a personal horizon and limit. Through success in the use of this function a great set of new personal possibilities arise. This function turns the focused action of the 'process' group into the multi-tasking hassle that is the 'result' group. The importance of this function is that it often reflects a person's greatest accomplishments, the result of all his efforts. It is generally concentrated for long periods on very particular tasks. The creating functions are balanced rather than supported by the accepting ones.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Creation-creating function:
It focuses on what it already knows, is accustomed to, loves, feels bound by, being busy with little time for new things. It only accepts input that is in a familiar form. By its actions it changes the 'tactical' into the 'strategic'. It wears out ideas till they break and till he finally he gets tired of them. It is as if it was working towards a finish line. It takes routine to its natural conclusion. It can become unsettled and disarmed when forced to face something new, powerful and surprising. The 'emotion-creating' functions are supported by the 'creation-creating' functions in that they offers ready-made solutions and models that the 'emotion-creating' can try out and in response it is willing to pay them what they ask for the service.

Obstinate function:
It prefers to work with systems that are undiscussable, that are of subjective value rather than objective, purposes, morals, wishes and ideologies rather than tools. It will not care about opposition once it's selected something. By its actions it changes the 'calculating' into the 'carefree'. It gives of itself and uses all of its resources in behalf of what it believes in and when its all out and empty it looks for ways to do more. It is balanced rather than supported by its opposite, the 'compliant' functions.

Cre-Te also involves a 'cold' style of communication.

Objective/Grave function:
It embodies the general way of society to do and see things. It's interests lie in upholding the society and being acceptable. It is formal and proper. By its action it changes the 'resolute' into the 'judicious', it finds the simple, easy, efficient path that gives you a surplus to spend. It is peaceful and subdued. Not good at noticing special requirements of people as society and the general correct way to act is supposed to provide and work for everyone.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Analyst and Inspector with the dominant introverted logic) for their calm logical emotionless manner of explaining their views, and for certain vital conservatism. However, the difference is, that they do not strive for being consistent and systematic in their thoughts – on the contrary, they strive for adaptation to ever-changing situation, and thus their sayings often look incomplete or vague. Carl Gustav Jung, although some typologists think he was an Analyst, not Critic, wrote in a very vague, ambiguous way, often left his ideas uncompleted, and even his typology was for him just a “by-product”. Often the facial expression of Critics and Craftsmen is skeptical, with a characteristic grin (Critic: Meg Ryan, Woody Allen; Craftsman: Meryl Streep, Harvey Keitel). They prefer not to present their own concepts but rather to criticize our people for imperfect, contradictory concepts. These two types may be also called “anti-enthusiasts” – they like to warn other people against insufficiently considered, unreasoned spontaneous actions, and hate very much excessive emotions.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: the business logic In the mind it checks the logic of actions and expenditure of resources, as if reducing the balance of useful and useless. The aim is to find the shortest and most advantageous way target. It is thrifty in the rotation with the money. It knows how to make reserves. Incomes constantly are checked. It searches for places and methods of advantageous financial investments. Before beginning work, thoroughly thinks over its technology, and also is gathered entire participating to the matter information at the current moment. It directs its business efforts to the creation of steady structures. Tracks state of affairs in it the region interesting and knows how with the benefit to use the accumulated information. It is oriented well in the changes on the market for goods and services. It starts card indexes, data bases, archives, collections.

Concrete form:
Gulenko: He works well with his hands. Things must prove to be absolutely unworkable before he will dismiss an idea. He has a very logical mind. The simplest most objective solutions are found for all problems. Before undertaking a matter, he thinks over several ways of reaching the desired result and stops on the most economical. He works in a way that is convenient for him without paying much attention to others. He takes note of people, that elude or loaf. He wants these people to either complete their tasks or to remove themselves. He does only what is necessary. He skillfully manages tools and technical adaptations. He strives to improve upon himself.

Relation to other functions:

Mirror:
Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Cre-Te is 'creation-creating' and 'obstinate', it's nihilistic, knows everything for certain and is not willing to discuss any of it. Acc-Te is 'emotion-creating' and 'compliant' open to all new ideas but keeps them only if they prove useful in concrete ways. Cre-Te takes care of its own caring little for Acc-Te, Acc-Te is forced to try to find a way to work with it and often succeeds in working around the Cre-Te viewpoint.

Dual: Cre-Fi supports Cre-Te by learning and sharing its ideology and working as its public face. Cre-Te supports Cre-Fi by creating a forceful, impressive environment and protecting it.

Activity: Cre-Te and Acc-Fi share the unbudging upholding of personal systems. These are the respectable conservatives, who strictly enforce the traditions of the society. Acc-Fi does this because it's easy, natural and doesn't force him to let go of anything he holds dear. Cre-Te does this because it feels its the only proven and correct way to act and it would be wrong to act any different.

