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Thread: Why are many LIIs (INTj) self-destructive?

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    Default Why are many LIIs (INTj) self-destructive?

    After observing many LIIs over many years, it seems to me that this type is the most likely of all Sociotypes to withdraw from society, from family, and from their close friends, and can become very self-destructive.

    Any thoughts on why this might or might not be the case?

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    Jung has described it quite well

    With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Foreign influences are eliminated; he becomes more unsympathetic to his peripheral world, and therefore more dependent upon his intimates. His expression becomes more personal and inconsiderate and his ideas more profound, but they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand. This lack is replaced by emotivity and susceptibility. The foreign influence, brusquely declined from without, reaches him from within, from the side of the unconscious, and he is obliged to collect evidence against it and against things in general which to outsiders seems quite superfluous. Through the subjectification of consciousness occasioned by his defective relationship to the object, what secretly concerns his own person now seems to him of chief importance. And he begins to confound his subjective truth with his own person. Not that he will attempt to press anyone personally with his convictions, but he will break out with venomous and personal retorts against every criticism, however just. Thus in every respect his isolation gradually increases. His originally fertilizing ideas become destructive, because poisoned by a kind of sediment of bitterness. His struggle against the influences emanating [p. 489] from the unconscious increases with his external isolation, until gradually this begins to cripple him. A still greater isolation must surely protect him from the unconscious influences, but as a rule this only takes him deeper into the conflict which is destroying him within.

    The thinking of the introverted type is positive and synthetic in the development of those ideas which in ever increasing measure approach the eternal validity of the primordial images. But, when their connection with objective experience begins to fade, they become mythological and untrue for the present situation. Hence this thinking holds value only for its contemporaries, just so long as it also stands in visible and understandable connection with the known facts of the time. But, when thinking becomes mythological, its irrelevancy grows until finally it gets lost in itself. The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed. The various measures of self-defence, the curious protective obstacles with which such people are wont to surround themselves, are sufficiently familiar, and I may, therefore, spare myself a description of them. They all serve as a defence against 'magical' influences; a vague dread of the other sex also belongs to this category.


    (Chapter X: The introverted thinking type)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I'm not sure what you mean by self-destructive, but as far as withdrawal goes, 1D Se and low F has a lot to do with it. ILI I think can seem similar in this at least. I think they can be even more reclusive than LII.

    For LII though, they/we tend to have very little personal ambition. There is a lot of casual malice that goes on in day-to-day interactions in many places. Generally LII are not very good at dealing with emotional politics, and hate that kind of thing anyway. The easiest solution is to avoid those environments in the first place, and since the type doesn't tend to have strong desires that would motivate them to remain, it's easy to leave. Other people hang around both because it's easier for them and because they have more reason to, so this is not so much of a problem.

    You would hope that close friendships and family would be different. I don't know if there's a general answer to why LII you see break off those relationships. I barely talk to my family because I carry a lot of resentment from how I was raised. My sister suffered a similar experience, she carries resentment, but she pretends not to. I don't think I could understand why she reacts like she does even if she tried to explain it, and I don't know that my priorities would make sense to anyone else either. Other people's circumstances are different. Maybe the LIIs you knew were mistreated, or felt mistreated but weren't, or they just didn't appreciate their friends for whatever reason, but I don't know if there's any general motivation behind this, especially one that can easily be put into words.

    Anecdotally, I have an LII uncle. He has reclusive and depressive tendencies, but seems to do the most of anyone else to try to keep his immediate and extended family together and resolve the frequent conflicts that arise.

    More speculative and personal thoughts --

    I would say that I've become something of a hermit, but it's not really by choice. It's difficult for me to get close to people. Part of it is that I dislike many people, or their approaches to things, and I'm not willing to pretend otherwise. The other part of it is that I genuinely have trouble understanding and relating to people. My understanding of friendship is on the level of a child's, and I don't think it's able to change. The duality between LII and ESE exists because ESEs are also childish at their core. The culture in most of the US, and where I live now, isn't in accord with this though. It's hard to explain to people who are used to it. Everyone seems invested in their own lives and you always need a reason for them to accept you into yours; you can't do something like simply invite someone to your house for dinner after a five-minute talk, or expect to be invited either. I grew up in the South where boundaries like this seemed much freer, and so maybe this is a cultural and not just typological problem for me.

    WRT to "self-destruction," though, again, I don't know what you mean, I can say that I've turned down several opportunities that would have materially benefited me. It's important for me to live with a clean self-image and conscience, and I don't like the image of myself I saw had I made different choices. Most of this I'm sure would be difficult to explain to most people.

    There is also a feeling I have that I should remain grounded and receptive. It is easy for LII to become judgemental, venomous, and closed if not restrained. Something like what Tallmo quoted. It's important to keep a sense of perspective not only of yourself but things greater than yourself. Sometimes waking up with a hangover, not sleeping, not eating, or burning bridges to stare into the abyss is the only way you can keep perspective of what's important.

    Speaking of @Tallmo's quotation, I wonder how much of himself Jung was describing. I dislike what I've understood of Jung's personality and career. It's not that he wasn't intelligent, but he was also foolish and self-important in a pretty distasteful way. I'm reminded that Jung's patients were comfortably middle-class. There's a kind of spiritual poison this class is subject to. Famously it was the class that formed the base of the Nazis' support; Jung himself collaborated with and expressed admiration for them. I don't know how else to explain or justify the moral aversion I feel to the kind of self-satisfied attitude I see with this kind of person. But if "self-destructive" behavior prevents me from becoming someone like Jung, or the person he describes, I would consider it a worthwhile sacrifice.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 03-06-2024 at 07:47 PM.

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    Feeding off of false mirage syndrome.

    Ti rules make up the distorted truth, and there you have built your self contained house, self feeding in a closed loop.

    Isolation is a mind killer, truth lies in objective reality.

    A walking brain in a jar needs integration. It depends on your environment to grow in fertile ground.

    The forum has an example of it here with false reasoning in a self deception.



