Bill Cosby

[Rick]

If Cosby is an ESE he should look like an ESE on V.I. Maybe you think that he looks like one, I don't. I think he looks more like an INFp, and that claim is based both on his resemblance with publicly available pictures of INFps on the Internet and his resemblance with my real life friend, who is an INFp. Perhaps someone of you could show us some pictures of more certain ESEs who looks like Cosby.

In what I consider a socionically significant resemblance, Cosby resembles most or all the ESEs on my page at http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/ese.shtml

You have referred numerous times to V.I., but I and probably many other forum members don't actually know what you mean. What exactly are you saying when you say, "Cosby does not look like an ESE on V.I."? To tell the truth, I have no idea what you're talking about, which V.I. you're referring to, what kind of resemblance you consider socionically significant, and what sources you're basing your ideas of type appearance on. Please elaborate.

[Rick]

Bah it appears the forum is more pop-psychology than I expected, w/e I am out of this discussion, the traits bill cosby has doesn't fit the description, plain and simple.... its not a proper usage of the theory....

comparing your friends to movie stars, has no place in a socionics theory discussion.... its about the theory, comparing your friend to movie stars belongs in the pop-pyschology section.

In my opinion your assessment of Cosby was spot-on and accurately reflects the differences between ESE and IEI.

[Phaedrus]

In what I consider a socionically significant resemblance, Cosby resembles most or all the ESEs on my page at http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/ese.shtml

You have referred numerous times to V.I., but I and probably many other forum members don't actually know what you mean. What exactly are you saying when you say, "Cosby does not look like an ESE on V.I."? To tell the truth, I have no idea what you're talking about, which V.I. you're referring to, what kind of resemblance you consider socionically significant, and what sources you're basing your ideas of type appearance on. Please elaborate.

I don't know what you consider to be a "socionically significant resemblance". Often you only mention a person's style or smile. More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type, but is often very difficult to pinpoint exactly which details in a person's appearance give you your overall impression. Ganin has expressed it excellently:

V.I. is a very intuitive method of Type identification. Imagine the equation with hundreds of variables. When everything falls into place - you just know. When something is not quite right - you just know. There is no way to explain this feeling, you have to experience it to understand.

Contrary to what many people on this forum seem to think, Ganin is probably mostly right in his understanding of V.I. -- at least that is my impression after having compare his pictures (including the ones in his V.I. test) with real life people. But of course I am not saying that he is right every time.

You may, or you may not, be right about those ESEs in your gallery. I know too little of them to have a firm opinion. But I would be surprised if all of them turned out to be ESEs.

[Rick]

More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type,

Then you belong to a different school of socionics than I. I don't appeal to facial structure at all. Taking this road leads to typings that violate actual intertype interaction (e.g. Lucas = LII and Spielberg = IEE, yet they are close friends and buddies).

V.I. is a very intuitive method of Type identification. Imagine the equation with hundreds of variables. When everything falls into place - you just know. When something is not quite right - you just know. There is no way to explain this feeling, you have to experience it to understand.

This approach of "just knowing" and relying on intuitive visual type identification has been rejected by mainstream socionics because it does not allow for constructive discussion. It is essentially what my first teacher taught me, but my experience over several years convinced me that my teacher had made consistent typing errors that messed up the relationship picture, and I eventually rejected the "intuitive" approach.

Now, I instead look at what the person is telling us with his facial expressions, what states of minds he conveys with the way he holds himself, the looks in his eyes, and his overall appearance. While I have a large baggage of images in my memory bank that help produce "intuitive" guesses, I take them seriously only if I can say exactly what signals the person is sending produce the impression I am getting. And even this is valid only if the impressions I formulate about a person's personality actually match what other people have said who knew the person.

[Phaedrus]

More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type,

Then you belong to a different school of socionics than I. I don't appeal to facial structure at all.

And what is your opinion on body types? If I remember correctly you seemed to take that into consideration in another thread not too long ago.

[Rick]

More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type,

Then you belong to a different school of socionics than I. I don't appeal to facial structure at all.

And what is your opinion on body types? If I remember correctly you seemed to take that into consideration in another thread not too long ago.

