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Thread: ESI and Enneagram Correlations Dialogue

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    Default ESI and Enneagram Correlations Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    I'll start out by setting a boundary and saying this: I'll try to skip the anecdotal and subjective experience shit, and I'll try to leave out the "I'm like this, but I'm also like this" shit. I don't appreciate being told who/how I am by those who don't know me, and that's about the only possible outcome of me approaching things from that angle. However, I'll probably need to resort to using my own self as a concrete example here or there, as I am painfully S and speaking in purely conceptual terms without having some concrete in the mix is pretty difficult for me. That being said, my boundary is this: I'll engage in this discussion, but please don't treat whatever parts I share about my personal self as though they're up for debate. I confidently know who and how I am, and I don't even take typology seriously. I value authenticity, and if there's a discrepancy, it's not because I'm not how I present myself, it's because the typology failed. If it becomes a debate about my personal details, I'm out--so try to note whatever personal shit I share as being merely what I'm using to help me articulate myself about the conceptual, and then address the conceptual elements. It's really hard not to take shit personally when it becomes a debate about who you are as a person, and that isn't really the point of this conversation, either.
    Great, thank you for that. I'm also gonna be honest, from the top: the bolded sentiments, in particular, make my brain go [[SYSTEM FAILURE]]. lol I'm Se lead/Te demo (maximum empiricism), Fi PolR, and Si ignoring > one's subjective point of view (even my own) inherently means very little to me--if anything, I'm somewhat inclined to disregard and disrespect that consideration completely. From my vantage point, "it is what is," the truth is the truth regardless of how anyone feels about it.

    IMO, reality should not be shaped solely by someone's subjective, limited purview which might, actually and rather simply, be wrong, misguided, confused, delusional and/or missing some crucial piece of data/info/understanding (which, to be charitable, is what I believe is often the case). Moreover, if ESI is actually your best fit type (who possess 1D Te), then you’d have to concede that it’s certainly possible that you are missing/haven’t quite grasped some of the “actionable information.” I wholeheartedly believe that the "the truth will set you free," and therefore it's worthwhile to scour, excavate, reveal, and dissect until the highest "truth" prevails because that's where I believe actual, long-term, self-sustaining transformative growth is possible. That's my raw, guttural reaction to your "disclaimer."

    Having said that, I still do believe that one's subjective experience matters to some extent, has a place, value, and is deserving of some respect, sensitivity, and mindfulness; but I'm so sorry, never will I prioritize that over the objective, empirical reality (data, facts, statistics, logic of actions) for the sake of someone's ego; I believe that the greater, collective "good" (which, for me, is centered on what is concrete and trackable) is more important than any hyper-individualistic, potentially self-serving narrative. Make no mistake: though "messy" and "ambiguous" in quite a few areas, systems like MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram are fundamentally structured by objective metrics/standards/criterion and in order to function at the highest rate of fidelity for all those using it, it's vital to ensure that everyone is as accurately typed as possible--no "type" exists in a vacuum. I guess this was my "disclaimer."

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    So, in short, I'm immune to all of E8's negative qualities.
    I want to revisit this comment. Although this was allegedly said in jest, you must believe this to be true in order to justify the belief that ESI can be an E8, because these two types are, in some fundamental ways, negating (4D Fi lead vs 1D Fi PoLR) identities–in order to be an ESI and an 8, that would mean that you were inherently strong (e.g., emotionally self-aware, empathic, deeply in touch with your vulnerabilities) at some of the 8's most fundamental weaknesses, which on its face, is rather absurd and speaks to a critical misunderstanding of the Enneagram and its primary purpose/function.

    Each Enneatype has repressed or “unconscious” shadow aspects/blind spots that obscure their ability to fully/holistically see themselves “in 4K”; the Enneagram is designed to be a tool that helps us uncover/recognize/accept these hidden patterns so as to consciously integrate them and, subsequently, become more intentional, purposeful, and whole as people. E8s are “blind” to their physical and emotional vulnerabilities, sensitivities, and weaknesses. This runs diametrically opposed to what makes an ESI (4D Fi and Si), an ESI.

    (Speaking of subjectivity, which you started btw, here's some Ti and Si for you) Because I’m an 8 (which, again, perfectly aligns with Fi PoLR), it is not my natural instinct to emotionally self-reflect in order to “put myself in someone else’s shoes,” which is why it’s easy for me to unintentionally bulldoze people and not consider how my demeanor/behavior/actions are impacting them on an individual level. Being Fi PolR grants me the gift and curse of not having to readily consider someone’s personal, subjective feelings, which might otherwise give me “PAUSE” in how I navigated those interpersonal dynamics. This has gotten me into A LOT of trouble throughout my life. Therefore, it’s a bit patronizing and insulting to cheekily imply that you are somehow above and beyond that, as if you are some supernatural, preternaturally evolved 8. No offense, but GTFOHWTS.

    You even remotely bringing your Fi/Si into this actually irritates the dog fuck out of me because I do not want to consider that, at all–it registers as an unfair burden. And I hate that someone else’s personal beliefs/anecdotal evidence (which they are entitled to) bothers me. With the utmost sincerity, I am not trying to diminish your feelings or be harmful to you–but I can’t help but to feel “gas lit” and backed into a corner, which speaks to my ultimate point>> Even after all the personal work I’ve done, everything I’ve learned and applied by way of various typology systems, my automatic INSTINCT is to want to discount and rail against your subjective fee-fees (and mine) on the matter. That’s how powerful our “blind spots” are supposed to be–they are deeply ingrained and “hard wired” to the extent that it takes challenging, “painful” work to even acknowledge it, let alone overcome it.

    Therefore, if one feels generally unburdened and unencumbered by the 8's greatest weaknesses (which would be the case as an ESI), then what that obviously means is they are not an 8. This premise makes the most theoretical, conceptual and practical sense.

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    Part of the problem for (even reasonable) mistypings, as I see it, is that too much emphasis is put on superficial behaviors and not underlying motivations–this metric is the most accurate way to identify a type. For example, an E8, E6, E4, and E1 can all present/tangibly manifest as vicious, intense, scrappy fighters, but for different underlying causes and reasons.

    For the sake of clarity and transparency concerning the underpinnings of my premises/rationales/arguments, I’m going to cite various Enneagram and Socionics sources (Ichazo, Naranjo, Chestnut, Riso-Hudson, Fauvre, Gulenko, Filatova, Stratiyevskaya, Meged and Ovcharov, etc...) that identify the essential, core definitions of ESI, E1, E4, E6, and E8 (that I will occasionally juxtapose with SLE who is the type that best embodies the 8 psychological structure).

    1.) Here a few ESI (in particular, those with accentuated Se because their behaviors come closest to resembling [while not necessarily being]an 8) profiles and definitions I've pulled many of my conclusions from:

     


    This is a person of duty, very active and enduring. Characterized by expansionism within a small circle. Can be aggressive if he's not agreed with. In conflict situations is never the first to seek reconciliation. Gravitates to administrative roles. May become managers of medium-sized groups, keeping discipline and order, and applying sanctions to those who are at fault. Often is quite forthright and blunt. Shows his attitude with an incinerating look. Businesslike and purposeful. Can give a rebuff to those who create illegal structures, as they easily recognize the seeds of such activities. Prefer prestigious style in clothing, sometimes even bright but not ostentatious tones.


     


    The sensory subtype is quite strict, critical, and ironic. Categorical in conclusions and uncompromising in decisions. Internally sensitive and emotional, but tries to appear as strong, cold, self-assured person. Serious, guarded, and private. Conservative in his tastes and habits.
    Diligent in work, though sometimes he lacks in attention and perseverance to complete his assignments. At times seems unapproachable, arrogant, and prickly. His gaze is piercing. His face sometimes assumes a guarded expression. Well-wishing and attentive, but keeps at a distance from others. Quite undemonstrative. Dislikes it when his appearance is inspected; afraid of external evaluations. Takes care of his looks, dresses elegantly, with taste and a bit of strictness. If he is confident in his appearance, may allow himself to wear additional accessories. His gait is often hammering.


     
    The main "program" of ISFj (ESI, "Dreiser") is to reveal all the existing negative ethical qualities and tendencies and to fight for their removal, exclusion, and elimination, to the point of their complete eradication. In light of this, what constitutes acceptable relations for ESI are relations in which he sees the least troubles for himself, his close ones, and his community. Possibly, it is for this reason that all of ISFj's "commandments" and directives are so categorical, and state primarily and precisely what a person should NOT do.

    Representatives of this type realize their natural advantage early on (and do not allow anyone else to dispute it) – their talent to see in any person his or her latent ethical qualities, and potential predispositions to harmful and malicious behaviors. Using this talent as his natural shield, ISFj builds relationships with other persons very carefully, slowly, and observantly. He is very perceptive of how others relate to him and always feels other people's disposition towards himself. The ESI readily notices lies, falsity, and hypocrisy, both in respect to himself and in respect to others. With his characteristic of perfectionism, which reflects his firm ethical stances, the ISFj prefers to maintain relations only with those who completely correspond to his personal criteria. Even if this creates an impression that he places very high demands on people in his environment, the ESI is not capable of lowering them, regardless of who asks him for it.

    The ISFj often makes an impression of a person who is constantly guarded, tactful and communicative, but at the same time reserved. The ESI doesn't readily bridge the interpersonal distance with an unfamiliar person. Indeed, the ESI feels much better among familiar "tried and true" people. Only under pressure of present circumstances does the ESI literally force himself to expand his social circle. He feels irritated, when this innate to him attitude is opposed by an alternative one: "Be friendly with everyone from the start - without exceptions!" Such proposals disorient the ESI for they contradict his main ethical orientation, and are thus dangerous for him, since they call on him to ignore his strong qualities and expose his weak sides.

    Most frequently, the ISFj builds his relations with other people following two commandments: "Don't do unto others that which you wouldn't wish done to yourself" and "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". That is, if a person hasn't done anything bad to you, you don't have the right to treat him poorly. However, if you suspect that he is capable of malice and poor behavior, then it is your right to distrust him, and moreover, your responsibility to warn others.

    If this motivation is not taken into account, then it is easy to form an opinion about the ISFj as a gossiper who "loves to judge and nitpick other people". Although representatives of this type with their innate understanding of what is "good" and what is "bad" don't like to gossip, considering it to be a matter unworthy and dangerous, they consider giving personal warnings to be their sacred right and responsibility, which they are always ready to exercise and defend.

    Sometimes, due to weakness in intuition and logic, the ISFj himself suffers from the narrowness of his own ethical program. For example, if he is told: "I haven't harmed you in any way - why do you distrust me?", he begins to realize that his behavior contradicts his own principles - i.e. he is preemptively mistreating and "punishing" a person prior to any misdeed. After realizing this, the ESI may act very imprudently – he may allow himself to be honest with a person who has not earned his confidence (which may result in troubles for him in the future).

    The ESI is a maximalist – in love and friendship he gives himself completely. He gives everything that he has, and even that which he doesn't have (for example, he may take out a loan to pay for the debts of his friend).

    In his constant initiative "to eradicate all evil on earth", which in states of psychological discomfort often becomes focused on and directed at his nearest and dearest, the ISFj is often too quick to commit "ethical violence". The ESI, like no other type, knows how to "pin to the wall" the subject of his accusation upon the very first offense, not leaving this person even the smallest leeway to justify himself. With this, he often deprives himself of the opportunity to positively develop relations.

    ESI loves to "sort out" relations (which is a consequence of his weakness in intuition). In cases of psychological discomfort or protracted crises, he can purposefully start a quarrel and cause distress in order to obtain additional information – to recheck his own observations, and to confirm his suspicions, that others relate to him exactly in the manner that he has suspected.

    Distrustful by his nature, ESI is not easily "charmed". No matter how much he loves someone, no matter how much he grows attached, ESI never fully closes his eyes to the deficiencies in a person – [for this is a possible source of future troubles]. Even if he willingly allows himself to trust someone, he never excludes the possibility that this person may abuse his trust and sincerity, but he understands that mutual honesty is an indispensable condition for friendship. Furthermore, he fears to offend a person with such distrust. He may also feel like he is sufficiently strong and capable to stand his own ground if any complex ethical situation arises (in case if he is the betrayer and his "secrets" are revealed to others).
    ...
    ESI prefers to associate only with a small circle of close and trusted friends, but this concerns only his personal interactions, sympathies, and preferences. For him "strangers" are those people who do not evoke trust in him, and in whose company he thus feels psychological discomfort, [due to weak intuition of possibilities and narrowness of life experience].


     


    Guardian — Upholder

    Prototype: A person of example strengthened by life’s adversities

    Dominant ESI is expressive and talkative with loved ones or friends. She loves to joke and stir up a conversation. In order to assess attitudes, she must receive specific responses. Feeling sympathy for others, she can be the first to take the initiative in bonding, but she may break relationships when they have outlasted their utility. If she meets a worthy partner, she is capable of providing them with a high standard of living and becoming a faithful life companion, making many sacrifices. She remains faithful to her family, which she often happens to lead.

    Dominating ESI is eager to help people experiencing difficult moments, providing a variety of services for them. She is able to organize others, be they neighbors or colleagues, on joint business by helping them to assist each other. Issues regarding health, safety, and beautification of her environment are paramount for her; cleaning or making home improvements is often a way to convert her accumulated frustration or anger from a particular issue into a much needed release.

