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Thread: Sex Abuse Scandal in the Catholic Church

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    Angry Sex Abuse Scandal in the Catholic Church

    @Eliza Thomason @End @Shazaam @Subteigh @FreelancePoliceman What do you think of it?

    I think it's probably a result of the artificial celibacy imposed on priests combined with the abuse of children. I don't think celibacy is inherently wrong or "unnatural," but I don't think it has anything to do with priesthood and people who want to be priests shouldn't be forced to be celibate since it's just not related and most people are not celibate, including people interested in theology. I don't see where God instituted celibacy at all (but then, God didn't seem to institute really anything the Catholic Church does, it still seems pagan to me even though maybe it was instituted by God and the Church is just being extremely secretive for apparently no reason.) I think often, the abusers are themselves children who were abused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    @Eliza Thomason @End @Shazaam @Subteigh What do you think of it?

    I think it's probably a result of the artificial celibacy imposed on priests combined with the abuse of children. I don't think celibacy is inherently wrong or "unnatural," but I don't think it has anything to do with priesthood and people who want to be priests shouldn't be forced to be celibate since it's just not related and most people are not celibate, including people interested in theology. I don't see where God instituted celibacy at all (but then, God didn't seem to institute really anything the Catholic Church does, it still seems pagan to me even though maybe it was instituted by God and the Church is just being extremely secretive for apparently no reason.) I think often, the abusers are themselves children who were abused.
    A significant factor because of predators seeing it as an ideal environment for exploitation.

    But a significant factor will also be weakness in an ideal environment for exploitation.

    Enforced celibacy also will certainly only make the situation worse. Making the clergy feel guilty for desiring relationships outside of one with God is hardly going to help.

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    All that pent up sexual energy and then some little human gives them attention, physical, or emotional?

    Something is bound to happen.

    The entire point of celibacy is to break the mind from identifying with the passions, and find the true dispassionate state "consciousness on which all else plays".

    Is it working? Not for the victims. That alone tells you it is not a sustainable practise.

    Honestly they would be better off castrating themselves, if they want to focus on God. A gelding can concentrate a lot more than a stallion. And also not break the fences down in an antisocial rage.

    Same with people.

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    I think celibacy in priesthood is more like a challenge than an engagement although it could be one and/or the other. What we can say for sure is that it's not natural because it defies half the commandments of the "book of the two commandments of nature" :

    1- Thou shalt survive
    2 - Thou shalt pass on thy genes

    Remember that chastity suppose that even masturbation is evil or prohibited. When a normally constituted man with an average level of testosterone stay a long period of time sexually abstinent, sperm starts to "leak" from the penis in the form of drops without warning and at irregular intervals. I don't know how long one must remain abstinent before that phenomenon happens but I would say at least one year, It's a guess based on my own experience it might be shorter or longer I've never heard of a serious study about it. Anyway, If we look at men chastity from a medical point of view, we'll found that some doctors recommend a minimum of 20 ejacculations by mounth to avoid a testicular cancer... Well, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.

    So priesthood chastity is quite a challenge to say the least. I wonder how do they manage it in the light of the above informations ?

    PS : Note that any kind of abuse on a child can not be justified it's pure evil period .
    Last edited by godslave; 09-20-2022 at 07:40 PM.

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    To even entertain the thought of having sex with a child, something must be wrong with your mind. Celibacy is not a reason because a person can always masturbate to rid themselves of stirrings, and even in the case of prolonged periods without ejaculation, the normal reaction would be to have attraction towards an adult. In the case of most pedophiles, someone "planted" the seed there, most likely during their own childhood. Now, where did the first pedophile come from?

    Most priests have never harmed a child and they're celibate (although they do probably masturbate), so that's not the reason. The reason is that an already so inclined pedophile will search (even subconsciously) for settings that give opportunity to play out their their urges. So they , for example, join the catholic church. Anything that could give them unrestricted access to children. I have read that teachers, caretakers, therapists, etc, are also proffesions typically chosen by them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    I think celibacy in priesthood is more like a challenge than an engagement although it could be one and/or the other. What we can say for sure is that it's not natural because it defies half the commandments of the "book of the two commandments of nature" :

    1- Thou shalt survive
    2 - Thou shalt pass on thy genes

    Remember that chastity suppose that even masturbation is evil or prohibited. When a normally constituted man with an average level of testosterone stay a long period of time sexually abstinent, sperm starts to "leak" from the penis in the form of drops without warning and at irregular intervals. I don't know how long one must remain abstinent before that phenomenon happens but I would say at least one year, It's a guess based on my own experience it might be shorter or longer I've never heard of a serious study about it. Anyway, If we look at men chastity from a medical point of view, we'll found that some doctors recommend a minimum of 20 ejacculations by mounth to avoid a testicular cancer... Well, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.

    So priesthood chastity is quite a challenge to say the least. I wonder how do they manage it in the light of the above informations ?

    PS : Note that any kind of abuse on a child can not be justified it's pure evil period .
    Its like a couple months. You just have wet dreams. Testosterone levels also start to drop after several weeks. If you don't use it, you loose it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Its like a couple months. You just have wet dreams. Testosterone levels also start to drop after several weeks. If you don't use it, you loose it.
    Good point, I forgot to mention that one. So what do priests do when or if they have wet dreams ? Do they confess it ? Is it a sin when it's not within our conscious control ? If so, do they expiate it with a bunch of Ave Maria ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    Good point, I forgot to mention that one. So what do priests do when or if they have wet dreams ? Do they confess it ? Is it a sin when it's not within our conscious control ? If so, do they expiate it with a bunch of Ave Maria ?
    I have no idea this detail. Weird to feel guilty about, but I guess that would be Catholicism for you. They probably make you have a cold shower in the morning or something.

    In other worlds, men in their 30s onward wish they still got morning wood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    To even entertain the thought of having sex with a child, something must be wrong with your mind. Celibacy is not a reason because a person can always masturbate to rid themselves of stirrings, and even in the case of prolonged periods without ejaculation, the normal reaction would be to have attraction towards an adult. In the case of most pedophiles, someone "planted" the seed there, most likely during their own childhood. Now, where did the first pedophile come from?
    Predators prey on the weak and the most readily accessible victims the most.

