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Thread: Uyghur Genocide

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    Thumbs down Uyghur Genocide

    Alibaba Admits Developing Racist Uyghur Recognition (ipvm.com)



    Want to know how the Uyghurs are being targeted exactly? By everyone. By facial recognition software. By the police. This is really targeting Uyghurs in particular and not even remotely incidentally.



    Stop targeting the Uyghurs, China!



    Is this an enemy to you? That looks like some nice people to me.



    Despite China's denials, its treatment of the Uyghurs should be called what it is: cultural genocide (theconversation.com)

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    A lot of wealthy Western countries have spoken against it publically, and hardly any Muslim countries. Words alone aren't going to be enough - only economic action. I suppose it is somewhat understandable from an economic perspective to not want to limit trade with China, especially if you are a poor country, but boycotts of Israel would look less racially and religiously motivated if you also boycott worse countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    A lot of wealthy Western countries have spoken against it publically, and hardly any Muslim countries. Words alone aren't going to be enough - only economic action. I suppose it is somewhat understandable from an economic perspective to not want to limit trade with China, especially if you are a poor country, but boycotts of Israel would look less racially and religiously motivated if you also boycott worse countries.
    I mean, it's Gog and Magog vs. Israel last I heard. Most Muslims are not Muslim extremists, though, since they are people, most Muslims have other problems since people in general suck. However, that is very different from targeting someone on the basis of race or religion. I just watched a video about Iran, but the government of Iran doesn't follow all the laws they force on other people. To be fair, I would kind of like it if many of those laws were upheld. Most Iranians get caught drunk driving, but drunk driving is bad. Most Americans do that too, so not really an Iranian issue in particular. The leaders just use it to go after people while engaging in much worse behavior while they're high on power in secret though.

    Boycott everyone you don't personally know about. It's just Gog and Magog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I mean, it's Gog and Magog vs. Israel last I heard. Most Muslims are not Muslim extremists, though, since they are people, most Muslims have other problems since people in general suck. However, that is very different from targeting someone on the basis of race or religion. I just watched a video about Iran, but the government of Iran doesn't follow all the laws they force on other people. To be fair, I would kind of like it if many of those laws were upheld. Most Iranians get caught drunk driving, but drunk driving is bad. Most Americans do that too, so not really an Iranian issue in particular. The leaders just use it to go after people while engaging in much worse behavior while they're high on power in secret though.

    Boycott everyone you don't personally know about. It's just Gog and Magog.
    The wider Arab–Israeli conflict has supposedly led to about 115,000 deaths since 1948. I won't get into who is responsible for starting it. I can't see figures for the Uyghur Genocide, but over the last eight years there has been systematic killing, torture, rape, forced sterilization and abortions for a large population: it is likely significantly greater than the average death rate in the wider Arab–Israeli conflict since 1948.

    The Syrian civil war has killed at least 306,887 people since 2011 according to the UN in June 2022 - another figure says 499,657–610,000 (The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights in March 2022). But I hear far more protests about Israel than I do Syria, and I often wonder why that is. There are other comparable situations too, that are ongoing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Alibaba Admits Developing Racist Uyghur Recognition (ipvm.com)



    Want to know how the Uyghurs are being targeted exactly? By everyone. By facial recognition software. By the police. This is really targeting Uyghurs in particular and not even remotely incidentally.



    Stop targeting the Uyghurs, China!



    Is this an enemy to you? That looks like some nice people to me.



    Despite China's denials, its treatment of the Uyghurs should be called what it is: cultural genocide (theconversation.com)

    Uyghurs (an asian ethnic group ) can be recognized with facial recognition AIs yet differences in phenotypes, let alone subspecies are just social constructs.

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    using sources from 1-3 years ago? Also both from the Western media? Ok
    Last edited by welcome; 10-06-2022 at 02:52 AM.

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    The word "genocide" is thrown around very lightly now. Most claims of abuses trace back to Adrian Zenz, an evangelical nutjob who has been promoting all sorts of wild narratives about what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs. That he's part of the "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation" should tell you a lot about where he's coming from.

    What about other sites? Most ""reputable"" sites have a tendency to to shy away from outright using the word "genocide." But it's often interesting when something bad about China is being alleged to take a look through the sources of the article. Take the one @Poptart linked. The first link, to the NYT, cites Radio Free Asia, which is a CIA outlet, and "overseas Uighur groups with extensive contacts in Xinjiang." And it cites somebody who works for some definitely-not-a-CIA-cutout named Dui Hua. And we get an AP News story alleging familial disappearances from a literally who, whose story is impossible to verify.

