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Thread: Semi-Dual relationship/EII advice??

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    Default Semi-Dual relationship/EII advice??

    I’m feeling kind of lost… I’ve recently started dating an EII, and while a lot of things are really great, some things just feel off and it makes me really frustrated and sad.

    I was initially attracted to him because he seemed really philosophical, thoughtful and emotionally intelligent in comparison to previous partners and I thought we had potential to engage in a deep way with each other, and while I know that he is those things I feel like we never talk about anything. I try to connect with him by bringing up interesting ideas and showing him things I know we’re both interested in etc to bond over (such as lending him books I think he’d like etc), but it never feels reciprocated. It’s not that he doesn’t like the things I show him or talk about, but I feel like he just goes off and engages with it on his own without ever connecting with me over it or sharing his thoughts and I just feel like I never know what’s on his mind or what he thinks about things and it makes me feel disconnected from him.

    I struggle to understand him and get to know him on a deeper level and I also don’t feel like he’s making any attempts to achieve that despite telling me mutual understanding and connection is a really important thing to him in relationships and that he wishes to be understood. I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me, but I struggle to understand what he admires about me or why. I feel like this goes both ways and none of us feel reassured in the relationship. Something in our communication feels wrong.

    I’m usually surrounded by gamma types and I feel like with them I have sort of an unspoken understanding and connection (I also used to date an ESI but he had a lot of issues which led to things getting very toxic). I thought semi-duals were supposed to be a good pairing, I was honestly hoping we could achieve a very deep connection as we’re both Fi/Te valuing and intuitive types, but I feel frustrated and am starting to think just any gamma type is a more ideal match.

    It just makes me really sad and I would feel heartbroken if I lost him, because I admire him so much as a person and on paper he seems perfect for me, but I just feel like we’re not able to engage with each other in a way I desire.

    Does anyone have any advice, experience with this type of relationship, or just any sort of insight from an EII point of view? Please ask for any elaboration if needed, I didn’t want to make this post longer than it already is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    I’m feeling kind of lost… I’ve recently started dating an EII, and while a lot of things are really great, some things just feel off and it makes me really frustrated and sad.

    I was initially attracted to him because he seemed really philosophical, thoughtful and emotionally intelligent in comparison to previous partners and I thought we had potential to engage in a deep way with each other, and while I know that he is those things I feel like we never talk about anything. I try to connect with him by bringing up interesting ideas and showing him things I know we’re both interested in etc to bond over (such as lending him books I think he’d like etc), but it never feels reciprocated. It’s not that he doesn’t like the things I show him or talk about, but I feel like he just goes off and engages with it on his own without ever connecting with me over it or sharing his thoughts and I just feel like I never know what’s on his mind or what he thinks about things and it makes me feel disconnected from him.

    I struggle to understand him and get to know him on a deeper level and I also don’t feel like he’s making any attempts to achieve that despite telling me mutual understanding and connection is a really important thing to him in relationships and that he wishes to be understood. I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me, but I struggle to understand what he admires about me or why. I feel like this goes both ways and none of us feel reassured in the relationship. Something in our communication feels wrong.

    I’m usually surrounded by gamma types and I feel like with them I have sort of an unspoken understanding and connection (I also used to date an ESI but he had a lot of issues which led to things getting very toxic). I thought semi-duals were supposed to be a good pairing, I was honestly hoping we could achieve a very deep connection as we’re both Fi/Te valuing and intuitive types, but I feel frustrated and am starting to think just any gamma type is a more ideal match.

    It just makes me really sad and I would feel heartbroken if I lost him, because I admire him so much as a person and on paper he seems perfect for me, but I just feel like we’re not able to engage with each other in a way I desire.

    Does anyone have any advice, experience with this type of relationship, or just any sort of insight from an EII point of view? Please ask for any elaboration if needed, I didn’t want to make this post longer than it already is.
    Here you go, yuucifer: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

    I will write more about this when I have some time. Maybe late tomorrow.

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    When you're in love with anyone/anything, everything is perfect because you're delusional (in a good way). Maybe the romanticism is gone and you're focusing too much on the differences and see that as a negative and you're focusing on the bad. You will always have differences and you can always see the wrong in everybody. "Something in our communication feels wrong." To determine wrongness you always require a standard, but... he's never gonna be wrong if you make him the standard. He's not your dual, so you have to get into the mindset that you're excited and thankful that he's not a dual.

    You're thinking like this: Omg he's confusing (っ◞‸◟ c)

    When it should be like this:
    - Omg he's confusing (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)
    - He's soo different from Gammas I'm used to who are so easy to understand. This one's a challenge though
    (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)
    - I just feel like I never know what’s on his mind
    (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)

    This is too long and bound for spiraling: "I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me, but I struggle to understand what he admires about me". You should have stopped after "I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me". The last part is fluff and overthinking.

    You're a positivist with high Ne, so that would be easy. Plus I think love pilling and adding more romanticism is safe bec you said he loves you too and you want to keep him.

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    I would have a conversation with him about everything you have said here, maybe without mentioning personality types at all, or the gamma comparison



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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Here you go, yuucifer: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

    I will write more about this when I have some time. Maybe late tomorrow.

    Thank you,

    Parts of this puts into words some of the frustration Iíve been feeling, especially regarding meeting our sensing needs. In the beginning the two of us were very much communicating through hints. I notice him trying to ďbaitĒ Si out of me, acting in such a way that I should be offering him care without directly asking. This sort of irritates me which leads him to act in ways I consider whiny and childish.



    He also seems to want me to read his mind, drag information out of him and guide him through opening up to me which I donít feel capable of doing except for assuring him he can do so in his own time.


    I also feel the lack of Se from his side, and desire more displays of affection through direct action.


    Iíve tried to counter this problem by encouraging more direct communication about our needs, and while our communication is usually very good, my attempts to explain my needs more directly sometimes makes him depressed and feeling like he canít give me what I want, and I somewhat feel the same regarding the things heís asking from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    I would have a conversation with him about everything you have said here, maybe without mentioning personality types at all, or the gamma comparison
    After writing this post, I was able to articulate the issue I touch on within it to him in a productive and sensitive way, and while we reached a mutual understanding and discussed solutions, I worry that continuously bringing up frustrations within the relationship is going to cause further depression. Iím hoping to reach some sort of mutual understanding and compromise so that we both can feel cared about without exhausting the both of usÖ

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    When you're in love with anyone/anything, everything is perfect because you're delusional (in a good way). Maybe the romanticism is gone and you're focusing too much on the differences and see that as a negative and you're focusing on the bad. You will always have differences and you can always see the wrong in everybody. "Something in our communication feels wrong." To determine wrongness you always require a standard, but... he's never gonna be wrong if you make him the standard. He's not your dual, so you have to get into the mindset that you're excited and thankful that he's not a dual.

    You're thinking like this: Omg he's confusing (っ◞‸◟ c)

    When it should be like this:
    - Omg he's confusing (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)
    - He's soo different from Gammas I'm used to who are so easy to understand. This one's a challenge though
    (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)
    - I just feel like I never know what’s on his mind
    (,,♡ᵕ♡,,)

    This is too long and bound for spiraling: "I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me, but I struggle to understand what he admires about me". You should have stopped after "I don’t doubt that he loves me either, he’s been extremely affectionate from the start and he continuously tells me how he admires me". The last part is fluff and overthinking.

    You're a positivist with high Ne, so that would be easy. Plus I think love pilling and adding more romanticism is safe bec you said he loves you too and you want to keep him.
    I do feel that after dating my dual I’ve subconsciously set some standards and expectations (even though my new partner is so much better than my ex dual for reasons not related to socionics type) and I catch myself unfairly trying to make others live up to these expectations despite being happy in the relationship.

    I am working on that as I never wish to make anyone feel inadequate, I just have a tendency to be very open about perceived issues (without considering the emotional impact of expressing them enough…).

    Your post has given me a bit of assurance so thank you.

    I do feel like I struggle to give him affection the way he desires, I’m not very verbally affectionate and I tend to display it in more subtle ways and through my actions, but that is something I should strive to improve just in general as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    To determine wrongness you always require a standard, but... he's never gonna be wrong if you make him the standard.
    Wow, this is a great lineÖ A new insight I havenít had in a while. Not that I necessarily agree with the advice for OPís context, but definitely helps reframe certain ways of thinking.

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    one of the closest friends of my brother is a conflictor

    I know him, he is indeed a conflicting type

    maybe being H sub on DCNH might explain things but

    also trust your gut sometimes/give things a shot if so inclined

    socionics is depressing



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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    one of the closest friends of my brother is a conflictor

    I know him, he is indeed a conflicting type

    maybe being H sub on DCNH might explain things but

    also trust your gut sometimes/give things a shot if so inclined

    socionics is depressing
    Are you saying my partner would be my conflictor?