In my practice the correlation between socionic types and body types is quite small. However, there are very clear differences in the way a thin SLE holds his body and a EII holds his similarly thin body. Sometimes the difference is so great that it seems that the body itself is different, perhaps as a result of different muscle tone, or different style of dress, or different habitual expressions. But it is extremely difficult to quantify any innate body differences, if there are any.

[FDG]

More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type,

Then you belong to a different school of socionics than I. I don't appeal to facial structure at all.

And what is your opinion on body types? If I remember correctly you seemed to take that into consideration in another thread not too long ago.

In my practice the correlation between socionic types and body types is quite small. However, there are very clear differences in the way a thin SLE holds his body and a EII holds his similarly thin body.

Maybe I'm a bit off, but I think all the people of the same type invariably have the same kind of body movements. I only have noticed this in my type for now, but it's actually creepy.

[Kristiina]

More important is of course a person's facial structure and general body type,

Then you belong to a different school of socionics than I. I don't appeal to facial structure at all.

And what is your opinion on body types? If I remember correctly you seemed to take that into consideration in another thread not too long ago.

In my practice the correlation between socionic types and body types is quite small. However, there are very clear differences in the way a thin SLE holds his body and a EII holds his similarly thin body. Sometimes the difference is so great that it seems that the body itself is different, perhaps as a result of different muscle tone, or different style of dress, or different habitual expressions. But it is extremely difficult to quantify any innate body differences, if there are any.

It seems I give my personal evaluation to everything that I see and experience. For me body type is not % of fat and muscle tone. It's exactly the way a person holds their body. In that way, there is clear correlation between temperaments (except a few types, that have special body language) and body movement/body relaxation/etc.

This kind of VI'ing is full of exceptions. A thin and short ISTj is physically more similar to INFj than other ISTjs. A very resolute INTp resembles ENTps more than he does any typical person of the IP temperament. It took a year before I started recognizing ISTjs that are not thin and resolute but in stead sturdy-looking and quietly sure of their opinions.

Bill Cosby shows clear EJ/EP body language compared to the people I have typed. In general seems most similar to my ESTj dad.

[Phaedrus]

At this very moment, a very clear example of an INTj -- both in body type and general V.I. outlook -- is playing in the Snooker UK Championship's final, which can be seen live on TV at the time of my writing this post (at least by those who have access to Eurosport). I am of course thinking of Peter Ebdon.

http://www.eurosport.com/snooker/

Can we agree that Peter Ebdon really does look like a clear-cut INTj? And that he does not look like an INTp, for example? In my opinion we can say, almost beyond reasonable doubt, that Ebdon must be an INTj based only on V.I., body type, and general appearance.

[Gilly]

Alpha NT, at least. I'd need a nice big frontal shot to determine temperment for sure, but his general look, posture, and demeanor suggest Alpha NT.

From this expression, I would say INTj>ENTp:

[Phaedrus]

Alpha NT, at least. I'd need a nice big frontal shot to determine temperment for sure, but his general look, posture, and demeanor suggest Alpha NT.

From this expression, I would say INTj>ENTp:

Good. I don't know where to find a video where he can be seen in action, but there probably is somewhere on the Internet. Maybe you have some other TV channel than Eurosport where you can watch him? It is impossible for me to see him as an ENTp. He strikes me as so overwhelmingly INTj than almost any other type is out of the question.

[Gilly]

The only billiards at all I can find is on ESPN, and it's not snooker. Plus it's a women's tournament. Oh well. I'll check youtube.

[Gilly]

Yep. Definitely INTj.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V_hvvNKOEtA

[Gilly]

If you like snooker, watch that video. It's absolutely rediculous.

[Rick]

Here's a video where he talks a little:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdKe9ANJsKk
I agree that he "can't" be ILI. But I don't see anything decisive in his "body type, V.I., or general appearance" to suggest LII beyond a doubt. My first choice is actually LSE, second SLI and third LII.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

Peter is an extremely focused individual and has been criticised for his energetic celebrations after winning matches. He has gathered a lot of public support as a result of these demonstrations of emotion - a rare attribute in the game's top ranking players. However, since one particularly exuberant outburst [2] - after potting the match ball, he repeatedly fisted the air and screamed "Come on!" at the top of his voice

[Gilly]

That says absolutely nothing relavent to his Socionics type; indeed, the only thing it says at ALL is that he's high-strung, which can definitely be true of INTjs.