Super-ego:
Cre-Te and Cre-Fe share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Cre-Te and Acc-Fe share the air of the ideological fanatic, both projecting their personal systems around them, Cre-Te because it feels the system has been proven time and again everywhere around it, Acc-Fe because it feels this is a task that just personally belongs to him. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Fe person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Cre-Te and Cre-Ti are united in their ability to make others see things their way, but where Cre-Te does this because he believes he's right, Cre-Ti does this because he's protecting his interests. Cre-Ti will feel initial respect at a formidable opponent but after his attempts in friendly cooperation against other targets is likewise thrown in his face, Cre-Ti will feel disrespected and betrayed by an unreasonable person.

Quasi-identical
Cre-Te and Acc-Ti are united in their ability to coolly not budge in the face of opposing opinions and guard what they see important but where Acc-Ti is willing to test it's ability and face obstacles to prove it's correct which it tends to succeed in because it sets the rules for the test, Cre-Te just knows this a priori and feels challenges to it are something like a bad joke. Relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. Both believe the other is full of crap.

Other issues: cre-te changes the style of person's sexuality from 'victim' to 'caretaking'

Accepting Fi (acc-fi) ISFj/INFj

Judging function:
It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structurizes human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.

Feeling function:
It involves feelings, ethics, hopes and everything that is human but can not be explained by logic or even fully described in words. It looks for generally applicable ways to make contact and interact with people. It is a personal vision gained from social interaction with people. By its actions it changes a 'sensory' situation into an 'intuitive' one. It softens a person's viewpoint and turns him towards generalities from the concrete specifics of a situation. Feeling functions support thinking ones by being able to accept their creations and emphatise with them and thinking functions support feeling ones by giving them structure and protecting them. Using a feeling function enables one to make a personal connection with something, create new value, create something out of nothing.

Introvert function:
It is a systematic function, interested in cause and effect, understanding the rules of the things to which it is used. It is interested more in the questions of how and why rather than who and what. It is information about fields, graphs, maps rather than particular objects. By the actions of this function a questioning, erratic, case by case 'taciturn' action turns into an ordered, uninterrupted flow of 'narrative' information. Introvert functions require the support of extravert ones to yield them raw material for the perfection of their inner models, a base to which the model can be grounded and which it can serve.

Accepting function:
This what one does without thinking. This is the function through which one focuses actions towards a single goal. This is not the same as being a focussed function by itself. This function turns the various interests of the 'result' group into the 'process' group and the 'process' group is the one that is focussed. The importance of this function is rather that it accepts a multitude of base resources, ideas and tasks. It is mobile and can be used in many situations which contrasts the creative functions that can only be used for very particular tasks. This does NOT mean that one is automatically weaker than the other as succesfull use of creative functions tends to create groundbreaking breakthroughs which are very important despite their relative rarity. The accepting functions are balanced rather than supported by the creating functions.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Creation-creating function:
It focuses on what it already knows, is accustomed to, loves, feels bound by, being busy with little time for new things. It only accepts input that is in a familiar form. By its actions it changes the 'tactical' into the 'strategic'. It wears out ideas till they break and till he finally he gets tired of them. It is as if it was working towards a finish line. It takes routine to its natural conclusion. It can become unsettled and disarmed when forced to face something new, powerful and surprising. The 'emotion-creating' functions are supported by the 'creation-creating' functions in that they offers ready-made solutions and models that the 'emotion-creating' can try out and in response it is willing to pay them what they ask for the service.

Compliant function:
It prefers to work with systems that are discussable, that are of generally accepted value, tools, resources, rather than purposes, morals, wishes and ideologies. It takes the opinions and actions of others seriously and has sort of triggers that will get a strong reaction out of it. It tries to collect as much of everything as it can so that it feels it has a firm base from which to act and deals away only what it knows will come back with interest. It is balanced rather than supported by its opposite, the 'obstinate' functions. By its actions it changes the 'carefree' into the 'calculating'.

Acc-Fi also involves a 'sincere' style of communication.

Objective/Grave function:
It embodies the general way of society to do and see things. It's interests lie in upholding the society and being acceptable. It is formal and proper. By its action it changes the 'resolute' into the 'judicious', it finds the simple, easy, efficient path that gives you a surplus to spend. It is peaceful and subdued. Not good at noticing special requirements of people as society and the general correct way to act is supposed to provide and work for everyone.