    She possesses administrative and household skills that are not too bad. By nature, she is hard and categorical. If needed, she’ll firmly and consistently defend herself and her loved ones. She considers this to be her duty. She wants to clearly know her roles and responsibilities within a group. She is thrifty when using resources and never tolerates waste.

    Always preoccupied with work of any kind, she requires the same dedication from her loved ones. She is competent in matters of everyday life such as cleaning, cooking, etc.

    She strives to ready herself for anything unexpected so as not to be caught by surprise; however, she does not always manage this and can become quite irritated when placed in circumstances of uncertainty and vagueness. It’s very difficult for her to wait passively to address important issues. She hates frequent changes that depart from established plans.

    Dominant ESI finds it difficult to take people’s individual abilities into account, which is why she is faced with unexpected situations that ruin her view of relationships in either men or women, old or young.

    She dislikes it when someone publicly judges her qualities, given that internally she is not always sure of herself. Sometimes she shows aggression to prevent being attacked or manipulated. She does not brag or boast about her advantages and believes that people should behave
    according to their social status. She trusts only the words of those people with a proven track record.

    Periodically this ESI needs an emotional discharge. She can heartily have fun at parties or other recreational events without restrictions and limitations. Difficult situations in life mobilize her to seek quick resolutions. These events cause a lot of distress, and she needs a concrete, pragmatic aim which she can persistently and gradually follow to overcome the challenges life presents.


     


    Guardian — Accoutre

    Prototype: Person with a penchant for handicrafts, design, and
    beautifying landscapes

    Creative ESI has a good instinct for people. Reading facial expressions and mannerisms, she can sense insincerity or changes in behavior when in fact there is something wrong. This sensing of problems is not intuitive, but rather driven by her own experience; therefore, it is hard to fool her.

    She is adept at pleasing and adjusting to a conversation. She seeks to maintain relationships with a lot of people who are valuable to her. She will not tolerate insolence or impudence. At the right moment, she can take advantage of the most vulnerable spot of her foe, humiliating or ridiculing them. She expresses her sympathy not in words, but through actions via the convergence of interpersonal distance.

    Creative ESI helps others to do work when they are running out of time and attempting to meet a deadline. She intercedes if she has hurt someone helpless. She never gets lost in extreme situations. She can compromise in a situation she doesn’t feel strong in, but is firm and uncompromising in matters that are considered fundamental. Committed to understanding the needs of her children and enhancing their abilities, she quite often helps them gain more self-confidence, which they lack internally. She needs praise and compliments, though does not like to show this. She cannot stand narrow-minded nerds and fruitless dreamers, yet she does not condemn unusual people; rather, she tries to understand how they came to be. Initially, she idealizes those sympathetic to her. She tries to be tolerant, and so does not always show her attitude if it is negative. At heart, she condemns bad deeds and remembers them for a long time. In conflict, she exposes the other party’s long list of errors, abuses and misdeeds committed, after which she feels a sense of purification.

    She is a good leader of creative teams where there are many grievances and quarrels. Creative ESI does not like to get involved in these disputes, hoping that the other side will not inflate the conflict. Dividing opposing parties, she never allows the conflict to boil over. She is observant and witty, and although an introvert, she is usually not afraid of stages or public speaking. She likes to joke and poke, causing unexpected reactions and then discussing them.

    Eager in practical matters, she may do a few things at once, not bothering to qualitatively bring each task to an end, but in critical situations, she shows ingenuity and quickness. Thanks to these qualities, she is excellent at grasping new territories and quickly settling into them.

    Whether it is at home or another setting, she seeks beautiful and original decorations and arrangements both inside and outside. She also dresses brightly and originally and is capable of doing needlework and gardening.


    2.) I believe that these are the strongest and likeliest Socionics/Enneagram correlations for ESI:

     
    Focus of Attention: Like the “superego” function of Freud’s model, Ones focus on noticingerror (in the form of deviations from an internally generated ideal), discerning right and wrong, and displaying a reliance on rules and structure.

    Patterns of Thinking and Feeling: Emotionally, Ones often feel resentment and irritation or anger that is restrained. The communication of aggression is in conflict with their belief that expressing anger is bad, so anger and other instinctual impulses are typically held
    back and then leak out as resentment, annoyance, criticism, and self-righteousness. Ones believe that there is a “right way” to do things and that we should all try to be more perfect.

    Behavior Patterns: Ones can be perceived as being rigid and highly structured in their behavior, relying on ritual and repetitive forms of doing. Typically, they follow the rules and are reliable, ethical, and hardworking.

    Passion—Anger: As an emotional passion, anger appears in its repressed form for Ones as resentment that seeks resolution in pursuing perfection and virtue. Ones display hostility toward the imperfect way things are and try to force things to conform to their ideal of how things should be.

    Subtypes:

    Self-Preservation One: “Worry”
    Self-Preservation Ones are the true perfectionists of the three Ones. They express the
    passion of anger through working hard to make themselves and the things they do more
    perfect. In this subtype, anger is the most repressed emotion; the defense mechanism of
    reaction formation transforms the heat of anger into warmth, resulting in a friendly and
    benevolent character.

    Social One: “Non-adaptability”
    Social Ones (unconsciously) consider themselves to be perfect; they express anger
    through focusing on being the perfect model of “the right way” to be. They have a teacher
    mentality that reflects an unconscious need for superiority. In the Social One, anger is
    half-hidden—there’s a transformation of the heat of anger into cold. This is a cooler,
    intellectual personality type in which the main theme is control.
    Sexual One: “Zeal” (countertype)

    Sexual Ones focus on perfecting others; they are more reformers than perfectionists. The
    only One who is explicitly angry, they act out anger through their intense desire to
    improve others and get what they want. They feel entitled in the way a reformer or a
    zealot can feel entitled: they believe they have a right to change society and get what they
    want because they have a higher understanding of the truth and the reasons behind “the
    right way to be.” The countertype of the Ones, they are more impulsive and outwardly
    angry—they go against the “counter-instinctive” tendency of the One to repress anger and
    impulses.


     
    Focus of Attention: Fours focus attention on their own feelings, the feelings of others, and
    interpersonal connection and disconnection. They feel a sense of deficiency about their
    own worth, so they seek idealized experiences of qualities they perceive as outside
    themselves.

    Patterns of Thinking and Feeling: Fours value authentic expressions of a wide range of
    emotion. Their thought patterns center on what is missing in a given situation and on
    longing for whatever they perceive as ideal and somehow unavailable. They appreciate
    meaningful interactions rooted in real feelings and have a keen aesthetic sensibility based
    on the translation of emotional experience into artistic expression, but they tend to
    overidentify with feelings and dwell in melancholy (or anger).

    Behavior Patterns: Fours can be reserved and withdrawn, or energetic and active, or both.
    They are emotionally intuitive, empathic, and intense. While specific behavior patterns
    vary according to subtype, Fours generally aren’t afraid of conflict, will work tirelessly
    when they feel passionately connected to something, and can see what’s missing and
    speak to it.

    Passion—Envy: Envy manifests as a painful sense of lack and a craving toward that which
    is felt lacking. For Fours, Envy grows out of an early sense of loss that leads to a
    perception that something good is outside the Four’s experience—and that this something
    is necessary but missing because of an inner deficiency.

    KEY TRAITS:

    Individuation: moment-by-moment constant individuation of the "self," not being a team player

    Disdain: everything presents as unrelated to the 4, everything is too shallow for the 4

    Frustration: psychologically creating a "problem" that is insurmountable in order to amplify the feeling of "frustration"

    Pointed negativity: disdain, disgust

    Artistic sensibility: artistic process is a way of communicating authentic truth, worship of beauty

    Frustration: the shallow world is never congruent with the 4’s fantasy of their own depth

    Over-personalizing negatively: over-amplifying every negative emotion as if the upsetting underbelly of life is the only truth and everything else is a shallow veneer, not afraid to bring things down

    Shadow/Lost self: Blind to what makes them connected to the world

    Core Fears: Being easily understood or easily liked, being ordinary, too happy, too satisfied

    Wants Depth

    Subtypes:

    Self-Preservation Four: “Tenacity” (countertype)
    The Self-Preservation Four is long-suffering. As the countertype of the Fours, SP Fours
    are stoic in the face of their inner pain and they don’t share it with others as much as the
    other two Fours. This is a person who learns to tolerate pain and to do without as a way
    of earning love. Instead of dwelling in envy, SP Fours act out their envy by working hard
    to get what others have and they lack. More masochistic than melodramatic, these Fours
    demand a lot of themselves, have a strong need to endure, and have a passion for effort.


    Social Four: “Shame”
    The Social Four suffers more, feels more shame, and is more sensitive than the other two
    Fours. Envy fuels a focus on shame and suffering as they employ a strategy of seducing
    others into meeting their needs through an intensification of pain and suffering. They
    experience a sense of comfort in feeling melancholy. Envy also manifests in lamenting too
    much, taking on the victim role, and focusing on a sense of their own inferiority. Social
    Fours don’t compete with others as much as they compare themselves to others and find
    themselves lacking.

    Sexual Four: “Competition”
    Sexual Fours make others suffer as an unconscious way of trying to rid themselves of
    painful feelings of deficiency. In denying their suffering and being more shameless than
    shameful, they express their needs more and can be demanding of others. In seeking to be
    the best, they express envy in its manifestation as competition. They express “an envy that
    wants,” unconsciously turning their pain at inner lack into feelings of anger about not
    getting what they need from others.


     
    Focus of Attention: Sixes focus on thinking about what might go wrong and strategizing and
    preparing for it. A response to an early experience of danger, Sixes have an adaptive
    strategy that centers on detecting threats and coping with fear.

    Patterns of Thinking and Feeling: It’s hard to talk about one kind of Six, because the three
    Six subtypes are so distinct. This can be traced to the three commonly understood ways of
    dealing with fear: fight, flight, or freeze. Analytical and strategic in their thinking, Sixes
    think in terms of how to manage uncertainty to feel safe. They think things through
    thoroughly, even to the point of getting paralyzed by over-analysis. Aside from fear, they
    tend to have less access to other feelings, though they can be the most feeling of the Head
    Types.

    Behavior Patterns: Sixes are watchful and alert in different ways, and share a common
    orientation to authority. They have a strong desire for a good authority, but can be
    suspicious of and rebellious against real-life authorities. Sixes are thoughtful and loyal to
    those whom they trust. They can be hard workers, intent on control and achievement, or
    they can have a hard time getting things done, getting caught up in procrastination,
    indecision, and fear of success. Their constant awareness of what might go wrong makes
    them excellent problem-solvers.

    Passion—Fear: Fear is an unpleasant emotional and physiological response to recognized
    sources of danger; it usually goes hand in hand with anxiety, which can be more or less
    conscious, depending on the subtype. Anxiety includes apprehension, tension, or
    uneasiness related to the anticipation of danger, the source of which is unknown or
    unrecognized and may originate inside one’s own mind.

    KEY TRAITS:

    Defense mechanism: Projection, protect against their own internal sense of fear by projecting outwards and imagining it's coming from other people, ex. if 6 feels insecure, they might imagine that someone else is judging them

    Defense mechanism: Splitting, seeing objects as either good or bad without ambivalence to reduce anxiety

    Hyper-vigilance: being alert to negative data/danger, imagine worst-case scenarios, detectives

    Theoretical Orientation: use reason/rationality to quell doubt and indecision

    Orientation to Authority: both love/hate authorities, fear leads to sweetness, obedience, and/or defiance, suspicious of authorities

    Doubt: question everything, end up in ambivalence or black and white thinking; ambivalence causes anxiety, can invalidate themselves or others through suspicion

    Contrarian Thinking & Reactivity: voice an opposing idea to whatever the current opinion is, they are looking for the right answers and avoiding being dominated, fear of being taken over by someone else's wrong idea

    Anti-elitism: Not wanting to separate oneself too much from others, would rather stay connected to others; might insert collective humanisms into high art forms to make it less inaccessible and elite; search for what makes us universally human; elitism implies being truly separate or superior, this is something 6's innately fight against; fight for equality

    Band of Freaks: glorifying the idea of being "weird" or a "freak" in a collective way, banding together against the "normals;" this is in direct contrast to types 4 and 5 who have no positive identification with being "different"

    Dichotomies: Often identify with the 4-8 dichotomy, seeing themselves as a 4 with 8 in the trifix, but 6 is emotional reactive, and focuses on the good/evil duality of life; thinking style is pendulous, back and forth, jumping up every time something settles

    Phobic vs. Counter-phobic: also friendly vs. hostile, nice vs. angry, sweet vs. aggressive, non-threatening vs. threatening; 6's embody both sides of these, but people will generally sit one one or another side of this spectrum most of the time

    Self-fulfilling Prophecy: 6 feels inner fear, imagines other people are the source of that fear, then acts that way towards others, the other then begins to feel negatively about the 6 even when they might not have before

    Shadow/Lost Self: can't access their own courage, ability to trust, and the reality of a non-threatening situation, can't access a comfort with uncertainty

    Core fears: Being blamed, physically/emotionally abandoned, uncertain, social anxiety, things going wrong, missing something, being alone, submission, being targeted, chaos

    Wants the Truth

    Subtypes:

    Sixes
    Self-Preservation Six: “Warmth”
    Self-Preservation Sixes express the passion of fear through a need for protection, for
    friendship, and for banding together with others. In seeking protective alliances, SP Sixes
    endeavor to be warm, friendly, and trustworthy, which is why they bear the name
    “Warmth.” This most “phobic” of the Sixes has difficulty expressing anger, feels
    uncertain, and engages in a lot of self-doubt. For SP Sixes, fear manifests as insecurity,
    and they focus on relationships as a way of feeling safer in the world.

