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    Default Jungians

    A thread about Jungians and Jungian Psychology.




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    Edward Edinger

    On Depth Psychology and Religion


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    I remember watching this a few years ago during my attempt to identify his MBTI type:

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    Can we get a definition?

    I'm sort of thinking that seeing lives a meta narrative in a society takes you a long way without actually touching the subject itself.

    Sorry, if this feel derailing but for instance, this communicates a lot of similar type of message without mentioning Jung (with some extra broadness).




    So, continuing with my meta Jungian ways. How you think German as a language affected Jung? There seems to be peculiar forms of grammatical genders and so on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    Can we get a definition?
    Jungian Psychology : Analytical Psychology /

     


    These are not exact definitions but general overviews of Jung's fundamental concepts...


    Core Concepts of Jungian Psychology

    Carl Jung was a prolific writer with an expansive collection of theories that made up his Analytical Psychology. However, below are some fundamental concepts that are central to the study of Jungian psychology:

    Jung’s model of the psyche


    Jung posited that there are three components that make up the human psyche:


    • The ego
    • The personal unconscious
    • The collective unconscious


    The ego represents the conscious mind that contains the awareness of existing and the sense of personal identity. This is where your personality exists and where your thoughts, intuitions, feelings and sensations are organized. It’s the door between the inner and outer worlds of the psyche.

    The personal unconscious is made up of the memories that are subliminal, forgotten and/or repressed. Some of the personal unconscious can be recalled to the conscious mind. Jung believed that for individuation to occur, the personal unconscious and the conscious ego have to be fully integrated.

    The collective unconscious, also known as the transpersonal unconscious, is one of Jung’s more unique and controversial additions to personality theory. The idea proposes that there is a universal version of the personal unconscious, which is shared with all other members of the human species. These shared ancestral memories, born from evolution, are called archetypes by Jung and are represented by universal themes that appear in various cultures.

    Some of these innate characteristics include being scared of the dark or spiders, for example. However, Jung posited that more than these isolated examples, archetypes have developed into separate subsystems of the personality through ancestral memories and images.

    Individuation

    According to the American Psychological Association, individuation is “the gradual development of a unified, integrated personality that incorporates greater and greater amounts of the unconscious, both personal and collective, and resolves any conflicts that exist, such as those between introverted and extraverted tendencies.”

    In essence, the therapeutic goal of individuation within analytical psychology is the process through which a person becomes a whole psychological individual. The person recognizes their own self-worth and uniqueness and embraces both the consciousness and the unconscious.

    Archetypes


    Derived from the collective unconscious, Jungian archetypes are depicted as images and themes with universal meanings across a wide range of cultures. These archetypes may appear in dreams, literature, religion or art.
    There are numerous archetypes that Jung explored within Analytical Psychology, but below we will explore the main four that are discussed most often:

    1. The Persona


    The persona, also referred to as the “mask,” signifies the outward face that each human being presents to the world. It’s not our true self but represents our “conformity” within society. Like acting, the persona is the performance we put on for others, which isn’t who we really are.

    2. The Shadow


    The shadow archetype represents the animal side of our personality. From the shadow, individuals gain both creative and destructive energies, which influence their predispositions. This includes all the things that individuals do not want to know about themselves or do not like. It is the part of the unconscious that is most accessible by the conscious.

    3. The Anima/Animus


    Jung described the anima/animus as the mirror images of our biological sex. In other words, the unconscious feminine side in men and, vice versa, the unconscious masculine side in women. The anima represents the feminine aspects, while the animus represents the masculine aspects.

    4. The Self


    The self is an intrinsically important part of Jung’s Analytical Psychology. The self is what proves a sense of unity in the human experience. Every individual should be aiming to achieve a state of selfhood to create a balance between the conscious and unconscious.

    Benefits of Jungian Psychology

    In traditional treatments, a Jungian therapist will work mostly in individual therapy sessions to improve the health and wellbeing of the client. However, some Jungian therapy has extended sessions to include couples and families instead of just individuals.
    Although you don’t need a diagnosable mental health issue to pursue Jungian therapy, there are many mental health problems that can be helped by treatment, including:


    • Anxiety
    • Depression
    • Addiction
    • Trauma
    • Personality Disorders



    Jungian therapy works with patients to help them recognize the potential in themselves and work toward personal growth. This holistic approach, which contains many spiritual elements, can help people see what obstacles have been preventing them from living fulfilled lives — and overcome them.