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Rational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which rules are created as a tool and followed until it's proven they need to be discarded.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: This function is inertial; many emotions are inside such a person, but they do not go outwards, and rather stay “conserved”. Such people are very passionate in evaluating other people, but from outside they seem to be “emotionless”, smiling just as much as etiquette requires. They are good spectators of relations: in a small collective, they very quickly feel who has which relations with whom. They can work with people – as lawyers, pedagogues, etc. However, being so attentive to people's relations, they do not like, even more, they are afraid of “intellectual initiative”, do not like arguing, because it can “break” or just significantly change relations with other people.

Abstract form: He understands the complexities of human relations rather well. The behavior of those around him is judged critically, but he will only voice his opinion if ask. Upon first meeting he often divides people into two categories, the kindred and the strangers. He is very close to his family and friends; he feels a responsibility for them. He is accurate in his first impressions of others, and it is very hard to sway his first perception. With difficulty he compromises with strangers. He easily forgives, and over comes psychological distance.

Concrete form: The ethics of relationships are well understood among all people. He is aware of who gets along and does not get along with whom. He is prone to superfluous trustfulness. He has a great trust in the honesty and decency of others around him. Treason and treachery are not easily forgiven. He differs in tones of courtesy and softness in debate. Humanitarianism often manifests itself in daily matters. He avoids declarations and beautiful words. He is most generous. He knows how to pardon even his enemies, if they have sincerely confessed. Democratic relationships are maintained with all he knows.

Mirror: Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Cre-Fi is 'emotion-creating' and 'obstinate', it tries out ways of social interaction until it finally finds something that, for whatever reason, clicks and then it sticks with it. Acc-Fi is 'creation-creating' and 'compliant', it economically and carefully tends to what it is accustomed to. Cre-Fi will aggressively push itself on the territory of Acc-Fi and usually disappear as quickly and there's not that much that Acc-Fi can do about it. Acc-Fi tends to accept the interaction and hold on to another reality within himself.

Dual: Acc-Fi and Acc-Te cooperate in creating an easy and hospitable environment without nonsense. Acc-Fi provides the content, Acc-Te provides the public face for the system and protection.

Activity: Cre-Te and Acc-Fi share the unbudging upholding of personal systems. These are the respectable conservatives, who strictly enforce the traditions of the society. Acc-Fi does this because it's easy, natural and doesn't force him to let go of anything he holds dear. Cre-Te does this because it feels its the only proven and correct way to act and it would be wrong to act any different.

Super-ego:
Acc-Ti and Acc-Fi share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Fi and Cre-Ti share the air of a watchgul guardian of personal resources and territory, Cre-Ti tries to enlarge his territory directly by forcing others to cede control, Acc-Fi enlargens its territory by becoming accustomed to circumstances and considering as its own wealth the success of people around it, it rules by surrogates. Cre-Ti considers that everything that he can get is his. Acc-Fi considers that everything that he is allowed to have is his. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Fi person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Acc-Fi and Acc-Fe are united in their unlimited, untouchable supply of faith faith, but where Acc-Fe tries to push his faith aggressively to others, Acc-Fi keeps his as a personal reserve of power, because despite its magnitude, Acc-Fi does not trust its faith and will not show it to others. Acc-Fe tries to motivate Acc-Fi into taking a leap of faith and taking a stand for his beliefs but he will be disappointed, not understanding that standing back in humility is the Acc-Fi version of a leap of faith.

Quasi-identical:
Acc-Fi and Cre-Fe are united in their ability to keep up and support people that are important to them and work through these surrogates but where Acc-Fi does this because he feels its the correct way that he must use, Cre-Fe does it for fun. Relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. Both believe the other is a bad influence on people.

Other issues: Acc-Fi changes the style of person's sexuality from 'aggressive' to 'childish'.

Accepting Te (acc-te) = ENTj/ESTj

Judging function:
It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structurizes human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.

Thinking function:
It involves plans, hierarchies, structure, reductionism, dogmas, sophistry, arguments, power, authority and all attempts to force human experiences and ideas into strict forms and definitions. It looks for powerful structures with which to control and modulate the environment and force others to adapt to it. It hardens a person's viewpoint and turns him towards the specific applications of his ideas from their abstract roots. By taking such a firm standpoint, an idea becomes open to criticism but tends to refuse open contact with it. Thinking functions support feeling ones by protecting them and feeling functions support thinking ones by accepting them. Using a thinking function establishes a viewpoint, takes a stand, establishes a territory.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Accepting function:
This what one does without thinking. This is the function through which one focuses actions towards a single goal. This is not the same as being a focussed function by itself. This function turns the various interests of the 'result' group into the 'process' group and the 'process' group is the one that is focussed. The importance of this function is rather that it accepts a multitude of base resources, ideas and tasks. It is mobile and can be used in many situations which contrasts the creative functions that can only be used for very particular tasks. This does NOT mean that one is automatically weaker than the other as succesfull use of creative functions tends to create groundbreaking breakthroughs which are very important despite their relative rarity. The accepting functions are balanced rather than supported by the creating functions.