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    my closest friend emotionally irl was LII. he became obese due to meds hhe had to take for asthma. his father forced him to read 50 pages a day as a kid. bc of it he lost motivation or maybe even ability to use his mind in conscious directed way. i'd experienced smth similar so i know how one can go insane from it and lose ability to self regulate and make decisions, but it wasnt as severe for me and it was later in life so i had much more flexibility. his intution picks things up, i argued with him a lot but in good faith not like arguing to put him down or condenscend on him, cuz i didnt know how he came to his conclusions or didnt agree with them. he couldn't verbalize it. he could do things automatically very well, but he'd have low resistance levle. also he experimented with diet to lose weight, and he said nothing worked as well as carnivore diet. but bc of bullying, his parents were toxic and emotionally abusive, he had no people who were close to him at school that i knew except me adn i was only there for 1 year, and he was bullied more after. i think he hadd 1 friend he got better along with, and some people sometimes, he also embarassed himself in a rather extreme way he was cutting himself whie laughing publicly so idk how u recover from that so to say. people tend to be impressionable although they also tend to be weird and fragile somteimes. so when trying to lose weight his father would pressure him to go vegan and also make and buy food that's the opposite of what he needed, and would emotionally manipulate him by guilt tripping him to eat it. he went to uni then, not many if any that i know friends there, abused by teachers and students as well, there's also a thing where like someone owned machines or stores or smth ppl buy food or things from, and they give each other for free, but he's ofc left paying, ppl forced him to do group projects, ofc some other ppl didnt work on them and he had to cover for them but there were stupid rules and or teachers and he'd be blamed or puinished for things out of his control. he had also some friends from before that would force him to spend time with them online while being abusive, and they could force him cuz they had some kind of threat over him. his uni also seems to have been accepting tasks from companies and making students complete them, which i think isnt legal and is not disclosed, but the uni was cheap or smth free hence he went in there. his landlords at some point banned him from using the heating or smth, which they also aren;t alllowed to do and there were messed up things like that. he'd also applied to get a job at some point and wasn't accepted, and it was smth manipulative again. he had a lot of repressed rage and would play video games, they are predatory and abusive too the ones he played, cuz the ones wh oaren't are usually rare, single player and u cant play them for hours and hours. so one example of abuse there is if you play against another person alone, there's agreement about rules and conditions where someone wins, but bc of how they made the game those rules are made by the ppl playing, so both people have to leave the game manually when the end game conditions are met. but some people would be bitter or controlling, so when they lose they stay inside the game and keep him hostage, cuz he cant leave if the other person doesnt leave, so he cant play on that account until the game is finished. or other times when someone would make fun of him in game, he'd become angry and play many games until he wins, but bc he was angry he could also keep losing which cmeans getting more angry and losing more. he was motivated many times to lose weight and did lose significant numbers but would also sometimes gain again. he kinda fell in love/had a crush on an INTJ ILI who was kinda distant and condenscending towards him, would try to push him away, i told him to leave her cuz what she was doing was cruel and manipulative, he didnt want to, so kept going until his patience ended, he sent her a speech about how she's been hurting him and that he doesnt want to interact with her again or smth. she was apologetic, and ia cutalyl felt bad cuz ok maybe she was immature clueless and wasnt realizing how off about him she was, and i tried to convince him ok mb shes listening but he wasnt having it he was done. i thought maybe he should have criticized her from the start so this doesnt happen, he didnt want to tell her anything bad. this was at a low point in his life as well and she was part of a group of ppl who were "his friends" but were emotionally abusing him. he hasnt tried to be in a relaitonship since or get emotionally close to a woman, or a man, that i know of.

    point is why would someone not self destruct if seemingly any attempts to do good, when already enduring so much, keep getting met with abuse opression failure and more obstacles, and the only things that feel good are addictive and make ur life worse somehow. a lot of people have hurt him and others even if not so bad towards him aren't giving him exactly what he wants or needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    After observing many LIIs over many years, it seems to me that this type is the most likely of all Sociotypes to withdraw from society, from family, and from their close friends, and can become very self-destructive.

    Any thoughts on why this might or might not be the case?
    I mean, I could tell you my reasons, but I can't promise it would make a lot of sense and I'd just be airing out all my issues. But the short of it is a soul-crushing disappointment with the all-encompassing selfishness of the human spirit - its narcissistic chaos and turmoil brings out a sense of constant agitation, anger, and loneliness. And it's tiresome and boring and "I" just want peace because one day I will be dead and it won't matter if I integrated with the toxicity of the world or not.

    It doesn't truly matter what I do, so I can just not care and be "true neutral" and not have to partake in family, friends, or pursuing business and corporate ladder bullshit. Those things all cause negative emotions when they are toxic and generally or most of the time they are.
    I mean I just left a job I was good at because my co-workers pretended to be friends, then backstabbed, the company made me borderline harass a manager to get a deserved promotion, then payroll didn't give the proper raise and spent months with an obscure "ticket" system for someone to do something about it, then I found out my managers were trying to give me less than what the minimum pay raise was for the promotion, sketchy shit. And I put up with it because I loved the work and was good at it and it gave me some kind of thrill to fix electronics on the component level. Something that you can't even do anymore because companies try to make it almost impossible to repair their electronics.
    And even now after I left, they won't send me a tax form I need and when I inquired about it and requested it a couple times and was originally supposed to get it beginning February, I couldn't get an answer, couldn't get an actual person to do anything, couldn't get any confirmation that it would be sent to me, even if I paid (and I asked), and just told to keep waiting. The conversation was recorded because I was going to get a lawyer to sue them if I get audited for having to write up the form myself and the lady wouldn't even send me an email to confirm we had a conversation and anything was actually going to be done. She said she had notes and I asked if in a court, would the notes still exist and she just didn't answer... and I just started laughing hysterically because every time I tried to get some kind of resolution the lady would give me crazy or vague answers about the form, "she thinks", has a wrong database header and wouldn't get sent out, but couldn't tell me what exactly that means, and I realized I'm being treated like a nobody, like always, like someone small and a number, a slave wage worker that no company can even be bothered to give a stupid form to. And this is pretty normal. And I don't even work there anymore. It's just all kind of a joke. Nobody really cares about anyone else. I get more people calling me to try and scam me then people that actually pretend to be my friend or pretend to care about me. Maybe you get some real friends that actually care or a partner that isn't just using you for money or a better lifestyle, but then there are billions of people that see your well-being as competition and something to be exploited for their benefit, it's just kind of mad, so why should I care? And I could complain about it, like I'm doing here, but nobody cares, so why should I? I could just do something like drive to the store and there will be at least one person driving recklessly, tailgating me, and flicking me off for driving the speed limit in the right lane. I mean I could go on, but it's just easier not to care. I'll go mad and become like the Unabomber or something and there are so many things worth experiencing, even if people pretty much suck. I can be like Yoda and not give a shit and have peace and some kind of non bullshit life. I mean seriously. After I left my job, I've had time to get my mental and physical health in order, start learning things in my hobbies that I actually enjoy and I'm having fun with little frustration. I'm even started trying to fix electronics myself just to see if it amounts to anything. Probably won't, but at least it's fun to try. I don't know, I know this is whiny and nobody cares and will just say I'm a weak person or some weird framing that I truly don't give a shit about, but that's me anything. Okay, this sort of turned into the long answer and that's not even the long answer lol. And I could probably use therapy, but even then, it would be a waste of money because I'd just be using the therapist to vent, not to change anything, because I already know what to change, I just prefer not to care because then I don't have to care.