    It is important to note that Jungian therapy is a long-term therapy with intensive sessions, so it can be more expensive than other types of therapy.




    How is Jungian Psychology Different from Freud’s Psychoanalysis?

    Freud and Jung were contemporaries who often wrote and researched together during their lives. In fact, Jung initially saw Sigmund Freud as a mentor in the study of human experience. However, there came a certain point where their disparate views and approaches to psychology caused them to end their professional relationship and friendship.

    Specifically, Freud chose to end their working relationship due to Jung’s disagreement with many of the key concepts of Freudian psychoanalysis. Although there were complex differences between Freud and Jung’s contributions to the understanding of human psychology, below is a brief breakdown of five key concepts they disagreed upon:

    The Unconscious Mind


    Freud saw the unconscious mind as the core center of all repressed thoughts, memories and the driver of sex and aggression. He broke the human mind into three main structures: the id, the ego and the superego. The id is the unconscious, which drives sex and aggression, and its only goal is to seek pleasure. The ego is our conscious, which includes our memories and thoughts. Lastly, our superego is the part of our mind that attempts to mediate the id to conform to socially acceptable standards.

    Jung also broke the human mind into three parts, but it revolved around the human psyche. As noted earlier, to Jung, the unconscious is divided into the ego, the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious. The ego is the conscious part of the human mind. The personal unconscious encompasses all recalled and suppressed memories. Meanwhile, the collective unconscious refers to the shared knowledge and experiences that humans are born with.

    Religion


    Freud believed that religion was an “escape” for the masses that shouldn’t be propagated. Conversely, Jung believed that religion played a necessary role in individuation. Jung didn’t practice a specific religion, but he did explore many in his studies, particularly Eastern philosophies and religions.

    Sex and Sexuality


    This was probably Freud and Jung’s greatest point of conflict. Anyone familiar with Freud’s work will recognize that the ideas of repressed and expressed sexuality are the fundamental motivating forces behind his theories and methods. He felt that sex and sexuality were the main drivers behind all human behavior.

    In contrast, Jung felt that it’s psychic energy or life force that drives and influences human behavior, not sex and sexuality. In his understanding of the human psyche, sexuality was just one manifestation of greater psychic energy. He also felt that the Oedipal impulses explored by Freud were incorrect and that the mother and child relationship was actually built upon love and protection, instead of sexuality.

    Dreams

    Both Freud and Jung believed that dream interpretations were an essential window into the unconscious mind. Freud explained that dreams were indications of our deepest desires, unconstrained by societal standards and that they were often symbolically sexual in nature.

    Jung disagreed that most dreams were sexual in nature or had hidden or fixed meanings. He didn’t believe there was a universal dream dictionary that could interpret everyone’s dreams. Instead, he believed that dreams could hold a variety of meanings based on the dreamer’s unique associations. In his approach, dreams held their own distinct meanings created by both the external (day-to-day life) and internal (feelings and emotions) world.

    Jung's Modern Man in Search of a Soul is a great resource for the practical application of dream interpretation.

    Parapsychology


    Freud completely disagreed with Jung regarding the paranormal as a complete skeptic. Meanwhile, Jung wholeheartedly believed in the field of parapsychology. Many of his theories were built upon psychic phenomena, such as his controversial theory of synchronicity. He felt that many coincidences weren’t actually coincidences, but instead examples of psycho-psychic phenomena.



    source : https://www.routledge.com/blog/artic...ian-psychology


    Definition of a Jungian : A person who believes in and/or practice Jungian psychology. A Jungian accepts Jung's work as scientific and his conceptualisation of the Psyche as a discovery of its true nature. They therefore articulate all their understanding of the human psychological dynamics (pathology /Therapy etc..) around Jung's Psychology regardless of Modern Psychology and scientific knowledge in terms Psychiatry, cognitive sciences and human behavior.