    This is standard for these kinds of stories. Who knows what happened to this anthropologist. Maybe the Chinese government really got her. I don't have any particular love for it and I can believe it does terrible things. But there are other explanations, and it doesn't really indicate much about what's happening to normal Uyghurs in Xinjiang anyway. The population of Xinjiang is around 25 million and it's pretty clear they aren't all being rounded up in camps or shot in the streets or anything (even though people who discuss this seem to forget such things as video cameras exist, and plenty of Chinese do know how to use VPNs, as if Xinjiang is some black hole), so instead there's this idea of a "cultural genocide" pushed. And as far as "proof" of this there are videos of a couple mosques being demolished (why were they demolished? How many mosques are there in Xinjiang? Those questions aren't asked). And to make sure people are really on their toes, conflate the not-sexy "cultural" genocide with more scary images of jackboots and concentration camps, inherently unverifiable stories of disappearances and torture are reported on.

    It's true that there's a lot of police in Xinjiang and people have posted images of what seem to be detainment camps. But obviously the entire Muslim population is not getting arrested and sent to these. Who is? Why is Xinjiang a surveillance state? China's explanation is that there has been a lot of terrorism -- by the way, why do these repressed Uyghurs have a tendency to get to Syria to join US-backed extremist forces? -- and the people getting arrested are people suspected of connection to terrorism. That to me makes more sense than some glacial attempt at genocide by arresting a tiny percentage of a growing population each year. And maybe there's a lot to criticize there. But that's a long way from genocide.

    There are other problems. Like the fact that Xinjiang's official language is the Uyghur language or that most of its government officials are Uyghurs, difficult to explain in terms of a strong central authoritarian Han government seeking to wipe out identification with other ethnicities. Or, as @Subteigh mentioned, that the US and its vassal states are much more concerned for these Muslim groups than anyone in the Muslim world.

    The "proof" for most atrocities boils down to random stories, a German evangelical, and American intelligence cutouts. Maybe there is some secret plan to wipe out the ethnicity, maybe not. But the US has been gearing up for conflict with China and accusing its enemies of committing atrocities is a pretty standard way the US likes to manufacture consent. People like to claim now they never believed the propaganda around the Iraq War, which every news organization out there was relaying, but it's clear that the vast majority were taken in by it, and no one has learnt from the Nayirah testimony not to take it with a few grains of salt when foreign women start claiming hostile governments did something terrible to their family. So this kind of propaganda works. Personally I think this is a similar operation.

    Here's an article on "genocide politics." I think everyone reading this thread should read it.

    I think that remaining skeptical and trying to consider who benefits from running whatever story you're reading/watching is generally good. The same rule applies for Uyghur-genocide stories.

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    I was trying to find out how many people the Chinese had actually killed in this genocide, but I couldn't immediately find anything that looked reliable. One website said that 9 million people could have been killed. Basically, we don't know because we can't trust the Chinese census figures for the Uyghurs and China is a secretive state.

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    That's classic integration. if we were about to call that genocide then the americans (or rather the american financial elites) are about genociding europeans since the past century.
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    You can quibble about the word “genocide” but there’s no denying that the Chinese government is systematically imprisoning the Uyghur minority population inside “re-education” internment camps. Even if you discount Adrian Zenz’s article in its entirety, there is still a mountain of evidence showing this to be true (and thanks to End, I know what “ad hominem” means, and I’m pretty sure your implications against Zenz is “ad hominem”. Try refuting his work instead of his character).

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    Also you don’t need to defend dictatorial regimes to self identify as “anti-imperialist”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart;[URL="tel:1535663"
    1535663[/URL]]You can quibble about the word “genocide” but there’s no denying that the Chinese government is systematically imprisoning the Uyghur minority population inside “re-education” internment camps. Even if you discount Adrian Zenz’s article in its entirety, there is still a mountain of evidence showing this to be true (and thanks to End, I know what “ad hominem” means, and I’m pretty sure your implications against Zenz is “ad hominem”. Try refuting his work instead of his character).

    @FreelancePoliceman True Anon is rotting you from the inside out. Literally Q-Anon for hipsters.
    A) TrueAnon haven't done anything on this.

    B) Your "mountain of evidence" is news agencies, often actual CIA outlets, making unverifiable claims. Whenever anyone pushes back on this people say "well, China is an oppressive state, of course anecdotes are the best we can do." You see how this works?

