Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
You political fucks.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
the pro Palestine are disingenuous.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Jesus, Iran, calm yo tits!
The current war effort in Gaza has broad bipartisan support in Israel, and is also backed by 90% of the Israeli Jewish population -
Newly Vulnerable, Israelis Remain Traumatized and Mistrustful - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
"in the survey, 94 percent of Israeli Jews and 82 percent of the total population think the Israeli military has used “adequate or too little force” in Gaza. Some 88 percent of all Jewish Israelis think the number of Palestinians killed or wounded in Gaza is justified by the war."
The war is supported across the board politically... the Israeli war cabinet that was formed in response to Oct 7 consists of leaders from all major parties -
Israeli war cabinet - Wikipedia
The Gaza war effort is not some fringe right wing initiative in Israel. No, it is mainly just the ignorant activist left in Western countries who opposes Israels actions... mainly the ones in the United States. And they usually voice their support on broad ideological grounds, usually the grounds that Israel are colonialists and representatives of Western civilization, not really contending with the details since they generally are extremely ignorant.
Conquest is the modus operandi of Islam. The same is not true for Judaism. The two religions are not even comparable in that respect, really. Islam spread itself to a quarter of the worlds population mostly through conquest. The Palestinians have been the aggressors in virtually every incident since 1947 when they declared war on / attempted to murder their Jewish neighbors, then subsequently lost the war and were driven out of their land. No, it is really not all just a wash and morally equivalent, because there is such a thing as cause and effect, as well as inherent attitude - which is how we can distinguish between an act aggression vs self defense.
This is the pattern that has repeated itself countless times:
Palestinians commit some act of aggression (acting in accordance with their religion) > the Jews retaliate and dominate the Palestinians > the Palestinians blame the Jews and swear vengeance in the name of Allah
In any society there are certain fringe people that hold bigoted views... in fundamentalist Islamic nations those people are the ones in leadership positions.
Again, Israel is not morally the same as the Palestinians due to a novel concept known as cause and effect. And Judaism / Islam are two very different sets of ideas.
And women are not equally as oppressed in Israeli society, even in the fundamentalist Jewish subcultures, as they are in somewhere like Iran. For example... Judaism does not allow a man to hold sex slaves, nor does it have a concept of honor rape. Jews also allow women to drive and don't require they cover their faces at all times...
It should not be such a surprise that Western nations consider Israel as a partner in the region, because the West and Israel share a set of common values while the values of the Islamic fundamentalists are diametrically opposed to the West. Western nations will always partner better with moderate Islamic nations than fundamentalist ones. Broken alliances is just the natural consequence o a generally hostile attitude. Sadly this attitude is prescribed by the toxic religion of Islam, but it does not lead to anywhere good.
In fundamentalist Islamic nations the moderates are suppressed. Though really Islam itself suppresses moderation, it's a very difficult balancing act to be a moderate Muslim.
While superficially you could claim that both Judaism and Islam operate on fear, suppression, and intimidation, Islam is very different than Judaism in this respect - because while Judaism emphasizes fear of God and of the supernatural, Islams core doctrine prescribes that individuals wage war in this life to bring about the Utopian vision.
Ariel Sharon is to blame for Hamas insofar as he withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and allowed the Palestinians to govern themselves. Hamas was elected in 2006. Netanyahu was not elected until 2009. So no...
Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia
The whole debate on whose land is actually not important in practical reality. There are 10 million Israelis living there now, what we must decide is how best to govern those people today. The purpose of government is not to serve itself and raise its flag to the glory of its leaders... it is to serve the civilian population. The Palestinians keep this narrative about the land going, Israel responds to it with whatever arguments they can muster, but Israel probably shouldn't even bother making this argument - they've conquered the land and built it up, history has moved on - those civilians are not going anywhere.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 04-15-2024 at 06:45 AM.
If you're not referring to the current war effort as evidence to justify the bolded statement then what evidence do you have to justify it, other than just a generic prejudice toward conservative Jews...? And why mention this in the context of a conversation about the war in Gaza if you don't presume to speak to that...? But if you are insinuating that the war in Gaza is, for right wingers, motivated by a desire to kill Arabs, this is undermined by the existence of rationale justifying the war - which bipartisan support is evidence of. Because rational acts aren't evidence of irrational prejudice. But if you're just attempting to share your prejudices against conservative Jews while ignoring the conversation topic / derailing the thread you can get lost.
I'm fine with you scurrying off and not arguing.
