me

[anndelise]

Joy,

you started this thread in the what's my type forum.
as such it's assumed (not just by me) that you are asking for feedback of some kind
I gave you feedback for what I see, based on one of the systems of proof you were using (read as reinin dichotomies)
I explained my reasoning however, even before being asked for it (like a good little narrator I gave you the "story" of what I saw)
obviously, you don't agree with the ones that don't match up (it's to be expected!)

I did my best to make my reasons as clear as I could.
I do not feel that I received the same from you. I feel as if I get either a statement of "fact" or lengthy quotes that somehow I'm supposed to sort through and know what information is relevant and what isn't. (Te's provide me with minimal yet clearly relevant information.....which of course, you don't)

You're right, we do not know what you are like in person.
Even webcams do not give enough information, imo.
Emotions do not show well in writing, nor webcams (unless one is being VERY emotional at the time).
So when it all comes down to it, there really isn't all that much we can offer to you to see things how we see them...nor for you to get us to see things how you see them.


I believe that in this matter, you and I run into an issue that might include "Reasonable vs Resolute" with both of us being "Obstinate".
I do not believe you and I will be able to arrive at any kind of....agreement...in this, other than to say, "at least we did our best to clearly communicate and arrive at some kind of mutual understanding".
Perhaps someday, we can try again.

[aestrivex]

I don't know what type Joy really is. I just know that she's having to try to hard at the present moment to appear LIE for her to really be one. Unless she's just that crazy...

However, if I had to answer, I would say that I see her F (particularly Se+Fi) in the fact that she loves to cultivate her relationships with people on the forum and spread her influence in precisely the manner that I've been pointing out: for her, it's PMing people, and developing relationships independant from the atmosphere of the forum. You'd never guess it, but Joy and I are rather good friends: we've spoken on the phone multiple times, and used to routinely offer one another life advice, consolation/condolences, etc.

I think Joy has stronger Fe than she tells us, or perhaps even really believes: she's perfectly capable of making people like her and ingratiating herself with anyone she comes across. However, for her, the relationship with the individual CLEARLY takes presidence over the "social" atmosphere: there have been numerous times when I've been arguing at least somewhat heatedly with Joy in a topic on the forum, and was suprised by a new PM in my inbox mid-bout about a completely different subject, in (to my boundless bewilderment) a perfectly genial and familiar tone. Throws me COMPLETELY off-guard (which is probably why she does it ).

Joy is also quite obviously a powerful and influential figure on the forum. Without having any particularly specialized or well-developed knowledge of socionics, she has risen to the position of "Queen Bee," and could hardly be deposed, even if someone dared to try She obviously knows how to get power (Se), and her preferred method is by being a highly visible (extroversion) and openly controversial (unvalued Fe, valued Se) figure in the grand scheme of things.

She has also always been unreceptive to the reasoning and complex explanations of others regarding the mechanics and workings of socionics, preferring clear, concise explanations of the basic criteria, along with what she sees as objective criteria and facts, in determining her type and that of others. Ti PoLR, Te dual-seeking.

hallelujah.

[Slacker]

The Fi thing you said makes sense, Gilly.

[Gilly]

Basically, Joy, you need to stop asking people their opinions on your type if you're just going to sit around and refute them.

[Gilly]

Ti PoLR, Te dual-seeking.

Informing post. Except for this last part. It would be Te hidden agenda not dual seeking.

It hath been fix-ed. My most heartfelt gratitude goeth out to thou.

[Gilly]

Oh, and let me say something about the difference between Beta and Gamma "controversial" figures:

Beta controversial figures like to be in the limelight because they enjoy the publicity, fame, and generally Fe-associated things that it rewards them with, as well as the power they get from it. However, they won't do anything TOO radical or non-mainstream, because part of their goal is to bask in the limelight that they get by being just controversial enough.

Gamma controversial figures, like Joy, like to be controversial solely for the sake of the power that it gets them by way of being visible, and, by way of not valuing Fe, will be volatile to the level of not caring what the atmosphere's position on their personalities is, as long as they can still affect change in it; they feel that it's ok to compromise their integrity as long as it gets them more power.

[oyburger]

The height difference between you and Peter is about the same as it is for Daniel and I

<3 tall, younger men.