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    with semi-duals: the main problem is that they do not support your 3rd valued and will sometimes cross by 2nd valued

    It’s not that he doesn’t like the things I show him or talk about, but I feel like he just goes off and engages with it on his own without ever connecting with me over it or sharing his thoughts and I just feel like I never know what’s on his mind or what he thinks about things and it makes me feel disconnected from him.
    introverts may act more like this. especially I-T types, as to connect with others informally is generally important for F types. if this is felt as a larger problem, then you may not have complementary 1-4 functions. because you are rather dependent on others, especially friendly ones like romances, to engage with the info of weak functions. for example, EII like to get and discuss what's related to logical facts and efficient procedures, but are not so active with it alone, normally. to engage with info regularly, independently, that's strong functions.

    if there is consistent problem with ''reaching'' each other, then it can be related to I-I relationships.


    this is an explanation from a typology perspective. the reason may not be type related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiorale View Post
    Yep. Suggest OP to either retype both people or completely disregard typing.
    Based on what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Based on what?
    You hear a lot of opinions on a forum.

    FWIW, I have no problem with believing that you are LIE.

    Also, your problems and interactions with the person you label as EII are exactly like the problems and interactions that I have with my EII secretary of 12 years.

    As I promised, I'll write more about this early tomorrow, when my brain isn't shorted out from a very long day.

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    Maybe try directly expressing your need for more open communication about your thoughts and feelings. It could help bridge the gap and strengthen your bond. Every relationship has its unique dynamics, so hang in there and keep communicating openly.

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    Hi, @yuucifer.

    I’m LIE-Te, and I was married for many years to an SLI-Te, who was the same type as my father, and is also my Supervisor.
    Supervision is one-sided Conflict, but when you grow up with it, you suppress yourself and come to see that kind of bad relationship as being normal.
    If you had asked me, when I was married, if I was happy, I’d have said that I was the happiest person in the world.

    After she left, and I divorced her, and I got free of her Delta influence, my income doubled in the first year of my bachelorhood, because I no longer had someone throwing cinder blocks in front of my run, whom I thought should be on my side.

    When I got divorced, I had been looking at Socionics as an explanation for why my marriage broke up, since she and I were otherwise a perfect match on paper, requiring only each of us to suppress our natural expectations to make it work.
    I had also been working with a female married EII secretary for about six years. We went out to lunch together, and man, I could take that woman anywhere.
    She was thin, dressed perfectly, was demure and lady-like, was funny, was smart, and she liked me a lot.

    Eventually, both she and I got divorced around the same time. And we started going out for dinner, too, and she started dropping hints that she wanted more that just dinner.

    If I hadn’t known about Socionics, I’d have married her.

    However, I do know about Socionics, and as it predicts, the EII and I have a lot of respect, affection, and admiration for each other, but
    1. We can’t motivate each other. My duals can motivate me, and I can motivate them. Not so with semi-Duals.
    2. She’s an Infantile and it shows. I need an Aggressor. Her name is Susan, but she calls herself Susie, and I called her Susan for the longest time out of misplaced respect before I understood that she WANTS to be called Susie, like a little girl.
    Well, I don’t need a little girl. I need an equal partner.

    I’ve been doing field experiments with every introvert in the Socion, and what I’ve found is that the Socionics inter-type predictions are all true, and the inter-type relationships do not change with time or age. For example, I had a 22 year old ESI tell me, seriously and practically, that she wanted us to get an apartment to live in, because she was "tired of paying rent." I told her that nothing is free. She replied, "So, yes?". I was older than her father, whom I knew.

    I completely understand your aversion to ESIs. They are really different from LIEs, and the ESI-Se have a lot of hangups from trying to reconcile low Te and the social expectations for males, while being introverted Aggressors. My god, that results in a very twisty person. They seem to think about sex ALL THE TIME, and yet, they are too moral and introverted to come out and say what they want.
    I've dated a few female ESI-Se's and they all seem to have screwed up attitudes about sex. I think of sex in direct, practical terms, but they do not. Not really.

    I, personally, am now tending towards ESI-Fis, since they seem to be a bit less crazy than the ESI-Ses, but I haven’t yet found one who meets my standards and lives nearby and is looking to have a man in her life.


    I do believe that you can make any relationship work. You can marry your Conflictor and make it work. You can marry your Quasi-Identical and not murder them. But if you do, you are going to have to make some serious compromises in what you expect to get from the relationship, and you WILL NEVER get them to change in those areas.

    I’ve decided that I’m not going to compromise on Duality. I am willing to give up a lot of other stuff, but not that.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-23-2024 at 01:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hi, @yuucifer.

    Iím LIE-Te, and I was married for many years to an SLI-Ti, who was the same type as my father, and is also my Supervisor.
    Supervision is one-sided Conflict, but when you grow up with it, you suppress yourself and come to see that kind of bad relationship as being normal.
    If you had asked me, when I was married, if I was happy, Iíd have said that I was the happiest person in the world.

    After she left, and I divorced her, and I got free of her Delta influence, my income doubled in the first year of my bachelorhood, because I no longer had someone throwing cinder blocks in front of my run, whom I thought should be on my side.

    When I got divorced, I had been looking at Socionics as an explanation for why my marriage broke up, since she and I were otherwise a perfect match on paper, requiring only each of us to suppress our natural expectations to make it work.
    I had also been working with a female married EII secretary for about six years. We went out to lunch together, and man, I could take that woman anywhere.
    She was thin, dressed perfectly, was demure and lady-like, was funny, was smart, and she liked me a lot.

    Eventually, both she and I got divorced around the same time. And we started going out for dinner, too, and she started dropping hints that she wanted more that just dinner.

    If I hadnít known about Socionics, Iíd have married her.

    However, I do know about Socionics, and as it predicts, the EII and I have a lot of respect, affection, and admiration for each other, but
    1. We canít motivate each other. My duals can motivate me, and I can motivate them. Not so with semi-Duals.
    2. Sheís an Infantile and it shows. I need an Aggressor. Her name is Susan, but she calls herself Susie, and I called her Susan for the longest time out of misplaced respect before I understood that she WANTS to be called Susie, like a little girl.
    Well, I donít need a little girl. I need an equal partner.

    Iíve been doing field experiments with every introvert in the Socion, and what Iíve found is that the Socionics inter-type predictions are all true, and the inter-type relationships do not change with time or age. For example, I had a 22 year old ESI tell me, seriously and practically, that she wanted us to get an apartment to live in, because she was "tired of paying rent." I told her that nothing is free. She replied, "So, yes?". I was older than her father, whom I knew.

    I completely understand your aversion to ESIs. They are really different from LIEs, and the ESI-Se have a lot of hangups from trying to reconcile low Te and the social expectations for males, while being introverted Aggressors. My god, that results in a very twisty person. They seem to think about sex ALL THE TIME, and yet, they are too moral and introverted to come out and say what they want.
    I've dated a few female ESI-Se's and they all seem to have screwed up attitudes about sex. I think of sex in direct, practical terms, but they do not. Not really.

    I, personally, am now tending towards ESI-Fis, since they seem to be a bit less crazy than the ESI-Ses, but I havenít yet found one who meets my standards and lives nearby and is looking to have a man in her life.


    I do believe that you can make any relationship work. You can marry your Conflictor and make it work. You can marry your Quasi-Identical and not murder them. But if you do, you are going to have to make some serious compromises in what you expect to get from the relationship, and you WILL NEVER get them to change in those areas.

    Iíve decided that Iím not going to compromise on Duality. I am willing to give up a lot of other stuff, but not that.
    Thank you for your response,

    My partner being an infantile is definitely the first thing that put me off him and made me question if we had any sexual attraction or were better off as friends. I sometimes joke that heís the girlfriend in our relationship based on the way he acts. Itís definitely made me doubt our chemistry, and I donít like treating my partner like a child.

    Iíve made similar observations as you about male ESIs however. My ex was an ESI-Se, and he had a lot of internalised issues he didnít know how to deal with, a lot of them related to social expectations. While ESIs arenít particularly difficult to find in my area, my past relationship made me somewhat sceptical that Iíll be able to find one who will treat me well.. and when I split up with him I pretty much started looking for partners who were everything he was not. I briefly went out with an SEI, that ended very quickly as you can imagine.

    I know my past experience with an ESI partner isnít representative of all ESIs, and itís possible I may have better luck with an ESI-Fi too, but Iíve decided to still invest in my relationship with my EII partner. There are a lot of pros to our relationship that I currently feel make up for him not being my dual. For example, despite me questioning our chemistry, our sexual life is still miles better than my dual ex due to other reasons, and the same can be said for multiple aspects of our relationship. He has a lot of qualities outside of socionics type I seek in a partner and I just see him as a genuinely good person with good values who knows how to deal with his shit in a mature and healthy way.