    Edward Edinger is a good example of a Jungian devotee. Note how he is reminiscent of a Priest talking about Jesus in the video I posted above. That level of devotion is very similar to what constitute "Faith" in a Belief system. Although he denies it, he seems to me like a disciple of a Guru or Prophet evangelising the world with the good News. The symbolic of his choice of the material he is reading in that video (Jung's "Answer to Job" ) speaks volume about that quasi religious devotion. A lot of Jungians have been criticized because of this.

    I'm sort of thinking that seeing lives a meta narrative in a society takes you a long way without actually touching the subject itself.

    Sorry, if this feel derailing but for instance, this communicates a lot of similar type of message without mentioning Jung (with some extra broadness).



    So, continuing with my meta Jungian ways. How you think German as a language affected Jung? There seems to be peculiar forms of grammatical genders and so on.
    I don't think that the german language had a significant impact on Jung's work. Although he indeed was interested in semantic and the etymological aspects of words, he focused on primal images and universal symbolic representations derived from root ideas (Archetypes). In that sense, syntax and the articulation of language is not as important as the primal symbol. Besides,the german language has been influenced by and integrated a lot of aspects of Romance Languages. Not to mention the fact that Jung was a polyglot and great erudite he knew his Latin and Greek very well.

    Personally, I'm not a Jungian. To me everything that does not exist as objectively true in the external world and/or has not been scientifically proven (like Jung's Model of Psyche) stays in the field of possibilities which is like a quarantine zone to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Personally, I'm not a Jungian. To me everything that does not exist as objectively true in the external world and/or has not been scientifically proven (like Jung's Model of Psyche) stays in the field of possibilities which is like a quarantine zone to me.
    Same. All these Model's and all are nice theoretical concepts but they ultimatively don't mean much in real life. You might as well use astrology to evaluate the personality of a person (which people who are interested in astrology do relatively well as they often have a higher accentuation on emotionality and are therefore more in tune with other people). I don't really learn a lot about other people by applying the functions and most of the time they are misused anyway. It's really more rewarding to pay attention to character traits and how they align with my own. The only benefit of typology is that it makes you aware that many character traits could be essentially a core feature of someone's personality and are therefore less likely, if not impossible to change. This is in my opinion a bigger aspect of why people have conflicts than intertype relations which hold some form of truth in my opinion but have too many flawed aspects to be used in any kind of effective way. you can make your theory as convoluted as you want with rings and cognitive styles but if it's not recognizable in an easy way it might as well not exist to me.

    but I guess that's just my way. I ultimatively just use what I find the most interesting and I'm not really focused on who came up with what or if this or that is water-proofed or empirical. when you go with humans you are often pretty much in a fluid state and react to how the tides are turning. some people would say that's the Fe in me speaking.
    Quote Originally Posted by idiot View Post
    I have been thinking about what Alive was saying about everyone on here being IEI, and I conclude that he is right, or at least he is on to something.

    If Jung based his theories on the people he met in his life, even if he met more people than the average person, that means that he based his theories on a certain type of person. The type of person who might go to him for therapy or talks, or who might believe the esoteric ideas he was spouting at the time. Thus it's possible that he did not categorize all humans into types, but just made subtypes for a specific type of person. This overarching type of person is the same type that is heavily interested in theories of this kind, and whom Alive says is an IEI.

    Therefore, Alive is right. We are all IEIs with subtypes. With that, I'm off this forum
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    I don't think that the german language had a significant impact on Jung's work. Although he indeed was interested in semantic and the etymological aspects of words, he focused on primal images and universal symbolic representations derived from root ideas (Archetypes). In that sense, syntax and the articulation of language is not as important as the primal symbol. Besides,the german language has been influenced by and integrated a lot of aspects of Romance Languages. Not to mention the fact that Jung was a polyglot and great erudite he knew his Latin and Greek very well.
    Ok, but even those languages carry the very same "burden" that may give rise to concepts such as anima and animus. Like, I said, I like to study meta aspects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    Ok, but even those languages carry the very same "burden" that may give rise to concepts such as anima and animus. Like, I said, I like to study meta aspects.
    Precisely ! All in due time and regardless of the language, certain concepts needed a Carl Gustav Jung for them to emerge.