    C) There has already been enough criticism of Zenz's "work." But fine: he's a crank who believes he's on a mission from God who also happens to do bad research.

    D) As I recall, you admit to browsing r/neoliberal, so you have no right to act superior in reference to anyone else's media consumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    A) TrueAnon haven't done anything on this.

    B) Your "mountain of evidence" is news agencies, often actual CIA outlets, making unverifiable claims. Whenever anyone pushes back on this people say "well, China is an oppressive state, of course anecdotes are the best we can do." You see how this works?

    C) There has already been enough criticism of Zenz's "work." But fine: he's a crank who believes he's on a mission from God who also happens to do bad research.

    D) As I recall, you admit to browsing r/neoliberal, so you have no right to act superior in reference to anyone else's media consumption.
    The Chinese government admitted and defended the existence of these camps. In 2020 the Chinese government claimed that over a million Uyghurs “voluntarily” left their homes to attend re-education camps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    The Chinese government admitted and defended the existence of these camps. In 2020 the Chinese government claimed that over a million Uyghurs “voluntarily” left their homes to attend re-education camps.
    Would you mind posting a source for this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    Uyghurs (an asian ethnic group ) can be recognized with facial recognition AIs yet differences in phenotypes, let alone subspecies are just social constructs.

    Mad thing isn't it?
    ...Where did I claim phenotypes are a social construct? I'm claiming they shouldn't be ethnically cleansed. Claiming people shouldn't be ethnically cleansed presupposes there are ethnic groups. Not everyone who's opposed to genocide is a woke liberal. People in general suck. Doesn't mean people should be killed on the basis of their race just because most members of literally any race will suck, because any race also inevitably has the non-sucky people, and if there were somehow an entire race of criminals, they could be recognized as criminals rather than as slightly darker-skinned people or what have you.

    When you're pointing at people, the fingers inevitably point back at you. Yes, the refugees really are causing problems in Sweden, but that's because people haven't developed the skills to turn a blind eye to their crime like the Nordic Swedes have with each other. I seriously doubt the crimes are worse. Most people are just this bad and that feels incredibly difficult to accept but that's where all the evidence is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Would you mind posting a source for this?
    I could but I’m starting to feel like there are more productive ways I could waste my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    I could but I’m starting to feel like there are more productive ways I could waste my time.
    It's not a waste.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Also you don’t need to defend dictatorial regimes to self identify as “anti-imperialist”
    Honestly, on a good day it looks like everyone is equally awful. All the things Noam Chomsky says about the US are completely true and all the things someone like Kraut says about the communists are completely true and all the things the Israelis say about the Arabs are true and all the things the Arabs say about the Israelis are true and the Ukrainians are a bunch of Nazis and the Russians are a bunch of looting rapists and everyone is so horrible it's probably just not worth my time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by get R View Post
    using sources from 1-3 years ago? Also both from the Western media? Ok
    I don't like the Western media, but that doesn't make everything it says wrong (or right.) It's fully possible that the sources are accurate and, for all their faults, Western countries just care more about what China is doing than other Muslim countries do. Muslim countries don't have a track record for getting along with each other, sadly. Muslim countries not caring about the Uyghurs seems very in-line with, for example, the wars between Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the wars within Iraq. I should still find better sources and that's not exonerating Western countries for all the things they demonstrably do wrong, though. A stopped clock is right twice a day and all that. The world seems increasingly more like it comprises of a vast number of stopped clocks that were all stopped at different times.
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    The Chinese government published white papers in 2019 and 2020. I'm sure you can google for yourself.

    I normally like talking about current events but no, not in this case. Uyghur denialism kind of depraved and sickening in my opinion, and I've had enough for today. I can literally feel the my cortisol levels rising as I type, and considering the harmful effects of cortisol on an unborn baby, I'm disengaging from this thread. I don't need to be here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart;[URL="tel:1535764"
    1535764[/URL]]The Chinese government published white papers in 2019 and 2020. I'm sure you can google for yourself.
    I was asking because I couldn't.

    I normally like talking about current events but no, not in this case. Uyghur denialism kind of depraved and sickening in my opinion, and I've had enough for today. I can literally feel the my cortisol levels rising as I type, and considering the harmful effects of cortisol on an unborn baby, I'm disengaging from this thread. I don't need to be here.
    This is pretty disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I was asking because I couldn't.



    This is pretty disgusting.
    Same. I brought this up because Subteigh talked about it and Subteigh actually does seem like a good source on these kinds of things, so... @Subteigh?

