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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Default Related functions

    From Chapter X, Psychological types. I noticed that Jung mentions these relations for all functions so I picked out the paragraphs.


    Te & Fe
    This kind of feeling is very largely responsible for the fact that so many people flock to the theatre, to concerts, or to Church, and what is more, with correctly adjusted positive feelings. Fashions, too, owe their existence to it, and, what is far more valuable, the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises. In such matters, extraverted feeling proves itself a creative factor. Without this feeling, for instance, a beautiful and harmonious sociability would be unthinkable. So far extraverted feeling is just as beneficent and rationally effective as extraverted thinking.
    My comment:
    So something like: Te = externally correct thinking, Fe= externally correct feeling. Thus both can be "beneficient and rationally effective"


    Se & Ne
    Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fully satisfied.
    My comment:
    Highest pitch of actuality/possibilities.


    Ti & Fi
    Primordial images are, of course, just as much idea as feeling. Thus, basic ideas such as God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant as ideas. Everything, therefore, that has been said of the introverted thinking refers equally to introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought. But the fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic capacity before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately [p. 491] presented or communicated to the outer world. Whereas subjective thinking, on account of its unrelatedness, finds great difficulty in arousing an adequate understanding, the same, though in perhaps even higher degree, holds good for subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others it has to find an external form which is not only fitted to absorb the subjective feeling in a satisfying expression, but which must also convey it to one's fellowman in such a way that a parallel process takes place in him.
    My comment:
    This is perhaps the most difficult of them all. Thinking / feeling in terms of archetypal patterns or ideas. Thinking will produce a deep/profound understanding. Feeling will produce a deep/profound feeling for something.


    Si & Ni
    Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervationdisturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance [p. 506] in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades.
    My comment: innervation disturbance (Si) vs. its archetypal source (Ni)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    The reason I made this thread is that I think that pairing functions like this is a good way to gain a deeper understanding of them. They are "sister" functions and it's understandable that Jung wanted to mention them.


    In this forum "dual" functions are often grouped together and meditated upon (Se/Ni etc). But I think this often goes wrong, and misunderstandings can occur. "Dual" functions are essentially opposite to each other, and the reason they "go together" is because they are complementary in the individual, and can also create some problems (see Jung on this). But as pure functions they are opposites and should not be forced to have some common agenda.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The reason I made this thread is that I think that pairing functions like this is a good way to gain a deeper understanding of them. They are "sister" functions and it's understandable that Jung wanted to mention them.


    In this forum "dual" functions are often grouped together and meditated upon (Se/Ni etc). But I think this often goes wrong, and misunderstandings can occur. "Dual" functions are essentially opposite to each other, and the reason they "go together" is because they are complementary in the individual, and can also create some problems (see Jung on this). But as pure functions they are opposites and should not be forced to have some common agenda.
    You've pretty much got it right. Like I've said in regards to my own functions a vision of the future is impossible to act upon by itself. You'd need the capacity to comprehend the present circumstances in all their totality to go along with that if you would hope to realize or avoid a given future vision. Likewise, your internal "feelings" or convictions mean exactly diddly dick without a concrete and ultimately realistic method to bring about whatever moral/personal vision you're trying to bring about.

    To put it another way: is has damn near perfect vision of the past and future but is blind to the present. is murky in regard to its vision of the past and future but is perfectly in tune with the present. can and will, if given time, tell anyone exactly how to accomplish X but has no capacity to determine which X it ought to focus on accomplishing. knows which X it ought to accomplish but is likewise blind to the exact nature as to the optimal of the "how" on that front.

    Hell, might as well go all the way here. knows exactly how to relate any given bit of information to anyone in the best way possible they'll be able to accept/digest it, but it is blind to what exactly it ought to try to relate to anyone at any given time. has the absolute and undeniable truth, but is likewise blind in regard to how to relate that to others in a way they'll bother understand and accept let alone act upon. sees the beauty of the infinite cosmos and has within its grasps so many wonderfully amazing futures it cannot help but embrace. Yet there must come the final choice. Of all the infinitely amazing futures one must choose but one to truly focus on. feels everything so intensely, so personally, so painfully in every specific sense yet is blind as to the why. When wedded to the why is obvious. This is how one may be able to sift through the infinite possibilities presented by and arrive at that truly optimal end (even if they somehow screw it all up).