     



    We are talking about the very expression of the human genius .We can apply the same principle to all disciplines, Music, Poetry, Physics, Math etc.







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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Precisely ! All in due time and regardless of the language, certain concepts needed a Carl Gustav Jung for them to emerge.

    We are talking about the very expression of the human genius .We can apply the same principle to all disciplines, Music, Poetry, Physics, Math etc. [CENTER]
    OK, I must say that intricate gender splitting in thought or as a device for personal world is quite alien to me. We over here tend to even mix up he/she when open our mouths and express something like that in a language that needs it.

    Anyway, I'd probably treat Jungian thought as archeologically rooted device for the psyche. Maybe I'm off but this tend to be my gist of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post



    TBH, this seems to be the key to Jungian typology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    OK, I must say that intricate gender splitting in thought or as a device for personal world is quite alien to me. We over here tend to even mix up he/she when open our mouths and express something like that in a language that needs it.

    Anyway, I'd probably treat Jungian thought as archaeologically rooted device for the psyche. Maybe I'm off but this tend to be my gist of it.
    Indeed ! I think it's a good way to put it. In fact I see it in a similar way. It's as if from Jung perspective, he had discovered the entrance of mysterious place with some kind of huge giant machine at its center. At first he couldn't identify what it was but the more he got closer and brought light to different areas of the machine's surface, he realized it was a UFO. After a while he finally managed to board the ship and realized that physical reality, space and time no longer made sense inside. He spend all his life try to figure out how that thing works. He called that ship "Psyche"...


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    How much in-depth have you been delving into analytical psychology? Just a question out of curiosity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    How much in-depth have you been delving into analytical psychology? Just a question out of curiosity.
    It's hard to quantify or measure. I've read some of Jung's book in french way before socionics. I have a digital version of his "The Collected Works" (I don't have the "Red Book" !) I read it sporadically since a while and I think I have a decent overview of his thought and psychology. I'm still learning but it's hard to find the motivation to properly invest myself in his work more than I already did. You know, to me at the end of the day, both Analytical Psychology and Psychoanalysis are ought to be considered as Philosophy, systems of thoughts.

    I used to be very interested in Freudian Psychoanalysis before I completely excommunicate myself from the Freudian cult after having read Michel Onfray's "Twilight of an Idol" a very controversial critique on Freud.

     
    I discovered Freud when I was in 7th Grade (5ème in French). It was during an hour of detention in the school library and I saw the book "The Interpretation of Dream" in one of the shelves. I don't know why this book caught my attention, but I had already heard the name Freud and I knew about the existence of the field of psychology. Of course I didn't understand a thing of it and after the hour of detention ended I closed the book and just went on with my life, but something unconsciously clicked in my mind.

    The following year I started to be more absent than present at school, I would keep that habit until the rest of my school day. I would skip school and go hang out downtown. I have always had lots and lots of different interests, but I remember reading Freud regularly in the book sections of department stores. That said, I have memory lapses and there is a lot of my life from that period that I don't remember. I know that many years later with the advent of the Internet, I found a way to get Freud's work and properly read it. That was a challenge (retrospectively, I find Freud more difficult than Jung to understand for some reason).

    Anyway, I always wanted to understand why people were so different. The world was full of good and bad people, monsters and saints. At the time, I had already been traumatized by life and the exposure to the shadow of people whom I trusted. However, even then my mind was already imbued with a certain idea about the extent of the spectrum of the human condition. I grew up watching TV shows like "Holocaust" and "Roots" among other various TV shows from the late 70"s and 80's. But I digress.