[Phaedrus]

Yep. Definitely INTj.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V_hvvNKOEtA

Finally some "scientific" progress, then ...

Peter Ebdon's facial structure and facial expressions are strikingly similar to my own father's. They also seem to have the same body type. And, as I have said many times on this forum, I am fully convinced that my father is both an INTj and an INTJ.

[Rick]

That says absolutely nothing relavent to his Socionics type; indeed, the only thing it says at ALL is that he's high-strung, which can definitely be true of INTjs.

Actually, I also noted in the video his active head movements while being interviewed and his open expressions and speaking style, as well as how he gently but confidently touched the other player while he was talking. So I took the phrase "his energetic celebrations after winning matches" in the context of his behavior during the interview, which made him seem like an energetic and open guy. Of course, that doesn't rule out LII for me, but it makes it less likely.

If I were to choose an unambiguous example of an LII, I would say David Byrne of the Talking Heads. I recently added him to my collection. He is also a perfect example of the kind of physical shyness and restraint you observe in LIIs and EIIs.

[Gilly]

If I were to choose an unambiguous example of an LII, I would say David Byrne of the Talking Heads. I recently added him to my collection. He is also a perfect example of the kind of physical shyness and restraint you observe in LIIs and EIIs.

I would say that physical restraint of the kind you mention is more typical of types with paranoid Si.

I don't know anything about Byrne aside from the fact that all of my Alpha friends seem to like the Talking Heads, but he's obvously the same type as Wittgenstein IMO, and he looks more stereotypically ILI than LII, at least to me: he appears to have the typical wide eyed, empty stare that I associate with Gamma NTs; Alpha NTs tend to look more "switched on," as opposed to "spaced out," IME.

[Gilly]

Upon further consideration, I think you are right about both Byrne and Wittgenstein.

[Ms. Kensington]

yeah i agree what you said about spaced out and switched on, gilly.

Rick, i was a little mystified by your ESE celebrities page? You typed tom cruise's "couch incident"? This is really bad use of Fe if it is Fe imo lol. Really unlike Roberto Benigni's "walking over seats in the shrine auditorium for the oscars" hahaha though he's ENTp. Adrien Brody? i will think about these.

I saw Bill Cosby typed as ENTp somewhere and i was also surprsied; then I remembered how he has been written about as being cold relationship wise. Don't have an opinion myself though.

[Phaedrus]

If I were to choose an unambiguous example of an LII, I would say David Byrne of the Talking Heads. I recently added him to my collection. He is also a perfect example of the kind of physical shyness and restraint you observe in LIIs and EIIs.

David Byrne is a new encounter for me, so I cannot say much about him. But both his music and his lyrics seems to be an interesting subject for further investigations. Maybe I'll do that some day.

I am not sure what to think about Byrne's type based on V.I. I can see the similarity with Wittgenstein, whose type I am also unsure of. In the first picture of Byrne on your site he is resemblant of another real life LII I know, but on the other pictures I am probably leaning more towards ILI.

Maybe Beckett is similar to Wittgenstein, but as you know, I think that you have mistyped Beckett, so if they are the same type I would vote for ILI, based on what I now know about them.

Another little detail: You said that your first choice for Peter Ebdon was LSE. Do you think that Ebdon looks similar to another well-known snooker player -- Steve Davis?

http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk...profile006.htm

I know almost nothing about Davis as a person. I have only seen him in action at the snooker table on Eurosport, but based on V.I. only, I would think that he might be an LSE.

[aestrivex]

i have nothing real to contribute, but, boy does david byrne's music suck.

[Rick]

Rick, i was a little mystified by your ESE celebrities page? You typed tom cruise's "couch incident"? This is really bad use of Fe if it is Fe imo lol. Really unlike Roberto Benigni's "walking over seats in the shrine auditorium for the oscars" hahaha though he's ENTp. Adrien Brody? i will think about these.

I have added a few videos to my ESE page with each of these people.

i have nothing real to contribute, but, boy does david byrne's music suck.