[Gilly]

Joy CLEARLY falls into the Gamma category: she does what she wants, when she wants it, because she has the power to, and doesn't really care too much about her social image (which clearly sucks ), as long as people are still willing to be friends with her (which is obviously the case). She uses that social recklass abanon to be just THAT MUCH MORE visible, and, in turn, more powerful in her own right. She's a perfect example of how someone can be "unpopular," but still have just as many friends as anyone.

[anndelise]

I don't know what type Joy really is. I just know that she's having to try to hard at the present moment to appear LIE for her to really be one. Unless she's just that crazy...

However, if I had to answer, I would say that I see her F (particularly Se+Fi) in the fact that she loves to cultivate her relationships with people on the forum and spread her influence in precisely the manner that I've been pointing out: for her, it's PMing people, and developing relationships independant from the atmosphere of the forum. You'd never guess it, but Joy and I are rather good friends: we've spoken on the phone multiple times, and used to routinely offer one another life advice, consolation/condolences, etc.

I think Joy has stronger Fe than she tells us, or perhaps even really believes: she's perfectly capable of making people like her and ingratiating herself with anyone she comes across. However, for her, the relationship with the individual CLEARLY takes presidence over the "social" atmosphere: there have been numerous times when I've been arguing at least somewhat heatedly with Joy in a topic on the forum, and was suprised by a new PM in my inbox mid-bout about a completely different subject, in (to my boundless bewilderment) a perfectly genial and familiar tone. Throws me COMPLETELY off-guard (which is probably why she does it ).

Joy is also quite obviously a powerful and influential figure on the forum. Without having any particularly specialized or well-developed knowledge of socionics, she has risen to the position of "Queen Bee," and could hardly be deposed, even if someone dared to try She obviously knows how to get power (Se), and her preferred method is by being a highly visible (extroversion) and openly controversial (unvalued Fe, valued Se) figure in the grand scheme of things.

She has also always been unreceptive to the reasoning and complex explanations of others regarding the mechanics and workings of socionics, preferring clear, concise explanations of the basic criteria, along with what she sees as objective criteria and facts, in determining her type and that of others. Ti PoLR, Te hidden-agenda.

good job Gilly!!!!

(I need a smiley for expressing admiration to posts!)

[Gilly]

[Joy]

Gilligan, your post made more sense as an argument for SeFi than anything else I've seen or heard. And contrary to what it seems most people believe, I am neither asking people what type I am nor telling people what type I am. ENTj still makes the most sense, but it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. It doesn't matter if people agree with me or not. It doesn't matter if other people are right or wrong. And it most certainly doesn't matter which Gamma type I am, cause they all kick ass.

I guess I just wanted one more, for old times sake.

[discojoe]

Gilligeorge's posts rings false to me, and everyone's frivolous responses were unwarranted and stupid.

Joy values Se, but she does not, in ANY way, use it effectively. What you all see is Ni+Te understanding motivations and knowing which buttons to press. Joy simply does not exercise Se at ALL, except in unconfident bouts of worry. She exhibits absolutely no signs of a Te hidden agenda (she doesn't like "school," doesn't enjoy learning, and doesn't harbor any desire whatsoever to be seen as knowledgeable and wonderful), and has no trouble at all explaining things to herself and I in a factual, concise way. She is actually very good at explaining things, and I am kind of amused that people see her differently. Many people will sneer at this as an outright lie, but you are really seeing Joy's underdeveloped skill at writing composition and (quite frankly) jumping to the conclusion that she lacks Te, which she does not.

It is true that Joy disfavors Ti concepts, but it is not an area of neurosis or anxiety for her. On only one occasion have I seen Joy demonstrate any stress over an issue that required Ti-style thinking, and it was an incredibly abstract mental jigsaw puzzle that I constructed out of boredom, that not many people would be able to quickly understand unless they have studied critical thinking. Her stress was over straining a subconscious function that needs effort to be really used creatively, not because her "weak spot" was getting poked. I have *only* ever seen Joy recoil from me when an area of her health/hygiene or household cleanliness was criticized.

*sigh* think what you want, sheep.

[Gilly]

Would anyone who knows anything about Socionics care to step to the pulpit (after it's been vacuumed, of course)?

