Two questions

[Tanzhe]

At the moment, I am looking through INTj type descriptions. I have two questions:

1. socionics.org is a Russian site. Should I trust the translations of the INTj descriptions? I ask this because English is a fickle language, and subtle wording can make a type sound completely different. Also, I know that going into too much detail on type descriptions can make one lose faith in their typing - more general descriptions are more applicable.

2. In the type descriptions, how accurate should they be? Socionics (English descriptions) by Sergei Ganin are approximately 80%, maybe more. Translated Russian descriptions seem to stress too much the seriousness/coldness of the INTj.

These two questions stem from the fact that, the more detailed type descriptions there are, the more ambiguous your own type is. My post 'Need help in defining type' has had virtually everyone identify me as an INTj. But there is always, in the back of my mind, a small suspicion that seems to grow now that I look into Babel Fish translations of socionics.org. In essence, I am asking how accurate type descriptions should be.

[CuriousSoul]

At the moment, I am looking through INTj type descriptions. I have two questions:

1. socionics.org is a Russian site. Should I trust the translations of the INTj descriptions? I ask this because English is a fickle language, and subtle wording can make a type sound completely different. Also, I know that going into too much detail on type descriptions can make one lose faith in their typing - more general descriptions are more applicable.

Many type descriptions do seem to be written with a sparkle in the eye - as illustrations of the possible peculiarities of that type rather than as an accurate guide to the average behaviour of people with the type. The Altavista translations are not always that good but I think it also has much to do with cultural differences. Russians are used to more colourful, even rough language, and Socionics is still more like a dear hobby than a corporate tool that the MBTI has to some extent become in the west. Thus Russians are able to write descriptions that might land you a lawsuit for defamation in America.

2. In the type descriptions, how accurate should they be? Socionics (English descriptions) by Sergei Ganin are approximately 80%, maybe more. Translated Russian descriptions seem to stress too much the seriousness/coldness of the INTj.

I quite agree with you that the Socionics.com Psychological type profiles, originally written by Victor Gulenko, are probably the best at least when it comes to recognizing other people's types, and the Psychological type profiles by function, possibly written by Sergei Ganin, are not too bad either. Some of the other descriptions are pretty good whereas others seem to either be too strictly faithful to the theory, your behaviour as dictated by your eight functions, or often just wide of the mark - not all INFPs are no-good bohemian drunkards.

INTJs do, in my opinion, often appear quite serious or cold to the outside but of course there is a lot of personal variation. Russians may also stress this because the Russian culture, which many socionists seem to classify as an INFP "ethnotype", is more openly emotional than the American ENTJ culture and the even less emotional English ESTJ culture, and thus the coldness of INTJs would seem more atypical in the Russian cultural context.

These two questions stem from the fact that, the more detailed type descriptions there are, the more ambiguous your own type is. My post 'Need help in defining type' has had virtually everyone identify me as an INTj. But there is always, in the back of my mind, a small suspicion that seems to grow now that I look into Babel Fish translations of socionics.org. In essence, I am asking how accurate type descriptions should be.

I think it is essential to remember that the type descriptions are just that - attempts at descriping some commonalities between representatives of the type. What defines your type according to Socionics is your Type of Information Metabolism and the intertype relations that follow from it. The intertype relations are not always easy to recognize, the type is just one aspect that influences relations and Sergei Ganin may have cut rather too many corners in his strive for clarity, but in the main I nevertheless agree with him: if the intertype relations do not fit make sure that you have got both your own and the other party's type right.

How can a person confirm his or her type?

Take the MBTI test from a qualified practitioner.......Not really

STTM (Socionics Type Theoretical Modelling) normally provides enough clues to what one's type is. The only drawback here is that one has to know STTM in order to use it, and this is something that one cannot just learn over night.

An alternative method is also available and suitable for the beginners. This method operates on the equation: A + B = C, where A is a person with the type to be confirmed, B is a person with known type and C is the known intertype relation between A and B.

For example, person A is INTx (either INTp or INTj), person B is ESFj and the relation C between A and B is Conflicting Relation. This type of relation can only exist between ESFj and INTp, indicating that person A is INTp. This is true only if the type of person B is irrefutably known. So how do you know for sure if B is a genuine ESFj? The truth is that you don't, you assume this. So, in order to get reliable results, the above formula should be applied to more than one person with known type to compare the results.

