ESI wanting things from others in an indirect way
ESI: “my kids don’t even have umbrellas since I can’t afford it”
Also ESI “I took my daughter out for her birthday party”
Also ESI “I have to have take out every breakfast “
ESI: “I can’t afford shoes for my daughter “
Also ESI: “I got a puppy! Vet costs are in now”
You’ve done many nice things for ESI and one time you won’t do something for them
ESI: with a tinge of harsh criticism “I recognize who you are now!” As in you just showed your true colors to me never mind I’ve been so nice to you
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I’ve known some ESIs and a few have been like this. I’m familiar with that situation in the last line. It’s like dang, sorry I can’t always be on my knees for you!
Leading Fi can be a double-edged sword.
For my experience, ESI FI has a very strong need to get someone helping them doing something. If you are their friend but doesn’t help them when they try to do something, they will suddenly feel sad and whining about it, even if it’s not your duty. They somehow expected everyone has 4d Te.
But I realize the trick, you don’t need to help them much, you just need to show your face there and pretend that you trying to help and giving random Te advices, and then they would be ok lol.
Yes both ESI friends are like this, I just jokingly point out: "yes, it was me who just recently bought that North Face jacket, not you" (when my friend was complaining about the price of cucumbers when I asked her why she hasn't bought some like she always does) and then they smile and change the subject. This might come across as too direct depending on the image they already have of your character and whether or not you're a direct person in general (joking tone always helps, but shouldn't be sarcastic).
About being needy I feel like this happens when the ESI is already sad about something else happening in the friendship, and they throw in some imaginary problems to test if you will offer to help them with it and this "you showed your true colour" comes from the disappointment from you failing that general test scheme.
ESIs are generally proud human beings and asking for something directly shows weakness which they don't like.
Aww dualityOriginally Posted by Zero
Yes both ESI friends are like this, I just jokingly point out: "yes, it was me who just recently bought that North Face jacket, not you
About being needy I feel like this happens when the ESI is already sad about something else happening in the friendship, and they throw in some imaginary problems to test if you will offer to help them with it and this "you showed your true colour" comes from the disappointment from you failing that general test scheme.
ESIs are generally proud human beings and asking for something directly shows weakness which they don't like.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Or to point at the sign, attachment issues. The ESI is frequently of a phlegmatic nature if I must point at another sign I know of. I'm a melancholic and my dual is if a Sanguine (i.e. the SEE). The LIE is of a Choleric nature and that, funny enough, fits perfectly. Each dual compensates naturally for the weaknesses of the other side of said pair.
Hell, it even gets identified and mirrored in dual relationships. I can do this but I will need an outsider impetus as, well, I actually now have better things to do than lurk here for hours at a time. I've been following my own friggin' advice and that has had appreciable IRL responses.
For instance: I've actually joined a religious order. They require things of me in this world and I must either deliver or get booted out.
No idea how happy I was to see and hear them call me out on my inearnest BS. Don't challenge a philosopher to a debate. Yet don't challenge a philosopher to argue against his/her own point if you want to remain entertaining long term as a finite being...
Jeez Maritsa, you're kind of touchy. Either do what they want if you have time and interest, or ignore their request.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Actually in general IxFx types do best in support roles. If they are doing something alone by themselves it's already a bad sign (not talking about washing dishes, more like major tasks).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
This sounds more like ESE to me kinda.
I've heard from some that ESEs can be more overbearing and controlling than ESIs, so I can see why you'd think that. I wonder what it is about ESEs... Maybe the leading Fe?
I guess ESE would be like: “I’ll have a tea party in x day and everyone has to come in the right time!”
dang, always wanted to join one of these orders haha, but hard to achieve as a boring atheist. although lots of such orders and fraternities have dropped the requirement to believe in a single God for joining.
anyways... You sound like a contemporary Isaac Newton who just discovered alchemy or something. hope that ends up in some gold production
Can you confess that Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead if only in jest? As in just say the words without actually having any "heart" in it? That's pretty much all ya gotta do to get into practically any religious organization. Just recite their creed with a passing level of earnesty. The more you can fake it the better yes but so long as you don't come across as mocking or condescending them you'll pass and get in because hey, convert fervor is a thing and we rather like that little grace and its effects.dang, always wanted to join one of these orders haha, but hard to achieve as a boring atheist. although lots of such orders and fraternities have dropped the requirement to believe in a single God for joining.
anyways... You sound like a contemporary Isaac Newton who just discovered alchemy or something. hope that ends up in some gold production
I mean, to use another example, if I could just say "There is no God but God and Muhammed is his Prophet" without any outward signs of cringe, disdain, or mockery I could probably get into friggin' Mecca despite the fact I am not nor ever will be a true Muslim. I don't wanna do that but if I wanted to put in the effort to do so I'm sure I could accomplish the objective as I know what they're looking for and I can be a hell of an actor when it counts.
You really can "fake it until you make it" in this area. You're going to have to align with their moral code on some level however (e.g. Both devout Catholics and Muslims are extremely conservative). You cannot be a vehement pro-choice advocate and expect to be able to fake being Pro-Life if you're attempting to ingratiate yourself into any truly Catholic organization for instance. We're going to figure you out really quickly and you can believe what you believe, but ya can't be part of our club if you believe that.
In short, just try to join a religious organization. You could also follow the example of John C. Wright. He used to be an atheist like yourself but he was also ruthlessly devoted to logic and reason. In using those he came to opinions shared by the likes of myself and got accused of being a radical fundie Christian despite the fact he was (at the time) an atheist. So he cooked up a brilliant scheme from his end that people like me would have warned him about.