    Social Six: “Duty”
    Social Sixes express fear through a need to deal with anxiety by relying on abstract
    reason or ideologies as a frame of reference. Obeying authority through knowing what the
    rules are helps them to feel safe in the world. Unlike the SP Six, this Six has more
    certainty and can be “too sure” of things as a way of dealing with the anxiety of
    uncertainty. Social Sixes focus on precision and efficiency. They adhere to whatever the
    guidelines are as form of having a protective authority.

    Sexual Six: “Strength/Beauty” (countertype)
    Sexual Sixes express fear by going against fear—by becoming strong and intimidating.
    Trusting themselves more than others, these Sixes have the inner programming that when
    you are afraid, the best defense is a good offense. They take on a powerful stance, both in
    what they do and how they look, as a way of holding the enemy at a distance. Their
    anxiety is allayed through skill and readiness in the face of an attack.


    3.) I think the most pervasive Enneagram correlated "subtypes" of ESI are 1 and 6, followed by 4 (self-pres/sexual).

    E6, in particular, lines up almost perfectly with the ESI's "super-ego," weaknesses, and aspirations.

     


    With Ne blocked with Ti in the super-ego, ESIs essentially see little point in discussing speculative ideas, however logically consistent, if they have no obvious connection to reality and do not take into consideration how they affect individuals.

    3. Ti Introverted Logic
    The ESI is able to talk about things from a dispassionate academic or theoretical point of view for brief periods of time, but seems overly bookish when doing so and tends to grow tense. When feeling obliged to justify logically a personal decision taken for reasons determined by Fi, the ESI attempts to do so but grows quickly annoyed especially if the inconsistency in the logical argument is pointed out. He then either explains the ethical motivation or avoids the issue altogether.

    ESIs see the value of logical consistency in systems for areas or tasks they see as useful, but do not see the point of lingering on that if the pursuit of such consistency deviates too long or deeply from practical reality or from concerns relating to individuals and their relationships, and they are not really interested in discussions by others who choose to do so.

    4. Ne Extraverted Intuition
    The ESI is highly skeptical about ideas and opportunities that may appear not to lead anywhere specifically, and seeks concrete assurance that actual material benefits will be achieved. The ESI prefers the kind of ideation that seems to lead somewhere (offer solutions) rather than the sort that is most likely to bring upheaval and unwanted changes. So they don't want to hear about all the possible problems in a situation, they'd rather hear only the very likely problems if there are any, and the benefits.

    The ESI dislikes evaluations of people's potential to engage in activities or develop skills in which they haven't had experience yet; above all he is uncomfortable with such discussions by other people regarding himself. This makes the ESI concerned about the impression he makes on other people in those areas. He is inclined to be either over-skeptical of his own potential or going to the other extreme and overestimate his possibilities in specific areas on occasion.

    ESIs are often amused by, and attracted to, demonstrations of the intense use of Ne by others if at least tangentially connected to ideas that might have some practical use (Te); but they are repelled by it if used in such a way as to excessively contextualize Fi ethics to the point of irrelevancy.

    Te Extraverted Logic
    The ESI is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to the ESI towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the ESI: facts and explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions, which they tend to see as mere opinions. For the same reason, the ESI avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable, or simply untruthful, information.

    The ESI tends to be unsure the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him impressions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. The individual admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile.

    ESIs are very keen to accumulate information on matters they find useful or just interesting, but they also need the company of persons with whom they can exchange evaluations as to the accuracy and usefulness of that information.


    I’m going to focus on the Enneatypes that most resemble E8 in their aggression, intensity, and combativeness, which are E1 (sexual), E4 (sexual/self pres), and E6 (sexual).

    Incidentally, Enneatypes 4,6, and 8 comprise the reactive triad (within the larger Harmonic group designation, which describes how each type handles conflict, how they handle situations where their needs are not met, coping mechanisms):

    “Emotionally reactive under stress, hard time containing their feelings, need you to see the problem that they can see, pointing out the “bad” thing

    4: Reacts in self-absorption and amplification of inner states, feelings of hatred fueled by inadequacy, expressing negativity is “authenticity”
    6: Reacts in outspoken combat, standing up for what they believe, drawing attention to anything that feels wrong or dangerous, emotionally moody, anxiety

    8: Reacts in force, untethered anger and denial of vulnerability”

    "HORNEVIAN GROUPS
    How each type moves in relation to other people, stances, how they get what they need/want.

    Compliant/Superego - 126
    Moving with others, focus on what others’ need/want, society, “earn” needs
    1: Justice, social standards, doing what’s right rather than what you want
    2: Focus on the needs of others rather than self
    6: Focus on building a secure environment for all, being “human,” tribes"

    I think it's also important to point out that just as subtypes of E1, E4, and E6 can have certain behavioral similarities with E8, SLE and ESI also have more than a few similarities. Both are strong Se valuing, negativist, static, result (left spinning) types that share Holographic-Panoramic cognition. However, at least as far as many of the profile/functional descriptions go, ESIs better align with types like E1 and E6 because anxiety/worrying seem to impact them at a more pervasive, generalized rate than it does SLEs.

     


    SLE: “grasping, active, maneuvering, while unable to curb his instincts” [reminiscent of E8's core passion for lust and excess]
    ESI: “condemning of evil, arranging, economic, while tense” [tense is defined as “causing or showing nervousness and anxiety, which is reminiscent of E6's core passion for fear]


     


    SLE: SLE is represented by his or her direct force on the world, and their purpose consists of correctly designing a balance of forces and organizing them in the direction necessary for their realization: thus things are made possible to conquer. For SLEs, only lucid, logical calculations will lead to the victory in any situation.

    ESI: For ESIs, the requirements of a normal life are harmony of human relations, observance by her sense of moral and ethical norms, and a safeguarding of and respect toward traditions. It is necessary to employ significant volitional efforts and actions aimed at defending and maintaining ESI’s system of values.


     


    SLE Character: strong and determined person. He loves and knows how to make an impression on others. Reticent or short-tempered, vindictive or good - it always contrasts and is interesting. SLE can have a big impact on people both in word and deed. Having a great, elusive goal increases its vitality: it will happen no matter what. Well-versed in the business abilities of others and know how to use them for the benefit of the situation. As well he sees the weaknesses and shortcomings of others and can give short, but succinct description of the man. Willingly advises and directs the actions of others, but the underling doesn’t control him. In such cases, SLE might even do the opposite. He does not tolerate when something is imposed upon him. The soul is inclined to doubt, it is often in a bad mood, which could affect his relationship with others. Bored if there is no place to use their power. Inclined to commit reckless acts. Willingly take risks. He does not like when people limit the free choice of what whatsoever. Has difficulty if he wants to express his feelings to another person as he is intrinsically proud and incredulous. Stubborn and uncompromising by nature, but in the interest of the case can go to a temporary compromise. Respects influential, enterprising people, but in personal relationships prefers softer and complaisant.

    ESI Character: Practical, hard-working, prudent, and consistent in everything (E1, E6). Loves cleanliness and order, demands it from people around him. Has a good sense of people's vulnerabilities and knows how to defend himself and his close ones from external attacks. Somewhat conservative, stable and reliable in relations and in business. Has respect for traditions and guards them as moral values. Poorly tolerates violations of ethical norms (E1). By his nature he is a critic and a moralist (E1, E4). Impatient in his soul; finds it difficult to wait for resolution of an important to him issue. Dislikes putting things off until later; prefers to do things as they come and not create any uncertainty (E1 sp, E6), as it weights him down. Feels worried with any life changes (E1 sp, E6), or if he cannot complete something in time. Wavers in choosing his goal. Not confident in himself and his capabilities (E1 sp, E4, E6). Painfully endures criticism in his address (E1, E4). Touchy, readily takes offense (E1, E4). Around new people he is alert and distrustful (E6). Doesn't take initiative in making new friendships and acquaintances, but is often the first one to break off relations. Proud - does not recognize love and friendship without reciprocity. For the sake of his loved ones or real business, can go through any difficulties.


     


    SLE (epileptoid-excitable (E8 sx)-pedantic): excitability and pedantism to to some extent contradict each other. Great self-possession and control or not (E8), often either one trait dominates or another. Neatness, in childhood - provokes others, becomes enraged (E8 sx) with shaking or tremors in body. At times has obsessive ideas. As the personality matures, his psyche becomes more balanced. Impulsive in reactions (E8 sx), self-control at work but at home, likes to control everything. In society may seem a little reticent: afraid to say something out of place. May act recklessly (E8 sx).


    ESI (worrying (E6, E1 sp)-pedantic): fear does not completely absorb an adult as it does a child. May shrink, withdraws before pressure. Overcompensation is possible in the form of a self-confident or even cocky behavior (E4 sp and sx, E6 sx, E1 sx and so), like the child. His request: “Be friendly with me.” Increased excitability of the autonomic nervous system. As they get older starts to worry less. Hypochondria on basis of anxiety (E6, E1 sp), concerns about his health. Worrisome (E6, E1 sp) nature interferes with finding their place in life.


    4.) Another potential way to find a strong/the best correlation between Enneatype and Sociotype is to examine how each respective system defines the growth points for each type:

     
    "In life, you may try to avoid vague and confusing situations when you’re not sure what to do (E6). In such situations, it can be difficult for you to show restraint and patience. You don’t like to wait long to resolve issues that are of significance to you. It is very important to you to ensure a beneficial outcome in the shortest time possible.

    Try to take into account the interests of other people so that they in turn will be inclined to help you in the realization of your wishes. Don’t demand that others display qualities that do not come naturally to them (E1 sx and so, E$ sx).

    Don’t focus too much on personal flaws or the lack of certain qualities in others; try to be more tolerant of the shortcomings of those around you (E1 sx and so, E$ sx).

    You also experience difficulty in grasping the imperceptible causes of phenomena. To avoid jumping to wrong conclusions and making bad decisions, try to take into consideration the advice of experienced, wise, and insightful people (E6). Strive to liberate your mind and encourage creativity and imagination in yourself. Read diverse literature about various subjects; this will help you to widen your outlook and develop a more comprehensive and tolerant worldview."


     
    Sexual Fours can travel the path from envy to equanimity by strengthening their ability to
    be with their own suffering without needing to externalize it or project it onto others. If
    you are a Sexual Four, you can grow by seeing all your emotions as equally valuable and
    important, whether you are feeling envious and angry or sad and vulnerable. Your tender
    feelings are as important to consider as your competitive impulses. For you, equanimity
    means recognizing the value of who you are, even if you aren’t the best or superior to
    anyone else. No one has to prove themselves to be the best to be worthy—we are all
    inherently good enough. Allow yourself to see your anger, frustration, and impatience as
    important clues to deeper feelings of pain that you might be experiencing or relegating to
    unconsciousness. By allowing yourself to experience all your feelings and remembering
    they are all important reflections of the emotional truth of who you are, you can develop
    more compassion for yourself and others and allow yourself to be more open to receiving
    love and acceptance from the people around you.

    Self-Preservation Fours can travel the path from envy to equanimity by relaxing into their
    feelings more and sharing them with others, thereby allowing themselves more sources of
    internal and external support. Envy leads Self-Preservation Fours to believe they have to
    go it on their own, but by actively seeking out help from others, they can allow themselves
    to have more room to breathe and relax. By consciously seeking to embody equanimity,
    these Fours can develop a place of peace inside themselves—allowing them to feel
    through and let go of their pain, allowing them to live more from their fragility, and
    healing what needs to be healed. Self-Preservation Fours actively release envy by not
    working so hard to prove themselves and instead allowing for more lightness, fun, and
    pleasure. Rising above the need to suffer silently and tough everything out means going
    easier on yourself and allowing yourself to embrace all of who you are, not just your
    ability to endure.


     


    Sexual Sixes can travel the path from fear to courage by learning how to be more
    vulnerable. If you are a Sexual Six, you may at times feel courageous, but don’t mistake
    aggression and “strength” born of fear for real courage. As Naranjo says, the courage of
    the Sexual Six is the courage of having a weapon. Put down your weapons and learn to
    tap into your vulnerable emotions as a source of real strength, real power, and real
    courage. Notice how being strong masks your fear and other vulnerable feelings, and
    work to get in touch with those instead of always taking refuge in your ability to squash
    fear and look strong on the outside. Work toward having the courage to be able to let your
    guard down with more people more often. Allow yourself to feel pleasure without
    ambivalence and tenderness without reserve. Notice how the fear of losing your freedom
    and independence may lead you to push people away, and work on learning to trust
    people more with your more vulnerable feelings. Allow yourself to be guided more by
    instinct, intuition, and softer emotions so you can expand the ways in which you relate to
    yourself and open yourself up to others. Recognize that you can be liberated from the fear
    that keeps you locked inside the hard shell of your “acorn” self by seeing and accepting
    that you don’t always have to be so strong and so vigilant.

