Beta and intensity

[seeking it]

So this intensity thingy about Beta.... all that intensity, drama, theatrics and chaos and these supposedly being seen as extreme, obnoxious behaviours and whatnot, by other quadras. How do the Beta introverts pull that off, especially IEI-Ni and LSI-Ti?

But even IEI-Fe or LSI-Se, I don't know how they would be doing it?

With IEI-Fe the ones I've known seemed too low key for that, even if entertaining, and with LSI-Se the ones I've seen (know none of them closely, I've talked more with LSI-Ti's), they CAN stir up shit but they seem really one-dimensional about it, so it's not what I'd call theatrical.

The ones I can think of mainly just talk about their beliefs, convictions loudly and are really divisive, but they are not emotionally refined whatsoever about it, it's just - at worst - spreading conspiratorial ideas and similar paranoid accusations. Really one-dimensional, again. And they genuinely seem to believe those things, too.

Two other one LSI-Se's I can think of were quite intelligent and I saw no such "drama" from them. Definitely nooooo conspiratorial bullshit. And they haven't been divisive like that either, at all. At least not in public.

I've seen some posts on this forum with some introverted Betas fucking around pretty hard - in short bursts anyways - but are they really like that in real life too?

The two LSI-Se's I would see as intelligent and refined, I've not seen any such trolly behaviour from them, but maybe they were just more careful about where they'd let out such impulses, in public or more in private with the right people maybe? I don't know, and I didn't know either of them that closely.

So, do Beta introverts have to first get real fucked up to be able to even act like that? Let alone real big drama...or what I imagine or would call as such.

I really do have the same question about Beta extroverts, too....

Hope I am making some sense. As I'm trying to pull several threads of thought together here. Let me know.

[nifl]

IEI has Fe in the ego, so this is easy and natural for them - only they're quieter and more passive than EIE as introverts
LSI react positively to Fe and seek it out in others, it is more switched on in Fe company

basic theory

[seeking it]

IEI has Fe in the ego, so this is easy and natural for them - only they're quieter and more passive than EIE as introverts
LSI react positively to Fe and seek it out in others, it is more switched on in Fe company

basic theory

This is way too abstract theory-y for me to be able to make use of it. It does not answer my question at all.

[Metamorph]

The theatrical aspect is less pronounced with introverts although still noticeable at times . It’s in the decisions they will take and how they respond to challenges that you can see the intensity and passion in all the members of Beta Quadra imo. The introvert will be more lowkey compared to the extrovert but if they are in competitive situations they will try big and you see that it’s being driven by strong passion that give them this intensity . It’s a central Quadra thing too apparently they fight for power you can count gamma too ig but beta is ascending which make them bolder so they take the cake.

I saw that LSI definitely can be very extra in the right situation. Don’t know much about IEI

What does that have to do with beta? Maybe betas are competitive in sports, but they don't have Te so they aren't going to be competitive in things that matter. I'd think betas are kind of the least competitive people, since Hilter is generally considered a beta and you can't exactly heil him if you see him as usurping your ego rather than some mystical perception of it. I'd think democratic quadras are more competitive, generally, so probably mostly gamma.

[EIE H]

I see the intensity more in groups settings… like they feed off the energy of others. The extroverted betas often initiate/instigate the emotional energy while the introverted ones play off it. One on one with beta introverts can either be pretty serious or goofy but calm.

I usually see the trolling a lot more if they find a particular audience or on social media platforms but less so in real life.

[Metamorph]

Also you think alphas are more competitive than beta ? How?

Because if you're in an aristocratic quadra and you think the fascist dictator is the avatar of Shiva incarnate to save the Aryan race, competing with them is blasphemous.

[EIE H]

Also, when I was talking about trolling and being theatrical, I was talking about saying or doing ridiculous over the top things to get a rise out of people but not necessarily meaning it.

For example, my LSI-Se friend used to joke about wanting to eradicate the homeless population like H1tler’s Final Solution. But then he would be the person to freely and happily give some money to or cook meals out of pocket for homeless people. The emotions behind the loaded statement basically expressed the irritation that he felt towards homeless people who weren’t willing to help themselves. It was also a way for to test how others would react to him…in a way.

Probably not the best or healthiest example, but I think it illustrates a point.

[EIE H]

Also, with some of my close beta friends, we have had very heated conversations, threatened to cut ties, and then make up days later…that’s what I mean by dramatic.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

IEI thought his SO cheated on him and shaved her head
also stabbed his classsmates
xxxtentaction beat his gf for cheating on him. also smashed someone's head on a sink in prison for looking at him bc he was worried he thought he was gay (and his music and visuals)
j davis indulged with groupies and attacked his band members while drunk (and his music and visuals)
trans IEI would shit stir in a lowkey manipulative dismissive way or by hints or by talking down on someone. drunk on some guy's bday they let themselves be wild got slapped by the guy for it then took 2 sisters to bitch talk him and cut off the relation. would cut get drunk and spiral in negative thoughts often also the trans thing
IEI tore a hearstring over heartbreak and needed surgery for it


LSI threw a chair during physics class bc ILI was unclear or unfair according to him about why he got a worse grade than he wanted or smth with scheduling
LSI on quora advocated locking a kid in a cage for misbehaving
adam talked about an LSI punishing/disciplining her cat by locking it
avril lavigne and putin are LSI
LSIs often get mad at random things nad want to punish/hurt/opress them bc they feel opressed by someone expressing a thing. they also often insist on being polite despite intending and justifying cruelty and murder over absolute nonsense, and if ur not polite about that u also get punished. im not gonna say this is all LSIs but ive seen it often. one would take out aggression on his sis then became a drug addict. another is underweight gets by cigs

beta STs are more likely to get physically aggressive and get offended by some made up rule about how things should be while their Ne is used to project nonsense ideas about how others want to hurt and manipulate them.
marilyn manson EIE sexual predator keith reinere too. ted bundy, athene wins

a lot of beta NFs end up having fibromyalgia. i also believe most beta NFs have multiple personality disorders.