    We havenít been together for that long, so itís possible things may not work long term, for example, heís a homebody which might get tedious eventually, and when we discuss our futures things can get a bit awkward, he talks about settling down, I see myself traveling for work, etc. I definitely donít want to feel held back, but Iím in my 20s and for now Iím happy with him and am just seeing if I can make it work as I believe our relationship has potential and Iím just trying to iron out any issues we have as early on as possible to give it the best shot we can.

    Thank you for sharing your experience, itís insightful to hear from someone whoís had some more time to figure out what theyíre looking for, I wish you the best of luck with finding a suitable ESI

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Thank you for your response,
    You are very welcome, but I’d do the same for any LIE. I wish someone had told me about Socionics when I was sixteen.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    My partner being an infantile is definitely the first thing that put me off him and made me question if we had any sexual attraction or were better off as friends. I sometimes joke that he’s the girlfriend in our relationship based on the way he acts. It’s definitely made me doubt our chemistry, and I don’t like treating my partner like a child.
    I have never managed to be with an Infantile (that I know of), although I’ve had a couple opportunities. They just don’t seem “right” to me.
    My SLI-Te ex-wife was a Caregiver. I’d say to her, “Helen, let’s go upstairs and have sex.” She’d reply, “I can’t right now. I’m busy folding your socks.”
    I’d say, “Helen, I don’t need my socks folded right now.”
    She’d say, “Yes, you do,” and would keep folding socks. She was Caregiving me.
    This, despite the fact that we’d both orgasm 100% of the time together, although her technique was BORING BORING BORING.

    With the LSI Aggressors, I’d say, “Let’s have sex right now.” They’d say, “In the car? In this parking lot?”
    I’d say, “Yes,”, and they’d say “OK! Let’s do this!”

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    I’ve made similar observations as you about male ESIs however. My ex was an ESI-Se, and he had a lot of internalised issues he didn’t know how to deal with, a lot of them related to social expectations. While ESIs aren’t particularly difficult to find in my area, my past relationship made me somewhat skeptical that I’ll be able to find one who will treat me well..
    Believe me, they exist.
    Unfortunately, ESI-Fis don’t look like SEE male gods. They look like weird skinny birds who are smart and who appreciate LIEs without insulting them. Less like this ESI-Se: https://imgur.com/a/1lmefHl, and more like this Adam Sandler-like ESI-Fi: https://imgur.com/5xyWf8K. (Both of these guys are my personal friends.)

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    and when I split up with him I pretty much started looking for partners who were everything he was not. I briefly went out with an SEI, that ended very quickly as you can imagine.
    Lol. There is a spectrum of compatibility and compromise, and you were just experiencing most of its range.
    In my view, I know that I want a particular brand of car, like a Mercedes 560 SEC or a Tesla model S. My problem, and that of anyone shopping for a car, is to figure out which particular model you want (ESI), and then find one which hasn’t been screwed up in its early life at the factory (Secure attachment style) or by its previous owners (bad ex-BFs).
    Not so easy, especially with ESIs, because ESIs don’t have Ni to extrapolate potential futures from present clues. They have Se and Si, so they judge what might be possible in the future only by what has already happened to them in the past. This characteristic in them is depressing, to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post

    I know my past experience with an ESI partner isn’t representative of all ESIs, and it’s possible I may have better luck with an ESI-Fi too, but I’ve decided to still invest in my relationship with my EII partner. There are a lot of pros to our relationship that I currently feel make up for him not being my dual. For example, despite me questioning our chemistry, our sexual life is still miles better than my dual ex due to other reasons, and the same can be said for multiple aspects of our relationship. He has a lot of qualities outside of socionics type I seek in a partner and I just see him as a genuinely good person with good values who knows how to deal with his shit in a mature and healthy way.
    Your attitude is super-mature. It might even work, although it didn’t for me. On the other hand, I’m presently single and my prospects for finding a good match are not great.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post

    We haven’t been together for that long, so it’s possible things may not work long term, for example, he’s a homebody which might get tedious eventually, and when we discuss our futures things can get a bit awkward, he talks about settling down, I see myself traveling for work, etc. I definitely don’t want to feel held back, but I’m in my 20s and for now I’m happy with him and am just seeing if I can make it work as I believe our relationship has potential and I’m just trying to iron out any issues we have as early on as possible to give it the best shot we can.
    Here is one last piece of information for your toolbox.

    When my marriage failed, I was clueless. I didn’t have that failure on my Bingo card, and so I bought about fifty-seven books on “What makes a marriage last?” I wasn’t dealing with Socionics at that time, I was just looking for answers, because my ex and I were a perfect couple on paper. Hell, I still admire her and I think she's a great person; just not a great person for me.
    The best advice I was able to find came from a couple’s therapy pair who were able to predict with a very high certainty whether or not couples will stay together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnVSrCCSw4,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uazFBCDvVw

    Gottman is an ESI-Fi, and his wife might be LIE, so their own marriage is pretty stable.
    He basically said that couples make bids for attention, like, “Hey, look at that squirrel!”.
    They are basically asking “Are you here for me when I need you?”
    If you don’t look at the squirrel 95% of the time, your marriage is fucked.
    Now the question becomes, “How can I find someone who will look at my squirrel for the rest of our lives?” Who would be interested (share Quadra values) in what I’m interested in, forever?’ Not just until they have seen every damned squirrel in the neighborhood.
    I believe that only Duals have that potential, and that’s why I’m stuck on trying to make a relationship with a high-horsepower, good-handling ESI that isn’t rusted out and that doesn’t have a history of crashes.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post

    Thank you for sharing your experience, it’s insightful to hear from someone who’s had some more time to figure out what they’re looking for, I wish you the best of luck with finding a suitable ESI
    Thank you very much, yuucifer. I wish you the best outcomes on your endeavors.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-23-2024 at 12:29 PM.

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    I say brilliant things sporadically BrainlessSquid's Avatar
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    How much did you talk to each other before dating?

    It took me 5 months to connect with my dual, before that we never had any real conversation.
    Get to know him better and address his needs. That will make him more attracted and will want to reciprocate.

    If you feel your important needs aren't being met, try discussing. If that doesn't work, there's no point in being lovers, you should be friends.
    Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
    Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
    Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
    Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
    Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!

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    Tbh, nothing in this thread sounds particularly like an LIE-EII relation. I suggest you communicate your concerns to the EII. if they’re an EII, they should have already been aware of any emotional disconnect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Thank you for your response,

    My partner being an infantile is definitely the first thing that put me off him and made me question if we had any sexual attraction or were better off as friends. I sometimes joke that he’s the girlfriend in our relationship based on the way he acts. It’s definitely made me doubt our chemistry, and I don’t like treating my partner like a child.

    I’ve made similar observations as you about male ESIs however. My ex was an ESI-Se, and he had a lot of internalised issues he didn’t know how to deal with, a lot of them related to social expectations. While ESIs aren’t particularly difficult to find in my area, my past relationship made me somewhat sceptical that I’ll be able to find one who will treat me well.. and when I split up with him I pretty much started looking for partners who were everything he was not. I briefly went out with an SEI, that ended very quickly as you can imagine.

    I know my past experience with an ESI partner isn’t representative of all ESIs, and it’s possible I may have better luck with an ESI-Fi too, but I’ve decided to still invest in my relationship with my EII partner. There are a lot of pros to our relationship that I currently feel make up for him not being my dual. For example, despite me questioning our chemistry, our sexual life is still miles better than my dual ex due to other reasons, and the same can be said for multiple aspects of our relationship. He has a lot of qualities outside of socionics type I seek in a partner and I just see him as a genuinely good person with good values who knows how to deal with his shit in a mature and healthy way.

    We haven’t been together for that long, so it’s possible things may not work long term, for example, he’s a homebody which might get tedious eventually, and when we discuss our futures things can get a bit awkward, he talks about settling down, I see myself traveling for work, etc. I definitely don’t want to feel held back, but I’m in my 20s and for now I’m happy with him and am just seeing if I can make it work as I believe our relationship has potential and I’m just trying to iron out any issues we have as early on as possible to give it the best shot we can.

    Thank you for sharing your experience, it’s insightful to hear from someone who’s had some more time to figure out what they’re looking for, I wish you the best of luck with finding a suitable ESI
    Outside of socionics, this will only get more prenounced and cause yall to break up in the future. I hate to be that blunt about it, but yea that's only gonna get worse because it won't go away even with "work", it will just compound.

    As far as socionics goes, can you elaborate on how both your sensing needs aren't met. Examples?