    Self-Preservation Sixes can travel the path from fear to courage by saying things directly
    instead of being vague; making decisions instead of staying lost in questioning; and having
    the fortitude to fulfill their own needs rather than always looking to others for support and
    protection. If you are a Self-Preservation Six, you can work toward embodying courage
    by giving voice to your aggression in conscious, constructive ways. Take the risk to learn
    that you can draw on your own aggression and confidence more actively in support of
    yourself. Challenge yourself to break out of the compulsion to always need to be good and
    docile, and practice allowing yourself to be angry. Have the courage to say more clearly
    what you really think, especially when you fear others might disapprove. State your
    opinions and preferences, not from a place of reactivity under duress, but from a calm
    place of confidence that’s more connected to your power and strength. Risk being “bad,”
    getting mad, and expressing more of who you are without apology or doubt. Have the
    courage to own your power and authority in the world without needing to project it onto
    others. Rather than expecting support from others, own your many positive qualities such
    that you can be more confident in yourself. Work to have a more conscious sense of your
    strength and strength of purpose, knowing you have the courage to support yourself in the
    world in whatever ways you might need to.


     
    Sexual Eights can travel the path from lust to innocence by reminding themselves that they
    are lovable and “good enough” as they are, and that they don’t need to be provocative,
    superior, or extraordinary in order to be worthy of other people’s devotion. It may help
    these Eights to explore the reasons behind their need to rebel and to possess everyone’s
    attention. The Sexual Eight’s pattern of being powerful and charismatic often serves to
    cover over a hurt child who didn’t get the love and attention he or she deserved. If you
    are a Sexual Eight, and you can allow yourself to own and reintegrate the lonely, needy
    child inside you, you can take the charge out of your defensive need to have control over
    what happens and to be the center of everything. You have so much to offer in terms of
    your strength and your passion and your emotional energy, but you can be even more
    potent and present in the things you do and the relationships you build when you can
    allow yourself to have an ongoing sense of the innocence and purity of your deeper
    feelings, needs, and intentions. This is the true heart and the powerful potential of
    innocence. When you can bring that spirit into the things you do and share more of your
    energetic space with others in conscious ways, you can be truly powerful.

    Self-Preservation Eights can travel the path from lust to innocence by learning to allow for
    a wider range of feelings; expressing more of their thoughts and emotions with others; and
    developing more of a sense of trust related to the fulfillment of their needs. Self-Preservation Eights often feel a sense of urgency around their need for the resources required to live a good life. They usually feel like they have to “go it on their own” and
    work hard to get the things they want and need. In line with this drive, they naturally
    develop the skills and abilities they need to be strong, self-reliant, and self-supporting.
    But this stance can intensify rather than alleviate their sense of insecurity around getting
    their needs met. And this (usually unconscious) insecurity may be denied and
    overcompensated for when they work excessively hard in the belief that they have to be
    autonomous. If you are a Self-Preservation Eight, you can grow toward an experience of
    innocence by slowing down, learning to rely on others more, and having more faith in
    your ability to get what you need without having to expend so much effort and energy.
    Expand your ability to communicate what you need and want to others, whether it is about
    money and resources or love, care, and companionship.

    Sexual Eights can travel the path from lust to innocence by reminding themselves that they
    are lovable and “good enough” as they are, and that they don’t need to be provocative,
    superior, or extraordinary in order to be worthy of other people’s devotion. It may help
    these Eights to explore the reasons behind their need to rebel and to possess everyone’s
    attention. The Sexual Eight’s pattern of being powerful and charismatic often serves to
    cover over a hurt child who didn’t get the love and attention he or she deserved. If you
    are a Sexual Eight, and you can allow yourself to own and reintegrate the lonely, needy
    child inside you, you can take the charge out of your defensive need to have control over
    what happens and to be the center of everything. You have so much to offer in terms of
    your strength and your passion and your emotional energy, but you can be even more
    potent and present in the things you do and the relationships you build when you can
    allow yourself to have an ongoing sense of the innocence and purity of your deeper
    feelings, needs, and intentions. This is the true heart and the powerful potential of
    innocence. When you can bring that spirit into the things you do and share more of your
    energetic space with others in conscious ways, you can be truly powerful.


     
    Self-Preservation Ones can travel the path from anger to serenity by slowing down and
    noticing where anxiety and worry come from, and when, how, and why these feelings
    arise. If you are a Self-Preservation One, unearth any and all beliefs you have in your
    “badness” or imperfection and challenge them: they aren’t true! You are perfectly
    imperfect and you will handle the work part of life more easily and naturally if you can
    allow yourself to rest easier in the knowledge of your own extreme competence and good
    intentions. Most of all, make room for letting go of the need to control everything. Realize
    that the fear and worry over survival relates to an earlier part of your life that is over
    now. Own your essential goodness and watch how you criticize yourself in ways you
    don’t need to, for things that don’t matter, in ways that actually increase your burden.
    Notice that you are no longer in that same situation in which your survival seems
    threatened and punishment seems certain, but you may be acting like you are. Strive to
    relax more, make more room for pleasure, don’t fix things that don’t need fixing, and treat
    yourself with the same kindness and respect you show to others.

    Social Ones can travel the path from the Vice of anger to the Virtue of serenity by
    reminding themselves that there is no ultimately right or perfect way in the world of the
    conditioned personality. Social Ones can relax into serenity through learning that true
    power comes not from doing it right or being superior in your knowledge, but from the
    impulse beneath the fact that you want so much to find the best way and share it with
    others. Your sincere desire to find the best ways to do things and show others these paths
    to goodness and improvement is clear proof that you are lovable as you are, and that you
    don’t need to prove your worth through what you can teach us. Remembering that there
    are many right or good ways to the truth of things helps you embody the humility and
    relaxation in the things you do that is the heart of serenity for you.

    Sexual Ones can travel the path from anger to serenity through being clearer about the
    deeper motives behind the desire to perfect others. You are worthy not because you help
    us learn how to reform and improve ourselves, but because you deeply value the higher
    goal of creating a better world. Explore your impulses and feelings to the point where you
    gain a thorough understanding of the sources of your zeal. Put your idealism and energy
    behind the task of knowing yourself first, before you try to offer the gift of your love of the
    right way to others. Your self-knowledge and humility will only deepen and purify what
    you want to share with those around you. Your high ideals and the energy you put behind
    their realization can truly change the world for the better, but only after you make the
    unconscious fuel behind your passion more conscious.


    Let's take a closer look at what Chestnut suggests for E8's growth:

    "Catch yourself in the act of avoiding vulnerability and dependence. Eights habitually and
    automatically deny their vulnerability and dependence
    on others. Often, it can seem to
    Eights that these important aspects of themselves just don’t exist. But as Eights become
    aware of themselves and develop a greater consciousness of their personality patterns,
    they have the opportunity to show real inner toughness by integrating their vulnerability
    rather than avoiding it through displays of strength. Eights that see how they deny their
    vulnerability and dependence, and work to incorporate a deeper experience of their more
    tender feelings bring their whole selves to interactions and relationships
    . They become
    truly powerful and can grow to champion that truth in a more profound and spiritually
    mature way.

    Regularly inquire into your emotional depths and allow yourself to experience more of your
    feelings
    . I’ve heard Eights say that they wake up angry. They can tend to dwell on the
    angry side of the emotional spectrum: impatience, irritation, frustration, and rage. Eights
    also have greater access to more upbeat feelings, like excitement, than some other types,
    as they don’t indulge in as much negative or limiting self-talk. But in focusing on the
    feelings they do tend to feel, they unconsciously avoid—and so never or rarely feel—
    more vulnerable feelings like pain, sadness, disappointment, confusion, fear, and loss.

    The Eight becomes more armed than other personalities because his coping strategy
    revolves around disowning vulnerability to become big and powerful."

    I'm going to say it one more time for the cheap seats in the back: THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL ANYONE SHOUJLD EVER HAVE TO ADVISE AN ESI IN THIS WAY, OR ANYONE WITH 4D DOMINANT FI, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE ANTITHETICAL TO EVERYTHING THAT DEFINES AN FI-DOM.
    Last edited by Alonzo; 03-28-2023 at 11:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    With that boundary in place and out of the way...




    One part of it is that ESIs are described as being very eye-for-an-eye.

    The crux of my point with this dialogue is to illustrate how much of the behavior you attribute to E8 can ALSO (and more fittingly) be attributed to E6, E1, and E4 (Enneagram types that make the most sense [in that their core drives and motivations find better alignment] when paired with ESI).

    For example, here's what Naranjo has to say about E8 and E4 when it comes to vengeance:

    “It is the angry and punitive characteristic of ennea-type Vl Ichazo addresses in his calling the fixation of the lusty "revenge." [The word, however, has the drawback of being associated with the most overtly vindictive of the characters, ennea-type IV, whose hatefulness sometimes manifests in explicit vendettas]. [In this overt sense type VIII is not strikingly vindictive; on the contrary, the character retaliates angrily at the moment and gets quickly over his irritation]. The revenge which is most present in ennea-type VIII is (aside from "getting even" in the immediate response) a long-term one, in which the individual takes justice in his own hands in response to the pain, humiliation, and impotence felt in early childhood. It is as if he wanted to turn the tables on the world and, after having suffered frustration or humiliation for the pleasure of others, has determined that it is now his turn to have pleasure even if it involves the pain of others. Or especially then-for in this, too, may lie revenge.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    I'm not sure why so many people think that just because they are Fi, they are automatically these soft, spineless people or something. Any type can be cold, etc. ESI's can be crossed the wrong ways, thus seeing it as though people "deserve" shit - like the ESI's are delivering justice, vengeance...same as 8.
    1.) I certainly never said that Fi doms are “soft” or “spineless.” I take great care with my words–what I did say is that ESI is “sensitive” as a contrast to E8's core defining “insensitivity” towards themselves, everyone else, and the world. For ESI, it manifests in the way self-identified ESI Socionist Stratiyevskaya describes below:

    “He is very perceptive of how others relate to him and always feels other people's disposition towards himself. The ESI readily notices lies, falsity, and hypocrisy, both in respect to himself and in respect to others.” Essentially, Strat is speaking to ESI’s inherent empathic and relational/interpersonal “sensitivity” to how they regard themselves, others, and how others relate to them.

    Meged and Ovcharov are more direct when they say that ESI is “internally sensitive and emotional, but tries to appear as a strong, cold, self-assured person. At times seems unapproachable, arrogant, and prickly (which means, quick to take offense).”

    2.) Again, my point is that there are other Enneatypes that care about delivering “justice” and “vengeance” besides 8s, and Enneatypes that, holistically, make more sense/better correlate to the ESI’s core essence, motivations and purpose.

     



    In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as
    competition. These Fours don’t feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive
    as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another
    person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about
    themselves.


    Sexual Fours believe it’s good to be the best. Most people want to present a good
    image to others, but Sexual Fours don’t care very much about image management or being
    liked. For them, it’s better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense
    focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.
    People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing” belief related to success: if
    success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related
    to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.
    Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In
    the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as
    overcompensation—a means of being recognized. These Fours like to be part of “chosen”
    group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they
    may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of
    consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or
    disqualification.


    Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype’s unconscious instinctual
    impulses. Sexual Fours’ deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain
    brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for
    meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others’ accomplishments in comparison
    with their own.


    Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer
    and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an
    unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this
    tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.”
    Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to
    suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an
    active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More
    shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel
    against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that
    “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”


    When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of
    rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don’t meet their needs, but their
    demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about
    being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to
    protest and protest leads to rejection.


    The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers
    to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be
    very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending
    against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don’t
    have to feel their pain anymore.


    These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or
    minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of
    their own deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own
    role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.


    Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the
    Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power
    when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to
    their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse behind the French revolution: “I
    envy the rich, so I’ll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive.
    They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.


    Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can
    be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate
    expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and
    inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a
    wishing with anger, or a sense of “I’ve got to get what I need, both to convince myself that
    my needs aren’t shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their
    competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel
    underneath.


    These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem
    unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody’s love, they can be very
    direct about asking for what they need, or they can become “extraordinary”—make
    themselves seem special and attractive and superior—in an effort to attract it. In line with
    their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their
    sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships
    because they don’t deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally,
    like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time.
    However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because
    they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.


    Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like
    Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the
    wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don’t
    need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they
    may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive”
    Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships), but the
    Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.



     



    The Self-Preservation Four is the countertype of the Four subtypes, and so it may be
    difficult to identify this person as a Four. Although this Four experiences envy like the
    other Fours, they communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other two
    Four subtypes do. Instead of talking about their suffering, these Fours are“long-suffering”
    in the sense of learning to endure pain without wincing. These Fours are more stoic and
    strong in the face of their pain.


