Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 84

Thread: How to define intuition?

  1. #1
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default How to define intuition?

    Years of Jung studies and still I have too weak methods/definitions to categorize what intuition does.

    I mean, I can understand on a more superficial level what it does and how to spot it in others very well, but if I have to think what I value most, I just don't know.

    It's like I lack the comprehension of these concepts if they aren't related to others or between others. I need to analyze others to see these concepts and then it will be super easy to categorize.

    If I try asking myself what it is for me, I just come to the conclusion that maybe Ni is more archetypical in the way it seeks connections between things, and the importance is on the matrix of the process, while Ne valuers give more importance to the products of connections, not the matrix. So, maybe I value Ni more, because I spend my life trying to categorize abstract connections I perceive between both people and things, and I reach conclusions that try to "close" things in a way I will know how to act if same things happens again.
    Or, I can rely on the fact my Ne lead friends tell me I'm too sure to know how things will go in the future, not giving a chance to possibilities that I sense will go nowhere.
    But... that sound incomplete, and I may be wrong.

    Anyway, here some question:

    - how to differentiate Ne and Ni in a way I can have zero doubts about it if I have to not rely in analyzing others?


    - What about Ti and Ni?
    Does Ni perceives connections between things while Ti categorizes these informations?
    How to understand if I value more Ti than Ni and vice versa? (Higher dimensionality for Ti respect to Ni, for exemple)

    - Being intuitive detatches you from the real world, but at what extent?

    Now a strange question:
    - How can I understand in a deeper way if intuition is connected to something not directly lived? like for exemple dreams, books and other medias?

    If a person concentrate on the sensations he felt and images he saw during his dreams, it is more a sensing or intuitive thing?
    Last edited by Lesri; 09-01-2022 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #2
    AKA Emily Snowgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Somewhere
    TIM
    TeNe or NeTe , FVLE
    Posts
    714
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    - Being intuitive detatches you from the real world, but at what extent?
    When a function works , the opposite function doesn't work
    When Ni work , Si is disabled and the opposite is true, the same for Pe ( Ne and Se)

    Ns will be detached from reality when their Nx is working, but in general , at what extent are Ns detached from the real world , is dependent on how much strong are their sensing functions
    It would seem that the individual had the intuition that he hides a pig inside himself and said," No! I'm going to define myself as a detached pig. "

  3. #3
    Wavebury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    knowhere
    TIM
    LSI-C
    Posts
    5,836
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is actually a very good question that more people should ask themselves around here.

    Everyone uses all the functions, so it's all about to what extent you use it with respect to other people. And this can be deceptive. This is also why I trust typing services with years of experience and thousands of people typed, because being intuitive is not about whether you engage in alot of abstract thinking (what is "alot", anyways? It's all relative). I don't trust amateurs who have typed their 2 neighbours, their relatives, their 2 exes and their cat, because this is not a large enough sample size to determine psychometric traits. It doesn't allow you to have a background against which you can see the psychometric traits being tested for (Jungian preferences like intuition) and against which the individual should be compared and contrasted.


  4. #4
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Lesri
    Ok, let me share my thoughts to your questions.
    You want to define and categorize information? That sounds like a clear case of Ti (introverted thinking) to me.
    The question is do you want it in a way that it is easier for yourself or for other people to understand.

    When it comes to intution. I would describe it in my own words as abstract pattern association. Ok, that might not be that useful for you.
    When it comes to perception functions. Extroverted perception is static and introverted perception is dynamic.
    Which means: The associations of Ne are static and the associations of Ni are dynamic.

    I would describe Ne as spotanous and it has a snapshot like feeling, but with Ne you can see differerent asscotiations in a row between different ideas.

    With Ni the associations changes their represantation. I would't say Ni seeks, it finds. I would assign the word seeking to Ne, but your subconscious does that for you and me.

  5. #5
    The Crucified Space Sheriff godslave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Southern France
    TIM
    H 964 sp/sx
    Posts
    810
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Intuition is the perception of what is not materialy present and is not a memory. Intuition is not that different from inspiration. Intuition can manifest as images, simulation of events and their development through a Time relative to the subject (mostly not real time) (Ni) and/or as the exploration thought ideas about the potentialities to alternate the nature of things including situations (Ne). Intuition can also be controlled and generated at will if it's strong enough.