    Also, I think people can be quite perverse in their logic. The Catholic Church teaches that having children out of wedlock is a sin, and these priests aren't able to marry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    To even entertain the thought of having sex with a child, something must be wrong with your mind. Celibacy is not a reason because a person can always masturbate to rid themselves of stirrings, and even in the case of prolonged periods without ejaculation, the normal reaction would be to have attraction towards an adult. In the case of most pedophiles, someone "planted" the seed there, most likely during their own childhood. Now, where did the first pedophile come from?

    Most priests have never harmed a child and they're celibate (although they do probably masturbate), so that's not the reason. The reason is that an already so inclined pedophile will search (even subconsciously) for settings that give opportunity to play out their their urges. So they , for example, join the catholic church. Anything that could give them unrestricted access to children. I have read that teachers, caretakers, therapists, etc, are also proffesions typically chosen by them.
    this, but I also still think its a matter of "any kind of attention becomes a temptation" when celibate. To bad, evil is everywhere and people are weak. Its like, the thing that is most evil is the thing they would do. How Christian is that?

    The other religions like those in the east are not nearly as anti-human.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    this, but I also still think its a matter of "any kind of attention becomes a temptation" when celibate. To bad, evil is everywhere and people are weak. Its like, the thing that is most evil is the thing they would do. How Christian is that?

    The other religions like those in the east are not nearly as anti-human.
    I mean, that seems true, but I also feel like I should try to be nice to the Catholics because just saying "you are anti-human!" scares them off and makes them think everyone is out to get them.
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    Too much sexual repression and weird rules can cause that yeah, I've always believed that. If not the main cause it can be a contributing factor, since what pushes somebody over the edge to doing something like pedophilia can be a multitude of things. True, a lot of them are just opportunistic predators and kids are easy targets, or there's genetic in-born factors to it regardless of religion.

    It isn't just pedophilia - a Priest I know has a criminal charge for exposing his junk in a park lol.

    Forcing others to be celibate when it's not natural for them is probably just as bad as Harvey Weinstein's troll-ish body pouncing on you when you don't want it. It's another form of rape really, just turned inside out to make it look like the person is being more righteous and faux "caring for your soul"..... "Oh you have normal human sexual desires? You must be a sexual offender then!" A lot of people seem to have this mentality and I think it's wrong and ridiculous. Sex is Not the Enemy, cue song by the band Garbage.

    I was reading about Judas and Jesus earlier today. It seems like Jesus is kind of a pervy asshole when you really find out about him, the dude literally washed his own feet with a woman's tears! If a guy did that nowadays, the HR department would hang the dude on a cross of their own LOL. Judas also seemed to betray him because Jesus was being a snooty asshole and was hanging out with too many spoiled rich people, and not truly helping the poor like his image had him to be. Reminds you of you-know-who doesn't it? I still believe in the spiritual concept of One-ness, but the real person Jesus probably had sins of his own and wasn't as Christ-like as people thought. I guess I'm a Jew that hates Jesus now.

    Judas kissed Jesus, Judas was just trying to show Jesus a softer and better way to make love and you don't or shouldn't always need lustful wash ur feet in somebody else's tears to be turned on. A lot of people are against kissing, but are too willing and eager to do too many freak-ish things. Sex isn't perverted, but perverts pervert sex.

    gay P.S:
    If a guy is as hot as Adam Killian or Jesse Santana, they have my permission to use my tears to wash their feet, and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't mention on this site.



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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    All that pent up sexual energy and then some little human gives them attention, physical, or emotional?

    Something is bound to happen.
    Um what?
    Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome




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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazaam View Post
    Too much sexual repression and weird rules can cause that yeah, I've always believed that. If not the main cause it can be a contributing factor, since what pushes somebody over the edge to doing something like pedophilia can be a multitude of things. True, a lot of them are just opportunistic predators and kids are easy targets, or there's genetic in-born factors to it regardless of religion.

    It isn't just pedophilia - a Priest I know has a criminal charge for exposing his junk in a park lol.

    Forcing others to be celibate when it's not natural for them is probably just as bad as Harvey Weinstein's troll-ish body pouncing on you when you don't want it. It's another form of rape really, just turned inside out to make it look like the person is being more righteous and faux "caring for your soul"..... "Oh you have normal human sexual desires? You must be a sexual offender then!" A lot of people seem to have this mentality and I think it's wrong and ridiculous. Sex is Not the Enemy, cue song by the band Garbage.

    I was reading about Judas and Jesus earlier today. It seems like Jesus is kind of a pervy asshole when you really find out about him, the dude literally washed his own feet with a woman's tears! If a guy did that nowadays, the HR department would hang the dude on a cross of their own LOL. Judas also seemed to betray him because Jesus was being a snooty asshole and was hanging out with too many spoiled rich people, and not truly helping the poor like his image had him to be. Reminds you of you-know-who doesn't it? I still believe in the spiritual concept of One-ness, but the real person Jesus probably had sins of his own and wasn't as Christ-like as people thought. I guess I'm a Jew that hates Jesus now.

    Judas kissed Jesus, Judas was just trying to show Jesus a softer and better way to make love and you don't or shouldn't always need lustful wash ur feet in somebody else's tears to be turned on. A lot of people are against kissing, but are too willing and eager to do too many freak-ish things. Sex isn't perverted, but perverts pervert sex.

    gay P.S:
    If a guy is as hot as Adam Killian or Jesse Santana, they have my permission to use my tears to wash their feet, and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't mention on this site.


    32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-36

    23 One sabbath he was going through the cornfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?’ 25 And he said to them, ‘Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? 26 He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions.’ 27 Then he said to them, ‘The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.’ 2 Mark 23-28

    Same God, eh?
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    Celibacy is unnatural though, but so is Christianity.

    The celibacy is analogous to the focus on spirit, light and heaven in Christianity. The dark, earthy stuff is not dealt with. It's called the Devil. In this sense Christianity is very spiritual.