    Envy is less apparent in the Self-Preservation Four because instead of dwelling in and
    expressing envy, this Four works hard to get what others have that he or she lacks. Instead
    of hanging out in their longing in a way that prevents them from taking action, they strive
    to get “those distant things” that give them the feeling of being able to obtain that which
    was lost. Whatever they get, however, never feels like enough.


    Self-Preservation Fours do not communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame, or envy,
    though they may feel all these things and they have the same depth and capacity for feeling
    as the other Fours. They learn to swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a
    virtue for them, and they hope their self-sacrifices will be recognized and appreciated,
    though they don’t talk about them very much.


    Like the other Fours, Self-Preservation Fours feel a need to suffer in the unconscious
    hope that this will bring them love and acceptance; but unlike the other two, they suffer in
    silence. Their willingness to suffer without complaint is their way of seeking redemption
    and earning love. Thus, this Four makes a virtue of toughing out difficulties without
    talking about them, hoping that others will see this, admire them for it, and help them to
    meet their needs. Instead of displaying the need to suffer, they have a tendency to deny
    their envy and bear too much suffering and frustration as a result.


    As Naranjo explains, the other two Four subtypes are too sensitive to frustration. They
    either suffer too much or they make you suffer too much (as a compensation for their
    suffering). The Self-Preservation subtype is the countertype Four because they go to the
    other extreme, developing a high capacity to internalize and bear frustration. They make a
    virtue of resistance to frustration.


    Self-Preservation Fours demand a lot of themselves. They have a strong need to
    endure, so they develop an ability to do without. They put themselves in situations that are
    tough. They test and challenge themselves. One of my clients with this subtype says that
    she “throws herself into the fire.”


    These Fours have a passion for effort—they engage in intense activity, and may often appear strained and tense. They may experience distress if their activity level slows down, and they can be compulsive about making efforts to achieve what they need to survive, even if their efforts don’t take them anywhere. In some cases, they may not know how to live without the stress and pressure they put on themselves. They don’t allow themselves the experience of living in or from theirfragility.


    Just as the (countertype) Self-Preservation Three wants to be seen as successful but
    displays humility about the work they do because they believe outward displays of vanity
    make them less worthy of respect, Self-Preservation Fours internalize their suffering and
    strive to get what they want in a more autonomous way than the other Four subtypes.
    This Four tends to be a humanitarian with an empathic and nurturing disposition,
    someone who protests for the sake of others and is sensitive to the needy, the
    dispossessed, and victims of injustice. This is their way of projecting their pain outward,
    addressing it through others’ suffering instead talking about their own. They try to take
    care of others’ pain or work to ease the “suffering of the world” so they don’t have to
    fully deal with their own suffering.


    While the other two Four subtypes can be dramatic, the Self-Preservation Four is more
    masochistic than melodramatic. For this subtype, masochism is the ego or personality’s
    strategy for getting love. Self-Preservation Fours devalue themselves in important ways,
    which can make it even tougher for them to do all the work they do to try to get the
    security and the love that they long for. Their attachment to enduring can be seen from the
    outside as masochistic, but it stems from a desire to earn love and acceptance through
    being strong and resilient. The motivation of this subtype stems from a desire for the
    parent to see that the child is not complaining, and instead is being a good boy or girl
    through not asking for very much.


    These Fours may also masochistically enact a need to prove themselves by working
    against themselves: they make efforts to get what they need and want, but unconsciously
    work against themselves at the same time. They can be impulsive, but they will control
    and inhibit their impulses to get recognition. They may want to be happy, but they
    experience an unconscious taboo around happiness. They spend a lot of energy on being
    afraid of what’s happening instead of dealing with problems and making improvements,
    so they habitually postpone actions necessary to achieving what they want and then blame
    themselves for doing so. They wear themselves out seeking and striving in ways and
    places where they know they’ll fail, which ensures the perpetuation of a cycle of effort
    and devaluation. They may be ambitious, but they deny and work against their own
    ambitions.


    Formerly called “Reckless/Dauntless,” but more recently referred to by the name
    “Tenacity,” these Fours move toward activities that require a large capacity for endurance
    as a way to earn love, without regard for the pain or the danger they may entail.
    This Four subtype resembles a One or a Three. Self-Preservation Fours’ focus on
    autonomy, self-sufficiency, and working hard may make them look like a One; however,
    this Four feels a wider range of emotions—more ups and downs—than Ones, even if they
    don’t always express their feelings. Self-Preservation Fours can also look like Threes,
    especially Self-Preservation Threes, in that they work hard to achieve a sense of security
    and may be anxious; however, in contrast to Threes, these Fours will often work at cross purposes, unintentionally thwarting their own efforts, whereas Threes tend to achieve what they are working toward. Fours also feel their emotions more than Threes do.
    Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a Type Seven, which in some ways is the
    opposite of Type Four, because some Self-Preservation Fours express a need to be light.
    With all the enduring and efforting these Fours do, they may at times display the high
    energy characteristic of Sevens, and they may also have a need for fun and playfulness as
    an escape from having to tough things out all the time. This may account for the fact that
    there are some Fours who do not seem as melancholy as others—Fours that appear more
    “sunny” and lighthearted. However, these Fours can be distinguished from Sevens in their
    greater access to their emotions.



     

    The countertype of the Type Six subtypes, the Sexual Six is the most counterphobic Six,
    the one who turns against the passion of fear by assuming a stance of strength and
    intimidation. Instead of actively feeling fearful, these Sixes have an inner belief that when
    you are afraid, the best defense is a good offense. As Naranjo explains, anxiety in this Six
    is allayed by skill and readiness in the face of a possible attack. They often appear bold
    and even fierce. They go against danger assertively, and even aggressively, as a way of
    denying and coping with their (often unconscious) fear.


    Through denying their feelings of fear to one extent or another, Sexual Sixes go against
    danger from a position of strength; therefore, they have a passion for searching for or
    securing a position of strength. And it’s not just a strong character they seek, but the kind
    of strength that makes somebody else afraid—they want to assume a powerful enough
    stance to hold the enemy at a distance. These Sixes display a forcefulness that comes from
    not wanting to be weak, and they don’t allow for weakness in themselves.


    Sexual Sixes’ strength is often physical. They may develop this physical strength
    through sports or exercise that serve to build muscles and make them feel strong in their
    bodies. They tend to have marked control over their bodies as a way of cultivating a
    sense of inner strength to guard against feeling the chaotic emotions associated with the
    release of rage or other impulses.


    These Sixes also seek to be strong in terms of endurance; they seek to feel tough in the
    face of fatigue, repression, humiliation, and pain. (In this aspect, they may resemble the
    Self-Preservation Four.) For the Sexual Six, strength is often directly connected to an
    illusion of independence and a sense of being able to remain “unscathed” by trouble.
    They may also have a feeling of being somehow “bad” inside, and their strength protects
    them from their own inner attacks on themselves.


    Sexual Sixes have a need not just for strength but for intimidation. As Naranjo suggests,
    this expression of intimidation is very much the essence of the character: if they appear
    strong, they won’t be attacked. While Naranjo explains that Ichazo’s title for this subtype,
    “Strength/Beauty,” originally meant “strength” in men and “beauty” in women, it may also
    be true that being beautiful is a source of strength in both male and female Sexual Sixes.
    These characters walk around with the idea that anyone can become dangerous, so they
    do everything they can to not feel cheated, manipulated, taken advantage of, or attacked. If
    you are someone who thinks and feels this way, you need to be prepared to be strong and
    mount a resistance. That’s why Sexual Sixes not only develop strength but also
    intimidation—in the service of resistance, of being prepared to scare someone off, rebel,
    or be contrary.


    Sexual Sixes give off the impression that they could get violent with anybody at any
    time, but that doesn’t mean that they have no fear. It is precisely out of a sense of fear that
    their anticipation of an attack comes—there is a somewhat paranoid imagining of danger,
    a belief that anyone can turn into a threat. However, these Sixes usually do not look
    afraid; their visible character could hardly be called “fearful” from the outside.


    In contrast to the Self-Preservation Six, who backs away from threats, the
    counterphobic Sexual Six tends to move toward risky situations, feeling a sense of safety
    in actually confronting danger rather than hiding from it or avoiding it. They convince
    themselves (and others) that they are not victims of fear; they are convinced that fear is an
    emotion that should be eliminated systematically.


    Despite being aggressive as part of their effort to intimidate through strength, Sexual
    Sixes tend not to acknowledge their aggressive side and may not be aware of it—or at
    least of the intensity of it. Their aggression is expressed mostly in the social arena and not
    as much in their private lives, as they will usually have needed to develop some level of
    trust with those they are close to. They also tend to separate their emotions: aggression is
    disconnected from fear, and sex is disconnected from feelings of love and intimacy.


    The fact that these Sixes regularly move against danger (or perceived danger) can, at
    times, give them the appearance of a rebel, a daredevil, a risk-taker, an adrenaline junkie,
    or a troublemaker. In some cases, Sexual Sixes may be prone to megalomania or having a
    “hero complex.” In their own way, they seek to be “good guys” to avoid being punished.
    They may have the illusion that they are spontaneous, but they tend not to be.
    Sexual Sixes tend to be very contrarian: they always have an argument at hand to refute
    and contradict an opinion. Instead of thinking in terms of “best-case” or “worst-case”
    scenarios, they think in terms of contrarian scenarios—if the trend is for others to focus
    on the worst, they will focus on the best; but if everyone is focusing on the best, they will
    assert the worst.


    Although they may seem certain in their assertiveness, Sexual Sixes may hold doubt in
    their minds for a long time—doubting which road to take and so getting caught between
    choices. They often believe that there is only one truth, and they prefer concrete and
    pragmatic ideologies because they feel safe and allow control of the world. They fear
    making an error, and the consequences of doing so.


    The Sexual Six can look like a Type Eight because both types can appear intimidating,
    strong, and powerful. However, in contrast to the Eight, who tends to be fearless, the
    Sexual Six is motivated by an underlying fear, even when they don’t consciously feel it or
    show it. Also, while Eights like to create order, Sexual Sixes often like to disrupt order
    by stirring up trouble. Sexual Sixes can also look like Threes in that they are action oriented, fast-moving, assertive, and hardworking. They differ from Threes, however, inthat they have more paranoid fantasies and their assertiveness has its basis in fear rather
    than in the need to achieve and accomplish goals in the service of looking good.



     



    While the Self-Preservation One is a perfectionist, and the Social One unconsciously
    takes on the pose of someone who is “perfect” in modeling to the right way to be, Sexual
    Ones focus on perfecting others. This One is more of a reformer than a perfectionist. They
    have a need to improve others, but don’t focus on being perfect themselves.


    This is the only One subtype that is explicitly angry and so is the countertype of the
    three One personalities. The Sexual One is impatient, can be invasive, goes for what he
    or she wants, and has a sense of entitlement. These Ones have an intensity of desire fueled
    by anger that motivates them to want to improve others. This can be expressed as a sense
    of excitement, passion, or idealism about the way things could be if people would reform
    their behavior, or if the reforms they envision were enacted by society. This makes them
    compelling and vehement.


    This character feels entitled in the sense of possessing the mentality of a reformer or a
    zealot—one who knows how to live or do things better and so feels a right to assert their
    will over others. Like the mentality of a conqueror, this approach can be rationalized (and
    made virtuous) through the rhetoric of their adherence to a higher moral code or calling.
    According to Naranjo, Ichazo gave this subtype the name, “Zeal,” meaning “a special
    intensity of desire.” Zeal suggests an intensity or excitement that fuels the desire to
    connect with others. It also means doing things with care, dedication, and fervor.
    This One’s anger infuses his desire with a special intensity or urgency and the person
    has the sense that “I have to have it,” or “I have a right to it,” or “I have to improve it
    (society or another person) to make it the way I know it should be.”


    In a collective sense, this can be seen in the idea of “manifest destiny,” the ideology
    that justified the takeover of the western part of the United States from the Native
    Americans in the 1800s. Despite what our retrospective view of that period might be, this
    philosophy was a justification for the white man taking over land populated by “savages.”
    Another example of this ideology can be seen in the minds of conquerors, as when the
    Spanish conquered South America. The rhetoric displayed there was, “I can take this
    because I’m noble and civilized.”


    In the Sexual One, this intensity of desire can support the impulse to reform or perfect
    specific others or to make the world a better place in the way this One believes it should
    be. Sometimes, this desire to perfect others grows out of a genuine belief in an
    enlightened vision of reform or idealism. However, it may at the same time be fueled by
    this instinctual subtype’s need to make others more perfect. One woman I know with this
    subtype reported that she felt she would be justified in leaving her husband if he did not
    carry out her suggestions for his improvement. And she felt a need to help him become a
    better person so she could have a better partner.


    In Western culture there can be an anti-sexual or anti-instinctual sentiment—the idea
    that it’s not okay to act on one’s desires. For instance, the sinfulness of sex is so
    pervasive that it can be hard sometimes not to feel improper or naughty if we allow
    ourselves to freely express our sexual desires. But the Sexual One has a different, more
    liberated, attitude with regard to sexual desire. There’s a kind of “go for it” mentality that
    can then necessitate the finding of good reasons to support the rightness of whatever the
    Sexual One wants to do. Unlike the Self-Preservation Ones, these Ones don’t question
    themselves as much. Instead they are concerned more with making others into the people
    they think they should be.