[discojoe]

Would anyone who knows anything about Socionics care to step to the pulpit (after it's been vacuumed, of course)?

Ah, protecting that ego of yours, I see.

What you say is ironic, since everything I wrote is 100% true and you disagree with it.

[Gilly]

Oh yeah, it's all true; I don't disagree with real-time factual observations. The problem is that basically nothing you wrote is in any way relevant to Socionics. Now go back to sticking your Wii controller in and out of your asshole before you get embarrased any more.

[aestrivex]

Gilligeorge's posts rings false to me, and everyone's frivolous responses were unwarranted and stupid.

Joy values Se, but she does not, in ANY way, use it effectively. What you all see is Ni+Te understanding motivations and knowing which buttons to press. Joy simply does not exercise Se at ALL, except in unconfident bouts of worry. She exhibits absolutely no signs of a Te hidden agenda (she doesn't like "school," doesn't enjoy learning, and doesn't harbor any desire whatsoever to be seen as knowledgeable and wonderful), and has no trouble at all explaining things to herself and I in a factual, concise way. She is actually very good at explaining things, and I am kind of amused that people see her differently. Many people will sneer at this as an outright lie, but you are really seeing Joy's underdeveloped skill at writing composition and (quite frankly) jumping to the conclusion that she lacks Te, which she does not.

It is true that Joy disfavors Ti concepts, but it is not an area of neurosis or anxiety for her. On only one occasion have I seen Joy demonstrate any stress over an issue that required Ti-style thinking, and it was an incredibly abstract mental jigsaw puzzle that I constructed out of boredom, that not many people would be able to quickly understand unless they have studied critical thinking. Her stress was over straining a subconscious function that needs effort to be really used creatively, not because her "weak spot" was getting poked. I have *only* ever seen Joy recoil from me when an area of her health/hygiene or household cleanliness was criticized.

*sigh* think what you want, sheep.

i don't see one bit of useful argumentation in this whole thing. it is interesting that what little does make sense of this post entirely contradicts what most people observe from joy on this forum.

either you are intentionally attempting to mislead us, completely brainwashed, correct but entirely incapable of forming some sort of coherent argument, or just plain stupid.

[discojoe]

Oh yeah, it's all true; I don't disagree with real-time factual observations. The problem is that basically nothing you wrote is in any way relevant to Socionics. Now go back to sticking your Wii controller in and out of your asshole before you get embarrased any more.

Heh, too bad your theories and "understandings" of Socionics are based on some internal, made up system that possesses no real information and that can't be used to accomplish anything.

Hopefully I've provoked you into making a self-revealing, ego-driven wall-of-text for me to laugh at, replete with a large assortment of smilies at the end of every sentence to serve as the punchline for the joke/insult you couldn't think of.

[Gilly]

Peter, quick, save face with some ad hominem while there's still time!

Oh wait...

[discojoe]

i don't see one bit of useful argumentation in this whole thing. it is interesting that what little does make sense of this post entirely contradicts what most people observe from joy on this forum.

either you are intentionally attempting to mislead us, completely brainwashed, correct but entirely incapable of forming some sort of coherent argument, or just plain stupid.

Nah, I provided useful (i.e., existent) information that is valid and applicable to reality, as opposed to the Ti stroke-a-thons that you guys seem so fond of (and are a reason I steer clear of a lot of you). If it read confusingly it is because I am half drunk.

[discojoe]

Peter, quick, save face with some ad hominem while there's still time!

Oh wait...

When people use the term "ad hominem" I am always amused at the hypocritical context in which it (edit) usually is delivered.

[Gilly]

Or fully retarded.

[discojoe]

Or fully retarded.

ad hominemz

[Gilly]

[discojoe]

[Gilly]

Peter, quick, save face with some ad hominem while there's still time!

Oh wait...

When people use the term "ad hominem" I am always amused at the hypocritical context in which it (edit) usually is delivered.

Except that it's not hypocritical, because I never claimed to not use ad hominem, and wasn't saving face, as I had already embarassed you sufficiently.

[Gilly]

Do me. Now.

[aestrivex]

I am half drunk.

then that explains half of your behavior. you're still 50% responsible for your own stupidity.