    So the celibacy makes sense. You move as far away from the devil and anything "pagan". Problem is that the Devil might take revenge.

    The outbreak of perverted sexuality is also analogous to the outbreak of certain regressive "pagan" things in our culture.

    I think that if you don't have any normal romantic interaction with the opposite sex, and if this goes on for a long time, then your sexuality might stay in an undifferentiated state or become perverted. It shouldn't come as a surprise.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    @Eliza Thomason @End @Shazaam @Subteigh @FreelancePoliceman What do you think of it?

    I think it's probably a result of the artificial celibacy imposed on priests combined with the abuse of children. I don't think celibacy is inherently wrong or "unnatural," but I don't think it has anything to do with priesthood and people who want to be priests shouldn't be forced to be celibate since it's just not related and most people are not celibate, including people interested in theology. I don't see where God instituted celibacy at all (but then, God didn't seem to institute really anything the Catholic Church does, it still seems pagan to me even though maybe it was instituted by God and the Church is just being extremely secretive for apparently no reason.) I think often, the abusers are themselves children who were abused.
    I answer with the fact that a Preist is literally considered as a father figure to his entire congregation. We call him (and yes it will always be a true "him" no matter what the schismatics have to say) Father for damn good reason. The Pope is, by extension, considered to be the spiritual father to all Catholics. How many children does the pope have? Billions. Genetics and physical reproduction has nothing to do with it. There is the whole issue of anti-popes, heresies, and all the like but I ain't a theologian nor an ordained priest so I'd trouble them with questions as to how to resolve those particular queries/challenges to the faith.

    Then there's the practical aspect of why celibacy is both expected and enforced. What you value more than your freedom can and will be used by the great enemy as the tool of both your enslavement and damnation. What sane human doesn't value their SO and who/what they consider their children more than their freedom? Who wouldn't screw over their whole damn clan/tribe if it meant the survival of all their blood-relatives? This is Totalitarainism 101.

    Pretty much everyone is perfectly willing and able to die for their beliefs themselves. Gladly will I die for what I believe in. This is not unique to valuing types. However, will you watch as your mother, father, brother, sister, wife, child, etc. if you refuse to cave?

    This was and is still done to ensure that it's hard as hell for the devil to get the average priest to preach heresy. Oh yeah a bishop or even a pope might fall, but the grassroots and the laity will not. For even if it comes down to but a few priests and their few parishioners the truth will still prevail.

    Christ was but one man. He had 12 disciples, one of which betrayed him and the other whom he said he would build his churchdenied him at the most critical of moments. Even so, the faith remains. ..

    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    To even entertain the thought of having sex with a child, something must be wrong with your mind. Celibacy is not a reason because a person can always masturbate to rid themselves of stirrings, and even in the case of prolonged periods without ejaculation, the normal reaction would be to have attraction towards an adult. In the case of most pedophiles, someone "planted" the seed there, most likely during their own childhood. Now, where did the first pedophile come from?

    Most priests have never harmed a child and they're celibate (although they do probably masturbate), so that's not the reason. The reason is that an already so inclined pedophile will search (even subconsciously) for settings that give opportunity to play out their their urges. So they , for example, join the catholic church. Anything that could give them unrestricted access to children. I have read that teachers, caretakers, therapists, etc, are also proffesions typically chosen by them.
    Sin and Satan. Also, I've already pointed this out time and again but here's a real mind bender for most who hate God's Holy Church and constantly dig at it from this angle. Getting accepted into and successfully passing through a Catholic seminary requires quite a lot.

    Y'know what gets you even greater access to even more children at a fraction of the effort? A certification/degree as a Public School Teacher! Seriously, look into that one next time ya wanna dig on the Catholics. Catholic Priests>Secular Priestesses (i.e. Public School Female Teachers). Yeah, I chose that last one carefully and consciously. Funny that double standard...

    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I have no idea this detail. Weird to feel guilty about, but I guess that would be Catholicism for you. They probably make you have a cold shower in the morning or something.

    In other worlds, men in their 30s onward wish they still got morning wood.
    Errr, I kinda wish you were right and I didn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Celibacy is unnatural though, but so is Christianity.

    The celibacy is analogous to the focus on spirit, light and heaven in Christianity. The dark, earthy stuff is not dealt with. It's called the Devil. In this sense Christianity is very spiritual.

    So the celibacy makes sense. You move as far away from the devil and anything "pagan". Problem is that the Devil might take revenge.

    The outbreak of perverted sexuality is also analogous to the outbreak of certain regressive "pagan" things in our culture.

    I think that if you don't have any normal romantic interaction with the opposite sex, and if this goes on for a long time, then your sexuality might stay in an undifferentiated state or become perverted. It shouldn't come as a surprise.
    Christainty is actually perfectly natural as it is the only system that perfectly aligns desires with the intellect ceterus paribus. Sin makes you stupid for damn good reason and I can explain how and why but come now, surely, you've read many of my previous posts yes?

    I can't remember the exact thread but I got into a big argument where I argued that you literally cannot sinfully lust after your lawfully wedded spouse. Hell, after the marriage sacrament denying your horny partner satisfaction through the "Marital Act" is a mortal sin! You neglect your spouse by refusing them their God given right to the pleasure of the flesh that produces the greatest gift of all: Life!

    Sex begets life. It ought to beget life. Any attempt to deny that truth is of the devil, the great enemy. No surprise why all the shitlibs are still flipping out over the reversal of Roe v. Wade here in the U.S. Cry me a river you servants of Satan!

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post

    Christainty is actually perfectly natural as it is the only system that perfectly aligns desires with the intellect ceterus paribus. Sin makes you stupid for damn good reason and I can explain how and why but come now, surely, you've read many of my previous posts yes?

    I can't remember the exact thread but I got into a big argument where I argued that you literally cannot sinfully lust after your lawfully wedded spouse. Hell, after the marriage sacrament denying your horny partner satisfaction through the "Marital Act" is a mortal sin! You neglect your spouse by refusing them their God given right to the pleasure of the flesh that produces the greatest gift of all: Life!