It's amazing the mental knots that some people tie and act as if they didn't tie it / now it's your job to untie it.
Hamas is responsible for Oct 7. Your statement is akin to victim blaming.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 04-15-2024 at 10:28 AM.
I'm really worried for the Iranian people right now. They are innocent and dislike their government. They've suffered enough. I hope Israel sees that.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Everybody on X has the same question. We're all watching. Why can't the left debate the right? I'm liberal/independent. I wonder why the left always ad hominem! No logic, only radical crazies.
I'm not subscribing to Marxism.
So we look to the right and say "what the hell is going on?"
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Hamas would accept a physical border between itself and Israel. That's what matters in politics, and it's all that matters: what people are willing to do, not what they say or feel — That Hamas would tolerate a cold peace is more significant than wishy-washy, rhetorical nonsense that another country has a "right to exist".
Consider the situation of Taiwan: The United States doesn't officially recognize Taiwan's right to exist at all (as doing so would complicate its relations with China) but is willing, per past and current foreign policy establishments, to defend it unwaveringly and has a strategic alliance with this diplomatic non-entity.
On the question of Israel's safety and security, Hamas' grudging acceptance of a hard border is more assuring than all the bullsh*t philosemitic slogans in the world.
They're not willing to accept a hard border, they stated explicitly that they reject any alternative to the full and compete liberation of Palestine - they do not accept the border. You are just ignoring the obvious. You are not Hamas's spokesperson, their spokesperson says they do not accept the border, we go by what they say, not what you say.
Taiwan is a very bad analogy because a) the dispute is not based in Islamic fundamentalism, but is based on self-interest of the respective nations, and therefor negotiation based in reason and appeals to self interest are possible (as has been explained); b) the united states has not declared war on China or vice versa, and both nations do their best to avoid a war - whereas Hamas has declared war on Israel and is eagerly seeking that; c) China is not governed and dominated by a religion that considers the people of Taiwan to be their sworn enemy - we wouldn't expect a genocide of the Taiwanese people if China took over Taiwan, it would mainly just be an economic catastrophe for the West
When Hamas says Israel has no right to exist, and say they plan on reclaiming all the land, they mean every word of that. They have not shown any sign of being wishy washy in this and not meaning it, your reading of that is just completely irrational. The rhetoric is obviously relevant, it is the basis of their war declaration, ending the war declaration is the entire point of the peace negotiation, and any arrangement would obviously have to be contingent on peace. If you think this is not relevant you are in the twilight zone.
Anyway, you cannot construe an arrangement where the warring party makes zero concessions and is unwilling to even drop the war declaration as a good faith peace offer, it just isn't.
Carry onward
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 04-20-2024 at 07:49 PM.
I was liberal and democratic my whole life. My green party parents raised me that way. The gay community I grew up in raised me that way.
I have a problem with people killing innocent people. I have even more of a problem with people who raise their kids from infancy to kill innocent people.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
A moderate just asked on X "As a leftist I can't argue with the left; they ad hominem. But I can argue with the right.?" She described the right as if it were like speaking to adults.
Attack the argument. Not the person.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Some prophecies for you....
Us independents/moderates are painted red to fit right in...
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Oh, I wonder, wonder, wonder, wonder, who…
*Who?*
…who wrote the Book of Love?
First there was some Bullshit,
Then there was a Flood.
Then a long, long family tree
And lots and lots of Blood!
Oh, I wonder, wonder, wonder, wonder, who…
*Who?*
…who wrote the Book of Love?
Please don't lecture me on what Hamas said or didn't say.
I'll directly quote the former leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, who informs Reuters that Hamas would accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 border with Israel. He says, in no uncertain terms, that while Hamas doesn't accept Israel's "right" to exist, it does grudgingly acknowledge the unassailable reality that Israel does in fact exist. This is Hamas' official (and nuanced) position, not the propagandistic claim that it is singlemindedly focused on "killing all the Jews."(1)
Originally Posted by Khaled Meshaal
Per article 20 of its charter, Hamas supports the establishment of a Palestinian state along the June 4th 1967 border. Accepting a diminished Palestinian state within Gaza and the West Bank is a de facto surrender to a two-state solution, and although it isn't a statement of enthusiastic acceptance, it is a statement of understanding that the former Mandatory Palestine would be shared between two separate entities in an uneasy peace. (2)
Originally Posted by Hamas Charter
Would Hamas prefer that Israel ceased to exist? Obviously --- it's a nativist organization by its own admission.