[discojoe]

I am half drunk.

then that explains half of your behavior. you're still 50% responsible for your own stupidity.

Ah, the old D&D nerd acting the badass from behind his computer screen. Grumpy because you missed Larry King? lol dumbass.

[Gilly]

Ah, the old Trekky acting the badass from behind his computer screen. Grumpy because you missed Naruto? lol dumbass

[discojoe]

Ah, the old Trekky acting the badass from behind his computer screen. Grumpy because you missed Naruto? lol dumbass

Heh. Anyways, I'm out. Peace.

edit: trekkie*

[Gilly]

A graceful exit? On this forum? For the love of God, someone lock and sticky this...FAST!

[UDP]

Joy:

http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/fr.html < http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/pt.html


That is my current objective appraisal.

[Kim]

It is impossible to type Joy. Apparently she is different in real life and if that is the case, you can argue all you want. The only things I am sure of are:

Most definitely Fi > Fe for the reasons mentioned. I totally see an Fe PoLR. We all know that one of her biggest problems is that she cannot effectively use Fe on here, but she rarely misses the appropriate tone in pms. Joy has actually surprised me with pms that I felt were very much geared towards me as a person and indicated awareness of how to talk to me. Perhaps Iit's a coincidence, but there were several times where she said the right things at the right time (on one occasion, she was the only one who did what needed to be done, kudos, Joy) in pm. It seems on the forum she has an attitude of not giving a damn and I can interpret that as "I can't please everybody, people are going to bitch, why bother?" Fe PoLR anyone? Sure, Joy can interact professionally with clients - well, my (most certainly) INTp ex is a pastor. Your strongest function is not what you are good at it is the one you are most naturally inclined to use (!!!!!!!!!!!).

As for facial expression, I am often amazed by the lack of expression on her face when I see her on the webcam. It has been a long time that we did a voicechat and even there she does not have much expression, which is very unlike any ESFp I know.

Joy often states that she does not have much energy to do things. She mostly talks about housework, but I have heard that about work-related stuff as well, unless it is something she enjoys. And I think Joy seems very---uhm----non-energetic to me, but I can only go by what she says here and might also be influenced by the lack of expression.

I think Joy is Te>Ti and I still think she looks introverted. I have thought ESFp before, even recently, but she just lacks the energy and expression of ESFp and my impression aligns with Peter's (wow, eh?) in that I don't see much Se. And ESFps have energy unless they are depressed.

Joy often gets on my nerves, but I admire her "whatever" attitude sometimes. I WANT IT!!! I am sure she is gamma and I think that has been established. I doubt she is ENTj. ENTjs learn for different reasons than Joy. Joy lays out the plan and the uses Te to realize it. Look at her real estate career:

She has her plan laid out for her. She concerns herself with the development of her career and seems in tune with the time frame (this has nothing to do with success) and Te works as the creative function in her real estate endeavours. She trains to be a house inspector, reads real estate info. Te is used to support the plan.

And now, dear people, I will happily send a shockwave through #socionix. the very home of sdom:

Since there is one type I associate with all of this, I will type the untypable...

*drumroll*

Joy is INTp

Eat this, bitches!

I still have not entirely ruled out ISTp...but she really does seem gamma.

[Joy]

Gilligan's been saying I have a Fe PoLR for months! He only today changed his mind in this very thread. I think Kim's type appraisal here has been the best yet for any type, I might add. (But that could be the Percocet talking lol)

INTp makes much more sense to me than ESFp. However, in spite of the low energy level, mentally I'm proactive, restless > calm, balanced by far. btw, the real estate stuff is coming along quite nicely =D

I've made a few threads about what a PoLR hit is like compared to a Role hit... no responses in the new one, if I'm not mistaken.

Fe pretty much just irritates me. I don't find it threatening, but it pisses me off when people criticize mine. I resent that I'm expected to live up to societal standards, and nothing gets to me like societal roles, particularly gender roles. If someone hits Fe I pretty much tell them to fuck off. Or I use Ni to pwn them (generally without making it look like that's what I was trying to do, which is why the Beta Ni types say I'm manipulative ).