Limiting function:
It is a function that reduces your field of interest, it pushes you away from frivolous, dangerous, off-limits interests towards the things that you need to focus in. It changes the 'positivism' cathegory into 'negativism'. It is not a subdued function despite this. Rather, it signifies seeking your limits and finally finding them, testing what you wish is true. When it finds its own limits it helps others cross theirs and thus supports the 'empowering' functions.

Emotion-creating function:
It focuses on finding new things, the need to learn, creating an accepting environment, working without preconceptions, checking things out by itself, giving its attention freely, openness. By it's action it changes the 'strategic' into the 'tactical'. It's as if it was looking for a path somewhere. The 'emotion-creating' functions are supported by the 'creation-creating' functions in that they offers ready-made solutions and models that the 'emotion-creating' can try out and in response it is willing to pay them what they ask for the service. Can become disarmed when taken seriously and asked for advice on issues it has yet to analyze.

Compliant function:
It prefers to work with systems that are discussable, that are of generally accepted value, tools, resources, rather than purposes, morals, wishes and ideologies. It takes the opinions and actions of others seriously and has sort of triggers that will get a strong reaction out of it. It tries to collect as much of everything as it can so that it feels it has a firm base from which to act and deals away only what it knows will come back with interest. It is balanced rather than supported by its opposite, the 'obstinate' functions. By its actions it changes the 'carefree' into the 'calculating'.

Acc-Te also involves a 'business-like' style of communication.

Objective/Grave function:
It embodies the general way of society to do and see things. It's interests lie in upholding the society and being acceptable. It is formal and proper. By its action it changes the 'resolute' into the 'judicious', it finds the simple, easy, efficient path that gives you a surplus to spend. It is peaceful and subdued. Not good at noticing special requirements of people as society and the general correct way to act is supposed to provide and work for everyone.


Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Rational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which rules are created as a tool and followed until it's proven they need to be discarded.

Hot function:
It relates to a system of thought in which there are important goals that are common to all people.

Type-spotting:
Lytov:
It estimates everything in terms of efficiency: not abstract analysis, but "how to make it work?", and not systems, but methods. They are energetic, active, and mobile. As scientists, they are strong in improvement of methods, but often they choose a business career. However, people who work together with them, often blame these types of being "too dry, cold-hearted", even in spite of their high emotionality. In general, this type of thinking may be called “algorithmic”.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: the business logic It sees well the possibilities of the new matters. He knows, as to turn the matter so that it would bring the perceptible benefit. It criticizes those, who deal, from its point of view, with useless theories. It is enterprising and light to the lift. He frequently is fascinated by the dynamic forms of sport - marches, by tourism, mountain climbing, run and the like it does not fear missions and passages but new places. It boldly advances business initiative and persistently attains its realization. If the possibilities of project are exhausted, rapidly it is thrown to new direction. It knows how to be turned with the finances. It attempts to hold its cash resources in turnover, playing on the difference of prices. The basic levers of material interest are concentrated in its hands.

Concrete form:
Gulenko: He is an energetic and operational person. It is said that he can work more in an hour then less efficient people can work in a day. He is a champion for the quality, the reliability and the productivity of labor. He is interested in daring, nonstandard technological solutions. He must rationalize every activity. He is zealous and economical. He has the urge to provide well for himself and his family. He skillfully exploits technology. He possesses an exceptionally practical turn of mind. Everything is evaluated from the point of view of expediency and usefulness. He teaches people how to use their minds effectively.


Relation to other functions:
Mirror:
Ganin: "What one partner considers solid and final appears incomplete and changeable for the other partner." Cre-Te is 'creation-creating' and 'obstinate', it's nihilistic, knows everything for certain and is not willing to discuss any of it. Acc-Te is 'emotion-creating' and 'compliant' open to all new ideas but keeps them only if they prove useful in concrete ways. Cre-Te takes care of its own caring little for Acc-Te, Acc-Te is forced to try to find a way to work with it and often succeeds in working around the Cre-Te viewpoint.

Dual: Acc-Fi and Acc-Te cooperate in creating an easy and hospitable environment without nonsense. Acc-Fi provides the content, Acc-Te provides the public face for the system and protection.

Activity: Cre-Fi and Acc-Te share the willingness to test out anything that seems generally reasonable and be generally helpful. These are the generally most available people, most willing to cooperate and make things easier in their environment. Cre-Fi does this out of a vague but pressing sense that it should be done, Acc-Te sees it as an investment. Abstract version of this activity partnership is generally more satisfying than the concrete one.