    Either way, XNXX relations seem to be too much head and heart and not enough body. That's what I experienced dating an ILI as an EII at least. I know as an EII guy jokes about being the gf in the relationship are probably just as bad as actually being pegged lol holy cow that's brutal.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 06-23-2024 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    You are very welcome, but I’d do the same for any LIE. I wish someone had told me about Socionics when I was sixteen.


    I have never managed to be with an Infantile (that I know of), although I’ve had a couple opportunities. They just don’t seem “right” to me.
    My SLI-Te ex-wife was a Caregiver. I’d say to her, “Helen, let’s go upstairs and have sex.” She’d reply, “I can’t right now. I’m busy folding your socks.”
    I’d say, “Helen, I don’t need my socks folded right now.”
    She’d say, “Yes, you do,” and would keep folding socks. She was Caregiving me.
    As an infantile, if a girl ever told me this I would be fully convinced that she loved me. My mind would believe there's no way in hell she's doing that unless she loves me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    As an infantile, if a girl ever told me this I would be fully convinced that she loved me. My mind would believe there's no way in hell she's doing that unless she loves me.
    Thank you, Lord Pixel, for your explanation. It clears up a lot of doubt in my mind.

    To me, when she said that, I interpreted her actions as a way to screw me over and get the upper hand in the relationship. And yet, I have always believed that she truly loved me and is a good person. It just didn’t FEEL like “love” was her motive.

    This is actually an excellent example of the way that people in different Quadras misinterpret the motives of each other. I see this most easily when dealing with people in the opposite Quadra (Alpha), but it also happened all the time in my interactions with Deltas. Including my mother, father, wife and son.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrainlessSquid View Post
    How much did you talk to each other before dating?

    It took me 5 months to connect with my dual, before that we never had any real conversation.
    Get to know him better and address his needs. That will make him more attracted and will want to reciprocate.

    If you feel your important needs aren't being met, try discussing. If that doesn't work, there's no point in being lovers, you should be friends.
    Not enough in my opinion, long story short we went on a couple dates and he told me he had started getting feelings for me really early on, he started pushing for things to get more serious, I didn’t know how I felt for him yet and felt sceptical about rushing in due to past bad experiences, I said we don’t know each other that well yet. He said he doesn’t feel comfortable opening up more until we have become more serious but argued that he sees great potential in our relationship and he is certain of his feelings. After a bit of back and fourth we must’ve become official around 2 months after meeting, and must’ve been together for around 3 months now.

    We made an active effort to get to know each other through talking and asking questions from the first date, but now it feels as though I’ve hit a wall and don’t know how to get further. I suppose I’ve just been waiting for him to open up in his own time, but he’s told me he needs a lot of coaxing, encouragement and positive feedback to open up, I try the best I can but I don’t feel confident in how I would go about it, or if I can provide the comfort he needs, I’d like to learn how to, but it makes me very confused.

    I want to reiterate that we communicate openly, and issues I address in this thread I’ve also addressed with him. Our relationship feels functional and like we are able to handle most things well, the most fundamental needs are being met, it’s just these smaller confusions like I mentioned above that make me feel incapable. That’s why I’ve turned to socionics to see if I can better understand these differences and what I can do so I can meet his needs as best as I can and make things as good as possible.

    With your dual, was there any way in particular he acted which made you comfortable opening up to him more?
    Last edited by yuucifer; 06-23-2024 at 01:01 PM.

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    I say brilliant things sporadically BrainlessSquid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Not enough in my opinion, long story short we went on a couple dates and he told me he had started getting feelings for me really early on, he started pushing for things to get more serious, I didn’t know how I felt for him yet and felt sceptical about rushing in due to past bad experiences, I said we don’t know each other that well yet. He said he doesn’t feel comfortable opening up more until we have become more serious but argued that he sees great potential in our relationship and he is certain of his feelings. After a bit of back and fourth we must’ve become official around 2 months after meeting, and must’ve been together for around 3 months now.

    We made an active effort to get to know each other through talking and asking questions from the first date, but now it feels as though I’ve hit a wall and don’t know how to get further. I suppose I’ve just been waiting for him to open up in his own time, but he’s told me he needs a lot of coaxing, encouragement and positive feedback to open up, I try the best I can but I don’t feel confident in how I would go about it, or if I can provide the comfort he needs, I’d like to learn how to, but it makes me very confused.

    I want to reiterate that we communicate openly, and issues I address in this thread I’ve also addressed with him. Our relationship feels functional and like we are able to handle most things well, the most fundamental needs are being met, it’s just these smaller confusions like I mentioned above that make me feel incapable. That’s why I’ve turned to socionics to see if I can better understand these differences and what I can do so I can meet his needs as best as I can and make things as good as possible.

    With your dual, was there any way in particular he acted which made you comfortable opening up to him more?
    From what I can see, you two have not spent a fair amount of time together yet. I feel sorry that he was so quick to make things happen.. in the beginning stages it can feel like fate plays a role.

    It seems to me that he's not very experienced in the realm of intimate relationships, and has acted almost completely out of desperation. Sorry to say that..

    On the other hand, from what I see, the relationship does resemble (duality/semi-duality).

    He probably needs some time to connect with his strongest functions, because duality only feels like duality when the partners are able to tickle each other on purpose through dom-inf channels.

    Duality in fact is something spiritual. It will teach you fundamental life lessons and guide you into your life's purpose..

    Also, you seem like an ILE (just an impression) to me.

    With my dual, as an IEE, I did most of the initiation and progression of the relationship. My dual was the one to keep me on track when times got a little tough and I wanted to break it in the beginning. We had lots of misunderstandings in the beginning and sporadically something comes up, but for reasons outside of socionics.

    But to sum up, I have to say that duals need to learn to rely on their strengths, and I believe some challenge is needed to make the relationship stick.

    And about opening up.. it has a lot to do with timing.. it's still too early. I think you two shouldn't have "officialized" things so quickly, especially that it does seem like duality, which is a universe in itself
    Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
    Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
    Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
    Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
    Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Either way, XNXX relations seem to be too much head and heart and not enough body. That's what I experienced dating an ILI as an EII at least. I know as an EII guy jokes about being the gf in the relationship are probably just as bad as actually being pegged lol holy cow that's brutal.
    This seems to be part of the problem, a lot of talk, too little seems to come out of it. With an ESI partner I would just bring up an idea, that would excite him and he would be the driving force while I sorted the logistics, things just naturally seemed to come into action and we had so many projects that we worked on together which is what made us feel close. It doesnít happen like this with my new partner, we are not that good at collaborating on things, we either do the things that need to be done by our own or we forget about it after the initial ďideasĒ phase, which is a huge part of bonding for me that feels like it goes missing.

    I will elaborate more on the sensing needs like you asked a bit later once I have some more time to write, (I have written a bit about why I feel like Iím not able to meet his sensing needs in other replies as well).

    As for the jokes, I wouldnít worry for his sake, as far as Iím aware it doesnít make him insecure about his masculinity and heís in on the joke (I also wouldnít even be shocked if he asked me to peg him or at least joked about it). Weíre from an area where people are less rigid about gender roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    As an infantile, if a girl ever told me this I would be fully convinced that she loved me. My mind would believe there's no way in hell she's doing that unless she loves me.
    I'd probably be weirded out, and maybe offended. I think there are big differences in the "same" romance style across quadras though (Delta vs. Alpha caregiving/infantilism, Gamma vs. Beta aggressing/victiming)

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    This seems to be part of the problem, a lot of talk, too little seems to come out of it. With an ESI partner I would just bring up an idea, that would excite him and he would be the driving force while I sorted the logistics, things just naturally seemed to come into action and we had so many projects that we worked on together which is what made us feel close. It doesn’t happen like this with my new partner, we are not that good at collaborating on things, we either do the things that need to be done by our own or we forget about it after the initial “ideas” phase, which is a huge part of bonding for me that feels like it goes missing.
    yuucifer, this inability to work seamlessly with your EII is what I meant when I said that LIE and EII can't motivate each other.

    When I first started looking at my EII secretary as a Possible, I asked her to help me brainstorm some new projects. She had some great suggestions, but they all went nowhere because we couldn't properly assign responsibilities. I tried and tried and tried to work more closely with her, but both she and I consistently dropped the ball and then forgot about it entirely.

    Contrast that with the ESIs that I've worked with. "We came, we saw, we conquered." Effortlessly. When one of us was lagging, a word from the other would get the person back on track with no hard feelings, but rather would leave both of us feeling more positive about the other, because we knew we could depend on them.

