Autistic vs Non-Autistic Fi-ESI men

[Grendel]

Now imagine an autistic who chooses to delve into the latter without any sense of pride and who somehow either doesn't have or successfully keeps major psychological issues (e.g. attachment issues) from really affecting them and their conclusions. "Charisma" is, if you really study it, a "skill" that can be learned by and large much like how PUA's talk of "Game".

Doesn't neuroplasticity begin to disappear by the end of childhood though? As I understood, the reason developmental milestones are such a concern to new parents is because there are certain functions that simply can't be "re-learned", with any amount of effort, once the respective developmental window has closed. That's the reason it's so easy to learn your first language as a baby, but incredibly difficult to acquire a second as an adult, right?

Like, don't the autistic tend to do stuff like recognize human faces with the same part of the brain relegated to ordinary objects, whereas neurotypical people have separate centers dedicated to faces, or something? I know I read about that somewhere.

[End]

Doesn't neuroplasticity begin to disappear by the end of childhood though? As I understood, the reason developmental milestones are such a concern to new parents is because there are certain functions that simply can't be "re-learned", with any amount of effort, once the respective developmental window has closed. That's the reason it's so easy to learn your first language as a baby, but incredibly difficult to acquire a second as an adult, right?

Like, don't the autistic tend to do stuff like recognize human faces with the same part of the brain relegated to ordinary objects, whereas neurotypical people have separate centers dedicated to faces, or something? I know I read about that somewhere.

There is some merit in what you say. Developmental milestones are easy to pass through at certain points and once past them it's incredibly hard to alter them but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to fix them. It's just exceedingly difficult. This is why Martial Arts instructors of any kind (i.e. including marksmen) prefer totally and utterly "green" trainees to those with any form of experience in the field for it means there are no "bad habits" they're going to have to train out of them.

For instance, take muscle memory. To go from "totally green" to "memorized" on that front takes about 2,000 repetitions. However, if you "memorized" a bad habit it's gonna take 10,000 repetitions to fix that particular problem.

This doesn't exactly translate for Language (for it is true that young children are better able to pick up other languages than adults if you teach and immerse them in them for some reason much like it's possible for them to attain "perfect pitch" then but not later in life) but it does translate for attachment issues and pretty much anything else you'd care to mention now that I think on it. If you get the proper habits right from the get-go, then life is pretty easy on that front. Once you "memorize" bad attachment styles for instance it's incredibly difficult to "fix" them, but it is far from impossible to do so.

This would, I presume, be the case for the people focused autist I mentioned. Hard as hell for them to actually achieve the goal, but not impossible and hey, maybe the experience could and would benefit many others if they had the ability to articulate it in words and write a book about it for other autists (or hell, even other "neurotypicals" as they put it). Despair is a lot of things and, in addition to being sinful, it's utterly illogical on this front!

[lookin4waifu]

To be clear, by gay jokes I mean acting “sus” and making a complete fool of myself for attention. I was never really a bully. I think I acted more like a stereotypical ADHD kid up until I was 13-14 - I was outgoing and always outside, but once I got to highschool I just couldn’t keep up with my peers mentally and haven’t recovered since. To this day, I still feel like a crass, overly honest middle schooler trapped in a grown man’s body

At least your body isn’t like mine

[lookin4waifu]

Some of my other autistic traits:

Perseveration, which is what I'm doing now

Normal people often don’t notice when I’m being sarcastic/joking

Usually feel more drawn to/inspired by objects and art than people. Some of my special interests are rap music, streetwear, cars, interior design, architecture, photography, skateboarding, anything Japanese, etc. mostly for aesthetic reasons though

Concrete/overly-linear thinker. I'm good enough at math, excel and learning rote procedures to hold down an office job, but I've always hated writing English papers and have trouble with open-ended questions like "what does X mean to you?", "How do you embody X/[corporate buzzword] trait in your day to day life?