    Sex begets life. It ought to beget life. Any attempt to deny that truth is of the devil, the great enemy. No surprise why all the shitlibs are still flipping out over the reversal of Roe v. Wade here in the U.S. Cry me a river you servants of Satan!
    I was making a parallell between the celibacy of priests and the focus on light and heaven in the Christian system. Christianity doesn't really deal with the nasty, devilish, sinful stuff that exists all around us and in the human soul. Instead the remedy is simply to follow Jesus and go to heaven. That's a good goal but it seems to be lacking in detail. So in that way it's understandable that the life of a priest should copy this system and disregard the earthy sexuality.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    The starvation attitude about sex is a bad one, and people here have already detailed the reasons why. Another problem I'll point out that can plague religious people is self imposed isolation from society. Fundamental Jewish values, if not tempered by a very strong dose of humility and compassion, will lead to this social isolation. Without a good social fabric people end up sexually repressed by virtue of having no options. The church is supposed to provide the social fabric, but alot of churches are just empty, ritualistic gatherings where everyone puts on a face and says nothing authentic to one another. When this happens... the church is no longer serving its useful function as a social outlet. Hence it is important that churches not get stuck in superficiality, but that people in the church are able to discuss openly their dark sides with the aim of rectifying things within them.
    Though sometimes... people are just fundamentally evil and do evil things, for a person to actually F a child takes a very high level of sadism which I don't think social factors alone can account for.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 09-22-2022 at 03:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I was making a parallell between the celibacy of priests and the focus on light and heaven in the Christian system. Christianity doesn't really deal with the nasty, devilish, sinful stuff that exists all around us and in the human soul. Instead the remedy is simply to follow Jesus and go to heaven. That's a good goal but it seems to be lacking in detail. So in that way it's understandable that the life of a priest should copy this system and disregard the earthy sexuality.
    I mean, whenever I do hear a more theological type than End talk to me, they say Christianity also says you can't choose not to sin. So better start engaging in gangrape and pedophilia and mugging and murder and cannibalism, and just tell daddy you're sorry afterwards so you can go to the good place and not the bad place. Everyone sins, you can't choose to control yourself at all, you can only choose to dress in red from head to toe while whipping yourself raw and chanting magic words to beings other than God afterwards.

    Exceptions: I don't think the Eastern Orthodox or Unitarian churches share that belief. The Eastern Orthodox Church seems to think corruption of the heart exists regardless of actions and you can choose not to sin but you're still corrupted internally. The Unitarian church doesn't seem to believe in original sin at all. Both of these viewpoints at least seem to actually make the idea of judging people for child rape coherent. I mean, in the Catholic worldview of course the priest can rape all the little boys he wants as long as he says sorry and beats himself afterwards. It's almost silly a Catholic would care about pedophilic rapes when they think everyone is an inexorably and infinitely dirty sinner with no ability to stop themselves from sinning, and even the worst can just say sorry and still go to Heaven. The fact that any of them care is probably a testimony people can still be decent despite being Catholic. If I had to guess why there are more raping priests than raping schoolteachers, I'd say it's because Catholicism says you have no ability to stop yourself from taking sinful actions combined with the fact it allows you to just say sorry even when you're on your deathbed. Artificial celibacy seems silly, but Buddhists don't have that problem and I don't think it's because the Catholics are being tested by Satan, I think it's the obscene ideology that you have no ability to control yourself so you're forgiven infinitely as long as you apologize, without having to do anything because your body is just Satan's meat puppet to begin with in Catholicism. Protestants would probably have the same problem if they had organized structures since they also believe your body is Satan's meat puppet and you can't stop yourself from sinning "in word, thought, and deed."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I was making a parallell between the celibacy of priests and the focus on light and heaven in the Christian system. Christianity doesn't really deal with the nasty, devilish, sinful stuff that exists all around us and in the human soul. Instead the remedy is simply to follow Jesus and go to heaven. That's a good goal but it seems to be lacking in detail. So in that way it's understandable that the life of a priest should copy this system and disregard the earthy sexuality.
    I mean, this might also be why Jordan Peterson seems to have shifted from being obsessed with Orthodox Christianity (which actually touches on a lot of that stuff, unlike Catholicism and Protestantism) to Islam. Jordan Peterson is like me: he is rational and he doesn't think the idea that you have no control over your body or mind, which are Satan's meat puppet and your thoughts are telepathically controlled, so you have to rape little boys but it also doesn't matter at all because you can just say sorry and go to Heaven makes sense. But that's Catholic dogma. If it hasn't been used in a debate at all that's probably because Protestants, the other main group discussing the topic, believes the same thing, they just don't have an organized priesthood subject to easy scrutiny. However, it seems like a reductio ad absurdum to Catholic dogma: most of us feel we have enough control over our body and mind we can avoid raping boys. So why should we be doomed to be filthy sinners? Why not adopt a religion where your actions actually matter and, furthermore, that actually gives you guidelines for behavior? The argument from atheists on the other hand would be all religion is irrational, but, tell Aristotle, Plato, Newton, Leibniz, Goethe, Ibn Sina, and many more people that... You know it's at least possible to be religious and rational if that's what you think the evidence is. That's different than accepting things that you don't think make sense because it's tradition even if you have no personal evidence and other people have contradictory evidence never mind it seeming inherently logically contradictory, which is what groups like the Catholics and Protestants seem to mostly do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    this, but I also still think its a matter of "any kind of attention becomes a temptation" when celibate. To bad, evil is everywhere and people are weak. Its like, the thing that is most evil is the thing they would do. How Christian is that?

    The other religions like those in the east are not nearly as anti-human.
    If you were forced to be celibate could you see yourself molesting kids?

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    this, but I also still think its a matter of "any kind of attention becomes a temptation" when celibate. To bad, evil is everywhere and people are weak. Its like, the thing that is most evil is the thing they would do. How Christian is that?