Si hits... well, I'll just shut up and sit there feeling bad for a few hours (even over stupid things, like saying that I should take a shower or that I have garlic breath). Not just anyone can do it though. It has to be someone that I care about a lot.

We all know that one of her biggest problems is that she cannot effectively use Fe on here, but she rarely misses the appropriate tone in pms. Joy has actually surprised me with pms that I felt were very much geared towards me as a person and indicated awareness of how to talk to me. Perhaps Iit's a coincidence, but there were several times where she said the right things at the right time (on one occasion, she was the only one who did what needed to be done, kudos, Joy) in pm.

That's the Ni. The part that I bolded is actually something I've heard from quite a few people. (: When Gilligan described the tone I take in PMs to him, it's not the same tone I take when talking to other people. This is why I have a difficult time communicating in group situations... I can't possibly communicate that way to everyone at once, so I fall back on Te and piss people off. There are VERY few people who I cannot get along with well in one on one communication, and there are prolly a couple dozen people here who can attest to that.

[Joy]

oh yeah? well you're a big fat idiot

[Mea]

I'd rather go with discojoe's account of Joy since he knows her in real life. And from that alone, she seems different in real life.
I agree with this:

It is impossible to type Joy. Apparently she is different in real life and if that is the case, you can argue all you want.

Just let her continue being whatever type she is?
I'm not being helpful here. I know.

[Joy]

You know, imo some type of Gamma hybrid would be the best type ever. Imagine someone with the strength and boldness and energy of an ESFp and the wisdom and dynamicism and enterprising nature of an ENTj and the non-Fe-ness and "voice of reason" of an INTp... that person would be absolutely unstoppable. Seriously, I don't think it gets any better than that. I'd like to throw ISFj into the mix, but it doesn't seem to fit properly... I guess that's what significant others are for.

[FDG]

You know, imo some type of Gamma hybrid would be the best type ever. Imagine someone with the strength and boldness and energy of an ESFp and the wisdom and dynamicism and enterprising nature of an ENTj and the non-Fe-ness and "voice of reason" of an INTp... that person would be absolutely unstoppable. Seriously, I don't think it gets any better than that. I'd like to throw ISFj into the mix, but it doesn't seem to fit properly... I guess that's what significant others are for.

Or maybe the fligthniess and illogicalness of an ESFp, the lack of concern for his health and rashness of an ENTj, and the lack of energy and lazyness of an INTp, what do you think about this?

[Expat]

I think Kim made as much - or even more - an argument for ENTj as for INTp.

But one major problem with INTp is what Joy always said about needing to be the one who initiates relationships -- that seems to be an anti-INTp manifesto.

The basic problem is as follows. The real Socionics types are based, IMO, (1) on perceptions of reality - dynamic or static - on rationality/irrationality - leading to, or correlating with, extroversion/introversion - so to the temperaments, EJ, EP, IP and IJ - and (2) the functional preferences, leading then to the quadras and types.

These are all internal perceptions, motivations, and priorities. We usually type people through external traits since these provide clues to internal factors, but if for some reason a person has adopted external traits that flatly contradict what is usually expected from someone with certain internal motivations, then it becomes difficult. I think this is what happens in Joy's case.

[UDP]

I think Kim made as much - or even more - an argument for ENTj as for INTp.

But one major problem with INTp is what Joy always said about needing to be the one who initiates relationships -- that seems to be an anti-INTp manifesto.

The basic problem is as follows. The real Socionics types are based, IMO, (1) on perceptions of reality - dynamic or static - on rationality/irrationality - leading to, or correlating with, extroversion/introversion - so to the temperaments, EJ, EP, IP and IJ - and (2) the functional preferences, leading then to the quadras and types.

These are all internal perceptions, motivations, and priorities. We usually type people through external traits since these provide clues to internal factors, but if for some reason a person has adopted external traits that flatly contradict what is usually expected from someone with certain internal motivations, then it becomes difficult. I think this is what happens in Joy's case.

Very important.

There are so many tangents and variations of that as well. When I realized the conditioning I received from certain influences as I was growing up, even though they were alpha influences still, they affected how I interpreted my socionics type, and there was strange relationships between internal motivation and external traits. It wasn't until that was sorted out that I understood more clearly my own type.