    I don't believe that neither Jung's Model of the Psyche nor Freud's are true or real. It just happens that Jung's model is more appealing to me because it is not only internally consistent but also beautiful, it's really a work of art, a masterpiece. But as much as I want to believe, without strong objective evidences that neither prove nor disprove the existence of an alleged truth as it has been conceptualized a priori, it remains in the field of possibilities. In fact, in the light of our modern knowledge, I have just enough reasons to believe that Freud and Jung ideas don't really align with the truth. They are in many ways of the domain of the Faith and self-development. That's why I see Freud's Psychoanalysis (Jung was a Freudian !) as a philosophical movement. The Truth is out there...
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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Indeed ! I think it's a good way to put it. In fact I see it in a similar way. It's as if from Jung perspective, he had discovered the entrance of mysterious place with some kind of huge giant machine at its center. At first he couldn't identify what it was but the more he got closer and brought light to different areas of the machine's surface, he realized it was a UFO. After a while he finally managed to board the ship and realized that physical reality, space and time no longer made sense inside. He spend all his life try to figure out how that thing works. He called that ship "Psyche"...


    Speaking of UFOs and Jung


    It certainly eludes me that Jung and New Age are in close contact in the USA. The reasoning here is totally not aligned with it (not that it is common that NAgers would believe in UFOs or not). Strange bedfellows. I suppose there is no analysis of New Agers but given it happened earllier there might have been. The strange point is here that Jung posits psyche being the source of personal truth, so...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    Speaking of UFOs and Jung


    It certainly eludes me that Jung and New Age are in close contact in the USA. The reasoning here is totally not aligned with it (not that it is common that NAgers would believe in UFOs or not). Strange bedfellows. I suppose there is no analysis of New Agers but given it happened earllier there might have been. The strange point is here that Jung posits psyche being the source of personal truth, so...
    I am aware of that video (I'm subscribed to that channel), but I haven't found the time to watch it yet.

    Yes absolutely ! I mean, there is enough material in Jung's work for New age people to validate their most delulu ideas. The main argument being "Jung was new age, therefore new age is the way, the question is are smart enough to see it ? " or something like that. The problem is not Jung and his work, it's the Jungians ! Do you know how to spot new age people ? They will always evoque the "Age of Aquarius" at some point. Take a look at the Edward Edinger video above at 47:10 to 47:29 ...

    Now, it seems to me that Jung is as popular in the USA as Freud is in Europe (particularly in France where the Freudian lobby is quite powerful). The cult of the Psyche is well established since over a century now.
    Last edited by godslave; 07-11-2024 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    I am aware of that video (I'm subscribed to that channel), but I haven't found the time to watch it yet.

    Yes absolutely ! I mean, there is enough material in Jung's work for New age people to validate their most delulu ideas. The main argument being "Jung was new age, therefore new age is the way, the question is are smart enough to see it ? " or something like that. The problem is not Jung and his work, it's the Jungians ! Do you know how to spot new age people ? They will always evoque the "Age of Aquarius" at some point. Take a look at the Edward Edinger video above at 47:10 to 47:29 ...

    Now, it seems to me that Jung is as popular in the USA as Freud is in Europe (particularly in France where the Freudian lobby is quite powerful). The cult of the Psyche is well established since over a century now.
    Ok, Jung seemed to always ask scientific confirmation for external facts (not psyche). This makes it weird to me. He even refused to say anything concrete about UFOs other than "I don't know". I probably put a lot of emphasis on personal convictions and motives more than many other people, refusing to project my own ideals onto others in this sorta stuff. I'd make a dull journalist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    Ok, Jung seemed to always ask scientific confirmation for external facts (not psyche). This makes it weird to me. He even refused to say anything concrete about UFOs other than "I don't know". I probably put a lot of emphasis on personal convictions and motives more than many other people, refusing to project my own ideals onto others in this sorta stuff. I'd make a dull journalist.
    ​I was into Ufology since I was a kid, long before it became officially a reality.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    ​I was into Ufology since I was a kid, long before it became officially a reality.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AZlV-HW830

    I posted the video before in Typology Random Thoughts and back then I thought you fall into 1:50. I'm at 0:40 I guess. I suspect being on the same side is very important for long-term relationship stability. left and right are too different from each other. I wasn't much aware of Posadism before the video, and I think the band Magdalena Bay falls into a similar direction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMJyxP-kUWg

    I would be curious to figure out how much people fall into the categories as many people are centrists yet they do seem to have some inclination towards one way or another. I think there's more answers to be found here in regards to relationship success than ITRs. I think political tendencies are not always apparent as not everyone is very deep into it and it just manifests when people are forced to pick a direction that they find suits them the most.
    Quote Originally Posted by idiot View Post
    I have been thinking about what Alive was saying about everyone on here being IEI, and I conclude that he is right, or at least he is on to something.

