I know what you mean (and I agree). Yes, professional/academic.
I know what you mean (and I agree). Yes, professional/academic.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Last night I had an association meeting and stayed two hours more than I had to.Originally Posted by UDP
When I go to board meetings, I'm often thinking "already?" when the meeting's adjourned. I very much enjoy talking to the elected officials and board members in the organization (at least the ones who actually do stuff), too. The more important the meeting is, the more I enjoy it. That's why I've chosen to get more involved in the association, chairing one committee and joining another committee which has a lot of important work to do in the near future. (An ESFj who had been on that committee warned me about it, saying that it's thankless work and very boring. Sounds fun to me.) The more involved I am in the association, the more "me" I feel, very healthy and energized. I've even driven to other parts of the state to attend different chapter meetings in the organization. I'll probably even be staying in a hotel for a night in order to attend the next board meeting. There's some important and exciting things going on in the association.
I know an ESFj who gets involved in various organizations, but unlike me he seems to feel that meetings are just a necessary evil in order to get stuff done. If he is looking forward to a meeting, it's always because he knows there's going to be a lot of drama at that meeting (no, I'm not kidding). He'll even tell others they may want to attend because it's going to be exciting or there's going to be fireworks or whatever. fwiw, the same ESFj is a member of the same association I am... he was the founder and the president of the association for a while... and he very rarely goes to the quarterly board meetings anymore.
I'm trying to imagine how an ESTj would handle meetings... unvalued Fe, unvalued Ni... I really can't imagine that the typical ESTj cares much for meetings. They'd probably rather to doing other things, such as physically working or taking part in recreational activities. If they get paid to go to the meetings, then they'd be willing to do it I'm sure, but they'd probably still find it boring. They may have a difficult time giving it their full attention, and probably wouldn't get too involved. I suppose it would depend how directly the decisions being made there would effect the ESTj, but I still imagine they'd be thinking at least as much about when lunch is as what's being planned for a year from now. He would most likely see what goes on at meetings as something that other people can handle, seeing no reason for it to be necessary for him to be involved. I could be wrong about that though...
Bottom line: ESTjs are tacticians and pay attention to immediate physical events. ENTjs are strategists and care about future non-physical events.
Which type is more interested in travels, journeys, adventures?
I see life as a journey, something to explored and learned from. And I am disappointed with too much hum-drum.
I know that immediately makes it seem N>S, but, consider it beyond stereotypes, if possible.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Literal, figurative, or both?
Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.
I pity your souls
both. Any comments or insights are welcome, on either aspect.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
ENTj are known for their love of traveling.
Delta STs might enjoy adventure, but Delta is the very picture of hum-drum, at least from my perspective. They're the most settled down quadra, overall, especially the rationals.
Hm. Later in life I want to settle down, but I think I am more daring lifestyle wise than the average ESTj I have come across.
Who would relate to this more:
(One of my favorite profiles)"Conceptualizer Director: These individuals consider life to be a process of maximizing achievements versus just attaining accomplishments. These achievements are maximized if they entail deep thought and profound integration of everything that they have learned. A consistent drive for self-mastery allows them to stay focused on their intentions and the more they are challenged the happier they are. Their thinking can be described as analytical, integrative and very complex. They are able to analyze a situation and build a vision that no one else could have even thought of, which allows for a natural long-range visioning to occur. In order to help others understand the vision, they will dress it up with logic because very few are able to just stay with the general concept. It is easy for them to grasp the interrelatedness of everything in their Universe and to see the reasons behind things. Maintaining their independence is important to them, because it allows them their need to be an independent thinker. The need for independence can be a problem in the interpersonal realm as people can misread it for arrogance versus the desire to come up with useful solutions that will help people in the long run. Staying on course of their vision is necessary for their very survival, and they find life dull and draining during the “lows” of that progression."
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I personally don't see being settled down as being related to being well established. The better established I am, the more I will travel.
Bollocks. Half of them are full of drama badly thoughtout power plays and a lot of demands which have no connection to reality. And you'd think that because they are rational they would know when to stop, but instead it just means that they are more determined to annoy you for pathetic and petty gain.Also, INFjs are so easy to get along with - no drama, no additional stress.
Don't kid yourself, this irritates everyone including their duals.
I find a lot of LSEs to be the first ones to say 'I CAN DO IT MYSELF!!' or 'DON'T TELL ME HOW TO DO MY JOB'.ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.
I do that very often, but I'm not LSE.
eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related things
Projects I have seen where this has come into play include:
roofing
car fixing
tree falls in yard and has to be cut up/cleaned up
basement finishing
landscaping work
painting
insulating garage
Really, any kind of big manual labor job.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Opinion vs opinion - fair enough. Perhaps mine should have read "healthy INFjs", but it does not really matter.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I would imagine it is a matter of health - my ex was an extremely unhealthy INFj who fit electric's description, although I've known other (healthier) INFjs who fit what UDP said.Opinion vs opinion - fair enough. Perhaps mine should have read "healthy INFjs", but it does not really matter.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
what's the difference? some of them have a thing with been told what to do.eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related things
Doing that is not a requirement for being a LSE.I do that very often, but I'm not LSE.