    I work with a woman who is an ESI artist. I met her because I saw one of her artworks and I wanted to buy it. We met several times to discuss the work, and when I eventually went over to her studio to pay for the commission, we talked and talked, for about an hour, and I actually realized at that moment that I was in love with her. FML. That has never happened to me before. She walked out to feed her horses, I followed, and she said, in typical ESI Fi/Se fashion, "Now I have to shovel their shit. You really have to love an animal to shovel their shit." I laughed at that, but it meant that she'd be a great mother to her children.
    She asked me then to help her with another project she was working on. We walked over to some materials, and without needing to speak, we moved them into her studio.
    We're on the same page. We work together seamlessly, and yes, I'm logistics and money (protection and public face) and she's motivation and content. We get a lot done when we work together.* If she were straight, I'd marry her in a heartbeat. Hell, I'd marry her whether she was straight or not, but she doesn't see things that way.

    Whereas, with the EII, I think we both came to see that we were not meant for each other, outside of a professional relationship.

    *

    In my relationship with the ESI artist, my job is to drop off a stack of money and to point the way, and she spends whatever she needs to accomplish the goal. Here she is, doing exactly that, for my new bathroom: https://imgur.com/a/zmZfucZ
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-23-2024 at 06:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrainlessSquid View Post
    From what I can see, you two have not spent a fair amount of time together yet. I feel sorry that he was so quick to make things happen.. in the beginning stages it can feel like fate plays a role.

    It seems to me that he's not very experienced in the realm of intimate relationships, and has acted almost completely out of desperation. Sorry to say that..

    On the other hand, from what I see, the relationship does resemble (duality/semi-duality).

    He probably needs some time to connect with his strongest functions, because duality only feels like duality when the partners are able to tickle each other on purpose through dom-inf channels.

    Duality in fact is something spiritual. It will teach you fundamental life lessons and guide you into your life's purpose..

    Also, you seem like an ILE (just an impression) to me.

    With my dual, as an IEE, I did most of the initiation and progression of the relationship. My dual was the one to keep me on track when times got a little tough and I wanted to break it in the beginning. We had lots of misunderstandings in the beginning and sporadically something comes up, but for reasons outside of socionics.

    But to sum up, I have to say that duals need to learn to rely on their strengths, and I believe some challenge is needed to make the relationship stick.

    And about opening up.. it has a lot to do with timing.. it's still too early. I think you two shouldn't have "officialized" things so quickly, especially that it does seem like duality, which is a universe in itself
    I got the impression he was acting out of desperation as well, I confronted him about this and he denied that this was the case, which could be a lack of self awareness but I do think he is a self aware person and he does have a fair amount of relationship experience based on what I know, I donít know much about what those experiences were like as thatís something heís not fully opened up about yet.. Only that they seem to have been rather painful.

    I do somewhat understand his point of view as I showed a lot of uncertainty about my feelings in the beginning and he told me he would rather leave before his feelings for me grew too strong and he would end up heartbroken. It was still definitely not ideal though.

    This does make it seem weíre not duals to me, I think we were both looking for reassurance when we were feeling doubt at the start of the relationship, just like you mention your dual provided for you, instead we were both met with more uncertainty by the other.

    I think youíre right that we just need more time, heís told me himself he will open up more with time as well.

    Iíve also made the realisation that I myself have been holding back my lead function around him. Heís a bit older than me and further into his career and I felt it was disrespectful to talk to him as if I know better. I asked him about it and he told me he finds my advice really helpful and that I help him see the logic in things. Hopefully that knowledge should bring us closer together.

    As for being an ILE, I have considered it before, but feel fairly certain Iím Fi seeking rather than Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    I got the impression he was acting out of desperation as well, I confronted him about this and he denied that this was the case, which could be a lack of self awareness but I do think he is a self aware person and he does have a fair amount of relationship experience based on what I know, I don’t know much about what those experiences were like as that’s something he’s not fully opened up about yet.. Only that they seem to have been rather painful.

    I do somewhat understand his point of view as I showed a lot of uncertainty about my feelings in the beginning and he told me he would rather leave before his feelings for me grew too strong and he would end up heartbroken. It was still definitely not ideal though.

    This does make it seem we’re not duals to me, I think we were both looking for reassurance when we were feeling doubt at the start of the relationship, just like you mention your dual provided for you, instead we were both met with more uncertainty by the other.

    I think you’re right that we just need more time, he’s told me himself he will open up more with time as well.

    I’ve also made the realisation that I myself have been holding back my lead function around him. He’s a bit older than me and further into his career and I felt it was disrespectful to talk to him as if I know better. I asked him about it and he told me he finds my advice really helpful and that I help him see the logic in things. Hopefully that knowledge should bring us closer together.

    As for being an ILE, I have considered it before, but feel fairly certain I’m Fi seeking rather than Fe.
    That's interesting.. it shows you have a good panorama of the situation and know exactly what's going on and how the relation developed and the pitfalls you have encountered.

    Just as a final comment (I think you know what to do)
    relying on your strengths (even if it brings arguments), overcoming challenges together, successfully resolving misunderstandings (through open conversation), showing mutual appreciation, and not being together all the time (even though sometimes it's the opposite) has an immense power of merging people and creating the desired polarity which augments mutual attraction and strong feelings.
    Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
    Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
    Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
    Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
    Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!

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    Oh, Jeez, yuucifer. I forgot to mention another data point.

    I have a LIE investment counselor neighbor, age 37, who had a bunch of GF's and then finally married Emily, an incredibly nice and respectable grade-school teacher who is also EII. They were married for about four years, and last year, she divorced him. She was out of that marriage like the woman imagined here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P5jV4lHHR0

    He was pretty broken up about it, because,........1D Fi. He tried and tried to keep her, but he just could not satisfy the relationship needs that she had. He even asked me how he could keep her, but at that point, it was far too late.

    So close, and yet, so far. He's just not an LSE. Not that he was trying very hard to be one for most of his marriage, or that he could keep that facade going for any length of time.


    Also, I think you might be LIE-Te subtype, both from your clean-lines avatar picture (an LIE-Ni would have some dark, Ni theme there), and because you are leaning towards an Fi-dom EII. An LIE-Ni would want someone like an SEE-Fi or an SLI-Te to tell them what to do in the real world.
    Your writing is very declarative, very clear. It doesn't seem Ni-dreamy and questioning to me.

    For the record, I know about thirty LIEs in real life, and only four of them are with an ESI Dual. I don't know why that is, other than the fact that some of the LIEs have expressed contempt for feeler-types like ESIs. (Hey, when you're an asshole, why not take it to the ignorance limit?) The four LIEs who are married to ESIs are doing very well, professionally, and seem happy, on the whole.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-24-2024 at 05:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I'd probably be weirded out, and maybe offended. I think there are big differences in the "same" romance style across quadras though (Delta vs. Alpha caregiving/infantilism, Gamma vs. Beta aggressing/victiming)
    I mean if a girl is gonna do something as silly as fold my socks, something so small and practically useless, she has to care about me cuz why the hell would anybody fold my socks lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    yuucifer, this inability to work seamlessly with your EII is what I meant when I said that LIE and EII can't motivate each other.

    When I first started looking at my EII secretary as a Possible, I asked her to help me brainstorm some new projects. She had some great suggestions, but they all went nowhere because we couldn't properly assign responsibilities. I tried and tried and tried to work more closely with her, but both she and I consistently dropped the ball and then forgot about it entirely.

    Contrast that with the ESIs that I've worked with. "We came, we saw, we conquered." Effortlessly. When one of us was lagging, a word from the other would get the person back on track with no hard feelings, but rather would leave both of us feeling more positive about the other, because we knew we could depend on them.

    I work with a woman who is an ESI artist. I met her because I saw one of her artworks and I wanted to buy it. We met several times to discuss the work, and when I eventually went over to her studio to pay for the commission, we talked and talked, for about an hour, and I actually realized at that moment that I was in love with her. FML. That has never happened to me before. She walked out to feed her horses, I followed, and she said, in typical ESI Fi/Se fashion, "Now I have to shovel their shit. You really have to love an animal to shovel their shit." I laughed at that, but it meant that she'd be a great mother to her children.
    She asked me then to help her with another project she was working on. We walked over to some materials, and without needing to speak, we moved them into her studio.
    We're on the same page. We work together seamlessly, and yes, I'm logistics and money (protection and public face) and she's motivation and content. We get a lot done when we work together.* If she were straight, I'd marry her in a heartbeat. Hell, I'd marry her whether she was straight or not, but she doesn't see things that way.

    Whereas, with the EII, I think we both came to see that we were not meant for each other, outside of a professional relationship.