Y'know the saying "be careful what ya wish for" yes? Well, Mr. Wright didn't really compute this until after it happened. He was told to read Aquinas and refute him. Aquinas... wrote long books. Hell, he didn't even get to completely finish his magnum opus (though I suspect it was mostly complete). He cooked up a brilliant yet foolish shortcut. He prayed to God over reading the Summa Theologica. He prayed, nay, demanded that he reveal himself to him. After all (I'm pretty sure he's a Betavaluer) there's only three ways this will end in his head when he did this.
Either he doesn't exist and thus cannot reveal himself to him (i.e. Atheism is correct). Or he does but he cares nothing about the earnest request of one who seeks to know salvation. That means he fails the test of omnibenevolence, which means he's no true God at all. Then there's the third option. He's real, he reveals himself to him, and he must then admit he was wrong about denying his existence.
A literal heart attack and Marian vision later and he's now a most ardent, eloquent and faithful Catholic. Just putting this one out there for people to consider...
What about all the people who have heart attacks and visions of Muhammad or Buddha or the Jewish souls gathered on Mount Sinai? How do you know your religion's visions are the real ones?
Spiritual experiences are wordless. Often counter-intuitive things you wouldn't think leads you to having an experience that's truly ascendant.
Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 02-07-2023 at 05:55 AM.
It is a matter of doctrine that everyone is given enough grace to attain salvation. The key question is whether or not we choose to act in accordance with that grace. If we accept his grace and try to act in accordance with it we will become holy and will attain the Beatific Vision. If we don't we will be damned to hell but either way the truly greater good will be served.
For instance, it is impossible to surprise or disappoint God. He's omniscient ya see and the real meaning of disappointment is the surprise stemming from an instance of failure you weren't expecting. Since you cannot surprise him you also, by definition, cannot disappoint him.
Visions of Allah/Jewish Yaweh/Buddah/etc. can be seen as graces in this sense. Finite as we are and as hardcore influenced by our milieu as we are it is of no surprise that God might want to reveal himself to you "in a form you'd understand" at a given time to "set you up" for a much greater revelation later. I could think of many examples but I don't wanna piss anyone off right now.
(Especially the Muslims and Jews here. Get into a serious and open-minded discussion with an actual devout who isn't a radtrad quasi-gnostic Catholic/Jew and you'd be surprised how far you'll go and how much you'll agree on before you actually run into a theological issue worth throwing a punch at the other's face over Saint Nicholas vs. Arius style. Cultural issues will happen hard, fast, and often but in terms of theology you'll find you tend to agree more often than not.)
This is also similar to an occurrence Exorcists run into. You're at the last stage. You've got the Demon's true angelic name, how he wedged his way into this person, and (because of how their intellects work) you can basically command it to do whatever and it'll do it (including passing a witch test as it screams in terrible agony as it utters the holy name of Christ), etc. Yet it still won't leave the body of the victim if commanded to do so. Why? Because "liberation" in that case is a thing determined by God and he will liberate them at the most befitting time.
Then, and no sooner nor later, will the possessed be liberated from the demon.
Or, to put it more bluntly, I have seen what I have seen and I have come to believe what I believe because of it. If ye be capable of Mr. Wright's earnest prayer than utter it with the full knowledge that ya just might die. Though ye will also be given the necessary grace to be truly repentant if God chooses to grant you said grace. When you face both the particular and final judgement there really is only one thing you must say. "Lord have mercy!"
I mean, I even just listened to a very good homily that explained why we say before Holy Communion "Lord I am not worthy, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed". There's a lot to unpack in that statement and suffice it to say most of us get stuck on that first part...
@End
Thanks for the elaboration and sorry I joked about something you feel deeply about. But I'm not built to survive well in places where I need to fake and filter my opinion that much and times have changed. I sometimes get involved in spiritual things when life gets tough but as a kind of a research interest or a hobby, and then I get back to work (:
It seems to feel instinctively more virtuous for me, to adapt a forward looking attitude towards life, rather than a
largely backward looking one (and I don't mean I'm politically progressive in general, but I don't like dwelling on the past too much)
Managing finances is a skill anyone can learn. Being bad at it isn't personality related. If anything, it might originate from having parents that failed to teach them responsibility to prepare them for the real world.
As for the title...that doesn't apply to all ESIs. It's an overgeneralization.
Only when I know that someone is capable of helping and I'm in an important situation.You’ve done many nice things for ESI and one time you won’t do something for them
ESI: with a tinge of harsh criticism “I recognize who you are now!” As in you just showed your true colors to me never mind I’ve been so nice to you
My car needed a jump and my grandmother lived 10 minutes away. I called to ask her to jump my car. At the time, I was living in my car. It was dark out. My car doors only lock electronically, they don't let me manually lock them. In other words, I was in a situation where I was about to be unsafe because of my doors being unable to lock while I'm sleeping in my car. Mind you, I also had everything I own in it, so there was plenty of motivation for a robber. I was also stuck in a place where I had to call 911 a few days prior to this situation. I had them stay on the phone with me while I got the fuck up out of there because some dude was being creepy. My grandmother knew all of these things. When I asked my grandmother to come jump my car, she said no because she was already in her pajamas.
My thoughts/perceptions: she doesn't care about me all that much, considering this is a safety issue. She prioritized the fact that it was inconvenient above my safety.
This was my emotional reaction:
"Its fine, this is more like what i am used to from family anyway. then people wonder why i stay cautious, guard my heart, keep a distance, its bc when i really need someone the most, no ones ever there. then im supposed to believe that im cared about? that is a shallow form of love. that is why i keep a distance. Like i really thought you were different than them, and not the kind of person thatd have your female granddaughter asking around a bunch of strangers at night with no phone to even call 911 if something happens bc its about to die, just bc youre in your pjs so its a bit inconvenient."
Her response: "Stop using your phone I'm coming"
I'm not sorry.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-11-2023 at 06:19 AM.
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