    The other religions like those in the east are not nearly as anti-human.
    I'm sure there are bad people in all religions. Christianity is an advanced religion and not everyone is spiritually mature to be a priest. Maybe some do it for narcissistic reasons. People are people. If you are a Christian priest or an Indian guru or some man of authority then some people can't handle that status and will start doing evil stuff.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    If you were forced to be celibate could you see yourself molesting kids?
    God no.
    I'm not in the mood to do "what-aboutisms".

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    God no.
    I'm not in the mood to do "what-aboutisms".
    I just don't think correlation implies causation. I think they're already predators. They go where they'll be trusted.

    https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/...e-for-children

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I'm sure there are bad people in all religions. Christianity is an advanced religion and not everyone is spiritually mature to be a priest. Maybe some do it for narcissistic reasons. People are people. If you are a Christian priest or an Indian guru or some man of authority then some people can't handle that status and will start doing evil stuff.
    Are you sure it's not because of some of the doctrines of major Christian sects? "Everyone sins and no one is able to prevent themselves from sinning, but even the worst sinner can repent on their deathbed" seems to lead to certain logical conclusions. The worst sinners are not impulsive murderers or bank robbers or gamblers. Those are the people everyone agrees should be able to repent. No, the worst sinners are exactly what you see in the Catholic Church: child rapists. Should they be allowed to sin as much as they want because it's inevitable as long as they ask daddy for forgiveness on their deathbed? If not, isn't that a sort of reductio ad absurdum against Catholic dogma? If you believe in blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, anyone who just keeps doing something is committing unforgiveable sin because they know Jesus can stop you from sinning: "go and sin no more!" The entire Catholic Church seems like either the unforgiveable sin as described by Jesus or like insanity if they really think Satan is mind controlling them to do things they know are bad and also don't want to do. Maybe it's possible for Satan to mind control otherwise good people, but I heavily doubt that considering other miracles are all about driving out demons and prophesying.
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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Are you sure it's not because of some of the doctrines of major Christian sects? "Everyone sins and no one is able to prevent themselves from sinning, but even the worst sinner can repent on their deathbed" seems to lead to certain logical conclusions. The worst sinners are not impulsive murderers or bank robbers or gamblers. Those are the people everyone agrees should be able to repent. No, the worst sinners are exactly what you see in the Catholic Church: child rapists. Should they be allowed to sin as much as they want because it's inevitable as long as they ask daddy for forgiveness on their deathbed? If not, isn't that a sort of reductio ad absurdum against Catholic dogma? If you believe in blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, anyone who just keeps doing something is committing unforgiveable sin because they know Jesus can stop you from sinning: "go and sin no more!" The entire Catholic Church seems like either the unforgiveable sin as described by Jesus or like insanity if they really think Satan is mind controlling them to do things they know are bad and also don't want to do. Maybe it's possible for Satan to mind control otherwise good people, but I heavily doubt that considering other miracles are all about driving out demons and prophesying.
    Could be? But my theory is more that of a shadow phenomenon. Like, if you have a position of authority, pureness, holy celibacy and some kind of link between ordinary people and God. That's a very one-sided personality, so a shadow is formed and it can and will be expressed at some point. Some people can handle it though, they focus on the spiritual side of life, and keep the shadow repressed, and then that's their life's mission.

    Should they be allowed to sin as much as they want because it's inevitable as long as they ask daddy for forgiveness on their deathbed?
    Seems like a corrupted / immature attitude. Although some people could have it. But I don't think that's the real intention in Christianity.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Could be? But my theory is more that of a shadow phenomenon. Like, if you have a position of authority, pureness, holy celibacy and some kind of link between ordinary people and God. That's a very one-sided personality, so a shadow is formed and it can and will be expressed at some point. Some people can handle it though, they focus on the spiritual side of life, and keep the shadow repressed, and then that's their life's mission.
    What makes you think it's "a shadow phenomenon" and not bad people wanting to do bad things? The biggest excuse for bad people to do bad things is always "the Devil made me do it" or "it was the lesser evil" as far as I've seen. Another is "if I can't make this increasingly destructive choice then I don't have power," even if that choice is self-sabotage. If you were a priest, would you sexually assault children and adolescents?



    Seems like a corrupted / immature attitude. Although some people could have it. But I don't think that's the real intention in Christianity.
    What is the real intention in your opinion? There can only be one intention of religion in my opinion: to make a truth-statement about existence. I can't do the postmodern thing and view it as Santa Claus for grownups who can't behave. You shouldn't even be lying to children about Santa Claus anyways, they generally know better in the first place. Do you think there is a God or not? Not "archetypes in the unconscious," a real being. Aristotle and many Greeks came to the same kind of conclusion about God independently, though that doesn't make it right by default. Do you think God is just an important fiction like Harry Potter? Are you Christian? I have a hard time not viewing your ideas as being essentially where Jordan Peterson used to be, influenced by Jung and sort of admiring of religion but never really making any truth-statements.

    Now, you're going to psychoanalyze this, but I see these as competing views:
    1. Animism. My jokes about "the Druids." Just don't be concerned about the ultimate nature of things and live for a while and pass away, trying to live out an animal existence. But that doesn't seem possible for humans, so it leads to complete perversions.
    2. The God-Emperor of Mankind. Aka, "God became a human." People like C. S. Lewis seem to really support this idea, but I haven't heard any justifications other than "tradition" and "it is poetic" yet. It also seems undermined by the doctrine of trinity, since in that case only one of three individuals was a human and that one was never anything more transcendent either.
    3. Reflexive Being. Aka "I Am That I Am." This seems the most philosophical, and the most supported by historical and personal evidence. However the main three viewpoints seem to almost compete on teleological grounds more than anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    What makes you think it's "a shadow phenomenon" and not bad people wanting to do bad things? The biggest excuse for bad people to do bad things is always "the Devil made me do it" or "it was the lesser evil" as far as I've seen. Another is "if I can't make this increasingly destructive choice then I don't have power," even if that choice is self-sabotage. If you were a priest, would you sexually assault children and adolescents?
    It can be both. Onesidedness, such as priest, must create a shadow. That's just so obvious taking into account their social position etc. I would say that the difference is that good people can deal with their shadow. They repress it or live it out under acceptable conditions. But they take responsibility for it.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Then there's the practical aspect of why celibacy is both expected and enforced. What you value more than your freedom can and will be used by the great enemy as the tool of both your enslavement and damnation.
    Lets be clear that it's only Catholicism that expects / enforces this, it isn't Christianity itself.
    I think this whole philosophy stems from a very serious misunderstanding of human instincts.