    I'd argue that this is why given quadras "conflict" in terms of this theory and why conflictors specifically have such a hard time coming to terms with the mindset of their "opposite" as it were. For me and my conflictor it is a mutual vision of horror. I can and will gladly stand alone against the world and die as I viscously take as many fuckers who hate and oppose me down with me because hey why the hell not? The ESE sees this as anathema because surely that stance isn't necessary and not even the most cynical LII is so cruelly sadistic in their glee at that final prospect! If only I could be more gentile or put it all in a better way surely everyone would understand and my refusal to even try sets them off something fierce.

    Trust me, I've tried. Hell, I've even mentioned here on this forum. My most painful lesson was/is that pure objective logic persuades exactly nobody save for the very few like myself who actually value it. Most people (i.e. 99% of all people no matter their IQ score) think rhetorically rather than logically. Thus, if my efforts at "logic" are to ever affect most it'll come after they experience an emotional nadir. That's the sole instance where emotional thinkers will actually listen to "logic" as I perceive and identify it.

    I wish this wasn't the case but it is, sadly, what my own experience confirms to be true. My faith in the Christain God is once again the only thing that keeps me from plunging into the depths of despair...

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    Amen, brother.

    (I'm not a Christian but I agree with whatever keeps people out of the depths of despair.)

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    So something like: Te = externally correct thinking, Fe= externally correct feeling. Thus both can be "beneficient and rationally effective"
    Te = Inductive Thinking or Logic
    Fe = Inductive Feeling or Ethic

    so many people flock to the theatre, to concerts, or to Church, and what is more, with correctly adjusted positive feelings. Fashions, too, owe their existence to it, and, what is far more valuable,
    Fe = Inductive Ethic
    "Well If everyone else thinks this is good then it's probably good."

    the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises.
    Fe+Si

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    I thought these things were "axioms."

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Te = Inductive Thinking or Logic
    Fe = Inductive Feeling or Ethic

    Fe = Inductive Ethic
    "Well If everyone else thinks this is good then it's probably good."
    That could be a way to illustrate it. One could also call it "collective feeling". On the other hand, Jung has already established the concepts objective/subjective, and it works for all functions, so I prefer to use that.

    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises.
    Fe+Si
    It's just Fe in this general example imo, just like Jung says. I see no reason to call this Fe+Si. If you want to describe Fe+Si then we have certain social activities with sensual or impressionistic sensations. Intimate caregiving, sensuality or decorating/cooking in an Fe context. Something like that. One can see glimpses of Si especially in female ESEs. Si if often just seen indirectly, pretty hard to describe. But it's hard to give exact examples as Fe+Si is probably harder to put to use than Fe+Ni.

    Bianca Ingrosso ESE putting on makeup. Not the best example of Fe+Si in action, but something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xkbl4SUMeo
    Last edited by Tallmo; 01-19-2023 at 08:29 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    That could be a way to illustrate it. One could also call it "collective feeling". On the other hand, Jung has already established the concepts objective/subjective, and it works for all functions, so I prefer to use that.
    What is collective feeling? Whatever the majority decides? So we have a cognitive function that reduces a person to a follower? If Fe is really collective feeling then it's inherently worse than Fi because Fi could agree with collective feeling or has the freedom to chart it's own course. So obviously this doesn't make sense.

    Objective and Subjective are grammar terms. Objective in the truest sense would only make sense for extroverted perception since that functions samples observable things. Objective doesn't make sense for the other functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's just Fe in this general example imo, just like Jung says. I see no reason to call this Fe+Si. If you want to describe Fe+Si then we have certain social activities with sensual or impressionistic sensations. Intimate caregiving, sensuality or decorating/cooking in an Fe context. Something like that. One can see glimpses of Si especially in female ESEs. Si if often just seen indirectly, pretty hard to describe. But it's hard to give exact examples as Fe+Si is probably harder to put to use than Fe+Ni.