Superego:
Acc-Te and Acc-Fe share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Te and Cre-Fe share the air of a person who cultivates people, Cre-Fe picks strong, powerful people who it tries to tame and be tamed by, Acc-Te picks weak, subdued people who it tries to support, enhance and be employed by. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Te person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Acc-Te and Acc-Ti are united in their willingness to test intellectual structures and theories, but where Acc-Ti makes his choice of theories on intensely personal criteria of what he knows must be true, Acc-Te tests if the theory has some use in his environment. Acc-Te tends to apply models directly whereas Acc-Ti tends to situationally adapt them. When a model fails, Acc-Te tends to be the one that suffers the consequences and bitter if the origin of the model was the Acc-Ti.

Quasi-identical:
Acc-Te and Cre-Ti are united in their business-like dealing with people, considering them as recources, but where Acc-Te is willing to look for where the profit from each relationship could come from, Cre-Ti tends to force every relationship under the same rules that have worked for him before. Relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Both think the methods of the other are risky and that the other is lucky when he's succesful.

Other issues: acc-te changes the style of person's sexuality from 'victim' to 'caretaking'

Creating Fe (cre-fe) = ISFp/INFp

Judging function:
It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structurizes human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.

Feeling function:
It involves feelings, ethics, hopes and everything that is human but can not be explained by logic or even fully described in words. It looks for generally applicable ways to make contact and interact with people. It is a personal vision gained from social interaction with people. By its actions it changes a 'sensory' situation into an 'intuitive' one. It softens a person's viewpoint and turns him towards generalities from the concrete specifics of a situation. Feeling functions support thinking ones by being able to accept their creations and emphatise with them and thinking functions support feeling ones by giving them structure and protecting them. Using a feeling function enables one to make a personal connection with something, create new value, create something out of nothing.

Extrovert function:
It involves individual objects rather than systems and rules. It is interested more in the questions of who and what than in the questions of how and why. Its fixation on particular objects allows it to examine them thoroughly, from many point of view and to find new characteristics in them. By the actions of this function an ordered flow of 'narrative' information turns into a disassembled, erratic, questioning 'taciturn' discussion, or playing with concepts. Extrovert functions are supported by the introvert ones by letting them avoid repeating mistakes and guiding their actions.

Creating function:
This is what you concentrate on and are impressed by. This is a mile-stone, a worthy goal, a personal horizon and limit. Through success in the use of this function a great set of new personal possibilities arise. This function turns the focused action of the 'process' group into the multi-tasking hassle that is the 'result' group. The importance of this function is that it often reflects a person's greatest accomplishments, the result of all his efforts. It is generally concentrated for long periods on very particular tasks. The creating functions are balanced rather than supported by the accepting ones.

Empowering function:
It is a function that widens your area of interest, it's use creates great confidence in a person's ability. It changes the 'negativism' dichotomy' into 'positivism'. It signifies the crossing of personal limits, embarking on a personal adventure, looking for and finding self-confidence. It supports the limiting functions by taking responsibility away from them, making limits elsewhere easier to accept.

Emotion-creating function:
It focuses on finding new things, the need to learn, creating an accepting environment, working without preconceptions, checking things out by itself, giving its attention freely, openness. By it's action it changes the 'strategic' into the 'tactical'. It's as if it was looking for a path somewhere. The 'emotion-creating' functions are supported by the 'creation-creating' functions in that they offers ready-made solutions and models that the 'emotion-creating' can try out and in response it is willing to pay them what they ask for the service. Can become disarmed when taken seriously and asked for advice on issues it has yet to analyze.


Compliant function:
It prefers to work with systems that are discussable, that are of generally accepted value, tools, resources, rather than purposes, morals, wishes and ideologies. It takes the opinions and actions of others seriously and has sort of triggers that will get a strong reaction out of it. It tries to collect as much of everything as it can so that it feels it has a firm base from which to act and deals away only what it knows will come back with interest. It is balanced rather than supported by its opposite, the 'obstinate' functions. By its actions it changes the 'carefree' into the 'calculating'.

Cre-Fe also involves a 'sincere' style of communication.

Subjective/Merry function:
It embodies a view of the world derived from intensely personal experiences. It's interests lie in turning this personal vision into something universally accepted. It is radical and contrarian. By its action it changes the 'judicious' into the 'resolute'. It seeks the ignored options, seeks to revolutionize things, it picks the path with many obstacles. It makes situational and personalized choices and is willing to adapt. It seeks niche-markets, it creates powerful bonds of mutual loyalty.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

Irrational function:
It relates to a system of thought in which people establish general rules only when they are found necessary.

Cold function:
It relates to a system of thought in which goals are personal.