    Natural impulses fundamentally arise by virtue of you being a living breathing animal. You can't "overcome" a natural physical impulse altogether anymore than you can overcome being alive. The impulses can get derailed... but you have to distinguish between the impulse itself and the derailment of it.

    Overindulgence has a very direct relationship with deprivation. A good example of this is obesity - it is counterintuitive, but obese people are often malnourished due to the type of food they eat. I have a sister who's 350 pounds, she also has scurvy due to extreme vitamin C deficiency... obese people typically don't eat their vegetables, fruits, etc. - people aren't aware of it but there are all sorts of nutritients beyond simple vitamins / minerals that you get from eating fruits & vegetables. What's driving the hunger is actually the body demanding nourishment. The hunger is unsatiated, or only slightly satiated, due to the diet itself.

    Casual excess can cement itself into habit too... That's a derailment of the impulse, but you wouldn't try & repress the whole impulse because of that, you'd just reign it into a healthy state through exercising will. To recenter yourself in this way requires that you acknowledge the need, and alot of people won't acknowledge that... so this is another way people go astray.

    The way to be most resilient to temptation is not to try & completely repress the instincts. Besides being impossible, noone is more tempted by the smell of pepperoni pizza than a person who is starving. The best way to control the instincts is to fulfill them in a way that is whole and natural. For obesity this would not mean quitting eating, but eating alot more fruits and vegetables. For sex this means engaging with other real living, breathing humans.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 09-24-2022 at 03:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogOfDanger View Post
    Lets be clear that it's only Catholicism that expects / enforces this, it isn't Christianity itself.
    I think this whole philosophy stems from a very serious misunderstanding of human instincts.

    Natural impulses fundamentally arise by virtue of you being a living breathing animal. You can't "overcome" a natural physical impulse altogether anymore than you can overcome being alive. The impulses can get derailed... but you have to distinguish between the impulse itself and the derailment of it.

    Overindulgence has a very direct relationship with deprivation. A good example of this is obesity - it is counterintuitive, but obese people are often malnourished due to the type of food they eat. I have a sister who's 350 pounds, she also has scurvy due to extreme vitamin C deficiency... obese people typically don't eat their vegetables, fruits, etc. - people aren't aware of it but there are all sorts of nutritients beyond simple vitamins / minerals that you get from eating fruits & vegetables. What's driving the hunger is actually the body demanding nourishment. The hunger is unsatiated, or only slightly satiated, due to the diet itself.

    Casual excess can cement itself into habit too... That's a derailment of the impulse, but you wouldn't try & repress the whole impulse because of that, you'd just reign it into a healthy state through exercising will. To recenter yourself in this way requires that you acknowledge the need, and alot of people won't acknowledge that... so this is another way people go astray.