    If Jung based his theories on the people he met in his life, even if he met more people than the average person, that means that he based his theories on a certain type of person. The type of person who might go to him for therapy or talks, or who might believe the esoteric ideas he was spouting at the time. Thus it's possible that he did not categorize all humans into types, but just made subtypes for a specific type of person. This overarching type of person is the same type that is heavily interested in theories of this kind, and whom Alive says is an IEI.

    Therefore, Alive is right. We are all IEIs with subtypes. With that, I'm off this forum
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reality Denialist View Post
    Speaking of UFOs and Jung


    It certainly eludes me that Jung and New Age are in close contact in the USA. The reasoning here is totally not aligned with it (not that it is common that NAgers would believe in UFOs or not). Strange bedfellows. I suppose there is no analysis of New Agers but given it happened earllier there might have been. The strange point is here that Jung posits psyche being the source of personal truth, so...
    What is the "New Age" like in Europe?

    In the States, it grew out of the cult of Theosophy. It and other American approaches to religion tend to have an emphasis on "science," that it supposedly proves certain metaphysical ideas. Also, they DO vaguely believe that the psyche is the source of all Truth; that and the pseudoscientific inclinations are where Jung comes in.

    Generally the "nuts and bolts" UFO types, who believe that UFOs are miracles of technology but normally and physically exist are not really New Agers. From the New Agers you hear ideas about them being manifestations of our "higher selves," or the gods/demons/fairies of old, or some type of extradimensional being that can only interact with us in the realm of our psyche...ideas that are at least adjacent to Jung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What is the "New Age" like in Europe?

    In the States, it grew out of the cult of Theosophy. It and other American approaches to religion tend to have an emphasis on "science," that it supposedly proves certain metaphysical ideas. Also, they DO vaguely believe that the psyche is the source of all Truth; that and the pseudoscientific inclinations are where Jung comes in.

    Generally the "nuts and bolts" UFO types, who believe that UFOs are miracles of technology but normally and physically exist are not really New Agers. From the New Agers you hear ideas about them being manifestations of our "higher selves," or the gods/demons/fairies of old, or some type of extradimensional being that can only interact with us in the realm of our psyche...ideas that are at least adjacent to Jung.
    There exists theosophical schools. Those are just theosophical here.

    OK, for all I know, there should be belief in New Age. So to commit oneself in it is not just speculation anymore. I think that is a giant leap if a person ever professes it.

    Let's make this clear:
    Scientific way of thinking: I have no evidence of UFOs and I have/ I don't have any interest in it, so I can not say anything final.
    Committed way of thinking: I'm sure that UFOs do/don't exist because of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and therefore they surely do/don't exist


    Just call me a great fence sitter. I doubt everything. Even my own existence or that I even doubt things



    To be more precise. His studies in woo meant that he studied the psyche of woo which just could mean that he just explained away why people hallucinated (possibly this is left unknown since we can not really observe ourselves that well). To me, he tried to respectfully strip away layers of superstition, which kind of moves the opposite direction of religious doctrines. His detector, aka his embodiment, was also challenged and aided by so-called psyche which makes his stuff more like detective work.

    Anyway, I wonder if the equivalent situation is: I'm the paper and the paper turns into yellow. The paper is entirely unable to study why it happens given that the paper could think. Maybe the assessment could be: Fool's errand. Anyway, humans invent all sort of games.
    Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 07-12-2024 at 05:46 AM.
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    OK,
    The mysterious Jung: his cult, the lies he told, and the occult
    https://www.amazon.com/Jung-Cult-Ori.../dp/0684834235




    To be honest fairer point of view is that lots of people want to see messianic characters on top of that and they overinflate them and practise a broken phone. Let's device a Jungian explanation here.
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    Let's add this interview
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