    *

    In my relationship with the ESI artist, my job is to drop off a stack of money and to point the way, and she spends whatever she needs to accomplish the goal. Here she is, doing exactly that, for my new bathroom: https://imgur.com/a/zmZfucZ
    Funny you said your job is money and to point the way. I said this same sorta thing to me EIE friend whose married to an SLE wife, pretty much compared him to a bow and her to an arrow. He was the vision and she was the get up and actually do it, which he always bragged about his wife being the one that actually gets shit done. And she always called him her rock, her foundation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Not enough in my opinion, long story short we went on a couple dates and he told me he had started getting feelings for me really early on, he started pushing for things to get more serious, I didnít know how I felt for him yet and felt sceptical about rushing in due to past bad experiences, I said we donít know each other that well yet. He said he doesnít feel comfortable opening up more until we have become more serious but argued that he sees great potential in our relationship and he is certain of his feelings. After a bit of back and fourth we mustíve become official around 2 months after meeting, and mustíve been together for around 3 months now.

    We made an active effort to get to know each other through talking and asking questions from the first date, but now it feels as though Iíve hit a wall and donít know how to get further. I suppose Iíve just been waiting for him to open up in his own time, but heís told me he needs a lot of coaxing, encouragement and positive feedback to open up, I try the best I can but I donít feel confident in how I would go about it, or if I can provide the comfort he needs, Iíd like to learn how to, but it makes me very confused.

    I want to reiterate that we communicate openly, and issues I address in this thread Iíve also addressed with him. Our relationship feels functional and like we are able to handle most things well, the most fundamental needs are being met, itís just these smaller confusions like I mentioned above that make me feel incapable. Thatís why Iíve turned to socionics to see if I can better understand these differences and what I can do so I can meet his needs as best as I can and make things as good as possible.

    With your dual, was there any way in particular he acted which made you comfortable opening up to him more?
    Honestly I'm not sure this is something that can be learned nor do I feel like this is anybody's job to do. If he's so sure about his feelings about you I don't see why he feels like he can't be open and honest with you. Having to coax somebody you are already in a relationship with sounds weird, once you're in the relationship I personally feel like that should not be a thing. Like I don't get this feeling of needing to hide from the person you are with.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 06-25-2024 at 12:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Funny you said your job is money and to point the way. I said this same sorta thing to me EIE friend whose married to an SLE wife, pretty much compared him to a bow and her to an arrow. He was the vision and she was the get up and actually do it, which he always bragged about his wife being the one that actually gets shit done. And she always called him her rock, her foundation.
    The four sociotypes echo in each of the four Quadras. They aren't replicated, exactly, but they echo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The best advice I was able to find came from a coupleís therapy pair who were able to predict with a very high certainty whether or not couples will stay together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnVSrCCSw4,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uazFBCDvVw

    Gottman is an ESI-Fi, and his wife might be LIE, so their own marriage is pretty stable.
    He basically said that couples make bids for attention, like, ďHey, look at that squirrel!Ē.
    They are basically asking ďAre you here for me when I need you?Ē
    If you donít look at the squirrel 95% of the time, your marriage is fucked.
    Now the question becomes, ďHow can I find someone who will look at my squirrel for the rest of our lives?Ē Who would be interested (share Quadra values) in what Iím interested in, forever?í Not just until they have seen every damned squirrel in the neighborhood.
    I believe that only Duals have that potential, and thatís why Iím stuck on trying to make a relationship with a high-horsepower, good-handling ESI that isnít rusted out and that doesnít have a history of crashes.
    Ah yes I remember reading about this when trying to figure out why my relationship was failing. Found it very interesting and I could definitely relate.. My partner did not answer majority of my bids despite being ESI, then again he was screwed up both at the ďfactoryĒ and by ďprevious ownersĒ, as you call it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    To me, when she said that, I interpreted her actions as a way to screw me over and get the upper hand in the relationship. And yet, I have always believed that she truly loved me and is a good person. It just didnít FEEL like ďloveĒ was her motive.

    This is actually an excellent example of the way that people in different Quadras misinterpret the motives of each other. I see this most easily when dealing with people in the opposite Quadra (Alpha), but it also happened all the time in my interactions with Deltas. Including my mother, father, wife and son.

    This is how I feel in the relationship, the quadra differences and mismatched romance styles seem to cause a lot of ďsubconscious miscommunicationĒ even though our lead and dual-seeking are matched.. I imagine he feels the same. Itís confusing, intellectually I donít doubt his feelings or that he cares for me I just struggle to feel it in my body.

    The other day he got bitter because i didnít take his hay fever seriously, he told me I wasnít being ďnurturingĒ. Iím Si PoLR, of course I donít take hay fever seriously, itís not personal!! I sometimes say ďpoor babyĒ whenever he complains about things. From my perspective Iím lightheartedly mocking him. I would never want anyone to call me a ďpoor babyĒ, if someone said this to me I would interpret it as friendly way of saying ďstop feeling bad for yourselfĒ. Now I realise he wants me to call him and treat him like a ďpoor babyĒ and gets upset if I donítÖ

    But I know Iím also guilty of acting bitter whenever he doesnít respond to my Victim style behaviour..

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    yuucifer, this inability to work seamlessly with your EII is what I meant when I said that LIE and EII can't motivate each other.

    When I first started looking at my EII secretary as a Possible, I asked her to help me brainstorm some new projects. She had some great suggestions, but they all went nowhere because we couldn't properly assign responsibilities. I tried and tried and tried to work more closely with her, but both she and I consistently dropped the ball and then forgot about it entirely.

    Contrast that with the ESIs that I've worked with. "We came, we saw, we conquered." Effortlessly. When one of us was lagging, a word from the other would get the person back on track with no hard feelings, but rather would leave both of us feeling more positive about the other, because we knew we could depend on them.
    Yeah this wouldnít be as big a problem to me if I didnít feel it was a big aspect of bonding for me, because I have other Se base friends in my life who I collaborate and work really well together with. But also in my last relationship doing things together and overcoming obstacles is what brought us closer together and strengthened our relationship, like you mention. My EII partner doesnít feel a need to reassure any ďstrengthĒ in our relationship in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Oh, Jeez, yuucifer. I forgot to mention another data point.

    I have a LIE investment counselor neighbor, age 37, who had a bunch of GF's and then finally married Emily, an incredibly nice and respectable grade-school teacher who is also EII. They were married for about four years, and last year, she divorced him. She was out of that marriage like the woman imagined here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P5jV4lHHR0

    He was pretty broken up about it, because,........1D Fi. He tried and tried to keep her, but he just could not satisfy the relationship needs that she had. He even asked me how he could keep her, but at that point, it was far too late.

    Interesting song (also my partner works at a school as well lol), I almost feel like Iíve been in this position before and that was before we were even a couple, feeling a lack of strength and reassurance that I can depend on him and our relationship. When things were uncertain he just chose to leave, I asked him if he didnít feel like being together was something worth fighting for and if he loves me like he says why is he giving up on me so easily. This feeling that he would give up and leave whenever things get tough makes me feel insecure. Like I mentioned I need to get it continuously proven to me that our relationship and his feelings for me are strong and steadfast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    As far as socionics goes, can you elaborate on how both your sensing needs aren't met. Examples?
    Lord Pixel, maybe somewhere in this mess above you can find some answers to what our sensing issues are, I was trying to write a concise answer for you but honestly couldnít make sense of exactly what goes wrong beyond just ďwe are not dualsĒ which is why I came to this forum to hopefully understand better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Also, I think you might be LIE-Te subtype, both from your clean-lines avatar picture (an LIE-Ni would have some dark, Ni theme there), and because you are leaning towards an Fi-dom EII. An LIE-Ni would want someone like an SEE-Fi or an SLI-Te to tell them what to do in the real world.
    Your writing is very declarative, very clear. It doesn't seem Ni-dreamy and questioning to me.
    Admittedly I havenít put enough thought into my subtype and find it a bit difficult to determine. If you have any good resources about them please do send them. If relationship history is any implication I am definitely drawn to IF types and particularly strong Fi types, although I do tend to feel the least sexual chemistry with Infantiles. I love SEEs as friends but donít know if I can imagine dating one, theyíre pretty bossy - I do in fact not like being told what to do - and I donít like the way they seem to toy with peopleís feelings.

    (Although in regards to my avatar itís an illustration from a cosmic horror comic, Uzumaki)


    Iím also curious as to how you manage to meet so many LIEs, I donít really know any, unless theyíre hiding in plain sight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Ah yes I remember reading about this when trying to figure out why my relationship was failing. Found it very interesting and I could definitely relate.. My partner did not answer majority of my bids despite being ESI, then again he was screwed up both at the “factory” and by “previous owners”, as you call it.
    All ESIs are not like this, although a lot are. Your best chance at finding a normal, secure ESI is to meet them when you are both in your twenties, because after that, all the Secures are locked up in relationships and only the Avoidants and Anxious are left. Take it from me, I know about this, because I'm way over thirty and I see this in the women in the dating pools.