https://youtu.be/cYRHDm5X424 SLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlnpkrJs6wM SLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fifk9DfJt6o SLE

have to say all that is not particularly worse compared to gammas

i have eating problems energy problems spinal problems sitting too much too long staring at screen bc i couldnt do anything better wasnt properly allowed to express myselfa nd tend to my needs. used to want to order things related to OCD/autism couldnt bc it was always changing so i let go of that to an extent much larger than most people (its been said multiple times on this forum beta NFs have trash hygiene). couldnt troll ppl irl too much bc they are too offended and when u stand out u will be a target but when u are wronged u have to bear it bc ur forgetable and when they forget what they did and do smth wrong agian ur not allowed to complain if u dare assert borders u will get shit on more. i couldnt even express properly what i wanted to when i wanted to. i lied so much my mind got twisted up. obsessing over perspectives to understand others because they never made sense. schizo thought patterns and awareness of higher things most ppl dont have or refuse to use. replace myself with adaptations intrusive thoughts barely controllable tried to condition myself to not break when witnessing or experiencing violence and torture so i would avoid getting traumatised and stuck in horror not being able to move anywhere with my life being dependent on ppl who try to make it worse and are the reason i can barely function in the first place. my face changed so much and i overanalyzed everything i couldnt perceive VI eaisly like some people can so i didnt believe in it initially but kept trying and now i can identify psychopaths other illnesses astrology and personaltiy types also tried to figure out how high intelligence works and move beyond my limits which i kind of did which was related to sitting too much and causing spinal problems. tried to exercise made me mentallyi ll bc thats what happens hwne ur not in full cointrol and awareness of everything hence why most ppl are cognitively limited and impaired. wore no shoes ate raw meat in public (Not because i was attention seeking but because i was starving first 7 hours each day after 8 hour fast during sleep and bc since it had no fat i was constantly starving so i needed it asap)

[nifl]

Keith Raniere is mb IEI
Allison Mack, his associate during the cult, is likely EIE

[AWellArmedCat]

So this intensity thingy about Beta.... all that intensity, drama, theatrics and chaos and these supposedly being seen as extreme, obnoxious behaviours and whatnot, by other quadras. How do the Beta introverts pull that off, especially IEI-Ni and LSI-Ti?

But even IEI-Fe or LSI-Se, I don't know how they would be doing it?

With IEI-Fe the ones I've known seemed too low key for that, even if entertaining, and with LSI-Se the ones I've seen (know none of them closely, I've talked more with LSI-Ti's), they CAN stir up shit but they seem really one-dimensional about it, so it's not what I'd call theatrical.

Pull it off? I can't help but be dramatic. I don't think I'm all that "low key" lol

For me it particularly shows up in groups or in romantic situations. In groups I can get pretty carried away with my personal political or philosophical opinions and tend to start addressing the group very theatrically and in a "grab your pitchforks and torches" kind of way. I find it almost concerningly easy to rile up likeminded people when I've started drinking a little. I am hyper aware of my audience though. If I sense that the majority is not on my side I will never approach this sort of behaviour and will likely be very reticent about expressing my opinions at all. It's when people start agreeing with me too much that I suddenly became the spokesman of the revolution.

In a similar vein, when I'm romantically involved I have a tendency to "amplify" the other person's and my own emotions and bring them out to their fullest intensity. I *really* like to feel the intensity of passion and I like to draw the other person I'm with into an equally powerful state of emotionality. I've always found this very easy to do with the right setting, timing, and a few carefully placed poetic words. My current girlfriend keeps telling me how surprised she is that I always know exactly what to say and how to say it.

I think those two examples are fairly similar though in that they're a reflection of how I view social interactions in general. They always feel very RPG video-gamy to me. Like every conversation I just see the little dialogue options appearing with little notes next to them about whether the dialogue options are light sided, dark sided, or neutral, along with how much influence they'll buy me with the other person. I almost never make a mistake and choose the "wrong" one, and on the incredibly rare occasions when I do make a miscalculation here I brood over it for an incredibly long time because I simply don't make those types of mistakes. The rarity causes them to be burned into my memory every time they happen. I still remember miscalculations from when I was 7 or 8. The social mistakes I have made weren't even that serious, but the fact that they happened at all causes me quite a lot of long-lasting distress.

In general I'd say I'm oriented towards the amplification of some already present emotion in my audience. Whether the audience is a single person or a hundred doesn't seem to matter. I notice some emotional string that I am already in tune with and I strum it, and maybe slip in a few of my own if I guess that they would be agreeable to the people I'm playing for. It may sound a little like manipulation, and sometimes I wonder if it is, but it really is just the way I naturally behave, and I don't pluck strings falsely. I do feel *with* my audience and I don't aim to deceive, though I may "exaggerate"

[Mairon]

Also, when I was talking about trolling and being theatrical, I was talking about saying or doing ridiculous over the top things to get a rise out of people but not necessarily meaning it.

For example, my LSI-Se friend used to joke about wanting to eradicate the homeless population like H1tler’s Final Solution. But then he would be the person to freely and happily give some money to or cook meals out of pocket for homeless people. The emotions behind the loaded statement basically expressed the irritation that he felt towards homeless people who weren’t willing to help themselves. It was also a way for to test how others would react to him…in a way.

Probably not the best or healthiest example, but I think it illustrates a point.

Yeah, this is very common in LSIs imo. Maybe every LSI I know does this in some way.

For exemple, I had this LSI friend who cursed and insulted some people just in front of me, then when he met them 5 minutesater he treated them as if he were the most polite boy on earth, and when they left he came back to insult them while talking to me (and his tone of voice and rage were kinda exaggerated)

He did the same towards me, talking behind my back with others. Paradoxically "he cared a lot", in his own way, and I believe it. But it was really unsustainable.

Other LSIs are better at hiding it, some less so. In this case I think it is an imbalance between the Creative Se and the demonstrative Si, plus suggestive Fe. The need to say something sh1tty to free their Se energy knowing they have to appear calm to others to fit in (demonstrative Si's social expectation).

I'm pretty sure I'm also from Beta Quadra, and indeed I behave in a similar way.

[EIE H]

Yeah, this is very common in LSIs imo. Maybe every LSI I know does this in some way.

For exemple, I had this LSI friend who cursed and insulted some people just in front of me, then when he met them 5 minutesater he treated them as if he were the most polite boy on earth, and when they left he came back to insult them while talking to me (and his tone of voice and rage were kinda exaggerated)

He did the same towards me, talking behind my back with others. Paradoxically "he cared a lot", in his own way, and I believe it. But it was really unsustainable.

