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Thread: Non-Fe Ego Expressiveness

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    Default Non-Fe Ego Expressiveness

    How expressive can non-Fe Ego types be really? To what extent is mere expressiveness diagnostic of an Fe Ego function? Is any and all expression considered to be the realm of Fe? What role does Fi play in expression?
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    >How expressive can non-Fe Ego types be really?
    depends on whether it is a logician or an ethicist, introvert or extravert, and whether they value Fe or Fi
    least expressive in the Fe sense - XLI, not because of less emotion than other logicians, but because they're indirect due to introversion and prefer softer, more gentle emotions due to Fi valuing

    >to what extent is mere expressiveness diagnostic of an Fe Ego function?
    if the expressiveness is considerable - it's very likely to be an ethicist. if it is closer to the Fe qualities stated below, then that is also more likely. to determine whether a person is Fe or Fi ego needs practical experience, not just theoretical knowledge; try to feel what is more their style, which values they have - and what you like more, what you feel more comfortable with.

    examples:

    Fi


    Fe


    >Is any and all expression considered to be the realm of Fe?
    no, but all emotional expression is in the realm of ethics
    Fe expressiveness is mainly about outward emotional excitement, influence, proclamations of objective ethical labels - Fi expressiveness is softer, more about subjective relations to things and more attentive to what the interlocutor likes
    extraverts are more open than introverts, so their expressiveness is more 'direct'.
    Last edited by nifl; 11-16-2022 at 04:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    >How expressive can non-Fe Ego types be really?
    depends on whether it is a logician or an ethicist, introvert or extravert, and whether they value Fe or Fi
    least expressive in the Fe sense - XLI, not because of less emotion than other logicians, but because they're indirect due to introversion and prefer softer, more gentle emotions due to Fi valuing

    >to what extent is mere expressiveness diagnostic of an Fe Ego function?
    if the expressiveness is considerable - it's very likely to be an ethicist. if it is closer to the Fe qualities stated below, then that is also more likely. to determine whether a person is Fe or Fi ego needs practical experience, not just theoretical knowledge; try to feel what is more their style, which values they have.

    examples:

    Fi


    Fe


    >Is any and all expression considered to be the realm of Fe?
    no, but all emotional expression is in the realm of ethics
    Fe expressiveness is mainly about outward emotional excitement, influence, proclamations of objective ethical labels - Fi expressiveness is softer, more about subjective relations to things and more attentive to what the interlocutor likes
    extraverts are more open than introverts, so their expressiveness is more 'direct'.
    What a great contribution! Thank you so much ^^
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    no problem
    as you're an intuitive ethicist, the easiest way is to feel what kind of logic & sensing you prefer - in general, Se types are perceived as more 'tough', whereas Si types are more 'tender'. with regards to logic, the non-valued variant is perhaps perceived as 'colder' and less sympathetic. I have heard more than one Fe type describe a Te type as 'dry'. whereas I feel that Ti types are 'cold'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    How expressive can non-Fe Ego types be really? To what extent is mere expressiveness diagnostic of an Fe Ego function? Is any and all expression considered to be the realm of Fe? What role does Fi play in expression?
    I think all of my emotional expressiveness that isn't genuine has an element of sarcasm or fakeness. I have no idea whether this passes for real to others.

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    All extraverted functions are expressive in the sense that they manifest outwards. Introverted functions are in-pressive. They dont really show outwards.

    So I wouldnt give any special status to Fe. It is just expressive in the realm of feeling, but Se is expressive in the realm of sensing etc.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

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    examples
    Fi example reminded me of a classmate and less of an ILI old friend from kindergarten

    Fe example reminded me of another classmate though she doesn't really look like her , is she ESE ?
    Souls know their way back home

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    I think that when we talk about emotions we have to bring in some behavior informations in order to see the actual manifestations (or lack thereof ) of those emotions.

    Type with Fe Role (LSE, LIE) can be very expressive ! It's an Fe expression essentially used to convince and motivate people imho. There are a lot of LSEs (less LIEs) on those shopping TV and the commercials which try to sell you some new Items "you can't live without" ! For instance in the fitness or cooking domains. You will hardly see an SLI or ILI playing that kind of role ahaha !

    In order for Fe to be non expressive, Fe has to be one of those positions : PolR, Suggestive or Ignoring. So the less emotionally expressive should be : ILI, SLI, LII, LSI, ESI and EII.

    The Types that don't like to express Fe are EII and ESI despite being always aware of it (they observe it in the environment).

    The types that like Fe but don't express it (or so little) are LII and LSI despite being easily influenced by it if it's strong enough .

    The Type that don't like Fe at all are SLI and ILI, they don't even think about it. If someone expresses it strongly enough they can't stand it and "freeze". They are very caring people ( heart of gold "inside" cliché !) though but feel powerless to deal with strong emotional expressions.

