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Thread: IEI / ILI and "decisive" dichotomy

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    in dire need of needing life Fransiskus's Avatar
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    Default IEI / ILI and "decisive" dichotomy

    After reading the decisive/judicious dichotomies and comparing it to the IEI/ILI description, my reaction was "no way they're decisive..."

    Even their description seems to contradict the idea that they are "decisive".
    It is possible that Wikisocion has a translation issue, but it is also important to consider other factors and perspectives when evaluating this information.

    I wonder how they have the decisive dichotomy. What does it mean for them and how does it work? Should we rely on Reinin dichotomies?

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    Reinin dichotomies are mostly useless
    no irrational type is very ''decisive', and some of it just overlaps with Se/Ni values, meaning that what isn't directly contradictive to the theory is just superfluous
    it's better to just rely on the elementary theory, as it is speculative enough already and needs to be more or less verified practically by the individual before dabbling in more advanced and probably nonsensical theories even has any sense

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    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fransiskus View Post
    After reading the decisive/judicious dichotomies and comparing it to the IEI/ILI description, my reaction was "no way they're decisive..."

    Even their description seems to contradict the idea that they are "decisive".
    It is possible that Wikisocion has a translation issue, but it is also important to consider other factors and perspectives when evaluating this information.

    I wonder how they have the decisive dichotomy. What does it mean for them and how does it work? Should we rely on Reinin dichotomies?
    Reinin dichotomies are built mathematical symmetry in mind, I think. Reinin is a mathematician. So basically you chop the structure in terms of 1 and 0 or something many times and give names to them. Hence those names can be misnomers.

    To be exact intuition/sensing, rationality/irrationality, extroversion/introversion, logic/ethics are also Reinin dichotomies.
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    May look like an LSI, but -Te. Metaphor's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as indecisiveness/decisiveness in Ni. Therefore, if you don't think it by yourself, it won't be easy to discern this matter.
    However, judicious/decisive dichotomies mostly relate to Quadra values, specifically Ti/Fe (clarity-seeking) vs Te/Fi (integrity-seeking).
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    Yeah, this is one very obvious problem among many with the Reinin dichotomies, both the names and the classical descriptions. Ni base types have low Se and are characteristically not decisive at all.

    https://sedecology.blogspot.com/2019...chotomies.html

    But, this dichotomy happens to be one that can be defined easily in terms of Model A and the presence dichotomies, it just means SeNi valuing. So it actually is meaningful and not a speculative construct in the way that, say, Process/Result is.

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    Don't take the name literally , being Decisive means that you value both Ni and Se , it doesn't mean that you're really " Decisive "

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    Lo'taur ! godslave's Avatar
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    In socionics a lot of terms don't mean what they are supposed to :

    Introversion/ Extroversion ; Rational / Irrational ; Tactical / Strategic ; Aristocratic / Democratic ; Yielding / Obstinate ; Constructivist / Emotivist (I think this one won the best nonsense oscar !) ; Carefree / Farsighted ; Judicious / Decisive etc..

    If you have to warn the reader more than once that the terms he or she is reading have different definitions than that of the common language then you're either an initiated of an occult order, a mathematician or a fool !

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    In socionics a lot of terms don't mean what they are supposed to :

    Introversion/ Extroversion ; Rational / Irrational ; Tactical / Strategic ; Aristocratic / Democratic ; Yielding / Obstinate ; Constructivist / Emotivist (I think this one won the best nonsense oscar !) ; Carefree / Farsighted ; Judicious / Decisive etc..

    If you have to warn the reader more than once that the terms he or she is reading have different definitions than that of the common language then you're either an initiated of an occult order, a mathematician or a fool !
    The usual problem among humans actually. So I could play further with relativism and ask about cultures, life whatever. Afaik Jung meant extro and introversion as relation towards something (extends into an object intensifies towards the subject) - as per normal superficial views Fi seems very extroverted at cursory glance because it can deliver beneficial qualities to intimate environment which is very much what Jung said about this introversion.
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    May look like an LSI, but -Te. Metaphor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    In socionics a lot of terms don't mean what they are supposed to :

    Introversion/ Extroversion ; Rational / Irrational ; Tactical / Strategic ; Aristocratic / Democratic ; Yielding / Obstinate ; Constructivist / Emotivist (I think this one won the best nonsense oscar !) ; Carefree / Farsighted ; Judicious / Decisive etc..

    If you have to warn the reader more than once that the terms he or she is reading have different definitions than that of the common language then you're either an initiated of an occult order, a mathematician or a fool !
    Yeah, there were many explanations of how these dichotomies work, including the research that was conducted in 2003 about it.
    But still, those weren't really suffice to explain the underlying mechanism of each - I even had to re-define those for the sake of curiosity.
    Constructivist/Emotivist, for example, mostly correlates to ethical rational/logical irrational - ethical irrational/logical rational dyad.
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    Lo'taur ! godslave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Yeah, there were many explanations of how these dichotomies work, including the research that was conducted in 2003 about it.
    But still, those weren't really suffice to explain the underlying mechanism of each - I even had to re-define those for the sake of curiosity.
    Constructivist/Emotivist, for example, mostly correlates to ethical rational/logical irrational - ethical irrational/logical rational dyad.
    Yes, some people have to kinda reverse engineer the terms used in dichotomies to their basic meanings in order to accept or reject them.