  6. #6
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It might depend on the person, but for me intuition works best when I'm in a relaxed state, at least mentally. Forcing ideas does not work well for me.

  7. #7
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    @Lesri
    Ok, let me share my thoughts to your questions.
    You want to define and categorize information? That sounds like a clear case of Ti (introverted thinking) to me.
    The question is do you want it in a way that it is easier for yourself or for other people to understand.
    I do it more for myself. If I think my explaination is better than the others', I will also share it to those who need it.

    About intuition, are you able to do exemples ("Ni valuer does X because of Y, while Ne valuer does Z" etc.)?
    I agree on Your description, but it's still hard for me to imagine in myself what I do most.

    My exemple would be:
    I would say a Ni valuer would sacrifice opportunities if they sound less probable, because he consider their developme through time, while the Ne valuer tries it anyways because "ther's the chance to make it work" even if low, and even if it is a risk for various reason (time wasted ecc.). Do you think it is correct?

  8. #8
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    I do it more for myself.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    About intuition, are you able to do exemples ("Ni valuer does X because of Y, while Ne valuer does Z" etc.)?
    I doubt that it does work that way, because intuition comes before judgement. You are trying to define intution based on logic. Logic does filter the information based on intuition, but who knows what intuition is based on?
    You can also ask what was before the big bang?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    My exemple would be:
    I would say a Ni valuer would sacrifice opportunities if they sound less probable, because he consider their developme through time, while the Ne valuer tries it anyways because "ther's the chance to make it work" even if low, and even if it is a risk for various reason (time wasted ecc.). Do you think it is correct?
    Good question. To compare Ni and Ne in such a way, somebody would need to have both functions as concious function.
    Ni is somewhat difficult to access for me. I can't tell how it works, I experience the result from that function only.

  9. #9
    Too deep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    TIM
    H-LII
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The Gulenko description of NE was very good to me . The eyes that stop at the midpoint suddenly and even your body staying frozen in the position where the inspiration stroke , all those years never knew what this even was. There is also then this boost of energy and enthusiasm cause you can sense all the new possibilities and there is potential for something promising in what just emerged .


    To me NE is like what’s next it expand naturally . You already know everything but it’s not helping you need something new but not anything. It skip everything and just give you something to unlock the situation, It’s like turning on the light it’s sudden and I feel like it’s a connection of everything you already know subconsciously that produce this lightning.


    NI to me is more like calculating approximately. It’s also like a vision or an image even a film idk where you can imagine ok this will happen but then also this this mean also this could happen then , well look this way I didn’t forgot this could happen too. There’s every possibilities some might diverge somewhere more if you want to pay more attention specifically but in this state the focus is more about making an estimation of where all this is pointing toward. Then you can have your big picture .


    You now know how to maneuver in accordance to those estimation you made of what could happen and never get thrown off track of the road you saw who’ll lead to your end picture . You’ll know what you really shouldn’t do at all cause it go too far from estimation and what you should really do, to not miss out on where you want to go.


    Last edited by Too deep; 09-03-2022 at 05:06 AM.

  10. #10
    Too deep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    TIM
    H-LII
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I made NI seem like this godlike thing. There’s imagining then the real world . Being able to move all the obstacles to get there being aware of all the physical details , things that happen very fast with peoples, having quick reactions when something happen, having the energy ect . Intuition is described as big picture can see how it forget details and is not realistic. Something’s that are just details for intuitive are not for sensors and those details are indeed not just that at times.

  11. #11
    ouronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    TIM
    ref to ptr to self
    Posts
    2,992
    Mentioned
    130 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I could say what my ideas of it are but everyone will claim some sensor has that thing I'm describing. So they may. For me, I interpret Jung's intuition as natural insight into or coming from the unconscious mind (which is not a simple one-source thing itself), usually at the level of the personal unconscious (which is of course fueled by the collective unconscious+the environment). This is where the intuitive's famous ability to "guess solutions others cannot" (as gulenko puts it) or see worlds others cannot comes from. Intuitives I've seen usually sharpen their intuition over the years by putting various situations to the test on it and seeing how it holds up, and adjusting their judgment in response (biased towards alpha NTs and maybe ego or creative functions, but all intuitives put their intuition to the test, whether completely unknowingly or not).