    Fe mobilizing is kinda in the middle some SLEs and ILEs are more expressive than others. But it's kinda weird. The expression of the mobilizing function appears wobbly because it doesn't take in consideration the opposite vertness (polr) of that IE. It's like when everyone looks at you with a surprised and/or shocked expression in their faces when you just made an oopsie without you being aware of it and you go "What ?!".
    Last edited by godslave; 11-18-2022 at 11:42 PM.

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    I think what Two said is pretty good, but I want to add that I think of Socionics as a big picture tool. There's not going to be 100% rules I think on all this stuff and you will always find exceptions for one reason or another.

    So big picture, Non-Fe ego, but valued Fe (ILE, SLE, LII, LSI) get comfortable with Fe-egos over time and will engage emotional displays a bit, enjoying making jokes and comments and seeing how people respond. The Fe egos that supply this will put them more at ease over time and make them more emotionally engaged. It's like letting out a sillier side to yourself where you don't have to worry about Fi taking offense to anything. So when you don't have to worry about offending Fi with Fe-egos, it's nice.

    Non-Fe ego, but valued Fi (LIE, LSE, ILI, SLI) get comfortable with Fi-egos. They like knowing a person's feelings about events/others/situations/etc. and relating their own feelings with them. This is kind of a way to bond over time and feel more connected to other people, so they like the Fi egos that put that out in the open and let them in on all of that, because you can't really know how events are playing out or should/could play out, if you also don't know how people feel about things and what their motivations and driving principles are. When it comes to Fe types and the emotional display, they feel uncomfortable because the way that people feel about things, or Fi, no longer becomes important and this Fi is what drives them, not Fe. So I think these types can appear irritable at times or kind of rude to Fe valuers, if they aren't trying to use their super-ego Fe to not appear that way.

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    to be honest i express myself all the time, my emotions color everything and i try to color my world, in clothes, in hobbies, in manners of speaking. it's all very much there.
    i don't like being too reactive though, i can appreciate acts of grand emotion, but generally i prefer lowkey behavior. it's a way of respecting other people imo
    plus i've found it's best to only speak/express when you're ready to let go of the feeling, as i find when i share things i feel less attached to them suddenly. and attachments are much a priority

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    I always thought of Fe as the bird gets a tic tac toe cardinal direction of venting and releasing and wiring the whole movie screen with dramatic ghost girl lava angels and a ginger bread man Fe whole batch of love.
    Raptor had to lose in 2006 to become Revan, important errands of knighthood and valor to walk with Pokemon and charm the melodies of sweet channels to lush frenzy galloping solo yet swiftly into the sunrise for maximum presents and signed in deluxe oceans of fast trading cards bazooka cascading rumba of love Force constellations restoring last battle cardinal plants actively swirling for juice and petals to wishes
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    How expressive can non-Fe Ego types be really? To what extent is mere expressiveness diagnostic of an Fe Ego function? Is any and all expression considered to be the realm of Fe? What role does Fi play in expression?
    Fe ego: "Perceives information about processes taking place in objects — first of all, emotional processes that are taking place in people, their excitation or subduedness, and their moods. This perceptual element implies the ability to know what excites people, and what suppresses them. It defines a person's ability or inability to control his emotional state, and also the emotional states of other people.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the innate ability to induce or convey his moods to others and energize people with his emotions. He is able to activate the psychological/spiritual lives of other people and their emotional readiness for action. You might say that such a person has the ability to infect others with his moods and tends to impose on others the emotional states that he considers beneficial for their life activities.

    What people usually call emotions or a person's display of emotions is neither more nor less than a form of letting out this internal excitation directly, almost without expending it in muscle activity. A cheerful person who laughs releases an emotional charge and inner excitation through certain movements of the muscles of the face and body. This might be a means for reducing overexcitement, when inner exertion cannot be used for the activity it was intended for. But it can also be a conscious method of conveying one's excitement/agitation to others — inducing one's internal excitement/agitation in the psyches of other people. Anger, for example, is also a way of reducing overexcitement, but it is usually directed not at arousing others emotionally, but at emotionally suppressing and depleting them, at lowering their activity level, or at strictly channeling their activity."

    So it's way way more than "mere expressiveness". Everyone has emotions, everyone will express some here and there, whether alone or in front of others.

    I know some people have to be "Fe ego" in my family because if I look closely it's clear they know HOW to consciously put on an expression to play out some little "drama". I can see how they make it happen and it's kinda funny watching that. Like this one time when they'd think I'd like a particular little drama about a cat that they thought I had some attachment to/like. I mean I appreciate these efforts I guess (I internally really LOL'd about the cat drama too) and I don't think that you even have to be Fe valuing to appreciate some of this stuff, alot of people like nice social, fun, entertaining drama etc stuff, enjoying it at various gatherings even if they don't seek it out alot all the time or whatever, and the emotional regulation for groups as described above works for most people again, putting on the right mood for the situation to direct people's motivations for the task/goal more effectively, and for group cohesion etc., no need to be Fe valuing for such efforts to work on other people i.e. neither the "performer" nor the audience needs to be Fe valuing.