    tldr; People, Generally, Suck. Or this
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    another LII is a diagnosd ASPD for drug use and minor theft. she also makse fun of ppl but tends to be bit private about it. she also seems easily scared and superificially judges some people for behaving a certain way, it can be kinda scathing, she's also not very emotionally available. people made up rumours about her allegedly, i honestly believe it cuz ppl tend to do excessive stuff to get rid of someone from social groups. she's also prolly autistic and maybe somewhat unaware when she does something wrong but simultaneously she misjudges someone else who's autistic cuz he finds friends who are also on his wavelength but she thinks he's not aware of how cringe he is and that he's not aware of how normies are friendly to him superficially and some are actually looking down on him, tho idk how discerning she is about whos a normie, whos also autistic, who's biaesd or wahtever. he is an ENTJ in mbti and he seems to VI as LIE to me as well, but she was insisting he's INFP. i think she's found security on some kind of high horse cuz she;s capable and adept in some ways but not in others and she doesnt want to make herself look too bad, her parents and ppl have been very critical of her, she's also adopted and of a different race, and bc of ppl rejecting her, i think she's developed a very low self esteem, and a mindset that she shouldn't even bother improving. she shared her drawings once with me and i laughed at them but bc they were funny, and at that time i was used to making fun of people's things and them of me and mine while having the mindset that u're not degrading them, like ofc things u do will look funny or be off about u but its not degrading. like idk if its related to the ASPD, i think personally developed my ASPD as a way to protect myself in a similar way from embarassment, but since i wasnt looking down on her like making fun of smth while looking down on it and being genuinely condenscending is different than just doing it bc its funny or in a warm way. so i think its very common in my country, besides others, for art and whatever interests u have to be degraded. so that LIE aws doing anime voice overs and she thought he was kinda bad at it and he thought he was better than he really was, also bc ppl may have been amping up his confidene, but ofc shes aware this may not be genuine on their part, like they can do it to make fun of him while he doesnt realize OR they can do it to him bc they are trying to be supportive and help him keep going, or be kinda malprocssing themselves and not realize he's not as good as he thinks he is, according to her perception that im infering, point is im thinking this may be related to her Se PoLR, she didnt push through criticisms and improve her art, she improved at school and is raising academically but this is the kind of thing ppl leave u alone about cuz they dont care or are impressed if u do smth they dont understand, while art is inherently sensitive and embarassing in comparison in our societies, what i said also can show some kind of calloussness guardedness, trauma about her, she doesnt know how to or can't push through the criticisms. Se PoLR may be related to aversion to improvement, wanting to do things htat are already easy or come easy to them too, bc improving intself makes u look bad cuz u're bad at doing what u're doing still and people try to prevent u from growing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Speaking of @Tallmo's quotation, I wonder how much of himself Jung was describing.
    The quote I posted is from the end of the Jung's Ti description. The quote starts with "With the intensification of his type...". That's important. Here he describes the consequences when Ti is overemphasizes. So it's not a part of the "normal", healthy type, but more like Ti type gone wrong. Of course there are many balanced, healthy LIIs out there, who don't have these problems. Jung has these negative descriptions for all types at the end of the section for each type. Just to make this clear. It's interesting to read them through for all 8 types.

    I don't think Jung is describing himself, because he is very aware of these problems, and it's pretty easy to find examples of imbalances in types in the real world. Jung is a very unique case because he went through individuation and it requires you to live out your personality both the good and the bad.

    About LII problems: One example: I know a LII who probably is too introverted and he dislikes an EIE. He says that the EIE creates a bad atmosphere and just has a "fake" attitude. So if the EIE is present the LII often leaves. I kindof agree with him, but I don't have Fe in inferior position and I am not as influenced by the EIE. It's ok, "people are people", is my attitude. I'm not gonna be friends with the EIE but I can stand him. So one should try to learn that a lot is actually projection. We can't expect the world to be tailored just for us.

    (I have my own problems with Ne, but I'm not gonna talk about it now)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Ti intensification. Putin rewrites history now, like North Korea had done already.


    LIIs become sobby, LSIs become destructive.

    I have not really noticed isolation just insistence on their own view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    My understanding of friendship is on the level of a child's, and I don't think it's able to change.
    How would you expand that thought? I'm asking because of the possible pattern that whole Alfa reflects possibly.

    LII and ILI I believe to be the most prone types to withdraw from society after some part of system let them down.

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    Introverts’ coping mechanisms are considered self-destructive and unacceptable compared to their counterparts. An Fe lead trying to cope by not reflecting and instead doubling down on socialization and work is far more acceptable even though they don’t learn from their mistakes ever. MBTI’s take of INTxs are the smortest isn’t real but in reality Extroverts do dictate the outside world - it’s very hard for us Introverts specially N types to cope when we have to mull things over because here are the things that we have to check in order for others to not lose their shit on us:
    - Socialize on the regular, do some daily catch up with people, share what’s up
    - Achieve some little things worthy of status and celebration
    - Be informed about many things that are relevant to the general populace (news is big, being able to share info that no one knows is also a big plus, political talks always give you plus points because it shows that you are educated)
    - Experience new things, this includes travel. This shows that you aren’t stagnant and you are still living.

    These four things go hand in hand. For example when you explore, you have new info to share.
    Compare that to, “I didn’t do anything, I was all alone because I was just wondering where my life is going and I’m trying to sort things out in my head.” You look like you’ve failed somehow. Good for you to be able go out now and share it with us because you staying inside the house is such a problem. For some reason smokers having a social moment in the smoking area or the drunks in bars are saner than you. Why is it? Because an Extrovert would never introvert unless they really hit rock bottom (and vice versa but we are not the status quo)

    Hope all super introverts are well-showered with their hair combed always. It’s your protection from the harsh judging world out there.