People have always been "inexplicably" put off by me even though I'm supposedly above average in looks, have good hygiene and grooming, dress well etc., probably because the way I move and speak gives off an uncanny valley effect. Even when I think I'm making a good impression, I'm most likely not. People suddenly becomes boring, awkward, antisocial and too busy when i try to build a rapport with them

I connect with people through shared interests as opposed to experiences, dreams, hopes, aspirations, life philosophies, etc. I don't have any emotionally resonant, colorful stories to tell because I've been a robot my entire life

We’d all like to see this uncanny valley effect. Post video.

[maresnest]

You understand how you off put people. People with autism dont.

nah this ain’t it. autism is a profile that varies from person to person. i have sensory processing issues, am intense about my (more niche) interests, and very pattern-seeking. i don’t have many friends irl because my friendships are based upon interests first and foremost. but my metacognition of my own mind is extremely developed, and i’ve learned how what i do and say will affect others. i’m highly aware of this because i’m sensitive to burdening other people in any way and i’m highly avoidant of feeling rejected by others. i am officially diagnosed btw.

edit 3/2/24: hitting a point of growth where they dont need to be based on shared special interest, thank you thc

[Beautiful sky]

let it shine

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

People have always been "inexplicably" put off by me even though I'm supposedly above average in looks, have good hygiene and grooming, dress well etc., probably because the way I move and speak gives off an uncanny valley effect. Even when I think I'm making a good impression, I'm most likely not. People suddenly becomes boring, awkward, antisocial and too busy when i try to build a rapport with them

I think that's off putting for people because it sounds shamelessly narcissistic even if u aren't. Good hygiene, grooming dress well- I think a lot of society expects males to be more rough around the edges and more stupid blue collar looking like because then it's like you're both more useful and more easily manipulated. I can see how that can rub people the wrong way- tho not saying it's your fault or anything.

ppl probably have the trope in their heads of the rough around the edges looking small-town hero that's trustworthy vs the urban male that's narcissistically good looking and decadent, but also evil, and that rubs ppl the wrong way- even though the narc looking male could be good, and the blue collar male could have ppl in their basement.

Oh no, am I empathsizing with Karens?

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

https://www.tumblr.com/vewyscawwynaw...s?source=share

^ those people are autistic. cacie dalager is diagnosed with autism, im not completely sure what her type is but she looks ESI

she does remind me of u visually that i remember but idk if shes -Se or -Fi

[Averroes]

I think that's off putting for people because it sounds shamelessly narcissistic even if u aren't. Good hygiene, grooming dress well- I think a lot of society expects males to be more rough around the edges and more stupid blue collar looking like because then it's like you're both more useful and more easily manipulated. I can see how that can rub people the wrong way- tho not saying it's your fault or anything.

ppl probably have the trope in their heads of the rough around the edges looking small-town hero that's trustworthy vs the urban male that's narcissistically good looking and decadent, but also evil, and that rubs ppl the wrong way- even though the narc looking male could be good, and the blue collar male could have ppl in their basement.

Oh no, am I empathsizing with Karens?

I live in a big city so the amount of effort I put in is just on the higher end of normal. I'll put on a whole outfit just to go to the pharmacy sometimes as opposed to a track suit

[InterPrizeWes]

The spectrum of being weird, different, or abnormal is not needed in the sweet lullabies and sunsets of the enlightened and aspiring remedies of acceptance and top class values of the polished and glimmering emerald.

[Sol]

who’s just shy/awkward and subdued emotionally vs. one who has Asperger’s?

Medics assign diagnoses by criterions of ICD or other system. Criterions are not totally clear, but it's not just "you see this".

> I have zero close relationships, poor emotional intelligence in spite of my advanced age, avoid interacting with people out of either disinterest or shame, and people constantly tell me that I look uncomfortable/angry/sad even when I’m not

General trait to think as a disorder is perceiving of suffering by a human or by other people from him.