    These Ones are avengers; they are not afraid of confrontation. They may be containing
    a murderous rage that they cannot see. Their anger can be like a volcano that erupts. They
    perceive themselves as strong. They have great strength and determination and can be
    very brave. They are also impulsive and do things quickly.


    Sexual Ones have two sides: a more playful side oriented toward pleasure and an
    aggressive, angry side. Pain is the emotion they repress the most and the one they find
    most difficult to show. They may act out their unacknowledged pain by leading a double
    life as a way of breaking the rules. Some Sexual Ones display “trap-door” behavior,
    discharging their anger and pain through “bad” acts. An example of this is Eliot Spitzer.
    As the Attorney General of the State of New York, he crusaded against lawbreakers,
    going after Wall Street criminals and prostitutes in an effort to reform society. However,
    he later resigned as the Governor when he was caught having an ongoing relationship
    with a prostitute himself.


    [In light of this type of behavior, this One can look like a type Eight. Like Eights, they
    can be energetic, assertive, and strong. These Ones believe they have a right to impose
    their vision and get what they need, in the same way an Eight might overpower or
    dominate a situation to impose their own will. But Eights and Ones differ in that Ones are
    “over-social” and Eights are “under-social.”


    Sexual Ones bring intensity and energy to relationships. They can be forceful and
    insistent. They may attempt to reform their partners and friends, conveying the sense of
    being on a mission or drawing on a higher calling or authority in the things they do. They
    excel at pointing out what others might need to do to reform their behavior or meet
    specific standards, but focus less interest and attention in reforming their own behavior,
    seeing what they do as right.]



     



    While Sixes and Eights are alike in some general ways, phobic Sixes can look quite
    different from Eights and counterphobic Sixes can look a lot like Eights. Both Eights and
    counterphobic Sixes can appear strong and intimidating to others, and both styles tend to
    move toward threatening or difficult situations “fearlessly,” to deal with the problem
    head-on. However, Eights truly have little or no fear, while counterphobic Sixes act
    against threats to quell a deeper and ongoing sense of fear that is not always experienced
    consciously in the moment (but represents the “fight” part of “fight or flight”). Eights and
    all Sixes tend to rebel against authority. And Sixes and Eights can both be protective of
    others they care about. Eights tend to protect the weak and vulnerable, and Sixes are
    frequently drawn to supporting underdogs or underdog causes. In addition, Sixes and
    Eights can both be very hardworking and practical, though Eights are more prone to overworking, wanting to move big things forward quickly, and Sixes can be more cautious and careful and can get slowed down by over analysis and endless questioning of what they are doing.


    Eights also differ from Sixes in some clear ways, with Eights’ style contrasting even
    more obviously with the style of phobic Sixes. Eights feels relatively little fear and
    vulnerability, as the Eights’ approach to life is based on a denial of vulnerability and an
    overcompensatory confidence in their power and strength. Phobic Sixes on the other hand,
    feel fearful and thus vulnerable much of the time, and so they anxiously stay vigilant for
    threats and other dangers. Eights do not engage in self-doubt very often, while Sixes
    continually doubt themselves. Sixes tend to overthink and can become paralyzed by
    overanalysis and thus fail to act. Eights tend to act quickly without thinking. Because
    Eights like to move things forward quickly, they get impatient if others slow their forward
    progress, while Sixes tend to procrastinate and slow themselves down based on fears that
    there will be some sort of bad outcome or another. Sixes are slow to trust others and they
    inspect people carefully to look for hidden agendas and ulterior motives, while Eights
    generally trust people who appear competent until their trust is broken. Eights can directly
    confront a conflictual situation, as can counterphobic Sixes, while the phobic Six would
    rather avoid conflict, but can engage in it if necessary or provoked.



     



    Fours and Eights can appear similar. People of both types are willing to engage in
    conflict and can confront people if necessary, though Eights tend to do this more regularly
    than Fours. Fours and Eights can both feel and express big emotions, though Eights tend to
    express anger more frequently than other emotions, and Fours can more readily feel a
    range of emotions, tending especially to experience melancholy more regularly than
    people of other types. Both Eights and Fours are drawn to intensity, and both types also
    feel things passionately, though Fours are much more likely than Eights to feel their
    vulnerable feelings. Both Fours and Eights can be impulsive, and both can feel justified in
    breaking the rules—Eights because they are bigger than the rules, and Fours because they
    prioritize their internal experience and their own needs and wants over the rules. In the
    work setting, both Fours and Eights can work hard and be deeply involved in their work,
    with Fours viewing work as an opportunity for self-expression and collaborative artistry
    and Eights wanting to make a big impact, achieve and maintain power, and mentor and
    protect the people they work with.


    Significant differences also exist between Fours and Eights. Fours typically experience
    a wider range of emotions than Eights, with Eights feeling more anger and impatience than
    Fours and Fours feeling more melancholy and sadness than Eights. Importantly, Eights
    dislike being vulnerable and expressing any vulnerable feelings—and regularly deny the
    existence of such feelings. In contrast, Fours feel vulnerable emotions on a regular basis
    and can even feel some degree of comfort in a true and deep experience of their
    vulnerability. Eights have a difficult time recognizing their own physical limits,
    dependency needs, and softer emotions, while (with the possible exception of some
    Sexual Fours) Fours are much more familiar with their limitations, their sense of
    dependency, and their softer emotions. In addition, Fours usually put much more effort
    than Eights into getting their own physical and emotional needs met. And when in
    relationships, Eights typically express love through protection and power, while Fours
    express love through an expression of feelings and their desire for connection.


    While people of both types may challenge established authorities, Eights are usually
    more regularly rebellious than Fours. Generally, Eights focus their attention on the big
    picture and strategize about how to move things forward, while Fours pay more attention
    to the creative process and on attracting attention and being appreciated for their unique
    contributions. When working with others, both Fours and Eights can have big energy.
    Eights tend to be very assertive and can even be aggressive and dominating, while Fours
    are more oriented to achieving emotional connections with others (though Sexual Fours
    may also be assertive or aggressive). Related to this, Eights tend to misperceive the
    impact they have on others, while Fours are emotionally intuitive and can be highly
    sensitive to how they affect the people around them. In communicating, Eights tend to be
    direct and straightforward, while Fours express themselves more descriptively in terms
    of how they are experiencing something emotionally. Eights do not pay very much
    attention to their internal processes, while Fours can be very introspective.



     



    Fours and Sixes can have very similar outward styles. Both Fours and Sixes are intuitive
    and skilled at reading others—Sixes because they protect themselves from threats by
    looking to see what other people’s intentions are, and Fours because they are emotionally
    intuitive and empathic—and these traits help them form supportive relationships. People
    of both types can be good troubleshooters, Fours because they naturally see what’s
    missing in a specific situation, and Sixes because they automatically think about what
    might go wrong so that they can prepare for it. Both Fours and Sixes can challenge
    authorities and the established way of doing tasks and projects. Fours can be
    nonconformist because they have original perspectives and they are oriented to depth and
    the authentic expression of feelings. And Sixes can rebel because they think in contrarian
    ways and feel unsafe with and suspicious of those who have power over them. Both Fours
    and Sixes tend to have negative feelings about themselves. Fours usually feel that they are
    defective or missing something in some way, and Sixes tend to doubt, question, and blame
    themselves. Both Fours and Sixes can get stuck in life and have a hard time moving
    forward, Fours because they can be overly self-critical and overly attached to specific
    emotions, believing things are hopeless, and Sixes because they can overthink issues and
    events, experience “analysis paralysis,” doubt their abilities, and fear success.


    There are also clear distinctions between Fours and Sixes. Fours are sensitive to how
    they might be perceived by others and want to be seen as unique and original. Sixes, on
    the other hand, do not focus on the image others have of them as much. Fours want to
    stand out and be viewed as special in the eyes of others, and Sixes identify more with the
    underdog and the “everyman/everywoman” archetype. Fours live primarily from and in
    their emotions, while Sixes dwell more in their heads and are predominantly mental and
    analytical. Sixes’ most regular emotional experiences involve fear, doubt, and worry,
    while Fours more often feel emotions related to sadness and melancholy. Sixes search for
    certainty and inevitably don’t find it or adhere to something specific out of a need for
    certainty. Fours mainly focus on what they don’t have that others have—often an
    unattainable love relationship—thinking that they can at last be happy if they can attain it.
    Finally, Fours’ chief aim is to feel loved and appreciated for who they are, while Sixes
    focus more on feeling safe in the world.



     



    Ones and Eights look similar in some respects. Both are high-energy and hardworking
    types, and both like to establish control and order. Both types tend to get angry, but they
    experience and express anger in distinct ways. Believing that showing anger is wrong,
    Ones tend to hold back their anger, but because it is hard for the One to completely shut it
    off, it tends to leak out as resentment, irritation, annoyance, or passive-aggressive
    behavior. Eights, on the other hand, feel and express anger more readily, and don’t
    believe it is wrong to be angry. Ones usually get angry when people break the rules or
    engage in bad behavior, while Eights become angry for a wider range of reasons. Both
    Ones and Eights engage in “black and white,” or “all or nothing,” ways of thinking.
    Both Ones and Eights like to be in control, but may assert control in different ways,
    with Ones relying on rules and structure and standards, and Eights exercising power in
    more direct ways. Ones and Eights are both concerned about justice and fairness and can
    work hard in support of a cause they believe in. And both styles can overwork and
    neglect their own needs.


    There are also some key differences between Ones and Eights. Eights think in terms of the big picture, like high-level work, and dislike having to deal with details. Ones, on the other hand, excel at and may enjoy detail work. When engaged in a task, Ones focus a lot of attention on achieving perfection, taking pains to make something as good as it can possibly be, while Eights can be satisfied with “good enough.” Eights tend to go with
    their impulses, can be excessive, and dislike being inhibited, while Ones tend to overcontrol their impulses and delay pleasurable activities, as they are typically more focused on correct behavior than indulging themselves. Eights are “under-social” in that they don’t mind—or can like—going against convention, while Ones are “over-social” and almost always observe social conventions.


    Internally, Ones are extremely self-critical, while Eights do not criticize themselves as
    much. On the contrary, Eights often move into action quickly, feeling much freer than Ones
    to exercise their power and their will, without overanalyzing things or entertaining
    critical thoughts about their intentions or behaviors. Ones will usually apologize if they
    believe they’ve made a mistake (and they value apologies), while Eights are much less
    likely to feel apologetic for the things they do. Ones typically observe and obey authority
    figures, while Eights don’t like to be told what to do and may rebel against authority if
    they want or need to. When communicating with others, Ones tend to be polite and
    restrained, using words like “should” and “ought” and “must,” while Eights can be direct,
    abrupt, intimidating, and even profane.



     



    Ones and Sixes share several traits in common. Both Ones and Sixes excel at analytical thinking, and both worry about things going wrong. Ones tend to feel anxious about making mistakes, and Sixes tend to experience more general anxiety related to many different things potentially going wrong in life. In response to their worry, Ones try to be perfect and avoid making mistakes and Sixes catastrophize and imagine worst-case scenarios. Both Ones and Sixes are uncomfortable with success. Both styles create problems for themselves in completing tasks and moving toward success, Ones because they believe something is never perfect and so constantly criticize themselves, and Sixes because they continually doubt and question themselves and believe that becoming successful will make them a target.


    Both styles also tend to be activists in support of social causes they care about, Ones because they feel responsible for making the world a better place, and Sixes because they identify with underdog causes and are sensitive to people in authority positions exercising power over others in unjust ways. Ones and Sixes also differ in specific ways. Ones worry about making mistakes and being wrong, according to their own standards, while Sixes worry about danger and external threats of all kinds. Ones are self-critical and tend to judge others, and Sixes doubt themselves and others. Related to self-criticism and self-doubt, Ones try,—and inevitably fail—to be perfect and Sixes either try and fail to find certainty, or find it in a specific source of authority. One particularly stark contrast between Ones and Sixes is that Ones tend to obey authority, whereas Sixes tend to be suspicious of authority and may even rebel against it.


    Ones follow the rules, while most Sixes question them. (One exception to this is the Social Six, who adheres to an outside authority and may strictly follow the rules offered by that authority.) Both styles can procrastinate, but they do it for different reasons: Ones fear making a mistake and so always want more time to make what they do more perfect. Sixes continual doubting and questioning makes it hard for them to move forward. In terms of relating to people, generally, Ones tend to trust people and give them the benefit of the doubt unless they break the rules or engage in some kind of bad behavior, whereas Sixes mistrust others initially until they have observed them enough to satisfy themselves that they are trustworthy. After a person has earned their trust, Sixes are very loyal and supportive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    Another part of it is that E8's are really not these psychopathic monsters they're stereotypically depicted as. More like soft teddy bears wrapped inside of giant grizzly bears.
    What I actually said is that “E8s at their worst” can be “amoral psychopaths.” I never said that this applies to the average 8. Naranjo literally says “In the DSM III the more delinquent extreme of ennea-type VIII is found under the label of anti-social personality.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    There are introverted 8's, but the problem with Enneagram (which Katherine Fauvre touched on well) is that every Enneagram is depicted with an archetype, and that archetype is not necessarily true for every person. Honestly, though, I don't think introversion really conflicts with E8 anyway, though. Why do you think so?
    1.) To my knowledge, when Fauvre was speaking of "introverted" 8s, she wasn't necessarily speaking to the introversion/extroversion dichotomy as systems like MBTI or Socionics might formally define it. Moreover, within Socionics, the whole point of subtype theory is to demonstrate that, among each type, there is a spectrum of behaviors (including extroverts who may be more introverted and vice versa), dependent upon function accentuation. For example, there will be SLEs that are more extroverted (SLE-Se/D/C) and those that are more introverted (SLE-Ti/N/H).