    The way to be most resilient to temptation is not to try & completely repress the instincts. Besides being impossible, noone is more tempted by the smell of pepperoni pizza than a person who is starving. The best way to control the instincts is to fulfill them in a way that is whole and natural. For obesity this would not mean quitting eating, but eating alot more fruits and vegetables. For sex this means engaging with other real living, breathing humans.
    That's a good critique of obesity, but I doubt it applies to sex because you have to eat to live but you don't have to have sex to live. I don't think celibacy has anything to do with priesthood but I actually don't think that's the cause of the Catholic Church's problems. Other religions like Buddhism also have this and they haven't had problems with sexual assault. If you're End you're going to say "that's because Satan wants to attack the Catholics and not the Buddhists!" but there seems to be more evidence that it's the result of most sects of Christianity including Catholicism saying everyone is inherently evil with no ability to control themselves and even the worst sinner can become the greatest saint while continuing to do awful things as long as they say "I'm sorry." Everyone really wants to turn this into a sexuality thing, but I doubt it is. Protestants would probably look just as bad or worse if they were under as much scrutiny as Catholics are and it's probably most Christian dogma saying you are obligated to be horrible driving this, not anything about sex instincts. If the greatest saints were the worst sinners, who do you think the worst sinners are, really? It's not murderers or the persecutors of the early church like most people seem to think. The worst sinners are child rapists, everyone knows and and no one wants to deny that. But when it comes to relating religious ideas to the real world most people have a fundamental disconnect. God is three people and body and spirit are different substances and sacred and profane can't ever refer to the same part of reality, apparently. I will go back alone and look at my monism now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    That's a good critique of obesity, but I doubt it applies to sex because you have to eat to live but you don't have to have sex to live.
    From the standpoint of evolution whether you 'live' is completely irrelevant if you don't produce offspring that can survive & reproduce. Biology has ensured, over the course of billions of years, that you can't merely turn off that instinct at will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I don't think celibacy has anything to do with priesthood but I actually don't think that's the cause of the Catholic Church's problems. Other religions like Buddhism also have this and they haven't had problems with sexual assault.
    Eh, I honestly think the typical Buddists attitude on sex is healthier. Buddism is alot more in touch with the darker aspects of human experience, including sexuality & other things, Hinduism on the whole takes a very ambivalent viewpoint on everything. Whatever path you choose is a valid path, you will deal with the karma of it but you'll be enlightened eventually. An ambivalent morality like this lacks the "ought" that the Christian / Jewish morality has... and I can criticize it on those grounds, but one clear advantage of it is that it doesn't seem to lead to repression, superficiality, and intimacy problems - things that plague the Jewish / Christian communities. If you ask me, this is because some Christians - a sizable portion of them, but certainly not all - are actually stuck in a very repressive Jewish mindset. Another aspect of it is the world is totally hostile toward them, because people usually like to hold Christians responsible for their own failings.
    Buddhist monks that adhere to celibacy live a monastic life, mostly in isolation... if they do have sexual scandals (and I'm sure some of them do, that's inevitable) I doubt they're as widely publicized, I certainly have not heard of any... there would also be less potential victims around them... the Christian church is also a very visible, politically relevant social institution, when there's a scandal people hear about it. For example... there are plenty of random people in society convicted of sex crimes against minors, the sex offender registry list is full of them, but the same level of attention is not given to them as is given to a member of the clergy doing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    it's the result of most sects of Christianity including Catholicism saying everyone is inherently evil with no ability to control themselves and even the worst sinner can become the greatest saint while continuing to do awful things as long as they say "I'm sorry.
    There is casual overindulgence, that is certainly a problem, but your idea of "control" sounds alot like repression... repression and casual over indulgence actually have a direct relationship. Basically the person tries to repress the desire, but inevitably the instinct wells up, the person finds the effort to repress is futile, gives up and casually over indulges. Sex is an inherent drive, repression is not a viable solution. Instinct is not inherently evil, the way to control it is you channel it into a positive, healthy outlet. When you set up this false choice of "just control yourself"... you are sidestepping the resolution. Rejection of repressive attitudes as being counter-productive is not some advocation of casual sinning, it is infact an attempt to fix that problem dynamic. Also... you talk like there is some profit in sinning, like people have really "gotten away" with something. As you get older you realize that the whole thing is a giant waste of your time - you should have been finding a partner but instead you were getting your rocks off, and you will pay for that. If you think you are "getting away" with something the joke is on you. You see, because there is infact a reason that you shouldn't do these things, you are missing the point of life and foregoing something. We aren't just blindly adhering to some code for its own sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    it's probably most Christian dogma saying you are obligated to be horrible driving this
    Again i don't know anyone who believes this, so... seems to me you are just very confused here. I would just say you are obligated to engage with life & put yourself out there, you can't just sit on your couch and hide from the world and smother all your animal instincts.
    The real Christian philosophy on this is that the law - the repressive aspect of society - leads to inherent conflicts with the animal instinct, and derails the instinct. You can't escape society, the law, or the inherent repression, but you can work to free yourself from it in degrees, and not worsen it through casual disregard. But ultimately liberation in Christianity occurs on the level of the spirit. So your dilemma is a false one - if a person is wrong in their spirit, but merely claiming abdication of responsibility in a convenient, exploitative way, then they have not been liberated. Infact I think they've committed the crime against the Holy spirit if they're doing that, so...
    This is consistent with what I've been saying.. it also happens to be totally correct and realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    not anything about sex instincts. If the greatest saints were the worst sinners, who do you think the worst sinners are, really?
    I don't know what you're talking about, I've never implied the greatest saints are the worst sinners. I think you are very confused here.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 09-25-2022 at 12:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogOfDanger View Post
    From the standpoint of evolution whether you 'live' is completely irrelevant if you don't produce offspring that can survive & reproduce. Biology has ensured, over the course of billions of years, that you can't merely turn off that instinct at will.
    Raping kids is not a natural instinct. Also that view of evolution is scientifically incorrect. Look how speciation really occurs. Additionally, there are biologically immortal organisms.


    Eh, I honestly think the typical Buddists attitude on sex is healthier. Buddism is alot more in touch with the darker aspects of human experience, including sexuality & other things, Hinduism on the whole takes a very ambivalent viewpoint on everything. Whatever path you choose is a valid path, you will deal with the karma of it but you'll be enlightened eventually. An ambivalent morality like this lacks the "ought" that the Christian / Jewish morality has... and I can criticize it on those grounds, but one clear advantage of it is that it doesn't seem to lead to repression, superficiality, and intimacy problems - things that plague the Jewish / Christian communities. If you ask me, this is because some Christians - a sizable portion of them, but certainly not all - are actually stuck in a very repressive Jewish mindset.
    Buddhist monks that adhere to celibacy live a monastic life, mostly in isolation... if they do have sexual scandals (and I'm sure some of them do, that's inevitable) I doubt they're as widely publicized, I certainly have not heard of any... there would also be less potential victims around them... the Christian church is also a very visible, politically relevant social institution, when there's a scandal people hear about it. For example... there are plenty of random people in society convicted of sex crimes against minors, the sex offender registry list is full of them, but the same level of attention is given to them as is given to a member of the clergy doing something.
    So, starve yourself underneath a tree while begging for everything you have?


    Your idea of "control" sounds alot like repression which is ultimately what's most responsible for the darkest expression of instinct. Instinct is not inherently evil, the way to control it to channel it into a healthy outlet. Rejection of repressive attitudes as being counter-productive is not some advocation of casual sinning. Also... you talk like there is some profit in sinning, like people have really "gotten away" with something. As you get older you realize that the whole thing is a giant waste of your time - if you think you are "getting away" with something the joke is on you. But no, I don't think Christians typically believe this and nothing I'm saying implies it... but it is true that you cannot merely repress the instincts and hope to make any real progress that way.
    TIL it's repression to not rape children, murder anyone who annoys you, steal anything you want, and the like.


    Again i don't know anyone who believes this, so... seems to me you are just very confused here.
    Every Christian believes that. "Every day each of us sins in word, thought, and deed." They believe it is inevitable to commit sins. If someone believes it's inevitable to commit sins, where's the line? Is it inevitable to commit a little white lie but we should still be disgusted at people who rape children? Or maybe you can control yourself and choose not to lie and not to rape children even if these things are not comparable? Never mind that in Christianity all sins really are comparable. Someone who took the doctrine seriously would probably see no difference between saying something mean once and raping a child, because all sins are infinite transgressions against God that can never be compensated for except by God's human ritual sacrifice 2000 years ago.