-

In my associations Enneagram E9 remind autism. They don't seem to suffer much from being so and other people accept their softness. So this would not fit to common clinical disorder.
Despite they alike live in own world of dreams. Try to adopt to external reality to reduce distracting conflicts with it, to reduce wishes to do changes in it what would need to give it more of their attention. This tendency to surfacely adopt and be liked makes them even cute for external views.
They are opposite what E1 represent in a permanent wish to fix and improve something.
Health would be middle state, while mentioned E types are accentuations similar to Jung type E/I traits.

Resume
You may to have any traits and activity. If having this you feel good. Other people feel good from what you are and do. Then this will not be related to a disorder.
Disorder as a malfunction - is what should be fixed to feel better. If anyone is glad with it - there is nothing to fix and hence would not be a disorder.
This is the border. And it's subjective too, besides objective in something.

[FaeSoleil]

It's important to keep in mind what autism IS. It's not the list of diagnostic criteria - the criteria were written to try and describe, codify and classify autism in a way that you can clearly say who has it and who doesn't. If autism didn't exist independently of those criteria, the list of criteria would never have been written in the first place. Rather, it's tied to the fact that there exists this group of people who seem similar to each other yet very different from a typical person.

The question of official diagnosis is besides the point - the real benefit is that doctors will know much better than your average person where the boundary between these clusters lies from experience. But autism isn't defined by those criteria or whether any given doctor would diagnose it.

The question of if it's a disorder or a variation is besides the point - the grouping exists regardless of whether you think it's a benefit, a difference, or a pure problem to be fixed. Whether society thinks its a disorder or not is basically entirely an external value judgment.

Even just limiting it to people who're formally diagnosed, like, I've seen few solid type-related patterns in the autistic people I know very well. Like, just to list them off: ILE 7, SLI 9, IEI 2, LSE (idk enneagram). Autistic ethical types seem especially deceptive typology-wise because their problems interacting easily with others doesn't mean their thought process/worldview isn't still very emotional/empathetic/ethics driven/etc. Extroverts too - they have the same need to interact as any other extrovert, just... they're awkward af and can't do it well usually.

Best way if you're really worried about whether you have autism is to find a psychologist who actually specializes in adult autism evaluations. They will usually have a balanced perspective and not dismiss people on stereotypes of what autistic people must be like, and actually do due diligence. Unfortunately, from the stories I've heard from autistic people, looking for a random psychologist who doesn't specialize in it is a crapshoot unless you're actually a stereotypical case of childhood autism, not someone who slipped through the cracks while you were young. Autistic people are still people with the ability to learn and adapt, just not perfectly and only with effort when it comes to social norms; unfortunately it seems a lot of psychologists don't know how to still diagnose people with that fact in mind.

[Sol]

It's not the list of diagnostic criteria

A term of clinical diagnosis is a "list of [some] diagnostic criteria" for concrete case. But not only this, certainly.

> The question of if it's a disorder or a variation is besides the point

Autism is a term for a disorder. It's existence and basic traits are defined by clinical criterias of ICD.

> the grouping exists regardless of whether you think it's a benefit

The relation to something as a disorder exists only because that human and/or other people think that as a problem, and not a benefit or neutral variation.

> Whether society thinks its a disorder or not is basically entirely an external value judgment.

It's not "entirely an external value". As even when a human would think his disorder traits as not a problem for him (what is doubtful for autism), he anyway depends from the state and behavior of people who deal with him and influence on him by different ways.

> Autistic ethical types seem especially deceptive typology-wise because their problems interacting easily with others doesn't mean their thought process/worldview isn't still very emotional/empathetic/ethics driven/etc

Any serious psyche disorder is a problem to understand correctly Jung type. Because it may change the behavior common for Jung type to any side, including close for other types.
The similar is with psycho-active substances as meds, drugs, alcohol, etc. They may change some of types related behavior much. For example, good drunk base T may become sentimental on some time to remind F types. While F type under suppressing meds becomes lesser emotional to look or become closer to T.