Other LSIs are better at hiding it, some less so. In this case I think it is an imbalance between the Creative Se and the demonstrative Si, plus suggestive Fe. The need to say something sh1tty to free their Se energy knowing they have to appear calm to others to fit in (demonstrative Si's social expectation).

I'm pretty sure I'm also from Beta Quadra, and indeed I behave in a similar way.

Hmmm, interesting. Yeah, it definitely seems like a freedom of expression thing… the more negatively someone reacts to it, the more the ante is upped.

[Tallmo]

This is way too abstract theory-y for me to be able to make use of it. It does not answer my question at all.

It is basic theory though, just as nifl said. This is not just about Beta. It goes for all quadras that certain elements are valued although half of the type are weak in this area. You have to observe the types in all quadras in order to see how the quadra values show. In Beta it's Se and Fe that can give the impression that these types value intensity.

[godslave]

Imho, Beta Quadra has a bad name because of the list of famous people representative of that Quadra. There are a lot of crazy people, dictators etc... I think that it's not fair to make a generality out of some exceptions. I mean there are institutions like, the Military, Police, Fire fighters etc and they are full of LSIs. People who risk their lives for the sake of others. One must capture the spirit and the essence of healthy representative of TIMs and not the crazy ones !

All that discrimination going around is really disturbing because most people have a hard time dissociating TIM (a chart really !) from real people and systematically attribute reputational based traits to the people representative of those types. That's literally generalising stereotypes and that's a discrimination imho. Expressions like Beta Quadra types are [fill the blank with a stereotype based on crazy historical figures] contributes to the spread of confusing informations because it instills doubt in both representatives of those types and people who might be one of those types but don't relate to the stereotypes and as a result don't consider the possibility of having a TIM of that Quadra.
Another thing that might add confusion is the fact that some people mistype others and take them as examples to illustrate how a real person of that TIM behaves but we can't be sure that said person has been correctly typed. I have good reasons to believe that it is easier to type others than ourselves...

Every individual is a unique representative of his or her TIM because your TIM doesn't define you as a person. Your biography can not be contained in a chart nor that of a 16th of humanity and that's the truth. Also I have the impression that most of what is looked for when it comes to evidences of certain behaviors of this particular TIM and to a certain degree the whole Quadra, is no less than typical teenagers behaviors. I think it's a rather literal understanding of what is said about this Quadra and it's exaggerated imho.

When it comes to LSI, I prefer to see it as the Archetype of the Samurai who lives by his code (Bushido) rather than the dictator mass murderer. It might be naive but at least it's another perspective on LSIs. but it's just me.

Even if the samurai Archetype might represent a certain subtype of LSI (or even sometimes SLI) I think that it captures its essence esp the Ni "HA" which is an incarnation of some kind of code or Dogma (Law) that the LSI lives by. To be fair, that code can also be found in some holy books or religions and that can sometimes forge a fanatic mentality esp under the influence of crazy Beta NFs unfortunately.

Finally , I think that almost all LSI (and ESI) have an E6 fix and anxiety is always present in some form until they find some kind of serenity in a greater cause or philosophy. I suspect that it's the whole point of Ni HA looking for certainty, a truth justifying their actions in the name of it.

Anyway, sorry for the drama and note that I don't know what I'm talking about. I 'm just speculating about what could be happening in a situation like this ! (What ? No I'm not imitating Dr. Todd Grande !!)

[seeking it]

Thanks everyone, that made a lot of sense.



@10k do you have an example of Betas taking blows & give up stuff to get the goal that Gammas will not get into/will not risk doing?

@Mairon yeah Ive known LSI-Tis with rude humour that is basically just these hardline insults. I don't know if you meant that when talking about the LSI friend cursing and insulting people.

@EIE H yeah I get that example re: the joke about the homeless people...so if people didn't react well to this, what would he do?

Because if you're in an aristocratic quadra and you think the fascist dictator is the avatar of Shiva incarnate to save the Aryan race, competing with them is blasphemous.

Man it would be nice to believe in something like that, but common sense gets in the way even when it shouldn't.

Even if the samurai Archetype might represent a certain subtype of LSI (or even sometimes SLI) I think that it captures its essence esp the Ni "HA" which is an incarnation of some kind of code or Dogma (Law) that the LSI lives by. To be fair, that code can also be found in some holy books or religions and that can sometimes forge a fanatic mentality esp under the influence of crazy Beta NFs unfortunately.

Finally , I think that almost all LSI (and ESI) have an E6 fix and anxiety is always present in some form until they find some kind of serenity in a greater cause or philosophy. I suspect that it's the whole point of Ni HA looking for certainty, a truth justifying their actions in the name of it.

Oh you mean like @Coeruleum Blue said about thinking the fascist dictator is the avatar of Shiva incarnate to save the Aryan race? All is clear, thanks to you two.

Pull it off? I can't help but be dramatic. I don't think I'm all that "low key" lol

Oh ok, must just be my perception of IEIs then.

But yeah, if an IEI feels comfortable enough...I've seen them get really theatrical for entertainment purposes as well as to express their opinion about something. I saw this recently actually, from a woman who I wouldn't have imagined would ever get that expressive.

I think what you described, I'd only see it as manipulation if it's done for a self-serving goal (and then it doesn't really matter if that's done via faking emotions or some other method)

[seeking it]

It is basic theory though, just as nifl said. This is not just about Beta. It goes for all quadras that certain elements are valued although half of the type are weak in this area. You have to observe the types in all quadras in order to see how the quadra values show. In Beta it's Se and Fe that can give the impression that these types value intensity.

Sure it's basic theory....wasn't answering my question anyhow. What do I do with four letters (Se, Fe), blah blah.

[EIE H]

@seeking it: He would get annoyed, rant about how people can’t “take a joke”, openly mock their “offense”, and might try to piss them off further, sometimes it may end in a physical altercation. The reaction is mainly of defensiveness. Other times, he might try to deescalate things depending on what he wants to get out of the situation.

Again, an extreme example, but I think it’s almost like a comical caricature of how LSI-Cs can be. [LSI-Cs can be extremely stubborn hardasses with a fierce independent streak, sometimes to their own detriment].