I can't stand it either .
Wanna see an amusing contrast of rational and irrational behavior (posture, speech, mannerisms)?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+Metheny&hl=en
(minutes 11:00 to 14:00) David Byrne interviews Pat Metheny.

[Rick]

Another little detail: You said that your first choice for Peter Ebdon was LSE. Do you think that Ebdon looks similar to another well-known snooker player -- Steve Davis?

http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk...profile006.htm

I know almost nothing about Davis as a person. I have only seen him in action at the snooker table on Eurosport, but based on V.I. only, I would think that he might be an LSE.

I wasn't able to find enough images or any videos of him in the few minutes I looked, so I don't have a strong opinion, but I think he could be LSE.

[olduser]

i don't want to say it but metheny's music is sort of faggy.

and pat metheny says 'like' too often.

[Phaedrus]

Another little detail: You said that your first choice for Peter Ebdon was LSE. Do you think that Ebdon looks similar to another well-known snooker player -- Steve Davis?

http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk...profile006.htm

I know almost nothing about Davis as a person. I have only seen him in action at the snooker table on Eurosport, but based on V.I. only, I would think that he might be an LSE.

I wasn't able to find enough images or any videos of him in the few minutes I looked, so I don't have a strong opinion, but I think he could be LSE.

Okay. But my point was: Is your first V.I. impression that they would likely be the same type, or is it that they are most likely different types (if we disregard the general statistical probabilities here)?

[Rick]

Another little detail: You said that your first choice for Peter Ebdon was LSE. Do you think that Ebdon looks similar to another well-known snooker player -- Steve Davis?

http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk...profile006.htm

I know almost nothing about Davis as a person. I have only seen him in action at the snooker table on Eurosport, but based on V.I. only, I would think that he might be an LSE.

I wasn't able to find enough images or any videos of him in the few minutes I looked, so I don't have a strong opinion, but I think he could be LSE.

Okay. But my point was: Is your first V.I. impression that they would likely be the same type, or is it that they are most likely different types (if we disregard the general statistical probabilities here)?

That's not how I work, so I can't say. I don't look for "first V.I. impressions" and I don't really see the degree of physical similarity or difference to other people I've typed unless it's very obvious, and even physical similarity often doesn't translate into personality and socionic similarities. I just look for clues about what the person is like and what their most typical behavior styles are.

[Phaedrus]

Wanna see an amusing contrast of rational and irrational behavior (posture, speech, mannerisms)?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+Metheny&hl=en
(minutes 11:00 to 14:00) David Byrne interviews Pat Metheny.

After having seen that interview I am more inclined to agree. It is probably a good example of rational and irrational behaviour. That Metheny is an irrational type is impossible to doubt in my opinion. I am not 100 % sure of Byrne, but now he seems more LII than ILI, I think.

[Phaedrus]

@ Rick

One of the celebrities in your ESE gallery immediately struck me as an odd figure -- Adrien Brody. I know nothing about him, but my very first impression of him was that he looks much more like an ENXp than an ESE. After having seen and heard him in that video interview with Charlie Rose that impression is reinforced. It is now very difficult for me to see him as an ESE.

A would say that a strong candidate type for Brody is IEE. On V.I. I think he could fit the slim type of ENFp, which Cher and Keanu Reeves probably are examples of.

ENFps are normally either tall and often quiet even though they are extrovert or short and full figured. The latter are more movable and energetic and their gait is quick and erratic. ENFps often walk with their feet apart. Slim ENFps often have a crafty look in their eyes. Sometimes, when they are inactive, their faces can have an astonished look about them.

I'm not sure yet, but I can see visual and behaviourial similarities between Brody and a real life, 100 % certain, female IEE of the "Cher" type, whom I have been working with.

[Phaedrus]

Here's a perfect example of an IEI comedian/showman:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+keillor&hl=en
(start at 35:00)
It's not hard to see the difference between Keillor and someone like Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby displays in his shows with direct external emotional expression, Keillor with his slow, thoughtful, and extremely witty and zany imagination.

I agree with you that Keillor and Cosby are different, and I can't say that Keillor can't be an IEI.

I want to take this statement back. I didn't follow your instructions, Rick, and confused Keillor with the first guy in that video, so what I said is totally irrelevant.