> Autistic people are still people with the ability to learn and adapt, just not perfectly and only with effort when it comes to social norms

The same is for any deviation of mind and behavior. Though, efforts with existing methods may appear too much to achieve good results. And fiting to "social norms" is not enough, as important is the state of a human and of people with who he deals.

Jung types with duality should make easier to transfer skills and knowledge, as help to establish better contact between people. I suppose for autism the lack of contact is among basic problems. Especially for kids with autism duality IR may give significant help.
Other application of types would be to try reduce Jung type expression (by developing weak functions). This would reduce contact obstacles caused by not good IR with different people.

[FaeSoleil]

It's not "entirely an external value". As even when a human would think his disorder traits as not a problem for him (what is doubtful for autism), he anyway depends from the state and behavior of people who deal with him and influence on him by different ways.

This is called the social model of disability, which holds that disabilities are "disabilities" in part because society doesn't accommodate for it, and implicitly that society should learn to accommodate better. You can say things are "doubtful" all you want, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me of that against having heard a large number of autistic people talking about how they don't consider their diagnosis a problem. They say a lot of reasons ranging from not thinking the negatives outweigh the positives (to them) or that if they weren't autistic they just wouldn't be the same person so it's not even worth thinking about whether it's a problem.

Especially in autism, there's an elephant in the room here that autistic people (as shown by research) don't have problems emphasizing or socializing with each other. This is called the double empathy problem. I've seen it in practice in communities that attract a lot of autistic people (but aren't about autism/related topics). It basically looks exactly like a bad IR going wrong - miscommunications and harsh assumptions that are complete misunderstandings of what people are saying. (A few interesting studies: One that directly measures information flow. This translates into how well people get along. This applies to real world friendships.)

Jung types with duality should make easier to transfer skills and knowledge, as help to establish better contact between people. I suppose for autism the lack of contact is among basic problems. Especially for kids with autism duality IR may give significant help.
Other application of types would be to try reduce Jung type expression (by developing weak functions). This would reduce contact obstacles caused by not good IR with different people.

Honestly, from all I've heard, it does sound like the first time an autistic person meets someone willing to try and understand them rather than just dismissing them as people is a huge deal. A lot of them never get that until way later in life. Just... unfortunately, from what I've seen in practice and from research, mixing autistic vs non-autistic people in general is basically just the equivalent of an bad IR of its own right.

It's one of the many reasons I don't put so much stock on ITR or Socionics as most people here. To me, ITR works (if not even remotely always) only because it's a reflection of a broader principle rather than a ground truth of its own right. For one, I've watched a (different) autistic IEI and a non-autistic IEI talk past each other completely exactly as if they were conflicters and having no success getting them to stop fighting.

On that last part too, I am someone who is just naturally very balanced from a functional/Jungian perspective. I... doubt becoming more like me is going to help anyone, based on my own experiences. I get along with most people, yeah. But only because I'm putting in the effort to adapt to others. There's very few people I can really let go around and act naturally, since 'acting naturally' for me means not caring what sides of me I show - and... the more variety there, the more chance one of those sides is going to hurt or offend someone. I highly, highly doubt any of this is going to be helpful to people who already have problems interacting.

[youfloweryourfeast]

I feel the same way, a lot of the time people have to reach out to me because I have a great tendency to keep to myself. In growing up I had friends as a child but that was because it was easier to just have friends when your little. Now it became more complex for me that I didn't really try to put in effort. I dream of having a fulfilling exciting life but it not something I know how to achieve or do.
My mother is an EIE and vaules fe but her issue is that she has a tendency to say things that are hurtful or take actions without thinking of how it affects the other person.

[loopyclouds]

I dream of having a fulfilling exciting life but it not something I know how to achieve or do.

Relate to your post. What does a fulfilling exciting life look like in your mind?