Interestingly, he and I are becoming close friends again even after all the dramatic back and forth. Just learned to disengage/give a muted reaction when he’s going too far with the attention-seeking/trolling. Love the dude, but he can be quite the character.

[Mairon]

When it comes to LSI, I prefer to see it as the Archetype of the Samurai who lives by his code (Bushido) rather than the dictator mass murderer. It might be naive but at least it's another perspective on LSIs. but it's just me.

Even if the samurai Archetype might represent a certain subtype of LSI (or even sometimes SLI) I think that it captures its essence esp the Ni "HA" which is an incarnation of some kind of code or Dogma (Law) that the LSI lives by. To be fair, that code can also be found in some holy books or religions and that can sometimes forge a fanatic mentality esp under the influence of crazy Beta NFs unfortunately.

Finally , I think that almost all LSI (and ESI) have an E6 fix and anxiety is always present in some form until they find some kind of serenity in a greater cause or philosophy. I suspect that it's the whole point of Ni HA looking for certainty, a truth justifying their actions in the name of it.

What you said in regard to LSIs it's due to Ti lead configurated with Ni AH. Principles + "meanings". And that's make perfectly sense.

It's embarrassing to say, but I felt a strong resonance with your words. As if you had summed me up in a few simple statements. And it felt... weird.

Ironically, a friend of mine once said that he sees me as a samurai, citing both my focus on my principles and my search for meaning. During my days I often find myself writing small "philosophical" sentences related, for example, to why it is right to live in a certain way, and how to face difficulties.

I also think that religions establish a sort of code who help people to live at their full every aspect of life without haste. Savoring life slowly, getting to know all its aspects little by little, in order to give them meaning, instead of consuming everything to move on to the next.
It would be complex to tell this to every person, being an hard concept. So religions just help you "believe" it is right, even if you don't know why. Society is imposing us a too fast pace.

Anyway, I think that LSIs in unhealty states have a distorted vision about principles. They justify their evil actions with the excuse they didn't get their due. They could even search justification in facts related to infancy.

For exemple, my aunt is a unhealty LSI. Despite "loving" her family (her brother, who is my dad, and her nephews) she tries everytime to take something from us or damage the value of our things to show us she can have control on our things (Se creative). She is 65 and still claims that my dad got more luck from life and more care and love from their mother, despite it being completely false. For exemple, she couldn't have kids, while my father could, so this is an excuse to damage, because he had something while she had "nothing". Another of the roots of these thoughts is for exemple the fact my dad was sent to a terrible board where priests treat you like sh1t (my dad even planned to escape). That's because to her being sent to a board it's an aristocratic trait, and she would have liked it (in her mind). She repeat this thing too much often and I'm pissed off. They find excuses even in absurd things just to do what they want, even when they actually got already more than others. infact, the ironic part is that she is rich as f4ck, and got way more "things" respect to my father. Also, he is a lovely brother to her and always accepts her sh1t.

[EIE H]

To clarify, I usually don’t mind the polarizing thoughts. The friction usually comes when the other party is in an emotional rut and there’s nothing I can do. Unhealthy LSIs seem to get lost in their ideas and lose in touch with how they actually feel.

I have had several conversations with LSIs where they are ranting about hating everything and not caring about anything/anyone for hours. It’s unnerving and then I try to gently talk them down a ledge. That’s why I believe betas are prone to nihilism if they get too philosophical/lack purpose without much real world action. Betas need to be out doing things or they tend to become very masochistic and destructive.

[lookin4waifu]

Grungy and emotional black holes of darkness type intensity rather than the joker etc

[rizz]

Intense like prison rapy kinda way anal sex scene.

[seeking it]

What you said in regard to LSIs it's due to Ti lead configurated with Ni AH. Principles + "meanings". And that's make perfectly sense.

It's embarrassing to say, but I felt a strong resonance with your words. As if you had summed me up in a few simple statements. And it felt... weird.

Ironically, a friend of mine once said that he sees me as a samurai, citing both my focus on my principles and my search for meaning. During my days I often find myself writing small "philosophical" sentences related, for example, to why it is right to live in a certain way, and how to face difficulties.

I also think that religions establish a sort of code who help people to live at their full every aspect of life without haste. Savoring life slowly, getting to know all its aspects little by little, in order to give them meaning, instead of consuming everything to move on to the next.
It would be complex to tell this to every person, being an hard concept. So religions just help you "believe" it is right, even if you don't know why. Society is imposing us a too fast pace.

Anyway, I think that LSIs in unhealty states have a distorted vision about principles. They justify their evil actions with the excuse they didn't get their due. They could even search justification in facts related to infancy.

It feels like this is the Ti subtype....My Ni is really lower than this. I seek the Ni in LSI-Ti people. Idk.... I'm no samurai, no way. well OK, I know I did take up a spiritual-moral "code" from some books a long time ago (that a beta NF guy gave me, I was into the guy of course ).... I stayed with it for very long and it did give me a kind of serenity but I dropped it because it was too nice, too poorly adjusted to the harsh, cold, hard reality around us. I'm back to just doing traditional morality with some bits of extensions of mine, but yeah..... It was not true serenity. Plus serenity is boring to me anyway. But then I'm too addicted to anger probably.

I do have a text file on my computer for jotting down the little philosophical thoughts of mine but they do not include how it is right to live in a certain way. They are never about how to face difficulties. They really are just philosophical plays on thoughts. (Plays but I do believe them too, they are nicely logical too or just feel beautiful.) I don't need philosophy to face difficulties because I just go face and overcome the difficulties and obstacles. I need no further dive into meaning or philosophy beyond that, as this ITSELF is what is meaningful to me. And I find it foreign talking like "the right way to live"....yes I have some strong opinions but I never call it "the right way to live", for some reason. Hmm....

Maybe some of this is also because I do not have an E6 fix. But then LSI-Ti friend also does not have any E6 in him, I don't think, and he does see what's "the right way to live".

I'm also like too emotionally neutral and factual to be able to imagine myself getting fanatic because of some EIE cult leader, lol.

But again, this idea about "help people to live at their full every aspect of life without haste. Savoring life slowly, getting to know all its aspects little by little, in order to give them meaning, instead of consuming everything to move on to the next". This is tooooo peaceful and toooooo slow to me. I'm sorry to admit but I do do that, consume everything to move on to the next moment. I have an E5 or E7 Head triad fix btw.