    "SLE-Ti Description by Victor Gulenko
    Prefers to remain in the shadow, not showing his aspirations, but constantly holds his hand on the pulse of all that is happening around him. Outwardly appears balanced and phlegmatic. Before acting, checks all the variations of possible consequences, and only then enters into the game. Distrustful, careful, skeptic, conservative and realistic. Due to his low sociability makes an impression of being introverted. Once he has identified a target, acts slowly, by the method of "slowly compressing ring."

    Juxtapose that definition with Chestnut's description of self-pres 8s:

    "Self-Preservation Eights feel compelled to go after what they need very directly without talking about it much—they know how to get things done without a lot of fuss or explanations. These people are the least expressive of the three Eight subtypes: they don’t talk much and they don’t reveal much. This is a no-nonsense person who doesn’t bother with pretenses. Self-Preservation Eights are preoccupied with getting things—and getting away with things."

    2.) According to Naranjo, "the indolent aspect of the lusty may be under-stood not only as a feeling of not-alive-enough-except-through-over-stimulation but also in a concomitant avoidance of inwardness. We may say that the greed for ever more aliveness, characteristic of the lusty personality, is but an attempt to compensate for a hidden lack of aliveness." Using SLE as the best correlate to E8, their strongest functions are extroverted (Se/Te), which means their primary field of focus and attention (impacting, controlling, organizing the external environment) will be directed outwardly; not inwardly, as would more generally be the case with an introverted type like ESI. Do you not understand that it fundamentally makes no sense whatsoever for an ESI to constantly and pervasively avoid "inwardness" aka a "preoccupation with one's inner self?"

    3.) The whole point of an archetype is that it's supposed to capture the essence, the most fundamental patterns of a type; if one doesn't align with that defining core of that archetype, then they are not that archetype--it really is that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    E8's lust is for intensity and challenges, in a way that basically is like...the E8's body can't keep up with their willpower, so they neglect their physical health. I don't see why this would contradict introversion, either. Why do you think so?
    1.) An ESI’s two strongest functions are Fi(-) and Si (+).

    An 8 “pushing past their body’s limits” makes more sense for Si-ignoring types like SLE and SEE. There’s a principle called “Occam’s razor” that postulates when explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary. It takes too much convoluted thinking and mental gymnastics to justify an ESI, a type with 4D Si (which means they will be extremely aware of/responsive to/in touch with their internalized body sensations) consistently pushing past their body’s natural limitations. It just doesn’t add up.

    2.) Again, 8s aren't the only intense Enneatypes. More Naranjo:

    “Just as the envy-centered character is the most sensitive in the enneagram, enneatype VIII is the most insensitive. We may envision the passion for intensity of enneatype VIII as an attempt to seek through action that the intensity that enneatype IV achieves through emotional sensitivity, which here is not only veiled over by the basic indolence that this enneatype shares with the upper triad of the enneagram but also by a desensitization in the service of counter-dependent self-sufficiency.”
    Last edited by Alonzo; 03-28-2023 at 11:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Great, thank you for that. I'm also gonna be honest, from the top: the bolded sentiments, in particular, make my brain go [[SYSTEM FAILURE]]. lol I'm Se lead/Te demo (maximum empiricism), Fi PolR, and Si ignoring > one's subjective point of view (even my own) inherently means very little to me--if anything, I'm somewhat inclined to disregard and disrespect that consideration completely. From my vantage point, "it is what is," the truth is the truth regardless of how anyone feels about it.

    IMO, reality should not be shaped solely by someone's subjective, limited purview which might, actually and rather simply, be wrong, misguided, confused, delusional and/or missing some crucial piece of data/info/understanding (which, to be charitable, is what I believe is often the case). Moreover, if ESI is actually your best fit type (who possess 1D Te), then you’d have to concede that it’s certainly possible that you are missing/haven’t quite grasped some of the “actionable information.” I wholeheartedly believe that the "the truth will set you free," and therefore it's worthwhile to scour, excavate, reveal, and dissect until the highest "truth" prevails because that's where I believe actual, long-term, self-sustaining transformative growth is possible. That's my raw, guttural reaction to your "disclaimer."

    Having said that, I still do believe that one's subjective experience matters to some extent, has a place, value, and is deserving of some respect, sensitivity, and mindfulness; but I'm so sorry, never will I prioritize that over the objective, empirical reality (data, facts, statistics, logic of actions) for the sake of someone's ego; I believe that the greater, collective "good" (which, for me, is centered on what is concrete and trackable) is more important than any hyper-individualistic, potentially self-serving narrative. Make no mistake: though "messy" and "ambiguous" in quite a few areas, systems like MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram are fundamentally structured by objective metrics/standards/criterion and in order to function at the highest rate of fidelity for all those using it, it's vital to ensure that everyone is as accurately typed as possible--no "type" exists in a vacuum. I guess this was my "disclaimer."



    I want to revisit this comment. Although this was allegedly said in jest, you must believe this to be true in order to justify the belief that ESI can be an E8, because these two types are, in some fundamental ways, negating (4D Fi lead vs 1D Fi PoLR) identities–in order to be an ESI and an 8, that would mean that you were inherently strong (e.g., emotionally self-aware, empathic, deeply in touch with your vulnerabilities) at some of the 8's most fundamental weaknesses, which on its face, is rather absurd and speaks to a critical misunderstanding of the Enneagram and its primary purpose/function.

    Each Enneatype has repressed or “unconscious” shadow aspects/blind spots that obscure their ability to fully/holistically see themselves “in 4K”; the Enneagram is designed to be a tool that helps us uncover/recognize/accept these hidden patterns so as to consciously integrate them and, subsequently, become more intentional, purposeful, and whole as people. E8s are “blind” to their physical and emotional vulnerabilities, sensitivities, and weaknesses. This runs diametrically opposed to what makes an ESI (4D Fi and Si), an ESI.

    (Speaking of subjectivity, which you started btw, here's some Ti and Si for you) Because I’m an 8 (which, again, perfectly aligns with Fi PoLR), it is not my natural instinct to emotionally self-reflect in order to “put myself in someone else’s shoes,” which is why it’s easy for me to unintentionally bulldoze people and not consider how my demeanor/behavior/actions are impacting them on an individual level. Being Fi PolR grants me the gift and curse of not having to readily consider someone’s personal, subjective feelings, which might otherwise give me “PAUSE” in how I navigated those interpersonal dynamics. This has gotten me into A LOT of trouble throughout my life. Therefore, it’s a bit patronizing and insulting to cheekily imply that you are somehow above and beyond that, as if you are some supernatural, preternaturally evolved 8. No offense, but GTFOHWTS.

    You even remotely bringing your Fi/Si into this actually irritates the dog fuck out of me because I do not want to consider that, at all–it registers as an unfair burden. And I hate that someone else’s personal beliefs/anecdotal evidence (which they are entitled to) bothers me. With the utmost sincerity, I am not trying to diminish your feelings or be harmful to you–but I can’t help but to feel “gas lit” and backed into a corner, which speaks to my ultimate point>> Even after all the personal work I’ve done, everything I’ve learned and applied by way of various typology systems, my automatic INSTINCT is to want to discount and rail against your subjective fee-fees (and mine) on the matter. That’s how powerful our “blind spots” are supposed to be–they are deeply ingrained and “hard wired” to the extent that it takes challenging, “painful” work to even acknowledge it, let alone overcome it.

    Therefore, if one feels generally unburdened and unencumbered by the 8's greatest weaknesses (which would be the case as an ESI), then what that obviously means is they are not an 8. This premise makes the most theoretical, conceptual and practical sense.
    Do you have Discord? I would rather VC than type.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    I'm going to say it one more time for the cheap seats in the back: THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL ANYONE SHOUJLD EVER HAVE TO TELL THIS TO AN ESI, OR ANYONE WITH 4D DOMINANT FI, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE ANTITHETICAL TO THE EVERYTHING THAT DEFINES AN ESI.
    Wrong. Just because you interpret things in black and white ways, doesn't mean people exist in those black and white ways.

    Too many thoughts to type. When I have the time, I will record myself talking, if you are unable to voice chat.

    That is, if you are actually willing to listen. Thing is, I'm not sure whether I should spend my time on it, because you seem quite closed-minded on the subject. If you are just going to scream your views at people in allcaps/red as though that makes them more valid, and then dismiss anything else that comes along, just tell me up front, because I have better things I can do with my time if this is just going to be more of that.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-28-2023 at 01:32 AM.


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    I would think ESI is more 5ish than 6ish. 5 vice is stinginess and avarice, which is consistent with Se drive to protect ones rights. 5s are more individualist than 6s, which is more consistent with Fi. Also Fi can assume a 'high ground' of sorts over other people "i think things thru more than you!" consistent with 5s elitism. 6s abstain from elitist practises. 6s tend to be friendlier but more emotionally reactive. 5s will push their emotions almost until oblivion and appear more staid/stoic, matching unvalued Fe. 5s enjoy surprises much less than 6s (fear of being annihilated) and is consistant with PoLR Ne in ESI. I disagree with the nerdy archetype commonly associated with 5s. I would think a 6 (due to more communal mentality [think gifted kids for example]) or 7 (due to desire for stimulation) would be nerdier than 5. of course, an ESI can be nerdy, but nerdiness is associated with Ti more than Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Great, thank you for that. I'm also gonna be honest, from the top: the bolded sentiments, in particular, make my brain go [[SYSTEM FAILURE]]. lol I'm Se lead/Te demo (maximum empiricism), Fi PolR, and Si ignoring > one's subjective point of view (even my own) inherently means very little to me--if anything, I'm somewhat inclined to disregard and disrespect that consideration completely. From my vantage point, "it is what is," the truth is the truth regardless of how anyone feels about it.

    IMO, reality should not be shaped solely by someone's subjective, limited purview which might, actually and rather simply, be wrong, misguided, confused, delusional and/or missing some crucial piece of data/info/understanding (which, to be charitable, is what I believe is often the case). Moreover, if ESI is actually your best fit type (who possess 1D Te), then you’d have to concede that it’s certainly possible that you are missing/haven’t quite grasped some of the “actionable information.” I wholeheartedly believe that the "the truth will set you free," and therefore it's worthwhile to scour, excavate, reveal, and dissect until the highest "truth" prevails because that's where I believe actual, long-term, self-sustaining transformative growth is possible. That's my raw, guttural reaction to your "disclaimer."

    Having said that, I still do believe that one's subjective experience matters to some extent, has a place, value, and is deserving of some respect, sensitivity, and mindfulness; but I'm so sorry, never will I prioritize that over the objective, empirical reality (data, facts, statistics, logic of actions) for the sake of someone's ego; I believe that the greater, collective "good" (which, for me, is centered on what is concrete and trackable) is more important than any hyper-individualistic, potentially self-serving narrative.

    Make no mistake: though "messy" and "ambiguous" in quite a few areas, systems like MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram are fundamentally structured by objective metrics/standards/criterion and in order to function at the highest rate of fidelity for all those using it, it's vital to ensure that everyone is as accurately typed as possible--no "type" exists in a vacuum. I guess this was my "disclaimer."
    It's got nothing to do with types or information metabolism elements. You're not saying anything I wasn't saying--until you start talking about Socionics, at least. The other parts, I fully 100% agree with. People who aren't like that don't tend to last very long with me, as they can't handle the fact that I tell them straight. I also expect others to tell me straight, and I don't appreciate subtlety. Some "potentially self-serving narrative" is unlikely, though, considering I also tell myself straight.

    Anyway, what I was actually saying was basically just that humans are not created based on the theories, the theories are created based on humans. If I, simply by existing as who/how I am, do not match the theories, then it is not "the theories say this, so you can't really be those ways," it is actually, "I am these ways, and the theories say people like this can't exist, so the theories have failed to reflect reality accurately." At the end of the day, you just don't know me enough to say who or how I am, so that is all that our discussion would be able to boil down to. Those are the only two options. If you were someone who knows me well, then yeah, perhaps then you could present a third. If you don't know shit (about me), all you can do is talk shit. Don't talk shit. It's that simple. I've been in the typology community for more than 10 years, I know how these conversations usually tend to devolve from "Ok, kind of a pointless waste of time since it's typology" to "pure degenerate morosis," so I'm just putting it out there beforehand.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-28-2023 at 02:04 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by anotherperson View Post
    I would think ESI is more 5ish than 6ish. 5 vice is stinginess and avarice, which is consistent with Se drive to protect ones rights. 5s are more individualist than 6s, which is more consistent with Fi. Also Fi can assume a 'high ground' of sorts over other people "i think things thru more than you!" consistent with 5s elitism. 6s abstain from elitist practises. 6s tend to be friendlier but more emotionally reactive. 5s will push their emotions almost until oblivion and appear more staid/stoic, matching unvalued Fe. 5s enjoy surprises much less than 6s (fear of being annihilated) and is consistant with PoLR Ne in ESI. I disagree with the nerdy archetype commonly associated with 5s. I would think a 6 (due to more communal mentality [think gifted kids for example]) or 7 (due to desire for stimulation) would be nerdier than 5. of course, an ESI can be nerdy, but nerdiness is associated with Ti more than Fi.
    5s struggle with taking action.