But does recognition of Israel's right to exist even matter as a basis for peace? I can see the argument for it, but I don't see any reason to believe that it wouldn't be an empty gesture that means nothing, is worth nothing, or that Israel is in any way moved by such symbolic concessions. Keep in mind that the West Bank's Palestinian Authority (and the PLO, before it) recognizes Israel's right to exist with nothing to show for it. It's also certainly worth noting that Israel and the United States have yet to recognize Palestine's legitimacy, by e.g. repeatedly voting against its induction into the United Nations as a full member (3).
Last edited by xerx; 04-22-2024 at 05:24 AM. Reason: split the post
Per articles 16 and 17 of its charter, Hamas distinguishes between Zionism and Judaism, and it denounces antisemitism (and racism in general). You're certainly free to question Hamas' sincerity, but you still have to answer the fact that their stated position is the rejection of antisemitism.
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
Last edited by xerx; 04-22-2024 at 05:55 AM.
If you don't care for Meshaal or Hamas' charter, you can watch this statement by Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmie Carter's national security adviser and an influential international relations strategist. This is not someone with a discernible anti-Israeli bias nor any discernible favoritism towards Hamas or Islamist ideology, nor is he someone with anti-American / anti-establishmentarian politics. His primary (and prescient) objective was to end a petty, parochial conflict that undermines American legitimacy in the Middle East. (link)
While he concedes that Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist isn't conducive to a permanent resolution, he goes on to say that Hamas is willing to enter into coalition with other Palestinian parties that do recognize Israel's right to exist, and he makes it quite clear that Israel is the inflexible party that refuses to enter negotiations.
Meshaal's statement came from as early as 2009, and Brzezinski's was from 2014. Since then, Hamas' charter and its other statements should have only reinforced the perception that Hamas is open to an imperfect coexistence.
Last edited by xerx; 04-22-2024 at 06:47 AM. Reason: wording
Hamas are liars. Do you watch The Green Prince? And what Hamas leaders are saying RIGHT NOW? Obviously not.
Anyway, I was just upset. I had just watched a video of the cutest little Palestinian 4 year old boy. His father made him walk to the IDF and he screamed "don't be afraid, walk to them" then he screamed "shoot him! Shoot him! I know you like killing children!"
The little boy walked up and shook the soldiers hand. He just saw them as soldiers. Which are cool to a small boy.
I almost cried.
They believe in martyring their children. I don't care about the lies you read. They lie so often it's almost comical on X.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Peace!!!!!
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Qatar to American universities since 2012 $3,281,809,223
Seen them on X too. Antisemitism.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
If only the Jews had an open air prison with 5 star hotels, malls, and grocery stores. And they could use that as a reason to murder 1500 innocent people.
You're really deluded.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
When I see antisemitism.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
everybody in capitalism has a dream. Some are realized.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
I've kind of given up on debating this, but this interview just dropped. It's a long form interview with Mosab Hassan Yousef... this person grew up in Palestine, is the son one of the founders of Hamas, and knows about this much better than anyone here. You'll notice he makes clear that the core motive of the entire conflict is fundamentalist Islam.
Pretty intense interview. At one point he describes how in Islam, when a rape occurs, the rape victim is often executed along with the rapist because the victim is considered dishonored. Apparently this is a practice Hamas adheres to -
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 04-26-2024 at 09:16 AM.
I got drunk and told @xerx I was going to kidnap his Marxist princess. He's not even concerned...
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Explain Joan of Arc to me....
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
The Jews had their arms tattooed. if no tattoo, they were sent to the gas chamber.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. Thousands of years.... @FreelancePoliceman One tiny piece of land is too much?
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
@FreelancePoliceman
Hi Marxist. I just want the truth.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
You cannot have a peace agreement where one party maintains their hostile intent and implicit war declaration. It is not unreasonable to refuse to negotiate under such a false pretense. I suppose such a refusal is inflexible - but this is an inflexibility based in reason. This conversation has now been reduced to basically insisting on Hamas's peaceful intent while ignoring all contrary evidence, including Hamas's own words, and citing some stray commentary by a Jimmy Carter staff member... and not even interpreting the comment well... as if we should just throw away reason and defer to some random persons opinion to decide things anyway.
I don't think Xerx will ever admit defeat but the argument has been reduced to obscurity, the debate is not even a bit interesting at this point. If Hamas cannot acknowledge Israels existence or drop the war declaration there is just no basis for claiming they are attempting to make peace, that is the bottom line.
Carry onward
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 05-01-2024 at 05:29 PM.