Or maybe all this is me being D in DCNH (or in DISC, as well). Too dominant and goal-oriented D to be a follower of a beta NF cult, or to want to have peace and a slow pace of life

Anyway, I think that LSIs in unhealty states have a distorted vision about principles. They justify their evil actions with the excuse they didn't get their due. They could even search justification in facts related to infancy.

What do you mean about infancy?

Unfortunately I do relate to the bit about the distorted vision, temporarily at least when I was more unhealthy. I got really bad, black and white about some principles about morality. Ironically enough, I started healing when one day I suddenly admitted (and even wrote it down!) that I feel very morally lost. (I no longer feel lost like that)

Aside from that, I think if I acted "evil" or cruel before (at least I felt it was very cruel, but I was forced to act that way), I did not try to justify it too deeply... I do not see it as an excuse that I didn't get my due. It was to even the score, yes. Eye for an eye type of morality. Not an excuse, this world is simply like that. It was cruel both to the other person and cruel to myself too, but it had to be that way. Don't know if I'll ever forget it

But when someone else wronged me even more (the worst ever in my life) I had the chance to truly ruin the person's life and I did not go ahead with it. I did not philosophise about that either.... I was like, I was about to start and execute my plan of revenge and then a bit later I realised that I just want the most constructive direction in my life, not bad drama pulling me down. To this day, I do not know if the drama would've been really just "bad drama" leading nowhere, or if it would've helped me in some way. It is possible it would have, but also possible that it would've been too risky. But again I needed several months before I realised it involved some risk. By then I'd already moved on with my life. And I do not regret I did not do the huge revenge move, I feel like it helped me stay respectable both in my own eyes and in other people's.

So anyway my philosophising is really abstract for the most part. Where I make up rules and create principles, it is not so deeply philosophical, so all that stands apart from those thoughts, idk why. But the principles can still be idealistic. I just do not have any well or deeply thought out philosophical or spiritual reasoning for any of it, despite them being a bit idealistic and even romantically idealistic in some cases. I think this is because I get way more focused on the "rules" and "implementation" part than the "principles" part.

[seeking it]

To clarify, I usually don’t mind the polarizing thoughts. The friction usually comes when the other party is in an emotional rut and there’s nothing I can do. Unhealthy LSIs seem to get lost in their ideas and lose in touch with how they actually feel.

Nice summary for what constitutes unhealthy LSI. No really, this was good. I'd like to hear one on the other Betas too, if possible, unhealthy EIE, SLE, IEI.

That’s why I believe betas are prone to nihilism if they get too philosophical/lack purpose without much real world action. Betas need to be out doing things or they tend to become very masochistic and destructive.

My LSI-C ex was like that....I never got like that, I am not sure why not.... it's a principle of mine to be against nihilism, lol. (My simple reasoning for it: it's depressive bullshit.) Another one is, to always keep going, and to always have a goal. So those help me

Intense like prison rapy kinda way anal sex scene.

See that's what I can't relate to.. I'm no criminal

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

First off- if it wasn't obvious, I don't think this is really based on superficial behaviors, somebody acting like a clown is often universally annoying. And Deltas can enjoy over the top behaviors and Betas can loathe them. It's more about deeply ingrained thought patterns that may or not turn into behaviors - and how comfortable you are 'staying there.' I can stay in the fight and negativity/chaos mode kind of forever, even if I don't really want to fight or be negative myself. I suppose if that's all you see about me, it does make me sound kinda creepy but it is what it is. With Deltas, what they think and believe and do, they like it all to be more in alignment/congruent - and the dark underbelly makes them misunderstand/confused, this trolls them and they need Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Joel Osteen, Esther Hicks or Oprah to come in and save them. I would think it has to do with Merry vs Serious as well. If your mind is in Hell and you value serious-ness, you will take it more seriously your mind being in Hell - rather than making friends with the absurdity?

A friend of mine on here said that Deltas are walking away from the abyss, Betas are in the middle of it all- that's a good way to describe it to me. I don't think Deltas are more morally superior though, since a lot of what Deltas preach about is more theoretical anyway.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

and being IEI and the most morally good-est Beta, I enjoy being raped and then listening to a meditation CD for balance. Why limit your life?

[rizz]

And Deltas are assholes inside.

[seeking it]

First off- if it wasn't obvious, I don't think this is really based on superficial behaviors, somebody acting like a clown is often universally annoying. And Deltas can enjoy over the top behaviors and Betas can loathe them. It's more about deeply ingrained thought patterns that may or not turn into behaviors - and how comfortable you are 'staying there.' I can stay in the fight and negativity/chaos mode kind of forever, even if I don't really want to fight or be negative myself. I suppose if that's all you see about me, it does make me sound kinda creepy but it is what it is. With Deltas, what they think and believe and do, they like it all to be more in alignment/congruent - and the dark underbelly makes them misunderstand/confused, this trolls them and they need Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Joel Osteen, Esther Hicks or Oprah to come in and save them. I would think it has to do with Merry vs Serious as well. If your mind is in Hell and you value serious-ness, you will take it more seriously your mind being in Hell - rather than making friends with the absurdity?

A friend of mine on here said that Deltas are walking away from the abyss, Betas are in the middle of it all- that's a good way to describe it to me. I don't think Deltas are more morally superior though, since a lot of what Deltas preach about is more theoretical anyway.

What quadra is it if you hang at the edge of the abyss trying not to fall down into it?

Thought Eckhart Tolle was typed as IEI-Ni, and Esther Hicks & Oprah as EIE, but atleast Oprah yeah. Don't really know the other people you listed

PS: I'll be really brutally honest.....I am not sure if Deltas exist except for my sister

And Deltas are assholes inside.

I thought they were the real arseholes with being the wife beaters, abusive relationships, domestic violence (LSE more than SLI let alone the delta NFs sure). Stereotypically ofc.

[seeking it]

and being IEI and the most morally good-est Beta, I enjoy being raped and then listening to a meditation CD for balance. Why limit your life?

Sry, this was the best laugh today so far.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

That would probably just be aristocratic quadras in general maybe. Cannot see the equality or common good amongst other people or themselves, somebody always has to be the abuser and/or the victim. Or socionics is just bullshit. (Probably the greater truth)

I'd put Oprah being EIE over Eckhart Tolle being IEI- he's EII as fuck to me. Though they are all Delta thinking to me. The patronizing, holier-than-thou ness etc.