Type-spotting:
Lytov: They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Humanist and Conservator with the dominant introverted ethic) for their strive for good relations with other people, very mild and comfortable manner of communication. However, there is a difference: both Lyricist and Mediator are emotionally active and even often try to awake emotions in other people. By contrast, Humanist and Conservator rather strive to suppress excessive emotions, to release other people from redundant, unnecessary emotions.

Abstract form:
Gulenko: the ethics of the emotions The reasons for human emotions are understood. He knows, as to cheer up or to anger one or other person or another. In the contact of nonformal nature it is invariably friendly, demonstrates optimism. It loves to be enjoyed in the close to the circle of friends. It attempts to cheer up those surrounding by jokes, hints, drawings. Its thoughts are directed toward the methods of obtaining the positive emotions. In the disputes, the differences, the explanations of relations it does not interfere, since with all he wants to live in the world. From the center of conflict it is held on the safe distance. It gathers and shares with familiar different rumors, gossips, sensational and simply curious information. It is always in the course of the secular chronicle of its circle.

Constract form:
Gulenko: the ethics of the emotions Well it examines laws governing the emotional life of people. It knows how at the necessary moment, when man is situated in a good arrangement of spirit, to be handled request, so that to him is difficult to refuse. Thinly it reacts to the ridiculous in the life. Humor loves. It jokes, it durachitsya, it pulls at close people, causing they have positive emotions by different methods. It is peaceful, it does not transfer the quarrels between the close people. Easily it goes to the reconciliation, with the readiness sacrificing itself for the pay-off of conflict. It is internally anxious. Much survives, but hides agitation and poor mood after the soft smile.

Relation to other functions:
Mirror:

Dual:

Activity:

Super-ego:
Cre-Te and Cre-Fe share a point of view but fight for power. Each feels the other's methods are misplaced. The results of their actions are in many ways directly opposite and thus the actions of the other seem to only make worse what the other perceives to be the problem.

Conflict:
Acc-Te and Cre-Fe share the air of a person who cultivates people, Cre-Fe picks strong, powerful people who it tries to tame and be tamed by, Acc-Te picks weak, subdued people who it tries to support, enhance and be employed by. They will constantly find themselves in cross purposes with the Acc-Te person often being in a slightly advantageous and more commanding position.

Contrary:
Cre-Fi and Cre-Fe are united in their ability to make friends quickly with any and all people but where Cre-Fi is looking for something to believe in, Cre-Fe is looking for something powerful and useful. Cre-Fi feels betrayed when he finds out the lack of values in Cre-Fe and feels their friendship as empty. From the outside it is often difficult to differentiate these two. Quadra spirit will generally be the easiest way.

Quasi-identical:
Acc-Fi and Cre-Fe are united in their ability to keep up and support people that are important to them and work through these surrogates but where Acc-Fi does this because he feels its the correct way that he must use, Cre-Fe does it for fun. Relation of mutual misunderstanding and often disrespect. Unwillingness to engage in dialog. Both believe the other is a bad influence on people.

Other issues: Cre-Fe changes the style of person's sexuality from 'care-taking' to 'victim'.

[Smilingeyes]

Thank you! So that's pages 1,2,3,5 and 6 save with 4,7,8 and 9 missing atm.

[Steve]

Page 1:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=1

Page 2:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2

Page 3:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=3

[Steve]

Here's another recovered (mostly) thread of yours, Smilingeyes, you may have this already, not sure though:
http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=8988

[CuriousSoul]

Those cached pages will disappear after a few days or weeks. Lets' throw the original biographical article on the forum at least.


Smilingeyes wrote
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:58 pm

Post subject: How I learned to stop worrying and love personality change

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

an original biographical article by
Dr Strangeeyes
...

Many people constantly are amazed by my claim that I have changed my personality type. I'm going to try to write what I experienced and try to make the connections to personality types. You are free to, if you so wish, to make claims afterward.

The following narrative, though true for the most part, will contain enough lies that I hopefully won't be recognized by anyone whose not supposed to.

That includes you.

.....

When I was a kid, I was heavily introvert, I mostly played with whatever toys I had and watched people. I watched people like a deer in the headlights watches the car. I was a very scared little kid. I was scared of the dark, monkeys, spies, my cousin, aliens, hippies, trolls, onions but most of all I was scared of death. Except that I wasn't afraid of dying per se. I was afraid of things ending. In some way, though my life was rather miserable in all it's being afraidness, I also loved my fears and wouldn't have exchanged my lot for anything.

What's particularly interesting is that I expressed my fears usually that I was afraid of the passing of time. You see, I was a very nice, a very proper child. That's the way I wanted it to be. I wanted to be the best possible child in the world. And somehow I believed that that would lead to good things, and whenever something bad happened, it was bad and whenever something good happened, it was bad too, because I was afraid that that was all the good that was ever going to happen and that now it was over. Thus, I never wanted anything to happen. I was afraid of the passing of time.