    Read this, I bet you'll change your mind.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxkirpel9cwdnzi/The%20Wisdom%20of%20the%20Enneagram.pdf?dl=0

    Or don't. I don't really care, typology is a boring subject without much root in concrete reality and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.


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    riso and hudson. i do not really trust their word. what they say about each type and the health levels etc makes sense but the foundation of each type is where im at odds. i think that 4, 5, and 9 are especially off the mark of Ichazo's original ego types. Ichazo's 5 vacillates between overthinking and overaction. thanks for the resource though. i might scan it just out of curiosity

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    Quote Originally Posted by anotherperson View Post
    riso and hudson. i do not really trust their word. what they say about each type and the health levels etc makes sense but the foundation of each type is where im at odds. i think that 4, 5, and 9 are especially off the mark of Ichazo's original ego types. Ichazo's 5 vacillates between overthinking and overaction. thanks for the resource though. i might scan it just out of curiosity
    To be honest, to me it doesn't even really matter what resource is used anymore, because none of those damn things are a great fit as my Enneatype anyway. I simply list what is the closest fit out of the rather limiting options I'm given. I tend to think that says just about all that I need to know about Enneagram in general.

    Like...
    #1 defense mechanism? Intellectuallization.
    #1 fear? I don't really have any fears that stand out that way. Like...the Enneagram makes it sound as though there's this ONE, SINGLE core fear motivating our eVeRY aCTioN so much that it molds our personality and makes us who we are. Lol, I kind of had a smirk on my face just while writing that. Sounds pretty funny. I mean, I'm afraid of swimming in water I can't see in, because of the predators that could blindside me in them? It's a very clear power imbalance, you're at a disadvantage in that, lol. (I also was raised in the part of the world that has the worst unprovoked shark attack rate in the world, and Alligators everywhere, etc. though.) That's about it. I'm not really a fearful person, lol.

    I mean, already, I'm like...welp, there goes that out the window.


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    Lmao, I mean, what are you going to do, bring a knife with you and stabbity-stab the shark to death while it's ALREADY MUNCHING ON YOUR FUCKING LEG FOR BREAKFAST? It's just stupid, why does anyone even want to swim in that?



    When I see those on the news, I can't even feel sorry for them. I'm just like, "welp, Jaws caught another dumbass." I mean, come on, at least fish have a fucking excuse when people catch them; we went through all this trouble of getting their favorite dinner for them, and invented an entire method for using it against them. Not us, no, we're just like "wait there, I'll come to you." We're fucking jumping on the predators' plates while yelling excitedly about how fucking fun it is.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-28-2023 at 03:01 AM.


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    I'm afraid for the future of mankind, because of the stupidity I see every day?



    IDK, man, what do these Enneagram people want me to say? Lol



    ....have to add the Dean gifs because people always think I sound like I'm being angry when I'm not.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-28-2023 at 03:05 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maverick View Post
    Lmao, I mean, what are you going to do, bring a knife with you and stabbity-stab the shark to death while it's ALREADY MUNCHING ON YOUR FUCKING LEG FOR BREAKFAST? It's just stupid, why does anyone even want to swim in that?



    When I see those on the news, I can't even feel sorry for them. I'm just like, "welp, Jaws caught another dumbass." I mean, come on, at least fish have a fucking excuse when people catch them; we went through all this trouble of getting their favorite dinner for them, and invented an entire method for using it against them. Not us, no, we're just like "wait there, I'll come to you." We're fucking jumping on the predators' plates while yelling excitedly about how fucking fun it is.
    Then they want to kill the fucking shark for being "too aggressive." That shark wasn't too aggressive, that human was too stupid. The shark was just fucking hungry. Lol if a nice roasted chicken walked in your house and sat itself on your plate while you were hungry, you'd eat it too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    bolded sentiments, in particular, make my brain go [[SYSTEM FAILURE]]
    LSI confirmed


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    I want to revisit this comment. Although this was allegedly said in jest, you must believe this to be true in order to justify the belief that ESI can be an E8, because these two types are, in some fundamental ways, negating (4D Fi lead vs 1D Fi PoLR) identities–in order to be an ESI and an 8, that would mean that you were inherently strong (e.g., emotionally self-aware, empathic, deeply in touch with your vulnerabilities) at some of the 8's most fundamental weaknesses, which on its face, is rather absurd and speaks to a critical misunderstanding of the Enneagram and its primary purpose/function.

    Each Enneatype has repressed or “unconscious” shadow aspects/blind spots that obscure their ability to fully/holistically see themselves “in 4K”; the Enneagram is designed to be a tool that helps us uncover/recognize/accept these hidden patterns so as to consciously integrate them and, subsequently, become more intentional, purposeful, and whole as people. E8s are “blind” to their physical and emotional vulnerabilities, sensitivities, and weaknesses. This runs diametrically opposed to what makes an ESI (4D Fi and Si), an ESI.
    You know...when a trauma specialist told me that when I was a kid, I felt powerless/helpless, and that I developed my protective momma bear instincts in response to this, my knee-jerk reaction was denial, as it was something I didn't identify with. Simply couldn't relate, and couldn't recall such feelings. I thought I'd never in my life been like that. I was viscerally opposed to the idea, I felt anger toward even thinking I was ever in such a state. Knowing what I know about that kind of response, and imagining how a small child probably would've felt in such situations, I was able to deduce that she was probably right. She explained that the ways I used to take others under my wing when I was in school, protecting them from bullies and trying to build them up, it was because I was seeing my childhood self in them: the innocence, the injustice, the helplessness, the power imbalance, the defenselessness. She explained this was why I was so protective in those ways, and why such injustices infuriate me.

    Fi Doms don't know all of their feelings, experiencing feelings isn't the only way to become aware of them, and you don't know everything, either.

    If you're so blinded by your books that you don't believe in any deviations from them whatsoever, you're a lost cause, anyway. A self-aware "8" really isn't an absurd concept, even. There are book based archetypes, and then there are people...everyone deviates in some way. I bet that includes you.

    I said I wasn't going to be anecdotal, but I changed my mind, because that's the extent of what I will say. You claimed to be open to alternatives, but those were clearly empty words.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-29-2023 at 03:39 AM.


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    It's dumb to spend my time on explaining why two typology systems I don't believe in can combine anyway.


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    True strength is not running like a coward from vulnerability. It is having the courage to be vulnerable, yet still endure, come what may.

    True strength is not in becoming hardened, or being a lion that devours; it's in keeping softness of vulnerability alive, despite contending with adversaries.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-29-2023 at 03:45 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    It's dumb to spend my time on explaining why two typology systems I don't believe in can combine anyway.
    lmao I'm going to need you to make up your fucking mind. Stop being so E6. On one hand, you constantly claim to not care because typology systems are too simplistic and flawed to encapsulate the cosmic minded, infinitely complex, rainbow haired unicorn that you are, and, on the other hand, you seem to be having a legit mental breakdown because the objective criteria of these systems that I've so thoroughly laid out contradict your own (obviously) limited understanding and self-perception. You have "Typology is shit" in your TIM and yet you want to fight tooth and nail over an identity you claim to possess but still aren't ACTUALLY invested in? lol You sound like a convoluted, contradictory fucking mess. For the sake of your well being, let's drop it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    lmao I'm going to need you to make up your fucking mind. Stop being so E6. On one hand, you constantly claim to not care because typology systems are too simplistic and flawed to encapsulate the cosmic minded, infinitely complex, rainbow haired unicorn that you are, and, on the other hand, you seem to be having a legit mental breakdown because the objective criteria of these systems that I've so thoroughly laid out contradict your own (obviously) limited understanding and self-perception. You have "Typology is shit" in your TIM and yet you want to fight tooth and nail over an identity you claim to possess but still aren't ACTUALLY invested in? lol You sound like a convoluted, contradictory fucking mess. For the sake of your well being, let's drop it here.
    1) Typology isn't my identity.
    2) I have consistently showed a lack of interest in it.
    3) I haven't even been emotional about it.

    This is what I mean about typology causing people to label, misinterpret, and misunderstand.

    My interest was in opening your narrow, unrealistic, caught up in the typology rabbit hole mind. Yet, since it pertains to something I type as (thus happen to be knowledgeable about, and feel comfortable discussing), your overly defensive ass contorts it into whatever view you can use to resort to ad hominems. In the end, you'll see what you want to see, and that is exactly why I pulled back...since, like I said, my interest was in opening your mind away from the typology rabbit hole. I don't care about how you, some random asshole on the internet, views me.


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    Fuck this toxic snake pit Fluffy Princess Unicorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    typology systems are too simplistic and flawed to encapsulate the cosmic minded, infinitely complex, rainbow haired unicorn that you are
    Not me, by the way, but every human being on the planet. Types were never intended to encapsulate the entirety of human beings in the first place. You just view others as cookie-cutters when they're not.

    And yes, I also personally have rare qualities. Deal with it. I didn't even choose it, nor was I even aware of it until those who took their time in getting to know the real me commented it. I am what I am, and whether you perceive the TRUTH you claim you value despite being closed-minded to trying to learn anything, that only affects YOU, because it means YOU will not deepen your comprehension of others. It isn't my goddamn problem. I haven't lost anything, you have. I didn't initiate this discussion for MY identity, but for YOUR sanity.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-29-2023 at 04:31 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    1) Typology isn't my identity.
    You've probably told this lie so much to yourself that you almost believe it. But you can't fully believe that or else you would have never chirped up in the first place when I casually, albeit correctly and astutely, argued why ESI and E8 don't correlate at the most fundamental, core defining level. But nah, contradicting your self-deluded projections was too psychically triggering for the person who swears "typology is shit." Absurdist comedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    2) I have consistently showed a lack of interest in it.
    And yet you're still here...going back and forth with me on a obscure typology forum at the farthest nether-regions of the internet. Absurdist comedy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    3) I haven't even been emotional about it.
    Lies from the pit of hell. Even Hellen Keller and Stevie Wonder could see what is so painfully obvious to anyone who crosses your path >> that you are a tattered, worn out, broken down, unhinged crockpot barely keeping the lid on it's seething, simmering emotion, EVER drizzling and oozing piping hot, putrefied rice juice from nearly ever crevice of your communication on this forum. You were so triggered that you literally devolved into a psychotic back and forth convo with yourself while Dean Whitfield uncomfortably placated you with polite smiles in the background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    This is what I mean about typology causing people to label, misinterpret, and misunderstand.

    My interest was in opening your narrow, unrealistic, caught up in the typology rabbit hole mind. Yet, since it pertains to something I type as (thus happen to be knowledgeable about, and feel comfortable discussing), your overly defensive ass contorts it into whatever view you can use to resort to ad hominems. In the end, you'll see what you want to see, and that is exactly why I pulled back...since, like I said, my interest was in opening your mind away from the typology rabbit hole. I don't care about how you, some random asshole on the internet, views me.
    1.) Do you do anything besides projectile vomiting your own limitations and shortcomings onto everyone and everything else? I'm sure it never crossed your limited, hyper self-wanking purview that the fault lies, at least in part, with you and your inability to understand + dire psychic need to cling to some "strong, invulnerable' identity you wish you were but actually are not. The same system you conveniently slam directly speaks to the way people erect psychic defenses in order to shield our egos from the unpleasant truths of our subconscious, which often obscure the reality of who we are, holistically. Thanks for constantly reaffirming in your (barely convincing and ridiculous contradictory) anti-typology crusade that true growth is never possible so long as we cling to the myths and lies that forged us at the most vulnerable points in our lives.

    2.) Furthermore, lmao@ the rank hubris and unmitigated gall of some brain broken, "Borderline" bitch on the internet thinking they could convince me of unbelieving something they evidently can't even convince themselves they don't believe as they psychically scream like a batshit banshee about what typological identities they weallly feeeeel they are but still don't really believe in. ABSURDIST COMEDY.

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    Fuck this toxic snake pit Fluffy Princess Unicorn's Avatar
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    Toxic as hell, so I didn't even read and you wasted your time on that long ass post. Also permanently muted. Get some help before you murder somebody or you kill yourself.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-29-2023 at 05:55 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    Toxic as hell, and permanently muted. Get some help before you murder somebody or you kill yourself.
    lmao unfortunately, cowardly, emotionally parasitic, narcissistic bitches like you never kill themselves; because that would prevent them from getting the attention they so desperately crave in order to reaffirm the validity of their often pathetic, unenviable existences. You're the epitome of the self harmer who cuts across the wrists (for drama) but never down (for action). BYE BITCH, hated seeing your mundane, self-indulgent, non-stop emotional purges, anyway!

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    @mods please close this degenerate thread.


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    My work is done here.

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