Who said anything about people telling them what to do?what's the difference? some of them have a thing with been told what to do.eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related things
Some of them take advice as people telling them how to do their job.Who said anything about people telling them what to do?what's the difference? some of them have a thing with been told what to do.eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related things
Some of them take advice as people telling them how to do their job.Who said anything about people telling them what to do?what's the difference? some of them have a thing with been told what to do.eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related things
Who said anything about giving them advice?
You did.ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.
They like help from other people to do physical labor. The person whose project it is calls the shots, and everyone else does what that person says. That's the etiquette for these things. If it is an ESTj's project, everyone does it the ESTj's way. If it's the ISTp's project, everyone does it the ISTp's way. The ENFps and INFjs seem more open to having other people give recommendations, however even in those cases the final say still goes to the person whose project it is.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Ask for help *doing*, not asking for help on how to do.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Thank you.
I never said anything about them asking for advice.
From what I've seen it's the same thing to them.Ask for help *doing*, not asking for help on how to do.
Asking for help is pretty much saying that they can't handle what they're doing (in their eyes) and from my experiance they don't like the feeling that they don't know what they are doing.Thank you.
I never said anything about them asking for advice.
I have never known an ESTj who didn't want help from friends when doing a large project that involves physical labor, and I've never seem them take offense and assume that helping means that the other person is telling them how to do it, and I've never seen them think that by asking for help they're asking for advice.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Same.
Look, when you see your neighbor and 4 friends/relatives up on his roof laying shingles, there's a pretty damn good chance that he and/or some of his friends/relatives is ESTj. An ENTj would be much more likely to just hire someone to do it, even if the (s)he had 4 friends/relatives that would be willing to to help.
Try and help do what 'their' job is and they'll get annoyed.
Be above of them and try to help them with 'their' job and they'll get annoyed.
Be one of the people running around for them and they;ll be ok, as long as you don't enter 'their' space.
Even when they don't know how to do a job they still won't like it and will spend hours upon hours studying they art of whatever you're trying to teach them just so you can't tell them what to do.
I don't mind asking for help. I The critical thing that I mind is if someone else tries to take "my job" away from me or stop me from doing what I need to do. Being of any help, even fucking up while trying to help, is not something that I mind particularly much. Trying to on a singular occasion do my job for me or to "guide me" even when not necessary can be irritating or can be nice or annoying depending on circumstances. The more proficient I am at a given thing the more protective I get over it. The more personal investment there is, the more protective I get.
If we pick a trivial thing that I can obviously do and someone else does it, it can be embarrassing or sweet, slightly more likely to be annoying. If someone is of actual concrete help in something that would otherwise be a major amount of work, that is highly prized.
Basically though... it's case by case, no fundamental rule. Though I guess the more real help is given the better, the more the "help" is just cover-up for some other agenda, the worse.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
K, fuck it we're talking about different things.
I agree completely, but isn't this a common human trait?
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It certainly could be a trait of more than one type, but I for one love to have someone take over jobs for me if it's something that person could do better. I really need someone to guide me when I'm doing work. And the idea of being "protective" over work is foreign to me. So it isn't universal anyway.I agree completely, but isn't this a common human trait?
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Could be. I don't know. It just seemed to me that there were some who were saying that it wouldn't apply to ESTjs or something.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I think we were talking about different things. I think electric thought help meant like guiding assistance or something, but Joy and I mean help as in grunt work.Could be. I don't know. It just seemed to me that there were some who were saying that it wouldn't apply to ESTjs or something.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Joy was talking about LSEs getting friends to help out and LIEs hiring help, I was going on about LSEs not wanting to feel incompetent and you the difference between LSEs reaction to grunt work and assistance.I think we were talking about different things. I think electric thought help meant like guiding assistance or something, but Joy and I mean help as in grunt work.Could be. I don't know. It just seemed to me that there were some who were saying that it wouldn't apply to ESTjs or something.
It was all just too stupid to continue.
Either way, they're both ok. Grunt work's fine. Someone teaching me a new skill can be better. As long as, you know, the person is actually teaching something and not talking shite about something I know way better in the first place.
It's just if someone implies that s/he's teaching something while infact doing a power play that I feel the urge to defenestrate.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
True. I hate being incompetent. I also know when I am. I think it's a good thing if someone teaches me something new, because that's the only way to get rid of feeling incompetent. I don't have much pretense.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
The main idea behind what I said is that ENTjs are uncomfortable with others (besides their mate or a very close friend/family member) putting a lot of physical effort into doing a favor for them or helping them like that. Even if they're glad it's getting done, they still feel uneasy about accepting that type of assistance. They're much more comfortable just paying someone to do it, if they can. The give and take relationship involved in hiring a professional to provide a service is clearly defined and doesn't leave one to wonder if they somehow owe that person a favor or gratitude or something. It's a business arrangement... as opposed to people taking care of each other.
You have either mistyped ESTps as ESTjs or have done something to make the ESTjs you've known dislike you.Try and help do what 'their' job is and they'll get annoyed.
Be above of them and try to help them with 'their' job and they'll get annoyed.
Be one of the people running around for them and they;ll be ok, as long as you don't enter 'their' space.
Even when they don't know how to do a job they still won't like it and will spend hours upon hours studying they art of whatever you're trying to teach them just so you can't tell them what to do.Or maybe you've just known some ESTjs with problems? In any case, this is not the way the typical, healthy ESTj responds to friends or even coworkers that they get along with (assuming I understand your description of this interaction properly).
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