By now, it will not come as a surprise to you, that this would be easily recognized as 4th function Ni. When I add to this, the matter that as a child, I was the brainy kid, and not only any old brainy kid, I was the child with perfect self control. I never laughed and rarely had any actual real emotions at all, you'll soon notice that I was an ESTj.

Me being an ESTj was probably not a circumstance of upbringing as my family consisted of parents INTj&ISFj and brother ENTp (who later turned ESTp). So was I born into it? Was ESTj my natural type? Is it still it? Thing is, when Jung originally wrote about natural types he wrote that dysfunction and unhappiness is sometimes caused can be caused by being diverted from one's natural type. Well, my childhood was miserable, and I was miserable being an ESTj. I was also pretty weird and dysfunctional. (heck, I was a delta, and thus a very strong strange personality).

I continued this way for a rather long while. During these years it was quite common for me to change into ESFj in certain situations when I was trying to make proven friends happy but this was short-living and an aberration of the normal circumstances. I was naturally bullied being "smarter" than the rest of the school together as was once proven in a trivia quiz of me vs. school and I was a natural loner anyway (delta)...

Again, I was not happy. I was not happy due to the circumstances but I was also not really happy when I was by myself. I didn't allow myself to be so.

Things came to a breaking point somewhere in the upper classes of school. People like to think that school violence is something like a recent thing, while it of course isn't. There was a person in my school whose tongue was branded by gang members. Another one was bathed in kerosene. Violence seemed a lot more personal and creative in those days. Anyways, I was sufficiently in fear of my life that I decided that I could not keep on living the way I had.

While I had previously been shy and introverted I forced myself to become happy in all situations and make friends of everyone around me. I started wearing purposefully flashy things and started to practice witticisms and social-related skills, like card games and magic tricks. Also I started to concentrate more on play-writing, something I had previously only dabbled in and now formed a theatre group. Pretty soon I had the whole school around my little finger, including people who had bullied me previously. At the same time my earlier earned skills in academic subjects remained above the level of anyone around me.


At this time I moved to another city and started high school.

This would easily be characterized as one of the happiest times in my life. While my persona change was artificial, it didn't feel fake. My persona had always been first and foremost about quality and surpassing others. So why couldn't I turn this interest into the social life. At the same time I started experimenting with feelings. I had become very aware of how odd it was not to have any and was also slightly disturbed by experiencing nightly violent nightmares for 10 straight years. I started trying to push myself into situations that would cause a maximal feeling reaction in myself. I took a role of "school psychiatrist" because I wanted to hear as many sob stories as I could. It also helped the social thing.

Around this time my fear of time passing went away. I thought I just grew out of it.

While I was still the same me, I had socially turned completely different and the change helped me. I not only learned new skills but the overall quality of my life was better.

High school came to an end and university called. The change was dramatic again. I felt that I had been practicing my all life for this stage. This was what I had believed I had kept up my quality standards for. Imagine my surprise when I found out that in the university nobody cared for your quality, least of all the students. The assortment of moneygreedy fools, test-cheating beer-guzzling frat boys and scared-of-everything nerdies was a complete shock.

Therefore I rejected the student body and started charming the faculty. Pretty soon I was involved in a number of research groups and was actively courted by faculty members. But thing is, this was no longer an environment in which tests were set beforehand in such a way that success was possible. The people who succeed in research are no longer the people with the brightest minds, it's the people who are willing to go through every possible path of failure to finally find, if not the correct, at least the best answer. (This is how it is in medicine, in other fields, the situation is undoubtedly different).

Anyway, not being able to succeed in a research project, even if the fault was not personally mine, was again a massive crisis. At that point I thought I started to feel really bad again. I started doing more and more work in a futile effort to keep up the standards of success I had set. I thought I was reverting to the habits of childhood but actually this was very different. As a kid, it was all about me and my success. When I was starting my research career I was afraid of being thought a fake. I was more concerned with avoiding failure than achieving success. I was concerned with appearances. I was environmentally concious and started manipulating it to appear better. I had gone ENFj.

At that time I started doing politics for real. I joined a party and competed for party positions. Due to academic background I started my own policy analysis group and it became rather succesful. I started picking out good guys to help, write speeches for them and so on. I did all of this while being fully cognisant that this was in no way related to my earlier life or career. I did this because I felt that this is what people should do. People should be politically interested and active. People should try to mold the society to become a better place.