    See Jeb Kinnison's book, "Bad Boyfriends", page 130, graph showing types over time. Also, his book "Avoidant: How to Love (or Leave) a Dismissive Partner", is the book that convinced me that, while I could change my Dismissive SLI-Te wife, I didn't actually want to keep her.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    This is how I feel in the relationship, the quadra differences and mismatched romance styles seem to cause a lot of “subconscious miscommunication” even though our lead and dual-seeking are matched.. I imagine he feels the same. It’s confusing, intellectually I don’t doubt his feelings or that he cares for me I just struggle to feel it in my body.

    The other day he got bitter because i didn’t take his hay fever seriously, he told me I wasn’t being “nurturing”. I’m Si PoLR, of course I don’t take hay fever seriously, it’s not personal!! I sometimes say “poor baby” whenever he complains about things. From my perspective I’m lightheartedly mocking him. I would never want anyone to call me a “poor baby”, if someone said this to me I would interpret it as friendly way of saying “stop feeling bad for yourself”. Now I realise he wants me to call him and treat him like a “poor baby” and gets upset if I don’t…

    But I know I’m also guilty of acting bitter whenever he doesn’t respond to my Victim style behaviour..

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130308111655/https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/101-Erotic-Attitudes

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post
    Yeah this wouldn’t be as big a problem to me if I didn’t feel it was a big aspect of bonding for me, because I have other Se base friends in my life who I collaborate and work really well together with. But also in my last relationship doing things together and overcoming obstacles is what brought us closer together and strengthened our relationship, like you mention. My EII partner doesn’t feel a need to reassure any “strength” in our relationship in the first place.

    Interesting song (also my partner works at a school as well lol), I almost feel like I’ve been in this position before and that was before we were even a couple, feeling a lack of strength and reassurance that I can depend on him and our relationship. When things were uncertain he just chose to leave, I asked him if he didn’t feel like being together was something worth fighting for and if he loves me like he says why is he giving up on me so easily. This feeling that he would give up and leave whenever things get tough makes me feel insecure. Like I mentioned I need to get it continuously proven to me that our relationship and his feelings for me are strong and steadfast.


    People need to know that their partner is there when they need them. That's a big, big part of any solid relationship.

    I included that song because I have come to realize that my core fear is losing love. This is because realized at a very young age (maybe four) that my mother didn't love me, and for a kid, that's life-threatening-level trauma. I've papered over the cracks as I've gotten older, but I still claim not to be hurt when a relationships go bad, while I shield my eviscerated heart with my bare hands.
    Let me just say, it's a problem, when the factory fucks you up. To compensate for this, I need connection, and I'm slow to let someone into my life, particularly if I think I will care deeply about them. You are, hopefully, not screwed up in this manner, because I don't think that this is type-related.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post

    Lord Pixel, maybe somewhere in this mess above you can find some answers to what our sensing issues are, I was trying to write a concise answer for you but honestly couldn’t make sense of exactly what goes wrong beyond just “we are not duals” which is why I came to this forum to hopefully understand better.

    Admittedly I haven’t put enough thought into my subtype and find it a bit difficult to determine. If you have any good resources about them please do send them. If relationship history is any implication I am definitely drawn to IF types and particularly strong Fi types, although I do tend to feel the least sexual chemistry with Infantiles. I love SEEs as friends but don’t know if I can imagine dating one, they’re pretty bossy - I do in fact not like being told what to do - and I don’t like the way they seem to toy with people’s feelings.


    I can't see SEEs as romantic partners, either, although I know a female LIE who has three children by one. She won't marry him, of course, and she doesn't like him much and they don't live together, but when she's feeling weak and lonely, she calls him and she gets another kid.

    LIE and SEE both want to be on stage and they refuse to share the audience with anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post

    (Although in regards to my avatar it’s an illustration from a cosmic horror comic, Uzumaki)


    I’m also curious as to how you manage to meet so many LIEs, I don’t really know any, unless they’re hiding in plain sight.
    I didn't consciously know any LIEs until I was about twenty-eight or thirty, because I didn't know Socionics then. What I did know was that at that age, I started meeting guys who operated almost exactly like I do, because that's when I started my first company. LIEs basically run companies, so if you are a worker-bee, you probably won't meet them. If you are doing business with businesses, then you will meet them all the time. If you need to borrow money, you will meet LIEs. If you need to invest money, you will meet ILIs. If you are engaged in entrepreneurial work, you will meet LIEs.

    It wasn't until I learned Socionics (in the last eight years) that I had a name for these guys. At the time, I just liked them and got along great with them.

    The first female LIE that I met ran a hotel. The second was nick-named "Sledge", short for sledgehammer, and ran a division of GE. The third female LIE I met was my lesbian niece who was in the army (daughter of a distant cousin). The fourth I met on a dating site, and she worked at a University, distributing government funds. The fifth I met because she's in charge of my local bank branch.
    I met a sixth one (they are coming faster, now that I know what to look for) who was working the counter in a gas station, and I asked her why the hell she was wasting her time there? Her manager, or maybe the owner, got pretty mad at me,* but fuck him. It makes no sense to waste a life which has so much potential, just because a person doesn't yet know what they are capable of doing.

    I actually first started seeing what I might be capable of doing by watching older LIEs. I'd say to myself, "I know exactly why he did that, and I can probably do it, too. I also know where he screwed up, because I'd do the exact same thing if I hadn't seen him do it first."
    I have found that I've learned best by watching LIEs, but there aren't many of them in the population, and you have to already be doing what they do in order to meet them in the first place. It's a Catch-22, unless you get lucky.



    *He was a middle-manager Authoritarian type, so he didn't really have a big picture, and she was probably the best employee he'd ever had, so he really, really did not want to lose her. Also, I got the impression that he was slightly afraid of her. Which is not unusual. I don't think she realized that, but then again she was pretty young. The woman I mentioned above, "Sledge", was nice enough if you didn't waste her time, but was hard as hard can be by default. She and I got along great. No one who knew the two of us could believe how well we got along together (from which I infer that maybe I'm not the easiest guy to get along with, either, although I think I'm just the nicest guy ever), but when you are talking to an Identical, a crystal-clear communications channel opens up, and that feels great for both of you, as long as you have information to share.

    Post Script:
    If you don't have any LIEs in your life, use Winston Wolf as an example:
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/winst...-david-rogers/

    Also, the best business book for LIEs is Up the Organization, by Robert Townsend. You can get a copy on eBay.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-27-2024 at 04:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuucifer View Post


    Lord Pixel, maybe somewhere in this mess above you can find some answers to what our sensing issues are,
    .
    Sure did.

    But I know I’m also guilty of acting bitter whenever he doesn’t respond to my Victim style behaviour.


    The victim needs:


    Like I mentioned I need to get it continuously proven to me that our relationship and his feelings for me are strong and steadfast.


    Not just victim style though, Ni and Se needs in general.

    For example did you hear about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard case? Depp (EII), and Heard I believe is (ESI). And aside from the domestic violence, her entire issue with Johnny Depp was this:


    When things were uncertain he just chose to leave, I asked him if he didn’t feel like being together was something worth fighting for and if he loves me like he says why is he giving up on me so easily. This feeling that he would give up and leave whenever things get tough makes me feel insecure.


    She would ask Depp "Why do you always leave when things get hard, you don't fight for me, for us!" Johnny Depp being Si's response was he did not like the stress those heated fights brought him and he wanted Heard to talk to him calmly. Big sensing clash between them two. I had this same sorta clash with an EIE friend, anytime we had an arguement (alot of the times it was about something absolutely stupid), he'd get to a point where he was just YELLING. When he yelled I shut completely down, because his yelling made me physically uncomfortable, and when I did that he'd only get more mad and the problem would just compound on itself. His Se/Fe disturbed me Si/Fi and there wasn't much fixing it except distance.

    I also want to point out my personal mindset about something you said because I noticed when I dated a ILI she said something very similar to what you said here:

    But also in my last relationship doing things together and overcoming obstacles is what brought us closer together and strengthened our relationship, like you mention. My EII partner doesn’t feel a need to reassure any “strength” in our relationship in the first place.


    When I dated an ILI girl she told me that she wanted us to go through tough times, so we would b stronger because of it, like it was bonding. One of her fantasies was her seeing us grow old together and see all the battle scars we been through. This, was very weird to me personally. First to me I don't immediately see tough times as bonding (even though I can see howit CAN be). and second, I figure that life is already hard and will already provide obstacles and tough times so there is no need to go LOOKING for them, let us enjoy the times of peace and try and avoid the tough times if we can, because God knows we are gonna have to deal with some. My mindset is prevent tough times, her's was endure them. We thoguht very differently about that. Maybe the guy you're with thinks the same.

    Also I'm curious what was his answer to this?