    #justiceForIntroverts #justiceForMiniJimi

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParrotEatingCarrot
    How would you expand that thought? I'm asking because of the possible pattern that whole Alfa reflects possibly.

    LII and ILI I believe to be the most prone types to withdraw from society after some part of system let them down.
    I have the idea that getting close to people and making friends requires a personal touch or connection I don't have and can't perceive. It's hard for me to speak about this since it's not something I understand; I can only say the only people I've been able to be friends with are people who have similar problems getting close to people, and Fe bases. Children are different from most adults in that if you act nicely to them they accept you, and if not they don't, and that's about all it takes with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I have the idea that getting close to people and making friends requires a personal touch or connection I don't have and can't perceive. It's hard for me to speak about this since it's not something I understand; I can only say the only people I've been able to be friends with are people who have similar problems getting close to people, and Fe bases. Children are different from most adults in that if you act nicely to them they accept you, and if not they don't, and that's about all it takes with them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expansion View Post
    Feeding off of false mirage syndrome.

    Ti rules make up the distorted truth, and there you have built your self contained house, self feeding in a closed loop.

    Isolation is a mind killer, truth lies in objective reality.

    A walking brain in a jar needs integration. It depends on your environment to grow in fertile ground.

    The forum has an example of it here with false reasoning in a self deception.
    Ti is not delusional, it can be abused/there can be a pathology of ap erson where the person’s mind is distorted, but thats not bc of Ti in itself.

    Extraverted types tend to be more carelss and inconsiderate of the conequences of their actions bc they focus on the external world and thus what’s physically or close in front of them, not the long rage complex interplay of whats happening.
    I wonder if type pathology in itself isnt somehow psychotic, bc learning things about the world and through experiences and faith and other things is how u also adapt and get molded or mold ur ways, but if u think ur problem is within ur type then u may lose ur way somehow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    Ti is not delusional, it can be abused/there can be a pathology of ap erson where the person’s mind is distorted, but thats not bc of Ti in itself.

    Extraverted types tend to be more carelss and inconsiderate of the conequences of their actions bc they focus on the external world and thus what’s physically or close in front of them, not the long rage complex interplay of whats happening.
    I wonder if type pathology in itself isnt somehow psychotic, bc learning things about the world and through experiences and faith and other things is how u also adapt and get molded or mold ur ways, but if u think ur problem is within ur type then u may lose ur way somehow.
    I appreciate your concerns.

    You are very conscientious is my forum observation, btw.



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    @Adam Strange

    The answer is IEI/EII. LII always go to these types looking to control their emotions, but they always lead them to loss (usually suicide). LII's need to look at LIE's.
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    Ti ability to percieve power dynamics + Se POLR weakening interest in social integration (appearances, competition, success, etc)

    it makes a type who feels "over" society

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyKnowing View Post
    @Adam Strange

    The answer is IEI/EII. LII always go to these types looking to control their emotions, but they always lead them to loss (usually suicide). LII's need to look at LIE's.
    @HolyKnowing, can you say more about this? I don't quite understand what you are saying.

    I will say that your timing is remarkable. This thread was inspired by an LII boss, whom I know, firing his long-time IEI secretary in a moment (as a result?) of his personal crisis. The crisis involved him failing to meet public expectations of his performance. So, I think that his firing of the IEI, who did absolutely nothing wrong, was a sort of mini-suicide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @HolyKnowing, can you say more about this? I don't quite understand what you are saying.

    I will say that your timing is remarkable. This thread was inspired by an LII boss, whom I know, firing his long-time IEI secretary in a moment (as a result?) of his personal crisis. The crisis involved him failing to meet public expectations of his performance. So, I think that his firing of the IEI, who did absolutely nothing wrong, was a sort of mini-suicide.
    I've seen this before. It's more likely that the IEI completely failed him on some level and he figured the IEI didn't have what it takes to redeem himself. He could voice what he wanted to the IEI, but that'd defeat the purpose of having the person of their own volition acknowledge their screw up (some IEIs don't know what they consider to be good isn't good to someone else and childishly try and force their own warped sense of morality). So, to rid himself of the IEI the LII tapped into his Conflictor (the SEE) and pulled a Donald Trump and essentially said with his actions (literally and figuratively) "you're fired, bitch."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep View Post
    I've seen this before. It's more likely that the IEI completely failed him on some level and he figured the IEI didn't have what it takes to redeem himself. He could voice what he wanted to the IEI, but that'd defeat the purpose of having the person of their own volition acknowledge their screw up (some IEIs don't know what they consider to be good isn't good to someone else and childishly try and force their own warped sense of morality). So, to rid himself of the IEI the LII tapped into his Conflictor (the SEE) and pulled a Donald Trump and essentially said with his actions (literally and figuratively) "you're fired, bitch."
    In my opinion, and my opinion here is pretty good, if I say so myself, the LII has absolutely no business in running his company. He is like a koala bear tossed out of an airplane with the expectation that he can fly, and he's headed straight for the ground while he thinks about this. He absolutely has no leadership qualities. He might be a fair manager and a decent human being on good days, but he sucks at leading people.

    He was friends with the IEI for about ten years before he hired her, so he should have known what he was getting into. From what I could see and from mutual friends, she was doing a good job. I called her after she was fired and she said he fired her for "revenge", whatever that means. I haven't parsed that statement yet, but he said to her on a call on a Sunday that the company didn't have money for her salary, which she knew to be an outright lie.
    It was a terrible way to let someone go.

    I honestly don't understand the way my LII sister's mind works, and I don't understand the way Alpha minds work in general. Which is why I made this tread.

    Incidentally, my LII sister has tried to commit suicide three times. Once, she had to have her blood exchanged at the hospital and slurred for years afterwards, and another time, the 9mm handgun at her head jammed. She seems to me to be a robot who doesn't understand why other people act emotionally the way they do. I get the impression that the conditions of being alive or dead aren't that different to her.

    The horrible thing is, I'm like that, too, but instead of lacking Fe, I lack Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In my opinion, and my opinion here is pretty good, if I say so myself, the LII has absolutely no business in running his company. He is like a koala bear tossed out of an airplane with the expectation that he can fly, and he's headed straight for the ground while he thinks about this. He absolutely has no leadership qualities. He might be a fair manager and a decent human being on good days, but he sucks at leading people.