The Intertype relations formula is a hard bone of Socionics. A + B always equals C. If it equals D, then either A or B, or both are incorrect. It is impossible to fool this formula. If you put a cat and a mouse in a cage together, and the mouse will pretend to be a cat, sooner or later the cat will eat the mouse. Even if the cat is vegetarian, he will always be tempted and the mouse will always feel this. So if anyone says that they can survive anybody, it could be true, but at what cost?
http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa130303.htm

So if the intertype relations fit then you have got your type right, and if the type descriptions seem silly or plain wrong, you have reached a higher level of consciousness and it is time for you to write better type descriptions!
And let us criticize them. :wink:

[Tanzhe]

Type of Information Metabolism (TIM)? What is that?

if the type descriptions seem silly or plain wrong, you have reached a higher level of consciousness and it is time for you to write better type descriptions!
And let us criticize them.

I'm thinking of (assuming that my type is INTj) of writing an 'INTj uncovered' of my own, based on input from the Socionics descriptions and my own personal experience.

[CuriousSoul]

Type of Information Metabolism (TIM)? What is that?

I'm thinking of (assuming that my type is INTj) of writing an 'INTj uncovered' of my own, based on input from the Socionics descriptions and my own personal experience.

Type of Information Metabolism (TIM) is the fancy pseudo-scientific name for Socionics types preferred by many socionists.

According to Augustinaviciute, humans can be classified in terms of types of information processing, or "information metabolism". Psychological features such as attention, interests, memory and motivation are components of this theory of information metabolism. This theory of information metabolism is built upon an analogy to energy metabolism. According to this analogy, information that arrives as signals from outside an organism are available for information metabolism just as food is available for energy metabolism. The brain is the key information metabolism system. The brain and information metabolism deal with a two-way flow of signals: metabolism of input signals results in the production of output. Just as enzymes can constructively interact only with structurally specific substrate molecules, brains can only constructively metabolize information that is correctly "tuned" to the brain. By assigning "energy values" to the various psychological components of information metabolism, Augustinaviciute created a mathematical theory of thinking.

In this theory of information metabolism there are 16 personality types. Each personality type exists within a "diad" with one other type. The theory also includes "quadra", groups of four personality types that are important for the dynamics of small groups. In turn, quadras can join to form "SOCIONs" of 16 personality types.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...n%20metabolism

It would probably be much easier to learn about socionics by meeting "in flesh". Often what appears awfully complicated in theory actually works out fairly simply in real life. Once you have typed few people of every type it gets much easier to see the type-related similiarities between, let us say, an eighty year old granny and a ten year old boy. Now we just have to try to struggle on...

[Tanzhe]

Some questions for the makeshift 'INTj uncovered':

1. How sensitive are INTjs? I'm thinking more of bullying in schools as an example - bullying seems to target an INTJ's Si, the place of least resistance, and their hidden agenda. INTjs also seem to want a cheerful, happy surrounding.

2. How empathic are INTjs? Their Ne means that they can see what others feel, even if they cannot suffer with them. Their Te also means that they tend to help others more than themselves.

3. How assertive are INTjs? They have the qualities of coldness and seriousness, but are introverted.

4. Just how uncomfortable are INTjs are at expressing emotion? Is it that, due to the Ti-Fe, they periodically lose control and regret it later?

[MysticSonic]

1. How sensitive are INTjs? I'm thinking more of bullying in schools as an example - bullying seems to target an INTJ's Si, the place of least resistance, and their hidden agenda. INTjs also seem to want a cheerful, happy surrounding.

Their point of least resistance is Se, and their hidden agenda is Si

Coming purely from a functional analysis point of view, it seems that their ability to assert themselves would be exceptionally weak, as their PoLR is volitional sensing, Se. Their desire to be in a 'cheerful and happy surrounding' seems to be a combination of both their PoLR, as they'd very much like to stay out of circumstances which may call upon it's use, and the hidden agenda, as it is a desire to have their sensory perceptions stimulated in such a way that they do not experience any sort of discomfort.


I can't really answer your other questions...[/b]

[Tanzhe]

1. How sensitive are INTjs? I'm thinking more of bullying in schools as an example - bullying seems to target an INTJ's Si, the place of least resistance, and their hidden agenda. INTjs also seem to want a cheerful, happy surrounding.

2. How empathic are INTjs? Their Ne means that they can see what others feel, even if they cannot suffer with them. Their Te also means that they tend to help others more than themselves.

3. How assertive are INTjs? They have the qualities of coldness and seriousness, but are introverted.

4. Just how uncomfortable are INTjs are at expressing emotion? Is it that, due to the Ti-Fe, they periodically lose control and regret it later?