  12. #12
    ouronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    TIM
    ref to ptr to self
    Posts
    2,992
    Mentioned
    130 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnin up View Post
    I made NI seem like this godlike thing. There’s imagining then the real world . Being able to move all the obstacles to get there being aware of all the physical details , things that happen very fast with peoples, having quick reactions when something happen, having the energy ect . Intuition is described as big picture can see how it forget details and is not realistic. Something’s that are just details for intuitive are not for sensors and those details are indeed not just that at times.
    I think Ni comes with the ability to have a good sense of strategic timing.

  13. #13
    ouronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    TIM
    ref to ptr to self
    Posts
    2,992
    Mentioned
    130 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    One more thought: I think sensors have an advantage over intuitives in the following way: since their thoughts are based on consciously available pieces of perception, it is much easier for them to adjust on the fly and to think quickly in the first place (assuming the facts used to establish the line of thought are already gained). While an intuitive may be able to jump ahead in the case a solid line of facts has not been established, the potential algorithms for managing their intuition are much more inefficient because they don't have conscious access to their perception process. Sensors can more readily routinize procedures and thought coming from their perceptory data than intuitives, who essentially need to run risk mitigation strategies to make sure they get the best results out of their thoughts.

  14. #14
    Too deep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    TIM
    H-LII
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I think Ni comes with the ability to have a good sense of strategic timing.
    Yeah that’s what I was trying to refer too in the part where I talk about you know what you should really not do cause you move too far away and where you should really do something to not miss out.

  15. #15
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,705
    Mentioned
    278 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    - What about Ti and Ni?
    Does Ni perceives connections between things while Ti categorizes these informations?
    How to understand if I value more Ti than Ni and vice versa? (Higher dimensionality for Ti respect to Ni, for exemple)

    - Being intuitive detatches you from the real world, but at what extent?
    I can answer this one. If is dominant than you're in a rather... hard to describe situation. You know full good and well what you've done and why but the when is rather nebulous. I know if I did a thing, but the exact timetable escapes me more often than not. Past, Present, Future, it all blends into a mist. It's all so foggy. Yet it isn't. A thing must be done. If nobody else realizes what that is than it falls upon me. I have the best chance of surviving that nightmare and getting everyone else out alive because of that. So yeah, I'll take the point position...

    You're also comparing apples to oranges as it were. and relate to and . and relate to and . Functions are paired by outright necessity. They both need the other to actually work as intended. As for me I'll just lay out how needs as that's kinda what any true valuer is looking for. types seek out types and vice versa.

    correlates data. It's utterly useless without data to correlate. The same goes for . All the data in the world and then some. What does it all mean? Well, can and does put meaning and purpose to said raw sensual experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I think Ni comes with the ability to have a good sense of strategic timing.
    is, from one point of view, one's ability to perceive and appreciate the value of time and act accordingly. Strategy may well be a thing to throw out the window if the situation requires it. There is a time for all things after all. Sometimes just giving into your emotions and going "Berserk" is the best play. Other times it's the absolute dumbest.

    Fucking hell this all ties into pretty much everything I've cared to mention both past and present. I wonder if this is what types tend to experience. It's all connected man! It all really does feel like that from my end...

  16. #16
    EIE Ni H dewusional entitwed snowfwake VewyScawwyNawcissist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    uNdeR yOur SkIn
    TIM
    EIEniH 641sx/spVELF
    Posts
    2,473
    Mentioned
    120 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    patterns
    sensors have more difficulty putting 2 and 2 together in a complex sense. they cant see the same thing from different points of reference to define in properly. an LSI told me i "kept canging the context" but my point was exactly what she said makes no sense at all because its not consistent across the board yet she infers a general principle for it. now something can be cosnistent and true even tho it manifests in different ways superficially. a sensor most of the time will not look into it, will not look into it deep enough and will not understand even if they have the information laid out in front of them. this is because they dont use proejctions of possibilities and ideas to explore each part of the information and realte it to all the others. of course intuitives dont see all the patterns immediately, but in general intuitives seem to be way more perceptive of different kinds of information, on average. sensors are more likely to ignore/think pieces of informaiton or ideas as stupid or nonsensical before they've actually done the effort to verify it but they are part of the larger picture hence they wont figure the inner workings of something as much. ofc an intuitive can call something stupid or nonsensical but they are again more likely to actually look into it and not hold it as a super rigid idea in their mind. u can even forcefully talk to an intuitive about something easier until they understand it while a sensor will tell u to fuck off use threats walk away make an excuse etc. in other words they are more likely to make easy decisions instead of correct ones.
    Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
    I want to care
    if I was better I’d help you
    if I was better you’d be better
    HELLO??? COME BACK!!!!
    i'm afraid it will hurt like hell, i am afraid of screaming and i am afraid of crying, i am afraid of forgetting but i'm not afraid of dying.