    He was friends with the IEI for about ten years before he hired her, so he should have known what he was getting into. From what I could see and from mutual friends, she was doing a good job. I called her after she was fired and she said he fired her for "revenge", whatever that means. I haven't parsed that statement yet, but he said to her on a call on a Sunday that the company didn't have money for her salary, which she knew to be an outright lie.
    It was a terrible way to let someone go.

    I honestly don't understand the way my LII sister's mind works, and I don't understand the way Alpha minds work in general. Which is why I made this tread.

    Incidentally, my LII sister has tried to commit suicide three times. Once, she had to have her blood exchanged at the hospital and slurred for years afterwards, and another time, the 9mm handgun at her head jammed. She seems to me to be a robot who doesn't understand why other people act emotionally the way they do.

    The horrible thing is, I'm like that, too, but instead of lacking Fe, I lack Fi.
    Were you high when you wrote this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep View Post
    Were you high when you wrote this?
    No, just fatalistic.

    I haven't gotten high or drunk for at least ten years. I believe that everyone gets so many drinks and so many smokes and so many lines, and I've had all of mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    No, just fatalistic.

    I haven't gotten high or drunk for at least ten years. I believe that everyone gets so many drinks and so many smokes and so many lines, and I've had all of mine.
    I'm not so sure about what you're telling me is the truth, it's pretty zany, pretty wacky... That's suspiciously a lot of Ne for a type that wants to work himself to death managing a factory in the ghetto. Adam Strange, you're obviously a pothead that just so happens to be an LIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creep View Post
    I'm not so sure about what you're telling me is the truth, it's pretty zany, pretty wacky... That's suspiciously a lot of Ne for a type that wants to work himself to death managing a factory in the ghetto. Adam Strange, you're obviously a pothead that just so happens to be an LIE.
    Here is something you should know about LIEs. They don't verifiably lie. LIEs may make true but misleading statements, but only if there is profit in it. Otherwise, they don't misrepresent information, because if you don't have good information, you can't make good business decisions.

    Now, what I wrote is an accurate representation of what I believe I saw. But there may be other interpretations that can be inferred from my statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Here is something you should know about LIEs. They don't verifiably lie. LIEs may make true but misleading statements, but only if there is profit in it. Otherwise, they don't misrepresent information, because if you don't have good information, you can't make good business decisions.

    Now, what I wrote is an accurate representation of what I believe I saw. But there may be other interpretations that can be inferred from my statements.
    So then, it's just like your opinion, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anotherperson View Post
    Ti ability to percieve power dynamics + Se POLR weakening interest in social integration (appearances, competition, success, etc)

    it makes a type who feels "over" society
    Yes, but I want to add that, at least for me, social integration feels superficial as the main problem. Like most people just exist as a sea of projections, projections that are supposed to be personal, yet paradoxically are most often used to influence and control them. Things like Republican vs Democrat or Christian or Atheist or any affiliating term are strings that can be used to make them into minions where groups take on a weird and disgusting form of their own. Or it could be an insult or judgement of your character or something that's supposed to appeal to something you care about. It could be something seemingly innocuous like a television ad that attempts to appeal to your feelings, but behind the scenes the marketing team knew exactly the kind of person they were appealing to. It's why almost every car ad, for example, don't talk about specs or technical facts, but just appeal to some emotion or aesthetic, because that was what got people to buy their cars, even though that's not really what the car is. Every ad, every way that someone chooses to judge or interact with you, there's an inherent script they are following, whether they are aware or not. It's kind of like this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmsncLTh3C4 Mr. Lebowski is very normal. And these kinds of people are landmines. We are all landmines.

    I think I feel like Diogenes with his daytime lamp, just wanting to find a real human being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @HolyKnowing, can you say more about this? I don't quite understand what you are saying.
    LII is the type of logic, while IEI/EII are both archetypes of the type of reverse logic. That means IEI/EII is 100% guaranteed without fail to feed information that is 100% guaranteed to be toxic to LII, causing loss to the LII. Oh and because all IEI/EII's can cut anyone out of their lives forever, they're unaffected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This thread was inspired by an LII boss, whom I know, firing his long-time IEI secretary in a moment (as a result?) of his personal crisis. The crisis involved him failing to meet public expectations of his performance. So, I think that his firing of the IEI, who did absolutely nothing wrong, was a sort of mini-suicide.
    Uh-huh. Yup. D:
    [Today 03:36 AM] anotherperson: this forum feels like the edge of the internet

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyKnowing View Post
    LII is the type of logic, while IEI/EII are both archetypes of the type of reverse logic. That means IEI/EII is 100% guaranteed without fail to feed information that is 100% guaranteed to be toxic to LII, causing loss to the LII. Oh and because all IEI/EII's can cut anyone out of their lives forever, they're unaffected.

    Uh-huh. Yup. D:
    Thanks for explaining, @HolyKnowing. Where can I find out more about "reverse logic"?

    Incidentally, my LII sister lived with our female IEI cousin for a few years after college. At first, it seemed to be going great, but eventually, my sister moved back to Ohio, where our parents and her high school friends live, and then, a few years ago, my LII sister suddenly cut all communication with my IEI cousin without any explanation. My IEI cousin feels genuinely hurt and keeps reaching out to my sister to ask her what's wrong, but she gets zero response.

    I love my sister and I want to help her, but she doesn't want my help, and sometimes it seems like she's progressively reducing the number of her human contacts towards having no friends at all.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-15-2024 at 11:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Thanks for explaining, @HolyKnowing. Where can I find out more about "reverse logic"?
    Read H. P. Lovecraft. His opera cover all eight subtypes of reverse logic. If you're really brave, the indie (read: alternative) games Undertale and Deltarune are also available. Try reading the existentialist philosophers (but not Transcendentalists). Also phenomenologists.

    An example of reverse logic is Jean Paul Sartre's "existence precedes essence". St. Thomas Aquinas (LII) said essence precedes existence, Sartell made it go in reverse and BOOM! Instant Nobel laureate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Incidentally, my LII sister lived with our female IEI cousin for a few years after college. At first, it seemed to be going great, but eventually, my sister moved back to Ohio, where our parents and her high school friends live, and then, a few years ago, my LII sister suddenly cut all communication with my IEI cousin without any explanation. My IEI cousin feels genuinely hurt and keeps reaching out to my sister to ask her what's wrong, but she gets zero response.