    When we declare : "Judicious / Decisive (Central / Peripheral - Reasonable / Resolute) basically means valuing Ne/si or Ni/Se", we just skip the reasoning behind it and that include the word choices. Note that I mentioned all the variants of this particular dichotomy so we can see how confusing that is. Such variations don't make any semantic sense since all those terms are supposed to describe the same phenomenon despite not being synonymous. What we are really saying is : "don't mind about the Ti and just look to the chart then you'll find out that those are the Alpha and Beta Quadra Types".

    I think that a lot of people approach those dichotomies that way because all you have to do is take a look at the charts. In fact, that's exactly what I did in order to have a general idea of all that stuff when I begun my socionics investigations. Figuring out the rationale behind those dichotomies was a second phase, as far as I'm concerned I prefer to work like that (general view and, if I'm interested, follow the rabbit hole). I think that Reinin (and some others !) cared more about the mathematical symmetry of his dichotomies than the terms used to tag them imho. I suspect that there might be some translations issues too.

    I have the tendency to see things in "spectrums" and I'm not a fan of dichotomies even if I understand that some of them are primordial and necessary. TIMs are like engines diagrams, pictures of different parts and their interconnections. However, our psyche is not a static picture, it's a dynamic and living phenomenon in which creation and destruction are part of an organic cycle. I feel like dichotomies are like a dissection of the psyche. However, the psyche as a whole have connections with all those concepts so dichotomies separate stuff which are supposed to be in contact like an electric circuit. There are no clear "either/or" cuts in our psyche, everything is connected as it should. TIMs don't capture the organic and dynamic essence of a real human being. Our thoughts process can be full of flaws, bugs and contradictions compared to the model theories. We all have "defective parts" which don't align with our TIM, socionics have a lot of manufacturing defects at the end of its production chain. Our psyche is part of the human condition and as such it is aso imperfect, thank God!

    Btw, Jack Aaron (WSS) is doing a remarkable serie on that right now on his YTC. Jack focused on different combinations of valued IE (other than those blocked together) namely the Lead and the Mobilizing together and make themes out of them to sort of capture an essence shared by two particular TIM. I agree with him, in fact I think very similarly but I'm not quite as confrontational as he can be like when he challenges in combat debate people ! Jack came a long way since his debut in the socionic community and that's admirable !
    Last edited by godslave; 12-28-2022 at 05:45 AM. Reason: reframing again ! I couldn't understand what I wrote !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I don't agree to this statement, considering that Beta is judicious by Quadra dichotomies while Gamma is decisive.
    But in my opinion, these dichotomies as a whole are mostly related to the continuation of Model A, or a tad defective Model G.
    No, Beta is decisive

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Btw, Jack Aaron (WSS) is doing a remarkable serie on that right now on his YTC. Jack focused on different combinations of valued IE (other than those blocked together) namely the Lead and the Mobilizing together and make themes out of them to sort of capture an essence shared by two particular TIM.
    My Alpha quadra description (published almost two years ago) also addresses the skew blockings (which I named and identified years ago).

    (Actually the idea of structuring quadra descriptions by combinations of their valued elements was suggested by a discord user named StrayS.)

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    Professional IEI Identifier on a peaceful hiatus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    My Alpha quadra description (published almost two years ago) also addresses the skew blockings (which I named and identified years ago).

    (Actually the idea of structuring quadra descriptions by combinations of their valued elements was suggested by a discord user named StrayS.)
    The description is really good, but I think M.C.Escher is an IEI. He's very abstract, but otherwise this describes me quite well. I also don't see myself as a perfectionist, unless it's something that really interests me, otherwise I just think 'whatever, good enough'
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    May look like an LSI, but -Te. Metaphor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Yes, some people have to kinda reverse engineer the terms used in dichotomies to their basic meanings in order to accept or reject them.
    I don't really do reverse engineering but eh, you got my point eventually.
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
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    I don't know, I think it fits tbh. IEIs are probably known for putting a neat bow on things, and that fits with the definition of being decisive. I think you are reading too much into the word, like 'decisive' at first glance kinda sounds like ur being a strong and arrogant str8 male about things. Decisive-ness isn't really about that tho- like ur influencing the character with the definition too much. Being decisive just means you have a very conclude- -way of speaking- look at the way VewyScawwyNawcissit talks and it's clear to me, it has this finality to it. To me, IEIs are very decisive actually despite also being fairy wisp fags.

    It also relates to Te polr. In contrast, people heavy with Te aren't decisive at all- they are wishy washy about everything because Te is often about being lost in the wilderness until things go ur own way or you convince yourself you are right even tho ur just being power hungry etc.

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