[Mairon]

I do have a text file on my computer for jotting down the little philosophical thoughts of mine but they do not include how it is right to live in a certain way. They are never about how to face difficulties. They really are just philosophical plays on thoughts. (Plays but I do believe them too, they are nicely logical too or just feel beautiful.) I don't need philosophy to face difficulties because I just go face and overcome the difficulties and obstacles. I need no further dive into meaning or philosophy beyond that, as this ITSELF is what is meaningful to me. And I find it foreign talking like "the right way to live"....yes I have some strong opinions but I never call it "the right way to live", for some reason. Hmm....

Yeah I think what I said explains in general terms how I use my Ni function. I'm sure every LSI has his own way, and yours doesn't sound like so different (at least to me)
Probably when in healty states an LSI may be interested in philosophy per se (Ti in my opinion could be connected to philosophy too, not just Ni).
Still, diving too much in Ni is not a good thing for LSI imo. We are still Se creative types. When we use Se creative less It's because Ne polr is activating for some reason (giving us fear of possibilities), so Ni turns on to help you until you get back balance, and it could happear more a tool to overcome psychological difficulty rather than "physical" obstacles. Indulging too much in hidden agenda with this purpose could mean being stuck, so it's good that you don't waste too much time with it the same way.

But again, this idea about "help people to live at their full every aspect of life without haste. Savoring life slowly, getting to know all its aspects little by little, in order to give them meaning, instead of consuming everything to move on to the next". This is tooooo peaceful and toooooo slow to me. I'm sorry to admit but I do do that, consume everything to move on to the next moment. I have an E5 or E7 Head triad fix btw.

It's interesting. I find a lot of traditional people falling in this category, yet someone is more driven by "consume". It is normal btw. Some LSI-Se I know is this way, plus LSI are emotivists.

What do you mean about infancy?

Unfortunately I do relate to the bit about the distorted vision, temporarily at least when I was more unhealthy. I got really bad, black and white about some principles about morality. Ironically enough, I started healing when one day I suddenly admitted (and even wrote it down!) that I feel very morally lost. (I no longer feel lost like that)

For exemple, very unhealty LSIs I know always speak to me about why what they do it's right, even when they act very cruel out of nowhere. For exemple, a girl I know tries to manipulate his brother even if this guy loves and helps her always (this guy is a SLI, and his Fi mob is completely concerned with her sister). I asked her why she is so cruel with him (because she sets things in order to damage his brother) and her response things like "when we were kids, mom bought to my brother a bike, while I received a doll. She always preferred him to me". This is not an isolated case. Other LSIs I know do exactly the same thing and are also unhealty.

So anyway my philosophising is really abstract for the most part. Where I make up rules and create principles, it is not so deeply philosophical, so all that stands apart from those thoughts, idk why. But the principles can still be idealistic. I just do not have any well or deeply thought out philosophical or spiritual reasoning for any of it, despite them being a bit idealistic and even romantically idealistic in some cases. I think this is because I get way more focused on the "rules" and "implementation" part than the "principles" part.

Implementation and rules for LSIs are their gift to the world. Fe suggestive still seek an idealistic purpose, although being "simple": to create the perfect structure in order to make people live better and in a comfortable enviorment (Ti way to bring indirect Fe results)

[EIE H]

@Seekinu it: most average-healthy LSIs aren’t going anywhere near the “abyss”. That one LSI friend I have is just not the exemplar of mental health. Untreated trauma/PTSD, depression can really do a number on a person.

[seeking it]

I’ve had sex with an SLE and I’m not sure what people are calling “intense” but it was rather sensory and romantic. Maybe people just love to create Socionics stereotypes so that they can type better. Ultimately though it was hard for this SLE to keep fidelity. He cheated on most of his girlfriends. I didn’t feel any particular conflict. Also I feel like conflict with EII DOESNT come out unless SLE steps over close relationships to get to their goal but most often SLE are fun. Maybe he wasn’t SLE but I have come across a lot of SLE who aren’t aggressive assess so not sure why there’s such a difference

Maybe SLI?

[seeking it]

Yeah I think what I said explains in general terms how I use my Ni function. I'm sure every LSI has his own way, and yours doesn't sound like so different (at least to me)
Probably when in healty states an LSI may be interested in philosophy per se (Ti in my opinion could be connected to philosophy too, not just Ni).
Still, diving too much in Ni is not a good thing for LSI imo. We are still Se creative types. When we use Se creative less It's because Ne polr is activating for some reason (giving us fear of possibilities), so Ni turns on to help you until you get back balance, and it could happear more a tool to overcome psychological difficulty rather than "physical" obstacles. Indulging too much in hidden agenda with this purpose could mean being stuck, so it's good that you don't waste too much time with it the same way.

What feels different to me about how I do it is I don't really use it to justify so many things in life and I just go ahead forcefully and I'm more impatient too and not interested in patience as a virtue? And it's just a play in my free time, and I don't even try to do it, it just either comes to me as a realisation or it doesn't. I cannot dive in like you describe it. My ESI-Se friend is able to dive in, I'm not. As far as philosophy, I look at most of it and I go instantly like... "this isn't anchored to anything concrete in reality". Philosophy of science is interesting though

Where you mention Ne PoLR.... I do not think of or fear possibilities I may have a very vague sense of something bad but that's all. Heh. Do you think of more than one bad possibility and are they like concrete mental images of the possibilities for you?

Where I have wasted time before was trying out some unconventional way to solve unexplicably occurring, very complex problems, and it's torture trying to do the unconventional approach or unconventional way of thinking....but I end up learning from that anyway. But until then it's PURE torture.

Also, I've wasted the most time on trying to figure out some of my emotions. You can't force that but I naturally just tried to force it like with everything else.

For exemple, very unhealty LSIs I know always speak to me about why what they do it's right, even when they act very cruel out of nowhere. For exemple, a girl I know tries to manipulate his brother even if this guy loves and helps her always (this guy is a SLI, and his Fi mob is completely concerned with her sister). I asked her why she is so cruel with him (because she sets things in order to damage his brother) and her response things like "when we were kids, mom bought to my brother a bike, while I received a doll. She always preferred him to me". This is not an isolated case. Other LSIs I know do exactly the same thing and are also unhealty.