    I love my sister and I want to help her, but she doesn't want my help, and sometimes it seems like she's progressively reducing the number of her human contacts towards having no friends at all.
    Queen Elsa is The Ice Queen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Thanks for explaining, @HolyKnowing. Where can I find out more about "reverse logic"?

    Incidentally, my LII sister lived with our female IEI cousin for a few years after college. At first, it seemed to be going great, but eventually, my sister moved back to Ohio, where our parents and her high school friends live, and then, a few years ago, my LII sister suddenly cut all communication with my IEI cousin without any explanation. My IEI cousin feels genuinely hurt and keeps reaching out to my sister to ask her what's wrong, but she gets zero response.

    I love my sister and I want to help her, but she doesn't want my help, and sometimes it seems like she's progressively reducing the number of her human contacts towards having no friends at all.
    This conversation is like a bunch of girls crying about how they can't handle being dumped, oof. Take it to PMs, fellas.

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    what hasn't been mentioned yet: many of those mentioned types (LII, ILI, IEI) fall into E5 and E4 on the enneagram, people who are prone to withdraw and self-destruct due to their idiosyncratic and pessimist world view, added to the fact that they are as far away from the gut/body triad as possible and hence don't value physicality as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Thanks for explaining, @HolyKnowing. Where can I find out more about "reverse logic"?

    Incidentally, my LII sister lived with our female IEI cousin for a few years after college. At first, it seemed to be going great, but eventually, my sister moved back to Ohio, where our parents and her high school friends live, and then, a few years ago, my LII sister suddenly cut all communication with my IEI cousin without any explanation. My IEI cousin feels genuinely hurt and keeps reaching out to my sister to ask her what's wrong, but she gets zero response.

    I love my sister and I want to help her, but she doesn't want my help, and sometimes it seems like she's progressively reducing the number of her human contacts towards having no friends at all.
    So here’s the thing: there are many different ways of being, and none are necessarily more correct than any other. Some people would find life intolerable with very few friends, but others prefer it that way. Yes, LIIs do have very rigid internal standards of what constitutes right and wrong, and if you violate those standards, you’re probably not going to be able to get close. We tend to implicitly trust people until they betray us, so once they do, that’s it. We rarely give second chances. I have consciously detached from a lot of relationships. It's the only way I feel safe. Sometimes it's over a single major incident. But most often, it's over a number of smaller incidents over time that build resentment, until all of a sudden things reach a tipping point. It’s kind of like I have an internal mental/emotional scale, and every negative interaction adds weight to that scale. Once it reaches a certain point, I’m done. So sometimes people think that I have cut off contact with someone over nothing, but really it’s a cumulative thing. If anything, I’m more likely to give someone a second chance over a single major incident than over a number of small incidents. I can rationalise a single event, no matter how dramatic, as simply being a misunderstanding. Those I will try to salvage if I can, but only if I can understand where the person was coming from after we talk. The result is that I don’t have as many people in my life, but the ones who are in my life, I know that I can trust and feel safe with.
    My SEE ex thought it was absurd that I had so few friends, but I thought his numerous friends were even more absurd. He had a lot of people who he called “temporary friends.” They were people that he knew he had very little in common with or didn’t trust, but who happened to be convenient to spend time with because of life circumstances. A perfect example would be his friend Matt. Matt was married to the best friend of the SEE’s ex-wife. When we first started dating, he would tell Matt about things that we were going to do. Only it turned out Matt was reporting back to his ex and keeping her updated on everything we were doing. Then she would go out of her way to sabotage our plans whenever she could. When I found out about this, I asked him why he was still friends with Matt, and his response was that he lives next door. To me, that’s insane. I don’t have a tonne of energy for social interaction. My emotional battery gets drained very quickly, so I don’t use it on people I don’t like or trust. When I was younger, I felt an external pressure to have more friends and be more social, and I felt depressed about it, but as I matured, I stopped giving a f*ck. I would probably be unhappy if I had tonnes of social commitments and loads of friends. I have my core group of about four friends who I feel really close to, and only two of them live in the same country, but I’m fine with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    If anything, I’m more likely to give someone a second chance over a single major incident than over a number of small incidents. I can rationalise a single event, no matter how dramatic, as simply being a misunderstanding. Those I will try to salvage if I can, but only if I can understand where the person was coming from after we talk. The result is that I don’t have as many people in my life, but the ones who are in my life, I know that I can trust and feel safe with.


    I am the same way. In fact, I keep most people at arm’s length unless I get this subconscious feeling that they are a trustworthy individual. I have a good bullshit filter built into me and what matters most to me is that I can be free to express myself about my interests.

    I wrote this in my journal so I figured I’d put it here:
    It seems to me that HP types (static, negativist, involutionary) have a built-in filter that automatically sieves out irrelevant stuff in a situation, revealing the core important part to them.
    I will mentally layer different perspectives on top of each other so I am able to cut out the extraneous junk that doesn’t actually matter in the end for revealing what something is as its very center. This static core is the same regardless of the situation I finds myself in, so it’s very stabilizing. This is useful to avoid getting into situations where I would be at a disadvantage. I am very keen at detecting hypocrisy and things that dont “add up” because I’m layering them on top of each other.

    In my own life as an LII, this ability filters out people or situations who would be bad for my energy. I end up being left with the good, trustworthy people whose nature I have little to no uncertainties about. I’m not very worried about being vulnerable with the people closest to me because I’ve established that unchanging core in them and I know they’re trustworthy.
    There isn’t this level of uncertainty or fundamental novelty in new, complex situations because they’re easily simplified, streamlined, and able to be drawn as analogies, all my experiences are compressed internally in a rather holistic way. Positions are already “essentially” known, as if naturally bestowed, and everything sorta just falls into place.

    I feel like I barely have to put in any “positive” effort to form relationships. Most of it is just negation, and something or someone’s rough essence making itself apparent to me from the start. It feels like I dont have to lift a finger; things reveal themselves. The people who don’t get filtered out become the people closest to me because they passed my passive radar for hypocrisy and other shit like automatically screening out people who feel draining for me to just be around or toxic. I just simply don’t allow things or people like that any opportunities to become closer to me because in the long term I see them making me feel uncomfortable which I dont want to deal with down the line, so I just don’t bother from the start.
    None of this is done of my conscious will or anything either (which is exactly why I wanted to understand it) and socionics gave me those tools. The people and things I do filter out do not take up any rent in my mind, which leaves room for free energy towards things I would rather occupy my time with.