    Also consider how some people can have a loss of emotional regulation and express way more than intended due to stress, mental illness, etc. Best not to link all this with socionics imo
    Last edited by seeking it; 11-28-2022 at 12:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Personally Fe ego types I consider never fail to show expression on the face that is also in line to what they are saying or feeling. There is no delay at all. Very easy to figure out because their emotions just show. If Fe base, it's more in your face and it gives me a feeling that I have to be 'on' emotionally too.
    Great description for alot of it, thank you.

    Interestingly enough, whatever I will end up typing as, it's like, I never really seriously feel that I have to be "on" emotionally for any of these people. If these people (Fe or Fi or Te or Ti or whatever) are nice, kind, welcoming, attentive, considerate, treat me well overall, I'm alright with it no matter who it is. Like I will be able to be feeling more or be more open emotionally or whatever anyways. It will just be good for my emotional life, as in, it will provide the basics for my emotional well-being. It could be 1D Fe or 1D Fi for all I care, as long as the above is true.

    Anyways. With the "Fe base" types I most definitely don't get a feeling like I "have to be" on. Somehow I don't think I have any "space" for having to feel like that around them. Atleast for "Fe subtype", not sure about other Fe base types.

    With some other people who may also be "Fe egos", I sometimes feel like for 0.5-1 second (not longer!!) that I would like to "pony up" some expression myself and then idk, I somehow get to have a little boost of energy to do it? Because I just feel like it enough even if it's also forced (not feeling like it ENOUGH, so it's half real half forced with "feeling like it"). Anyhow I don't know how I manage to actually do that. But I actually can do it around some "Fi bases" too. But forget about trying if I'm not around "Fe/Fi egos". And, that 0.5-1 second need to "pull up" an expression (some bit of enthusiasm), that's ok, it's not bad being "forced" to do this, but also draining if I don't get to "rest" a few seconds before going on. I think actually being "bubbly" is the best word to describe it. Just a really short version of it lol atleast before being 'warmed up' for more

    Either way I'm obviously neither Fe or Fi ego, so take it for what it's worth

    BTW I am not sure if Fe base is always more in your face if I'm supposed to go by all these type examples on here.... or I just don't notice it. Idk. For the examples that are supposedly Fe creative I never have a problem sensing their emotionality or a hint of it. How come?! Do you see it the same way / do you have an explanation for that?

    (Anyone else can chime in too ofc)


    For me non-Fe egos show emotions too and can be quite showy about it in many ways but something is off on the way they express it or like their way of expressing it doesn't match what they look like.
    How does it not match for Fi egos? Especially for "Fi bases" if you can get specific there. You mean the expression does not look smooth or?


    People can joke and laugh a lot but the smiles of Fe egos are just very apparent and they just match the emotional social "vibe" or current, unless they are trying to manipulate the environment somehow which Fe egos I observe also do (and sometimes Fi egos too) but when Fe egos do it, it seems like they pull the environment and make the vibe end up similar to them or at least the effort is enough to provoke people
    The bolded, I agree Fi egos are totally capable of it. I feel like Fi egos are just as emotionally manipulative as Fe egos tbh, including affecting the environment and people around them and I'm pretty sure the "Fi egos" I've known *do* intend to change the feelings of other people. Maybe it's just my delusional reading into their intentions though. But it sure feels that way when they do these big expressions, could be happiness seeing a loved one, or trying to reproach/guilt trip you, or make you feel trusting towards them, etc.... But even when they do not make these bigger expressions, "Fi bases" specifically can still constantly try and make you feel the attitude they want you to feel. They may be really subtle about it but this is just my perception of it.

    I agree Fi egos don't try to work the "room" tho yeah.


    but for other types even Fi egos it seems like it's obvious that the emotion is only for them and they just probably want to show what they feel, without being able to "reach" the other person.
    Yeah, I'd just like to add that I really don't think that Fi egos cannot have their expression for others too. I think their feeling just gets "filtered" through their own attitudes, feelings towards the other person/people. If they very much like/love these people, then I think (in my experience really) they'll have the expression for the loved ones too, not just for themselves, not that selfish/self-centered with it. Again, it's like it "radiates"/comes through their own feeling attitude towards the person but it IS aware of the other person/people just fine. It does feel like the Fi ego (esp. Fi base) and their expression wants to "reach" the other person in this sense. Like, it can be really big expressions in this way when they are around much loved ones and if they are in the mood to show positivity lol. Or when with small kids.

    And again I'm 100% sure they do intend to change the other person's feelings too. Even the Fi bases do intend to do that, I think. Just my impression.....