Wow that's some grudge holding there.

Implementation and rules for LSIs are their gift to the world. Fe suggestive still seek an idealistic purpose, although being "simple": to create the perfect structure in order to make people live better and in a comfortable enviorment (Ti way to bring indirect Fe results)

I feel like I am not enough Fe suggestive for this. I'm more concerned with my own achievements....but yes maybe some of this too. I do get helpful with people. By implementation I meant just doing things in reality for my goals or to help other people. Rather than think up abstract ideas and never manifest them in reality. So manifesting them, making them real is what I called implementation. It's just that my way of helping people has never (yet) involved creating a perfect order or whatever. How does this play out in your life?

[Mairon]

What feels different to me about how I do it is I don't really use it to justify so many things in life and I just go ahead forcefully and I'm more impatient too and not interested in patience as a virtue? And it's just a play in my free time, and I don't even try to do it, it just either comes to me as a realisation or it doesn't. I cannot dive in like you describe it. My ESI-Se friend is able to dive in, I'm not. As far as philosophy, I look at most of it and I go instantly like... "this isn't anchored to anything concrete in reality". Philosophy of science is interesting though

Maybe you are a "pure" LSI, with not unbalance. You use mainly your creative and your intuition is not stuck in abstract sh1t. You correspond more to common LSI description respect to me (infact this lead me to frequently mistype myself). So, in brief, don't worry if you see differences in regard to what I wrote before. I underlined something just because there are LSIs with a more abstract Ni (who seems more like IEI but aren't for sure). My aunt too doesn't like abstraction too much and always says "these things are not for me". It's more common for LSI to have less abstraction and to be more interested in the real world.

Where you mention Ne PoLR.... I do not think of or fear possibilities I may have a very vague sense of something bad but that's all. Heh. Do you think of more than one bad possibility and are they like concrete mental images of the possibilities for you?

Maybe speaking only about fear it's not helpful, so I will make a better argument. It is like that having Ne polr they neglect possibilities which are not connected to their proper view about something. For exemple, my aunt has finished university and worked in a firm with a specific role (computer sector). She has this fixed idea that if you don't have a degree you can't be respected, while if you have a degree you are automatically worth. So, my brother (ILE lol) has not finished university and has not got a degree, but ended up doing a similiar work in computer sector just because he had competence. My aunt stated this is unjust because people should follow a precise canon path to do a work, and she went completely crazy (instead of being happy for his nephew). I don't know how to express better this thing, but in everything she says to me I always feel she "choosed" to believe ther's only a possible way, and shortcuts are to condemn, because express lack of self discipline: still, she used shortcuts too, but when you state this to her, she replies "Yes but I already had a degree, so I was worth". Like I said before, it is like they create a structure of principles and use it to "justify" theirselves.

Where I have wasted time before was trying out some unconventional way to solve unexplicably occurring, very complex problems, and it's torture trying to do the unconventional approach or unconventional way of thinking....but I end up learning from that anyway. But until then it's PURE torture.

This is very similiar to what I said about my aunt and I think it is Ne Polr. Ni Mob has the role to support the LSI way of doing things and to someone it gives "faith" in what they are doing, even if there are people out there that play only with unconventional methods. Going out of binaries creates a sense of loss. My way to cope with it is having a more "abstract" structure of principles, for exemple. Other LSIs may be less philosophical but still stick to a sort of conventional way of doing things.

I feel like I am not enough Fe suggestive for this. I'm more concerned with my own achievements....but yes maybe some of this too. I do get helpful with people. By implementation I meant just doing things in reality for my goals or to help other people. Rather than think up abstract ideas and never manifest them in reality. So manifesting them, making them real is what I called implementation. It's just that my way of helping people has never (yet) involved creating a perfect order or whatever. How does this play out in your life?

Another way to see Suggestive Fe is liking expressive people who can create a good atmosphere and the desire to develop more skills related to Fe. The suggestive is a function that every type seeks in the everyday life but sucks at it. It can be also translated into create order to indirectly affect the atmosphere in a good way. When I have more time I will write something about my experience.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

So this intensity thingy about Beta.... all that intensity, drama, theatrics and chaos and these supposedly being seen as extreme, obnoxious behaviours and whatnot, by other quadras. How do the Beta introverts pull that off, especially IEI-Ni and LSI-Ti?

But even IEI-Fe or LSI-Se, I don't know how they would be doing it?

With IEI-Fe the ones I've known seemed too low key for that, even if entertaining, and with LSI-Se the ones I've seen (know none of them closely, I've talked more with LSI-Ti's), they CAN stir up shit but they seem really one-dimensional about it, so it's not what I'd call theatrical.

The ones I can think of mainly just talk about their beliefs, convictions loudly and are really divisive, but they are not emotionally refined whatsoever about it, it's just - at worst - spreading conspiratorial ideas and similar paranoid accusations. Really one-dimensional, again. And they genuinely seem to believe those things, too.

Two other one LSI-Se's I can think of were quite intelligent and I saw no such "drama" from them. Definitely nooooo conspiratorial bullshit. And they haven't been divisive like that either, at all. At least not in public.

I've seen some posts on this forum with some introverted Betas fucking around pretty hard - in short bursts anyways - but are they really like that in real life too?

The two LSI-Se's I would see as intelligent and refined, I've not seen any such trolly behaviour from them, but maybe they were just more careful about where they'd let out such impulses, in public or more in private with the right people maybe? I don't know, and I didn't know either of them that closely.

So, do Beta introverts have to first get real fucked up to be able to even act like that? Let alone real big drama...or what I imagine or would call as such.

I really do have the same question about Beta extroverts, too....

Hope I am making some sense. As I'm trying to pull several threads of thought together here. Let me know.

I think Fe is a thing that shows more IRL. Also, a lot of times, people who are actually Fi can seem Fe online because Fi valuers can be more expressive in things like writing, art, or music, without actually demonstrating mood or feeling in day to day interactions. People sometimes mix up emotional outlets with Fe emotional expression, but that isn't everything Fe is about. Furthermore, a lot of people show their inner worlds more online/in writing, especially introverts.

...eurgh, back to not posting about Socionics after this. Such a dead subject for me, personally.