    I will sometimes reflect and be pleasantly surprised (but also not really surprised?, a better word would be grateful) by the integrity of the people who wind up in my close circle of friends because I’m not consciously/actively picking these people in particular. They are what’s left over after negating others. So it’s like, oh hey I do have a good sense for whether or not people are toxic just by going about my business, moving away from people or situations that I implicitly sense as deceptive or make me uncomfortable to be around both immediately and what I sense in the long term. The common denominator between people I end up allowing close to me are that they are genuine, natural, free thinking, have no ulterior motives, don’t grate on me, and I have an easy time talking to and feel comfortable being intellectually and emotionally open with to because of that. Luigi wins by doing nothing.

    Going through some chatlogs with my friend to see what I can find here. Here’s some goodies.

    • my IEE best friend told me that I “DEMAND emotional honesty”.
    • me: “i was talking to my mom [ESI] about this cause i know she’d have something to say about it and she says a lot of people have a really really hard time sensing toxicity in people, she can also sense toxicity in people. my mom says i dont enter toxic relationships or allow people to be emotional vampires because i simply wouldnt tolerate it. and im like. yeah“
    • me: “all around me i see people get used by those they consider close and im like how do you do that to yourself? how do you allow that to happen?”
    • me: “people who constantly have emotional problems put a strain on my patience and when seeking advice from me i get tired of them quickly. i will initially respond to them softly and will be more than happy to assess where the problem is coming from and offer them resources for dealing with it, hoping that they will use them to work it out and feel better, but if they don’t use those resources i fetched for them and continue to whine my patience wears very thin. i am much better at handling a sudden, more serious emotional situation from someone that usually has it together, than chronic negative emotionality about everything.”
    • me: “you know its weird. something i noticed a LOT and ive repeatedly thought about and come to the same conclusion multiple times is that i think i naturally might “embody” the most optimal ways of interacting with other people. socionics just gives me insight into the nature of the personal relationships that i already procure in my life, providing an explanatory toolkit for why being around some people makes me feel a certain way. and its not really a self-fulfilling prophecy because i dont use socionics to prescribe who i “should” be friends with. that’s silly. thats a silly thing to do because people do have idiosyncracies that don’t perfectly align with a system if you rigidly adhere to it, so you’re bound to be set up for failure if you try to force that and you will be disappointed. it’s better to let these feelings happen naturally without pretense, because that’s where the insights all start from. i have a subconscious sense for who i will be able to get along with in the long term almost instantly without the need for any kind of system, just based on their actual mannerisms. but that alone is not good enough for me, i need to know why. socionics just provides an explanation so that i know what im dealing with and its not just ineffable energies, but i can put a name to those “energies” to think and talk about it and compare and discover patterns in what ive curated in my inner circle over my life, what i feel drawn towards. and indeed i do find plentiful amounts of recurring patterns.”
    Last edited by maresnest; 06-24-2024 at 07:29 PM.
    “You'll feel safest of all, you can only receive, it'll keep you stable for days in cars.”
    —me as Gary Numan as a therapist

    -Ne
    5w4 514 so/sp

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    XII in general are like this. Def 5w4 or 4w5 with Sx in the stack somewhere. I think Se PoLR on top of that contributes also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I have the idea that getting close to people and making friends requires a personal touch or connection I don't have and can't perceive. It's hard for me to speak about this since it's not something I understand; I can only say the only people I've been able to be friends with are people who have similar problems getting close to people, and Fe bases. Children are different from most adults in that if you act nicely to them they accept you, and if not they don't, and that's about all it takes with them.
    This idea of "making friends" makes no sense to me. Personally I have never put effort into making a friend, not because I've got some personal touch but because that really doesn't seem natural, to me at least. It's more like people simply become friends because they enjoy the same things and end up talking about it with each other, or they hate the same things and end up venting about it. People with similarities simply just gravitate towards each other. People just get stimulated for whatever reason to interact with this other person, and if it's consistent they end up as friends.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 06-26-2024 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I have the idea that getting close to people and making friends requires a personal touch or connection I don't have and can't perceive. It's hard for me to speak about this since it's not something I understand; I can only say the only people I've been able to be friends with are people who have similar problems getting close to people, and Fe bases. Children are different from most adults in that if you act nicely to them they accept you, and if not they don't, and that's about all it takes with them.
    I was/am the same. The challenge is in forcing yourself past your "Fight or Flight" response.

    I've told the story before but it's relevant so I'll tell it again. I learned about Attachment Theory and found it intellectually compelling. It filled in the final pieces of a puzzle I'd been trying to solve since I was 17. "Why is everyone so desperate and miserable?"

    I had to answer that question and I have. The full answer would take days to lay out so that every type would "get it" as "it really is all connected man!" but it can be done.

    The hardest step was the first. My younger brother is an SEE. I can almost guarantee it because I tested it it after this interaction because he didn't reject me.

    Before I started to experiment I just came out and told him about what I had found in the way that came naturally to me. He picked up what I was laying down without even trying. Then I told him I wanted to spend more time with him because that's what bros and true friends want. He said yes and our relationship has improved dramatically.

    Used to think he hated me because he wouldn't ask me to spend time with him. Turns out he wanted me to ask and was happy when I did. Same went for sharing of needs.

    This is universal. Healthy people react positively to you sharing your needs. Your realistic needs I must stress however. If you're not a supermodel don't expect to effortlessly attract a 3-6 man and vice versa. Besides, real relationships take work from both ends. "Love" is a conscious choice and an effort made. Anyone who tells you otherwise serves the Great Enemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I have the idea that getting close to people and making friends requires a personal touch or connection I don't have and can't perceive. It's hard for me to speak about this since it's not something I understand; I can only say the only people I've been able to be friends with are people who have similar problems getting close to people, and Fe bases. Children are different from most adults in that if you act nicely to them they accept you, and if not they don't, and that's about all it takes with them.
    I usually spot fakeness a mile away it's like a deep sensation of uneasiness and feeling like I can't be myself around someone. Maybe it's attachment like End said maybe not. I used to be the same way and I still am especially with connection. It carries a lot of burden to feel another's emotions and problems, and it's too much to share it especially with a stranger or someone you're not comfortable with. Not even my family knows about some of my deep personal shit I'm not even sure I'll tell a therapist. Maybe it's your environment and how you were raised, my parents weren't exactly expressive and understanding growing up but it's something I taught myself. Genuinely I don't care about some things but I act like a do for the sake of money/a place to live/good relations that won't bother me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I was/am the same. The challenge is in forcing yourself past your "Fight or Flight" response.