Now, after having seen the real Keillor in action, I can't say that he and Cosby are strikingly similar on V.I., but I can see some rather clear similarities in their appearance and ways of talking. I would say that the "less-is-more technique", which Keillor explains in that interview, is also something that Cosby has used on many occasions (and is using in the "breakfast" video). Assuming that Keillor really is an IEI (I have no firm opinion on that yet), I would say that Cosby is most likely either an IEI too, or (maybe) an IEE, which seems to be a common impression of him. The likelihood for Cosby being an ESE has decreased even more now, in my opinion.

[Rocky]

Rick, i was a little mystified by your ESE celebrities page? You typed tom cruise's "couch incident"? This is really bad use of Fe if it is Fe imo lol. Really unlike Roberto Benigni's "walking over seats in the shrine auditorium for the oscars" hahaha though he's ENTp. Adrien Brody? i will think about these.

I have added a few videos to my ESE page with each of these people.

The thing about your ESE page is abuse of typing people based off of being, "Happy and smiling and friendly", which of course is obsurd. I think you'll end up with people of all different types if you classify them by that (which, I think you do). The only one there who seems to have any substantial amount of true Fe is Tom Cruise (well, of the guys that I know of).

[mustachio]

i think it is more probable that Bill Cosby is ESE rather than IEI for the following reasons:

first of all his humour is always PC. it's never gross or sexual. always family oriented. in the eighties, he even criticised guys like Eddie Murphy and Richard Prior for making lewd, racy jokes. now according to Rick's site, he couldn't possibly be a member of the Beta quadra:

Types from the Beta Quadra are drawn to hierarchical structures that increase their personal power. They like to see convictions and beliefs materialized physically in the real world. They are often starkly blunt in their views and like "strong" humor.

recently, Bill made some pretty controversial remarks about the situation of african-americans:

The entertainer has been at the center of a racially charged controversy since May when he ridiculed the poor grammar of some blacks. "I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said in Washington, D.C. on May 17, at an event marking the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation ruling.
{...}
"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It's cursing and calling each other '******' as they're walking up and down the street. They think they hip -- can't read, can't write -- 50 percent of them," he said.
{...}
Cosby stressed the importance of education and proper parenting.

"The more you invest in that child, the more you are not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word '******.' This is an accepted word. You are so hip with '******,' but you can't even spell it," an impassioned Cosby lamented

now, let's take an excerpt from Ganin's site explaining the behaviour of an ESFj:

ESFjs also can show a wide range of emotions during conversation. They have very characteristic negative emotions, periodically showing indignation which can flare up without warning and which can die down just as quickly. Their negative behaviour often cannot be explained logically as they can create a drama from something that may seem unimportant. During conversation ESFjs pay close attention to the ethics and good behaviour of others. They like to give ethical evaluations and analyses on who behaved well and who did not. They also watch that the norms of politeness are obeyed. ESFjs react negatively to people who do not obey ethical norms. This is why others can sometimes consider them to be confrontational and difficult to live with. Many people believe ESFjs could be very demanding and tactless.

i'd say Cosby's recent remarks whether true or not represent a clearer expression of Fe coupled with introverted sensing. also, Cosby compares his view of righteous behaviour (from the 50's) to what's gooing on at the moment. he's more rational than irrational at that point. from Rick's:

attention focused on correct actions and emotions (logic and ethics), which produce certain states of mind and body (intuition and sensing)

Cosby believes that if the youth of today correct themselves and their language, with the help of their parents, they could achieve higher grades gain more diplomas thus eliminating the cycle of cime and poverty they mire themselves in. so, in my humble opinion, he's more ESE than anything else. i also think that if you want to type a person correctly, you have to judge his actions accordingly before ever even thinking of V.I. (if it's possible and in this case it is).

[Slacker]

I agree 100% Mustachio - his image has always been that of the nurturer. Never never never lewd and he has made a big issue of that. Alpha > Beta. He's also an overachiever and had very high expectations of his children in that regard too.