[seeking it]

I think Fe is a thing that shows more IRL. Also, a lot of times, people who are actually Fi can seem Fe online because Fi valuers can be more expressive in things like writing, art, or music, without actually demonstrating mood or feeling in day to day interactions. People sometimes mix up emotional outlets with Fe emotional expression, but that isn't everything Fe is about. Furthermore, a lot of people show their inner worlds more online/in writing, especially introverts.

...eurgh, back to not posting about Socionics after this. Such a dead subject for me, personally.

Thanks for posting anyway even if it's a dead subject for you personally. Tbh for me too, but I wanted to tie up some loose ends.

Btw, my post was a lot about behaviour IRL really.

[seeking it]

Maybe you are a "pure" LSI, with not unbalance. You use mainly your creative and your intuition is not stuck in abstract sh1t. You correspond more to common LSI description respect to me (infact this lead me to frequently mistype myself). So, in brief, don't worry if you see differences in regard to what I wrote before. I underlined something just because there are LSIs with a more abstract Ni (who seems more like IEI but aren't for sure). My aunt too doesn't like abstraction too much and always says "these things are not for me". It's more common for LSI to have less abstraction and to be more interested in the real world.

Thanks for the compliment about me not being unbalanced.

There are certainly advantages, but disadvantages too to not being able to reflect for long, let alone at will. It makes planning harder if it's not just about planning the next day or the next week. But then again, I do not need that much planning, let alone in detail. I end up deciding important points of these more mid-term (not short-term) plans when I really must, I get fired up and I'm somehow able to then.

Maybe speaking only about fear it's not helpful, so I will make a better argument. It is like that having Ne polr they neglect possibilities which are not connected to their proper view about something. For exemple, my aunt has finished university and worked in a firm with a specific role (computer sector). She has this fixed idea that if you don't have a degree you can't be respected, while if you have a degree you are automatically worth. So, my brother (ILE lol) has not finished university and has not got a degree, but ended up doing a similiar work in computer sector just because he had competence. My aunt stated this is unjust because people should follow a precise canon path to do a work, and she went completely crazy (instead of being happy for his nephew). I don't know how to express better this thing, but in everything she says to me I always feel she "choosed" to believe ther's only a possible way, and shortcuts are to condemn, because express lack of self discipline: still, she used shortcuts too, but when you state this to her, she replies "Yes but I already had a degree, so I was worth". Like I said before, it is like they create a structure of principles and use it to "justify" theirselves.

I actually understand your aunt. When younger I used to have fixed ideas like that. I'm now more "open-minded", but with reluctance only. I never truly feel good with it. It's just societal expectations forcing it on me, lol.

BTW, as far as shortcuts, I would have a problem with them because it's just not fair to get ahead like that lol. I don't care this much about self-discipline. But yeah I mean I can care about how much self-discipline people have when it's about being competitive about it, lol. Bc I always look at things from a very competitive mindset

Also I think if I can see how well the person performs in their job role, if they give a REALLY convincing performance then yea I would be convinced that the person deserves the position.

This is very similiar to what I said about my aunt and I think it is Ne Polr. Ni Mob has the role to support the LSI way of doing things and to someone it gives "faith" in what they are doing, even if there are people out there that play only with unconventional methods. Going out of binaries creates a sense of loss. My way to cope with it is having a more "abstract" structure of principles, for exemple. Other LSIs may be less philosophical but still stick to a sort of conventional way of doing things.

That is cooool, got an example of developing a more abstract structure of principles to solve such problems with overly black and white fixed ideas?

With me it's more like, I try to force open-mindedness, I can do that faster than developing the more sophisticated abstract structure of principles. I can do that too but it really takes me longer to arrive there. I love it though, while I always feel "meh" with the forced open-mindedness.

(OK, so you can see how I feel SLE next to LSI-Ti's like yourself. Bc I think the open-minded crap is Ne, and the principles stuff is Ni, yeah. Except SLE would not feel Ne is AS much a torture trying to do an unconventional method when forced to veer off the conventional path)

I am still curious if you think of more than one bad possibility and are they like concrete mental images of the possibilities for you. ?

I asked my LSI-Ti friend and he said he does think of concrete mental images of a bad possibility or possibilities yes. (Not sure how many of them but definitely not just a vague something feeling like a "really very bad outcome" like for me)

Another way to see Suggestive Fe is liking expressive people who can create a good atmosphere and the desire to develop more skills related to Fe. The suggestive is a function that every type seeks in the everyday life but sucks at it. It can be also translated into create order to indirectly affect the atmosphere in a good way.

I like expressive friends yeah....as far as the desire to develop more "Fe" skills, yes I relate but it's something VERY recent for me and I really do not have big aspirations in this area I really am very resigned when it comes to aspirations as far as Fe: what happens to work, cool it works!, and what happens to not work...well bad luck.

I realise I do better if I can make a principle out of it tbh. Like.... for example, how to win someone over to support your goal using emotional influence, rather than stir up conflict, arguments and even hostility. I've found I can create principles there but only if all this is done for a concrete goal I want to achieve lol

So it's not really all that nice or idealistically naive like wanting the perfect structure to make people's lives better, happier or like what some Fe bases supposedly want to believe about the world needing to be kind and loving. That for me is overkill Fe lol

When I have more time I will write something about my experience.

Feel free to, I'm all ears.

[persimmonism]

Beta is intense. yeah.
SLE are "stereotypically" aggressive. IEI are ethically, existentially violent. Both are simultaneously aggressor & victim.

"in Beta Quadra society there arises a harsh struggle for power, for the dominant position in the system. Everyone strives upwards; all fight for the right of personal domination. "

​Both are equals.

[Sol]

IEI are ethically, existentially violent.

Physical violence is linked with Se mostly. All Se valued types are inclined to such methods and side of life. May like or easier to accept in art. Who have S weak should show physical force not much themselves, compared to Se and mb Si.

> Both are simultaneously aggressor & victim.

Ni may be serious aggressors in their dreams. Se may _play_ a victim.

> "in Beta Quadra society there arises a harsh struggle for power"

All types struggle for "power" related to their valued strong functions.
Gammas are similar in related to Se. As example of difference with betas by T/F, they lesser like hierarchies (Ti) and pompous propaganda (Fe).