    I've told the story before but it's relevant so I'll tell it again. I learned about Attachment Theory and found it intellectually compelling. It filled in the final pieces of a puzzle I'd been trying to solve since I was 17. "Why is everyone so desperate and miserable?"

    I had to answer that question and I have. The full answer would take days to lay out so that every type would "get it" as "it really is all connected man!" but it can be done.

    The hardest step was the first. My younger brother is an SEE. I can almost guarantee it because I tested it it after this interaction because he didn't reject me.

    Before I started to experiment I just came out and told him about what I had found in the way that came naturally to me. He picked up what I was laying down without even trying. Then I told him I wanted to spend more time with him because that's what bros and true friends want. He said yes and our relationship has improved dramatically.

    Used to think he hated me because he wouldn't ask me to spend time with him. Turns out he wanted me to ask and was happy when I did. Same went for sharing of needs.

    This is universal. Healthy people react positively to you sharing your needs. Your realistic needs I must stress however. If you're not a supermodel don't expect to effortlessly attract a 3-6 man and vice versa. Besides, real relationships take work from both ends. "Love" is a conscious choice and an effort made. Anyone who tells you otherwise serves the Great Enemy.
    This is probably getting off topic, but a fight-or-flight response when it comes to emotional intimacy is probably related to your Fi PoLR. I don't know if other types get like that. Maybe 1D Fi types also go through something similar.

    I might have "attachment issues," but it's not really a flight response so much as a "do not engage" response. Most people aren't trustworthy. I don't think it's my judgement that's the problem there so much as its effects on me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    This is probably getting off topic, but a fight-or-flight response when it comes to emotional intimacy is probably related to your Fi PoLR. I don't know if other types get like that. Maybe 1D Fi types also go through something similar.

    I might have "attachment issues," but it's not really a flight response so much as a "do not engage" response. Most people aren't trustworthy. I don't think it's my judgement that's the problem there so much as its effects on me.
    Classic Dismissive-Avoidant. I was the same way. "Do not engage" turns to "Fight or Flight" the instant the other person decides to force the issue or, in my case, when *I* tried to force the issue because I knew that if I didn't nobody would and if nobody said anything nothing would ever change.

    The sentiment of "Most people aren't trustworthy" is also textbook. Dismissive-Avoidants subconsciously believe that nobody will ever engage with them in good faith. That everyone else is trying to use and abuse them and that's just how people are and nothing can be done about it. It's all risk management. Trying to keep themselves in an advantageous position. Managing the irrational feelings of other idiots so that when they go for the backstab it'll at least be predictable and manageable.

    I get it dude. I used to be there. Trying to "ethically" manipulate and manage people because that's all I knew. Thank God I believed in God because if I didn't that whole "ethical" part would have been non-existent and I'd have gone into full Sociopath territory. Probably would have become a CIA asset. Glowies are the worst. True servants of the Great Enemy. I'd have become one! Very bad.

    Thankfully the issue can be fixed. Unless you're particularly cursed with a demonic and abusive family (e.g. Moira Greyland) your siblings are a good start. I started with my younger brother after all. After that is places where you share common interests with others. I'm Catholic so the Knights of Columbus were there and they all tend to be great guys. I've also gotten into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and they are also wonderful people. Happy to be there and armbar you and then walk you through how exactly they did it. Of course, I'm a dude so I go for dude things like that. If you're a chick I don't know what those equivalents are but yeah, seek them out. People can and will deal with you in good faith if you're not a full on psychopath. Ya just gotta give them a chance.

    That "giving them a chance" part is hard. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fixing your attachment is easy on paper but hard in practice Again, you have to conquer your fight or flight response on its most subconscious and primal level. That's as easy as going over the trench and charging over No Man's Land at the Battle of the Somme with our current historical knowledge. Hard doesn't begin to describe it. The rewards, however, also lack accurate description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Classic Dismissive-Avoidant. I was the same way. "Do not engage" turns to "Fight or Flight" the instant the other person decides to force the issue or, in my case, when *I* tried to force the issue because I knew that if I didn't nobody would and if nobody said anything nothing would ever change.

    The sentiment of "Most people aren't trustworthy" is also textbook. Dismissive-Avoidants subconsciously believe that nobody will ever engage with them in good faith. That everyone else is trying to use and abuse them and that's just how people are and nothing can be done about it. It's all risk management. Trying to keep themselves in an advantageous position. Managing the irrational feelings of other idiots so that when they go for the backstab it'll at least be predictable and manageable.

    I get it dude. I used to be there. Trying to "ethically" manipulate and manage people because that's all I knew. Thank God I believed in God because if I didn't that whole "ethical" part would have been non-existent and I'd have gone into full Sociopath territory. Probably would have become a CIA asset. Glowies are the worst. True servants of the Great Enemy. I'd have become one! Very bad.

    Thankfully the issue can be fixed. Unless you're particularly cursed with a demonic and abusive family (e.g. Moira Greyland) your siblings are a good start. I started with my younger brother after all. After that is places where you share common interests with others. I'm Catholic so the Knights of Columbus were there and they all tend to be great guys. I've also gotten into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and they are also wonderful people. Happy to be there and armbar you and then walk you through how exactly they did it. Of course, I'm a dude so I go for dude things like that. If you're a chick I don't know what those equivalents are but yeah, seek them out. People can and will deal with you in good faith if you're not a full on psychopath. Ya just gotta give them a chance.

    That "giving them a chance" part is hard. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fixing your attachment is easy on paper but hard in practice Again, you have to conquer your fight or flight response on its most subconscious and primal level. That's as easy as going over the trench and charging over No Man's Land at the Battle of the Somme with our current historical knowledge. Hard doesn't begin to describe it. The rewards, however, also lack accurate description.
    I wish every Dismissive-Avoidant could read this post and would put it into practice.
    The world would be a better place.

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