    The core problem, from what it sounds like, is that you wrongfully equate sin with the natural, healthy expression of your animal instincts.
    No, I equate sin with people doing things like raping children. I don't think that's a healthy instinct. I am pointing out the contradictions in Catholicism: "Even the worst sinners are saved if they just say sorry! Except serial child molesters, those people can't be forgiven." The religion says they can be just for saying sorry, though. If people feel like child molesters are blameworthy that's because they disagree with Catholic dogma.
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    Well, you have misinterpreted that in such a stupid way that I don't think it justifies a response. Nowhere did I imply that raping kids is somehow the liberating healthy expression of the sexual instincts. The healthy fulfillment of the sexual instincts is engagement with peers of the opposite sex leading to a happy marriage or something. I don't know how you would even confuse this.... And sexual selection is the most powerful force in evolution...
    Sex with kids doesn't even produce offspring since they aren't fertile or even remotely ready for that.

    Read this part, it answers some of what you just said:
    "The real Christian philosophy on this is that the law - the repressive aspect of society - leads to inherent conflicts with the animal instinct, and derails the instinct. You can't escape society, the law, or the inherent repression, but you can work to free yourself from it in degrees, and not worsen it through casual disregard. But ultimately liberation in Christianity occurs on the level of the spirit. So your dilemma is a false one - if a person is wrong in their spirit, but merely claiming abdication of responsibility in a convenient, exploitative way, then they have not been liberated. Infact I think they've committed the crime against the Holy spirit if they're doing that, so..."

    So what distinguishes this is whether the person genuinely is trying to rectify things or not. And it is often the case that people would like to, but don't know how, or don't understand themselves well enough to do it, or lack control over their lives to arrange their life favorably, or any number of other things. On the other hand you do have people merely exploiting others for their own benefit, including some child rapists and others. But what you are describing is not a mainstream Christian belief, keep trying.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 09-24-2022 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I mean, whenever I do hear a more theological type than End talk to me, they say Christianity also says you can't choose not to sin. So better start engaging in gangrape and pedophilia and mugging and murder and cannibalism, and just tell daddy you're sorry afterwards so you can go to the good place and not the bad place. Everyone sins, you can't choose to control yourself at all, you can only choose to dress in red from head to toe while whipping yourself raw and chanting magic words to beings other than God afterwards.

    Exceptions: I don't think the Eastern Orthodox or Unitarian churches share that belief. The Eastern Orthodox Church seems to think corruption of the heart exists regardless of actions and you can choose not to sin but you're still corrupted internally. The Unitarian church doesn't seem to believe in original sin at all. Both of these viewpoints at least seem to actually make the idea of judging people for child rape coherent. I mean, in the Catholic worldview of course the priest can rape all the little boys he wants as long as he says sorry and beats himself afterwards. It's almost silly a Catholic would care about pedophilic rapes when they think everyone is an inexorably and infinitely dirty sinner with no ability to stop themselves from sinning, and even the worst can just say sorry and still go to Heaven. The fact that any of them care is probably a testimony people can still be decent despite being Catholic. If I had to guess why there are more raping priests than raping schoolteachers, I'd say it's because Catholicism says you have no ability to stop yourself from taking sinful actions combined with the fact it allows you to just say sorry even when you're on your deathbed. Artificial celibacy seems silly, but Buddhists don't have that problem and I don't think it's because the Catholics are being tested by Satan, I think it's the obscene ideology that you have no ability to control yourself so you're forgiven infinitely as long as you apologize, without having to do anything because your body is just Satan's meat puppet to begin with in Catholicism. Protestants would probably have the same problem if they had organized structures since they also believe your body is Satan's meat puppet and you can't stop yourself from sinning "in word, thought, and deed."
    I doubt Buddhists are less bad than the Catholics. They just have less power in Western society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Raping kids is not a natural instinct.
    How do you determine what is or isn't a natural instinct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogOfDanger View Post
    Well, you have misinterpreted that in such a stupid way that I don't think it justifies a response. Nowhere did I imply that raping kids is somehow the liberating healthy expression of the sexual instincts. The healthy fulfillment of the sexual instincts is engagement with peers of the opposite sex leading to a happy marriage or something. I don't know how you would even confuse this.... And sexual selection is the most powerful force in evolution...
    Sex with kids doesn't even produce offspring since they aren't fertile or even remotely ready for that.

    Read this part, it answers some of what you just said:
    "The real Christian philosophy on this is that the law - the repressive aspect of society - leads to inherent conflicts with the animal instinct, and derails the instinct. You can't escape society, the law, or the inherent repression, but you can work to free yourself from it in degrees, and not worsen it through casual disregard. But ultimately liberation in Christianity occurs on the level of the spirit. So your dilemma is a false one - if a person is wrong in their spirit, but merely claiming abdication of responsibility in a convenient, exploitative way, then they have not been liberated. Infact I think they've committed the crime against the Holy spirit if they're doing that, so..."

    So what distinguishes this is whether the person genuinely is trying to rectify things or not. And it is often the case that people would like to, but don't know how, or don't understand themselves well enough to do it, or lack control over their lives to arrange their life favorably, or any number of other things. On the other hand you do have people merely exploiting others for their own benefit, including some child rapists and others. But what you are describing is not a mainstream Christian belief, keep trying.
    ...Are you a Protestant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How do you determine what is or isn't a natural instinct?
    Well, most people don't want to rape kids and are horrified by that thought so it's probably not a natural instinct, unlike things like eating, sleeping, using the bathroom, regular sex with adults, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Well, most people don't want to rape kids and are horrified by that thought so it's probably not a natural instinct, unlike things like eating, sleeping, using the bathroom, regular sex with adults, etc.
    That's probably a bad way of determining what isn't a natural instinct. That would make being Catholic also an unnatural instinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    That's probably a bad way of determining what isn't a natural instinct. That would make being Catholic also an unnatural instinct.
    That would only apply if being Catholic is an instinct. And know what, it might be an unnatural instinct. People in nature probably just do animism or something, or they don't care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How do you determine what is or isn't a natural instinct?
    Evolution. Kids are not capable of reproducing so there would be no evolutionary benefit of that, hence there wouldn't be an instinct to do that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    That would only apply if being Catholic is an instinct. And know what, it might be an unnatural instinct. People in nature probably just do animism or something, or they don't care.
    I doubt chimpanzees are horrified by rape. And many human religions and cultures consider it acceptable.

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