    The difference may be that Fi egos really do need to be in the mood for it or they have to have very strong attachment/love or strong dislike/hate to be able to do it without having to be in the right mood first. I don't know if that made sense? If you think I'm wrong about this feel free to say how.

    Meanwhile Fe egos can "fake" it all alright, tho' of course they can be sincere too.

    But also Fi creative, they seem to be able to be fake too or atleast inconsistent in their attitudes.


    I remember talking to an ESE and she was so bubbly and outwardly cheerful and her emotional expressions just doesn't waver that I felt the need to conform to it or at least match the energy.
    Would you say Fe creative expressing also doesn't waver? (At least while their drama is going on I mean)

    I'd add here that Fi egos (both base and creative) seem to not keep any of these open displays of expression going for long


    At work an EIE said that he wanted to joke and make things light but actually felt weird initially enough for him not to do that because we work remotely and he needs the visual aspect to make sense of how he would go about the conversations.
    Yeah I've heard "Fe ego" say that to me, that email is too impersonal for her. Tbh though this is cultural too, if the person is old enough or not that old but didn't end up using computers much before, then it doesn't seem to matter if Fe or Fi ego, both seem really awkward at it. It's as if they are unable to figure out how to put indications of their nonverbals (feelings) into all that impersonal text in front of a monitor/phone screen, and I don't mean using emojis. So they end up not being able to write much


    But I don't think logicals refrain from using modes of politeness and cheerfulness, it probably depends on the culture but we are taught to be fun and bubbly and polite so of course everyone would be trying if you know what I mean.
    Yeah where you said logicals have alot of delays in expression, I would say it's more like they know how to put on a mask of politeness or cheerfulness etc. That mask can work without any delay but it's....fake, plenty detached underneath, just a mask. The real feelings may never come out or at least never publicly. That's my understanding anyways. But I think it doesn't matter ethically, because as long as you have an intention to be kind or polite, then that's enough, no one can be faulted for not being able to actually feel it in the moment as that's not under conscious control in these cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Compared to Fe egos Fi bases to me tend to have a very tame emotionality to them, like the surface doesn't tell everything, which also makes sense because like other introverts they also have that look of someone internalizing things. I don't see Fi bases cheering somebody or just expressing some mood towards others in a way that's really in your face. There seems to be no delay when it comes to expressing, but what they express is tamer.
    I would say that's true for EIIs. I find ESIs are able to be intense though and not tame at all. But this coming from a Logical type (again, whatever type I'll end up with here, it'll be a Logical type), I actually feel like ESI can be really in my face with expressions, they are not "unwavering" expressions though like I think I already said.

    And I find they can try and cheer up people or generally influence their attitude emotionally, both EII and ESI, I don't see why they wouldn't. Just not done as neatly as Fe egos can do it, supposedly. And obvious expressions of this are done less often and so on. But indirectly, in subtler ways I think EII and ESI still often try to influence other people's attitudes to things, morally and whatnot. And SEE/IEE are famous for doing so too, influencing other people's valuations, but ofcourse it's in a less consistent way.

    I generally agree with your other observations anyway.


    Some Logicals can be just dead on the face. But I'm not really sure why. My opinion is that it's because Logical types don't actually focus on expression, so they really have nothing to express. Nothing is colored and the internal world is almost plain and empty with emotionality. Given that they would be drawn to jobs and activities that don't require any sort of feelings too, that situation would surely be reinforced too. Well, unless they interact with some Ethical types. I think a Logical type can induce it within himself too but it would be very hard and unnatural, but we have internet and various resources so maybe it can get easier as long as you get a good source.
    Eh well yes ease with feelz depends on how much time you're willing to spend on emo stuff. I wouldn't want to claim that the Logicals' internal world is that empty tho. I mean they (incl me) must have some real emotions, that just come up when they finally get some "speaking time". And their processing can be a really delicate matter if it's ever attended to, I mean.

    Also even the driest Logical type I've known has emotions inside, he just prefers to not focus on them and concentrates on doing tasks, but they're still there anyways. They just remain ignored

    ...I have actually felt like he has more emotions than me, inside, I mean. And showing them less than I would.

    In my case the funny thing is I can have these "real emotions" going on inside while I show no expression externally (at least I hope I don't ). But then sometimes their "intensity" or their "expansiveness" passes a threshold and then it shows on my face*....But I noticed Fe egos often see it sooner than I myself notice that it passed that threshold for expression! And maybe I'm wrong and they can magically sense even the smallest little feelz inside people via some superpower or 7th sense. Even if below that threshold thingy. I'd have to die right here on the spot tho if that was the case

    *: Stronger ones will show in body language too & maybe verbally and blah

    PS: Ofcourse if someone's experience differs from mine, that's fine too, feel free to state it

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