    I asked him if he didn’t feel like being together was something worth fighting for and if he loves me like he says why is he giving up on me so easily.
    But overall I think the issue is effort vs ease. Se looks forward to effort "relationships take WORK!" Si seeks ease "if you are meant for each other it's natural and doesn't take much effort." Which is probably why EII doesn't feel the need to do this:

    My EII partner doesn’t feel a need to reassure any “strength” in our relationship in the first place.


    Because he probably thinks things should be effortless if you two are truly compatible. The lack of effort to him is a sign of compatibility while maybe to you the effort to fight is a sign of compatibility. Either way we all know relationships take work, the question is how much and how much is worth it.


    Si also might think sometimes people try to force something to work that might not be worth it and cut their losses because is all this stress worth this relationship. Idk what Se or Ni think contrary to that.


    The other day he got bitter because i didn’t take his hay fever seriously, he told me I wasn’t being “nurturing”. I’m Si PoLR, of course I don’t take hay fever seriously, it’s not personal!! I sometimes say “poor baby” whenever he complains about things. From my perspective I’m lightheartedly mocking him. I would never want anyone to call me a “poor baby”, if someone said this to me I would interpret it as friendly way of saying “stop feeling bad for yourself”. Now I realise he wants me to call him and treat him like a “poor baby” and gets upset if I don’t…


    Yea he's probably expecting mother instincts in you to manifest or something. But this is awkward to admit that this is what a guy wants because of the stigma around it, but I also imagine it might be rough to be a girl with aguy expecting this from you because the expectation for women to be nurturing. Either way it's psychologically messy ngl.


    So yea, hopefully that provided some insight, maybe you can ask him some questions to get his perspective on somethings and see if that's something you could tolerate long term.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 06-27-2024 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiorale View Post
    Possible explanations for the difference:

    IxI's suggestive Se always senses threat and danger. A comfortable life feels "fake" because all the dangers are hidden. Only when they can see the dangers clearly can they feel they are living an honest life, utilizing all their skills and strengths in a meaningful way (overcoming what they fear the most).

    IEI: more interpersonal struggles (Te polr sometimes interpreting natural events as deliberate victimization from others)
    ILI: more self-reliance training (Fe polr not seeing how they can get help from others)

    LII's Se polr does not see things that way. Fe issues are more important for LIIs to solve (which ILI may not be aware, and IEI would solve in a different way from LII).
    Interesting, that fear def makes sense for Se suggestive types. I think SLI and SEI have similar fears. I think SLE and SEE might have fears of wasted efforts. Probably why I hear alot of types that Ni/Se say "Let's build together."

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiorale View Post
    SLI and SEI: suggestive Ne leading to the fear of looking ignorant/saying the wrong things. Of course this is not an uncommon fear, but SxIs tend to be very cautious in what they say especially when in new/unfamiliar environments.

    SLE and SEE: suggestive Ni leading to fear of going down the wrong life path/make the wrong life decision? Again not an uncommon fear. But compared to Ni types who may be over-confident following their own chosen path/obsessions that might not lead to fruition in Se reality, Se types are more cautious and would more readily observe and take the advice from other people (role Ne also at play here)
    Hm makes sense and I can def agree with SLE/SEE except them taking advice, those types seem to mostly learn from experience more than anything else and usually ignore hyptheticals. They need 2 try and see what happens themselves.

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    Just saw this video the other day and she pretty much says alot of what I said and how I think too, and she comes off like a classic conservative delta caregiver type. starting at 21:05 right after the tiktok chick.


    https://youtu.be/LONyalDBAzQ?si=MJDE...Xi5&t=1264



    That's in contrast with this guy, who I have no idea his type. I just watched the 1st minute or so.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Sure did.



    The victim needs:




    Not just victim style though, Ni and Se needs in general.

    For example did you hear about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard case? Depp (EII), and Heard I believe is (ESI). And aside from the domestic violence, her entire issue with Johnny Depp was this:




    She would ask Depp "Why do you always leave when things get hard, you don't fight for me, for us!" Johnny Depp being Si's response was he did not like the stress those heated fights brought him and he wanted Heard to talk to him calmly. Big sensing clash between them two. I had this same sorta clash with an EIE friend, anytime we had an arguement (alot of the times it was about something absolutely stupid), he'd get to a point where he was just YELLING. When he yelled I shut completely down, because his yelling made me physically uncomfortable, and when I did that he'd only get more mad and the problem would just compound on itself. His Se/Fe disturbed me Si/Fi and there wasn't much fixing it except distance.

    I also want to point out my personal mindset about something you said because I noticed when I dated a ILI she said something very similar to what you said here:



    When I dated an ILI girl she told me that she wanted us to go through tough times, so we would b stronger because of it, like it was bonding. One of her fantasies was her seeing us grow old together and see all the battle scars we been through. This, was very weird to me personally. First to me I don't immediately see tough times as bonding (even though I can see howit CAN be). and second, I figure that life is already hard and will already provide obstacles and tough times so there is no need to go LOOKING for them, let us enjoy the times of peace and try and avoid the tough times if we can, because God knows we are gonna have to deal with some. My mindset is prevent tough times, her's was endure them. We thoguht very differently about that. Maybe the guy you're with thinks the same.

    Also I'm curious what was his answer to this?




    But overall I think the issue is effort vs ease. Se looks forward to effort "relationships take WORK!" Si seeks ease "if you are meant for each other it's natural and doesn't take much effort." Which is probably why EII doesn't feel the need to do this:



    Because he probably thinks things should be effortless if you two are truly compatible. The lack of effort to him is a sign of compatibility while maybe to you the effort to fight is a sign of compatibility. Either way we all know relationships take work, the question is how much and how much is worth it.


    Si also might think sometimes people try to force something to work that might not be worth it and cut their losses because is all this stress worth this relationship. Idk what Se or Ni think contrary to that.




    Yea he's probably expecting mother instincts in you to manifest or something. But this is awkward to admit that this is what a guy wants because of the stigma around it, but I also imagine it might be rough to be a girl with aguy expecting this from you because the expectation for women to be nurturing. Either way it's psychologically messy ngl.


    So yea, hopefully that provided some insight, maybe you can ask him some questions to get his perspective on somethings and see if that's something you could tolerate long term.
    Thanks for explaining your point of view it’s very insightful I can’t believe I didn’t realise this difference earlier


    To me, hardships and issues are inevitable because there will always be external factors beyond our control and only by observing how they react to problems early on can I predict how they would react later on (if he can’t handle a small problem now, what does that say about his capabilities to handle a bigger one a couple years down the line).


    Although it may be especially true for me because I make a lot of risky and ambitious life choices that end up putting me in tough positions, as opposed to an Si type who would be avoiding and preventing that sort of discomfort in the first place like you say. It’s not that I necessarily look for obstacles, but moreso that I tend to underestimate them and disregard the discomfort they will bring me in my decision making. I suppose this is why I’m best complemented by someone with high Se, who brings the strength to get through the discomfort my risky decisions bring, while he would benefit from an Si type who doesn’t put him through that sort of stress.


    Although relationship wise I do put up tiny obstacles to “test” my partner due to the reasons above (as one does as a Victim…), like I said I do it in order to gauge how they will act in future situations. The earlier I feel reassured by how they handle problems, the more confident I feel in committing to a future with them.


    This usually results in me acting a bit difficult early on to “filter out” the ones who can’t handle it, although I’ve come to realise through experience that people have different mindsets regarding this even though I fully haven’t understood their point of view.. One of them being the SEI I was dating briefly before he ended things because he essentially looked at it the other way around, he said to me “if there are this many struggles this early on, what does that say about how many struggles our relationship will have in the future”. He had the exact mindset you mention, that if we are compatible, there shouldn’t be any struggles. I also did agree we weren’t compatible but for different reasons, but ever since then I try to go less heavy with my “Victim approach”…




    In regards to how my EII partner responded, he told me that while what we have is very special to him, it wasn’t worth the risk of being put through more pain and heartbreak like he has in past relationships (I didn’t want to commit to the relationship yet because I felt we hadn’t spent enough time together yet for me to know if it was the right decision). Like I mentioned I protested, and after a bit of back and forth I told him I that despite how upsetting it is I can’t force him to stick by me and that I respect his decision.


    He ended up calling me back the next day saying he had changed his mind, that based on how upset I got I was probably more emotionally invested than the both of us thought (I told him I already knew I was emotionally invested!!) and he was willing to stay with me. The fact that he came back to me in turn reassured me.


    The same thing essentially repeated one more time, and after he came back once more I felt reassured enough to make our relationship official. Ever since we did we both feel secure in each other’s commitment, but have occasional hiccups and misunderstandings like the ones I’ve mentioned. We’re working to understand each other better, every hiccup is a learning experience, I suppose time will tell how well we can manage, or if our lifestyles are too incompatible. I’ll have a conversation with him about some of the things you’ve brought up.

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