Addition:

5. How susceptible to depression/sadness/feeling low are INTjs?

[metaiwan]

1. How sensitive are INTjs? I'm thinking more of bullying in schools as an example - bullying seems to target an INTJ's Si, the place of least resistance, and their hidden agenda. INTjs also seem to want a cheerful, happy surrounding.

2. How empathic are INTjs? Their Ne means that they can see what others feel, even if they cannot suffer with them. Their Te also means that they tend to help others more than themselves.

3. How assertive are INTjs? They have the qualities of coldness and seriousness, but are introverted.

4. Just how uncomfortable are INTjs are at expressing emotion? Is it that, due to the Ti-Fe, they periodically lose control and regret it later?

Addition:

5. How susceptible to depression/sadness/feeling low are INTjs?

5. It's really hard to say and that may be one of the things that apply to all persons, just not one type. However, you could generalize and say certain types are more prone to certain substance abuses(like eneagram). Hopefully, of course this would be backed up by statistical data. Actually, statistical data is BADLY needed by socionics to be accepted and someone should accept this challange.

1. INTj can be sensitive to the criticism around them. However, they ignore criticism from people whom they believe to not be smart or 'below' them. From someone close however, even a comment not meant to be critical can initial a self reavalutation about themselves. But mostly they hold their dear values strongly with excellent logic backing them up and non-important ideas and opinions they can sway easily if their Ti and Ne let them.

2. I would say INTjs are less empathetic than most, partly because they want to hide their emotions. Around an emotional person(crying) they will resist the urge to cry but if they can see the other person is really hurting they will cry to(case in point, an ex girlfriend came over to my house to take a pregnancy test, she came back from the bathroom crying and saying she didnt' want to be alone and and I couldn't hlep but start bawling. it wasn't my kid tho).

4.
INTj don't feel uncomfortable expressing emotion, it's just they are not inclined to .It depends on what kind of energy, for instance angry yelling will make them 'solid' and not get involved and act sort of weak, , but emotion they like and will expresss it if there is an partner around.

[Tanzhe]

INTj don't feel uncomfortable expressing emotion, it's just they are not inclined to .It depends on what kind of energy, for instance angry yelling will make them 'solid' and not get involved and act sort of weak, , but emotion they like and will expresss it if there is an partner around.

So, INTjs can see the other side of an argument (Ne) but suppress any like emotions (Ti)?


I would also like to know about how an INTj may be mistaken for an INFj. The INFj's seventh function is as follows:

6) Types, having the 7th Fe (ISFJ, INFJ), have own model when emotions must be shown. They may even appear very cold.
For example, when I asked one INFJ girl to read more loudly and empathically her novel, she refused it.

This is mainly for my curiousity, but, when one looks closely, then one sees similarities because both types seem to suppress emotions. Then again, do INTjs suppress and control their emotions whilst INFjs do not need any such control?

[metaiwan]

INFjs are more comfortable around people they know while INTjs are the other way around.

[Creepy-]

When in a heated argument is an INFJ more likely to explode...while an INTJ is likely to control their emotions better?

[discourse]

INFj doesn't show its emotions, INFj shows its feelings. I think, these are two different things: emotions and feelings. Emotions are: joy, happiness, sadness. Feelings are what we like or don't like in others. INFj shows feelings, says i am proud of you or controvercially may say like i am not sadisfied with you.May show with facial expressions what he thinks of others, may use it to controll others behaviour. These two: feelings and emotions, should mean different things.

I haven't seen much INTjs in my life. I haven't had any chanche to pay attention to their behaviour. But I do think that INTj want's to controll also others behaviour. But not with tones of voice or with moving facial expressions showing if he likes or dislikes others, but by justicefull attitude on others. I think INTj also may have high standards on auner, justice, trust and on other phylosophical ideas. But these are only my speculations. Only real INTj knows what it means to be INTj.

[MysticSonic]

As to how to tell the difference between an INTJ and a INFJ ask them how they stand on a "harsh" topic (ie capital punishment). The INTJ would be waaaay more receptive to the idea than the INFJ.

What he said.

[CuriousSoul]

I am not quite convinced by this INTJ or INFJ test. I remember a conversation I had about this for almost ten years ago and the opinion of my INTJ friend was that capital punishment is not acceptable because of the risk of executing innocents and the irreversible nature of the punishment. Fairly standard INTJ reasoning though.

[MysticSonic]

INTJs most certainly can swing either way, but INFJs most likely will NOT swing to the polarity that violates some sort of ethical rights.

[Creepy-]

INTJs most certainly can swing either way -snipped-

I'm inclined to agree. Robespierre was an INTJ.