    Bianca Ingrosso ESE putting on makeup. Not the best example of Fe+Si in action, but something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xkbl4SUMeo
    Per socionics, all functions are linked together in blocks. Hence Fe is always coupled with either Si or Ni. An example of FeNi would be unlocking the full protentional of a person (self actualization) through charm school. Charm / etiquette are intuitive ethical concept. While helping people through a philanthropic or humanitarian organize. The physical state and well-being of people are in the realm of sensitive ethics. Fe makes inductive ethical decisions. The Si type uses physical observative and wants to optimize the physical well-being of people. Likewise, the Ni type uses imaginations or abstractions and they want to optimize the spiritual or social well-being of people.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    What is collective feeling? Whatever the majority decides? So we have a cognitive function that reduces a person to a follower? If Fe is really collective feeling then it's inherently worse than Fi because Fi could agree with collective feeling or has the freedom to chart it's own course. So obviously this doesn't make sense.
    I was just trying to find new ways to illustrate Fe. Maybe it's bad. But Fe can often be about collective values, or commonly accepted values. Fe leads can use it creatively, they might adjust their feeling according to the environment, agree or laugh together with someone in order to get what they want etc. Jung has this classical example that one might say that a painting is beautiful, not because one actually likes it, but because it is "in style", it fits the owner, or is a painting that one generally is supposed to like. No, Fe doesn't make the person a follower, although one could say that their feeling is always in some way determined by something outside themselves. But that's more in the strict cognitive sense.

    Objective and Subjective are grammar terms. Objective in the truest sense would only make sense for extroverted perception since that functions samples observable things. Objective doesn't make sense for the other functions.
    These are Jungian terms in this context. There is an inner world, and an outer world. He discusses this in Psychological Types.

    Per socionics, all functions are linked together in blocks. Hence Fe is always coupled with either Si or Ni. An example of FeNi would be unlocking the full protentional of a person (self actualization) through charm school. Charm / etiquette are intuitive ethical concept. While helping people through a philanthropic or humanitarian organize. The physical state and well-being of people are in the realm of sensitive ethics. Fe makes inductive ethical decisions. The Si type uses physical observative and wants to optimize the physical well-being of people. Likewise, the Ni type uses imaginations or abstractions and they want to optimize the spiritual or social well-being of people.
    Above you labelled this example Fe+Si "the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises.". But I don't see any reason to say that this is linked to Si.

    Functions are coupled in blocks, but many activities could easily be linked to just the base function, roughly speaking.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I was just trying to find new ways to illustrate Fe. Maybe it's bad. But Fe can often be about collective values, or commonly accepted values.
    Values are an abstraction hence they're in the realm of intuition rather than sensation. So Fe by itself cannot be commonly accepted values. Only FeNi could be commonly accepted values. Even so, FiNe is a value based system and FeNi tends to be visions, hopes, dreams, wishes, etc. With that said, I could see an immature FeNi type chasing fame or fortune because that's what society tells him or her to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Fe leads can use it creatively, they might adjust their feeling according to the environment, agree or laugh together with someone in order to get what they want etc. Jung has this classical example that one might say that a painting is beautiful, not because one actually likes it, but because it is "in style", it fits the owner, or is a painting that one generally is supposed to like. No, Fe doesn't make the person a follower, although one could say that their feeling is always in some way determined by something outside themselves. But that's more in the strict cognitive sense.
    I take Jung's descriptions with a grain of salt because Jung's system is based largely on inductionand so it's hard to tell how much of what he sees is accurate and how much is maybe overgeneralizations. Also, Jung didn't think creative functions mattered that much and he lumped both types by their dominant function and that's really bad.

    There is no such thing as "outside of themselves." Introversion and Extroversion have nothing to do with "outside a person." Both of these functions are influenced by the person. Introversion and Extroversion are a choice, like sensation vs intuition or logic vs ethic or perception vs judgement, but I don't know what that choice really is or why it's important.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    These are Jungian terms in this context. There is an inner world, and an outer world. He discusses this in Psychological Types.
    I think inner world and outer world are speculation, similar to his concept of archetypes. The issue with this viewpoint is why. Why do you NEED an inner view of sensation vs an outer view or likewise outer logic vs inner logic. It doesn't make sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Above you labelled this example Fe+Si "the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises.". But I don't see any reason to say that this is linked to Si.

    Because the physical needs of people, which is what philanthropy addresses, are by definition sensation. In contrast, FeNi would tend to be a motivational speaker, the spiritual needs of a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Functions are coupled in blocks, but many activities could easily be linked to just the base function, roughly speaking.
    No, you need both a judgement and a perception to classify activities or ideas. and also ideally an introversion and extroversion. As I said above, philanthropy needs both FeSi while motivational speaking needs FeNi. Likewise TiNe would encompass mathematical proofs while TiSe would encompass a legal proceeding. Perceptions tells you the type of data (sensation vs intuiton/imagination), while Judgment tells you the type of decision (logical or ethical) and introversion and extroversion tells you whether you're using induction or deduction.
    Last edited by domr; 01-30-2023 at 11:35 PM.

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