[Rocky]

i think it is more probable that Bill Cosby is ESE rather than IEI for the following reasons:

first of all his humour is always PC. it's never gross or sexual. always family oriented. in the eighties, he even criticised guys like Eddie Murphy and Richard Prior for making lewd, racy jokes. now according to Rick's site, he couldn't possibly be a member of the Beta quadra:

That's true but I don't think that's type related... more of personal values.

The entertainer has been at the center of a racially charged controversy since May when he ridiculed the poor grammar of some blacks. "I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said in Washington, D.C. on May 17, at an event marking the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation ruling.
{...}
"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It's cursing and calling each other '******' as they're walking up and down the street. They think they hip -- can't read, can't write -- 50 percent of them," he said.
{...}
Cosby stressed the importance of education and proper parenting.

"The more you invest in that child, the more you are not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word '******.' This is an accepted word. You are so hip with '******,' but you can't even spell it," an impassioned Cosby lamented

Hilarious! Bill Cosby is now my nigga, lol.

[Rick]

A would say that a strong candidate type for Brody is IEE. On V.I. I think he could fit the slim type of ENFp, which Cher and Keanu Reeves probably are examples of.

I can't comment on this, really, since I don't consider either Keanu Reeves or Cher IEEs. Function-wise, I can't see how that would fit.

The thing about your ESE page is abuse of typing people based off of being, "Happy and smiling and friendly", which of course is obsurd. I think you'll end up with people of all different types if you classify them by that (which, I think you do). The only one there who seems to have any substantial amount of true Fe is Tom Cruise (well, of the guys that I know of).

I accept the criticism; I might be better at this point not putting any comments there, or only putting full-length comments, because some people misunderstand me to be saying that "since so-and-so is happy and smiling and friendly, he is ESE." Those are simply the most obvious observations about a person and are not really how I arrived at the type in the first place. I will elaborate on my typing process eventually and try to explain the intermediate steps and logic.

I also know by now that you and I have quite different ideas about what and are, so I am not surprised that you disagree.

[mustachio]

i think it is more probable that Bill Cosby is ESE rather than IEI for the following reasons:

first of all his humour is always PC. it's never gross or sexual. always family oriented. in the eighties, he even criticised guys like Eddie Murphy and Richard Prior for making lewd, racy jokes. now according to Rick's site, he couldn't possibly be a member of the Beta quadra:

That's true but I don't think that's type related... more of personal values.

The entertainer has been at the center of a racially charged controversy since May when he ridiculed the poor grammar of some blacks. "I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said in Washington, D.C. on May 17, at an event marking the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation ruling.
{...}
"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It's cursing and calling each other '******' as they're walking up and down the street. They think they hip -- can't read, can't write -- 50 percent of them," he said.
{...}
Cosby stressed the importance of education and proper parenting.

"The more you invest in that child, the more you are not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word '******.' This is an accepted word. You are so hip with '******,' but you can't even spell it," an impassioned Cosby lamented

Hilarious! Bill Cosby is now my nigga, lol.

it's not just about personal values. i've noticed that even if one ESFj tells lewd jokes in private, that individual will always strive to appear classy in public. he/she might say horrendous things but never act out on them. public image is important to ESE. Bill Cosby's rant almost sounds like an accusation of improper table manners on a US national scale.

[Gilly]

Keanu Reeves is a good example of an (I)LE.

[Phaedrus]

A would say that a strong candidate type for Brody is IEE. On V.I. I think he could fit the slim type of ENFp, which Cher and Keanu Reeves probably are examples of.

I can't comment on this, really, since I don't consider either Keanu Reeves or Cher IEEs. Function-wise, I can't see how that would fit.

It doesn't really matter whether Cher and/or Reeves are IEEs or not, as long as you know which type of IEE I have in mind. Maybe Reeves is an ILE as Gilligan is suggesting. As I said, my first impression of Brody was ENXp, because I sometimes have some trouble differentiating the slim type of ENFp from an ENTp.

Here are some pictures of the real life, 100 % certain, slim type of IEE I was referring to:

http://images.google.se/images?q=kir...e=UTF-8&tab=wi

http://www.ppaledardagar.stockholm.s...h.aspx?id=2135

http://www.sverigesinformationsforen..._view.aspx?370

http://www.personalvetarna.com/pvd2005/talare.htm

[Gilly]

Not so sure that's an ENFp either...