It was around this time that I found my soon to be wife an later ex-wife. She was a sociohistorian and politics was a common interest to us. She was an ESTp and I fell in love with her because I thought she looked like an army officer. At that time I was feeling very vulnerable and attracted to strong cold women. In the beginning, our relationship was mutually psychologically negative, but we developed it into something better. During that development I became calm. For financial reasons I had the control of our relationship and this taught me again how to be in control, this time not of myself but my whole environment. My wife started molding more and more to my will and became happier at the same time. While I was becoming an ENTj, she was becoming an ESFp. This was the happiest time in our relationship and was in general a very happy time in my life as well. I continued doing politics but at that time, for the first time ever, my creativity died out. I became unable to write plays. On the other hand my ability to do research soared. I was no longer the academic virtuoso in the group, I just naturally took control of the projects around me. It was strange. I felt I had the least understanding of what I was doing in a concrete way I had ever had, yet I seemed to be trusted in a way I had never before been. I felt like I was riding the biggest wave in the world in a limousine. But you know, a limousine has no business being on a wave in the first place.

I still felt smarter than anyone else around me... Just, for the first time, I simultaneously knew I had no idea what I was doing. Only, I was quite certain neither had anyone else. I started doing stock investments, and did very well. At the same time I was increasingly aware of how there was an asynchrony in how I was living my life and what was my position in life. A medical researcher, no matter how good and succesful he is, is a very minor character in the world. I felt succesful in life, yet I had not actually gained the trappings to validate the feeling. Also, the marriage, while a positive force in my life (now that we'd both left our negativity behind us) was still somehow, inexplicably not fulfilling. I had memories about a series of teen-age sweethearts that all had had a certain undescribable quality that my wife was lacking. (later on I have come to notice that the objects of my interest had all been IJs, first INFjs, later INTjs of a progressively more thinking variety, until I found my wife-to-be. .... Ok, there was an interlude with a couple of INTps which was very confusing as they were actually my conflicting partners at the time...)

So...

I was sort of happy, but static. Actually I was very happy and very static. And then I knew I had to somehow leave behind what I had and try again. But a life is not something that is easily changed. Even if my life's guiding rule had always been that giving in, adapting, is the path to victory, it still wasn't easy. Furthermore, while I had before changed only out of necessity and to a direction that was pointed to me by outside sources, I was now doing it out of a vague sense that it should be done, maybe more out of the habit of changing my persona than anything else. I lacked guide posts.

It was around this time that I returned to my earlier interest of archetypes. And while I was in the process of divorce I happily found socionics. At that time I was an ENTj and thought I had been that way forever. Actually, I had always thought I was INTJ but that was in MBTI and yes, I was an MBTI INTJ while I was a socionics ESFj and a socionics ENFj as well. Funny that.

And with socionics I found understanding of what I had been doing & what needed to be done.

During this year I've been trying to turn into an ESTj. I've left almost all my previous friends behind (they just don't seem that important anymore). I'm leaving behind academic research and planning a return to patients (research was always a group effort and pretty boring at that. I continued it for it's social importance.) I'm falling in love with an INFj. I'm finally taking care of my body better. I'm caring less and less about socionics. I know I'm succeeding in many ways and brought this on myself but at the same time I'm feeling miserable. It's a good miserable, but still I'm feeling miserable. Also, the nightmares are back. And so is the fear of passing time. Funny how life can be...

And in all point of my life, I always felt that this was how I had always been and would probably always be.

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Added notes. During the first years of university, when I was still looking to continue my high school life style, I started a private psychology hot-line. I distributed my phone number as someone to call in evening & night time if you felt you needed to talk to someone. This hobby kept me going through my early university studies. I had never had any education on how to speak to mentally disturbed people, and there were a a lot of them, yet these difficult conversations were never taxing to me, they were refreshing.

During the years of low success in the field of research (partly due to a certain ENTp boss who ran his whole lab to the ground), during the years that I was becoming an ENFj that is, I finally found religion. My INTj father was very religious, but his brand of "robespierrian christianity" had always pushed me away. At that time, I suddenly found Zen, and became the devout buddhist witch I am today. Ok, not today, as I haven't really needed religion for years, but in those days it was what kept me going.
.........

There are undoubtedly a few thousand things I'm omitting and about 20% of that is a flat out lie (though not the important stuff), but this is my experience of how my personality has evolved and why I'm where I'm now doing the things I'm doing and have no intention to stay as an ESTj, my "personality type" for the rest of my life. I hope to still have time to have a child or maybe even a couple (as the girl I'm involved with is significantly younger than I am) but even at the risk of losing her and the dual relation, there's no way I could stand being an ESTj forever. (I still have brief episodes of ENTj activity in my life, and get small ESFjish moments but the ENFj in me is, for the moment, gone, dead, in heaven, buried, grilled, done with. At least that's a good thing.)

So, for the next few years at least, it's all about pushing myself, violent dreams and narcisstic drive for personal success.