    Muslim countries beating up other Muslim countries is exactly the kind of thing they do, so Western states caring more about the Uyghurs than, say, Saudi Arabia and Iran care is completely in-line with the kinds of things that do happen. That does not however mean it actually happened. If China is being pointlessly vilified that's actually important. However, I doubt it is. I think all the nations on Earth, West or East or North or South, seem to be heading in pretty depraved directions, so whenever anyone points a finger at anyone else, they're just right but their three fingers are pointing back at them. I think this really is the result of the golden ages people like to vilify as well. Many great things were achieved during the Enlightenment but the Age of Reason people did not build the nuclear bomb; contemporary people did. The flowers of the golden age ripen into nightshades and people, being people, all try to poison one another. That's how people are, but if you think that no one should try to accomplish anything since it will inevitably be abused, that conclusion seems absurd. People should try to accomplish things even though other people will inevitably successfully abuse those accomplishments; that's why I think the world is really just spinning madly toward its end, but I don't see a way to deal with that fact that isn't worse. The world looks like a hellscape on a good day.
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    From Wikipedia:

    The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang that is often characterized as genocide. Since 2014, the Chinese government, under the administration of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) General Secretary Xi Jinping, has pursued policies that incarcerated more than an estimated one million Turkic Muslims in internment camps without any legal process.[3][4][5] Operations from 2016 to 2021 were led by Xinjiang CCP Secretary Chen Quanguo, who dramatically increased the scale and scope of the camps.[6] This is the largest-scale detention of ethnic and religious minorities since World War II.[7][8] Experts estimate that, since 2017, some sixteen thousand mosques have been razed or damaged,[9] and hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents and sent to boarding schools.[10][11]

    Government policies have included the arbitrary detention of Uyghurs in state-sponsored internment camps,[12][13] forced labor,[14][15] suppression of Uyghur religious practices,[16] political indoctrination,[17] severe ill-treatment,[18] forced sterilization,[19] forced contraception,[20][21] and forced abortion.[22][23] Chinese government statistics reported that from 2015 to 2018, birth rates in the mostly Uyghur regions of Hotan and Kashgar fell by more than 60%.[19] In the same period, the birth rate of the whole country decreased by 9.69%.[24] Chinese authorities acknowledged that birth rates dropped by almost a third in 2018 in Xinjiang, but denied reports of forced sterilization and genocide.[25] Birth rates in Xinjiang fell a further 24% in 2019, compared to a nationwide decrease of 4.2%.[19]

    These actions have been described as the forced assimilation of Xinjiang, or as an ethnocide or cultural genocide,[26][27] or as genocide. Those accusing China of genocide point to intentional acts committed by the Chinese government that they say run afoul of Article II of the Genocide Convention,[28][29][30] which prohibits "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part," a "racial or religious group" including "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group" and "measures intended to prevent births within the group".[31]

    The Chinese government denies having committed human rights abuses in Xinjiang.[7][32] In an assessment by the UN Human Rights Office, the United Nations (UN) stated that China's policies and actions in the Xinjiang region may be crimes against humanity, although it did not use the term genocide.[33][34] International reactions have varied. Some UN member states issued statements to the United Nations Human Rights Council condemning China's policies, while others supported China's policies.[35] In December 2020, a case brought to the International Criminal Court was dismissed because the crimes alleged appeared to have been "committed solely by nationals of China within the territory of China, a State which is not a party to the Statute", meaning the ICC couldn't investigate them.[36][37] The United States has declared the human rights abuses a genocide, announcing its finding on January 19, 2021.[38] Legislatures in several countries have since passed non-binding motions describing China's actions as genocide, including the House of Commons of Canada,[39] the Dutch parliament,[40] the House of Commons of the United Kingdom,[41] the Seimas of Lithuania,[42] and the French National Assembly.[43] Other parliaments, such as those in New Zealand,[44] Belgium,[45] and the Czech Republic condemned the Chinese government's treatment of Uyghurs as "severe human rights abuses" or crimes against humanity.[46]
    If the Chinese government's own figures show that birth rates have significantly decreased in mostly Uyghur regions, then the situation must be bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    From Wikipedia:



    If the Chinese government's own figures show that birth rates have significantly decreased in mostly Uyghur regions, then the situation must be bad.
    This is the best statistic so far! Thank you! I really don't want to rely on the Western media as @get R called it, but... is the Eastern media any better? "Gottes ist der Okzident! Gottes ist der Orient!" ...aber Satans ist die Lügenpresse. Best is to avoid the mainstream media entirely in favor of concrete statistics.
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