  17. #17
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnin up View Post
    I made NI seem like this godlike thing. There’s imagining then the real world . Being able to move all the obstacles to get there being aware of all the physical details , things that happen very fast with peoples, having quick reactions when something happen, having the energy ect . Intuition is described as big picture can see how it forget details and is not realistic. Something’s that are just details for intuitive are not for sensors and those details are indeed not just that at times.
    It reminds to me an ILI girl (self typed, but I always thought she was ILI too). She planned things that for me were insane and... kinda strange.

    She instantly planned her future with very far "online partners" she never met in real life (far = different continent, language etc.). I always said her "You are beautiful and sure have no problem finding guys here. Why you commit to so far guys? It would be problematic and risky because of distance etc." and she insulted me.

    In the end, these relationship went sh1t, but I shouldn't say those things. I discovered later how a Ni lead works. I admire they just don't consider material obstacles and are quite good in dealing with it too (ILI have Te creative at least).

    This is the one reason that made me think I was not Ni lead. I clash too much with them on these matters.

  18. #18
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    You can also ask what was before the big bang?
    Ironically, I have my answer to this. I don't think it being off topic because for sure can relate to Ti or Ni (or other ie).
    I thought that before big bang there is chaos, or "God". A static point with no time and space. It contains all materia but in a compressed "file" (like a .rar lmao).
    Something (we cannot image what because we are limited to just understand our systems, as humans) unconpressed it and materia came out, and when the extraction ends (the universe enlarges at its max point), it will be compressed again, and returning to one, reaching "God", and than big bang again.

    I read Giordano Bruno's work this way: "God is in everything", because we are parts of Gods, but all distinct from eachother and try to feel on earth that chaos in various ways, like relating to other gods parts (other people, experiences, objects etc.) or with melancholy and nostalgia for that chaos (Titanism), and so poetry and arts.

    Evangelion has similiar principle too: people cannot 100% comprehend eachother because they are distinct respect when they were chaos, so Shinji tries to make everything one to never feel betrayed again. Barriers between people will disappear if they all become one again. But he doesn't like it anyway and undo, because having all distinct was better.

    To me, dreams we do are a manifestation of that chaos. When we are awake, our lives are mathematics, ruled by law, but during the night ther's "confusion", and reflection. Schopenhauer said the night being the moment in which we "reflect like the moon the light of the sun", filtering it, being the sun = what is material and connected to our physical life. I think all of this being connected to chaos, a deep analysis that brings us to the discover that everything is meaningless in the end, and this happens infact most during the night.
    Most of the time dreams make no sense and are twisted.

    So... returning to socionics
    I had several discussions about this with LIIs, IEIs a d ILI and most of them gives me credit it makes sense. How to understand the matrix of all these conclusions?
    I knew "principles" where more Ti, and philosophy too, while in Mbti Ni was more for these things.

    I think most of the people interested in these kind of things to the point of making it relevant for them are Ni or Ti valuers.

    I spent my free time creating different mythologies with the same principles just because I want to. I like to make sense of this principle in an easier and "fantasy" way. But is this Ni or Ti?
    Last edited by Lesri; 09-03-2022 at 11:25 AM.

  19. #19
    mbti INFJ born2simp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    xoxo
    TIM
    school shooter one
    Posts
    657
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    how to enlarge your dragon, click here

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

  20. #20
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ok, I did some reflection on what Ni could be.

    My realization is that it's a multi-dimensional pattern, each aspect of experience is transformed into an individuel dimension of that pattern.

    With accumulation of experience that pattern expands in a certain direction. Each experience has different weights and affects that pattern that it changes shape and it's direction of growth.

    For me it's like something it's happening somewhere in the background of my concious, and sometimes I realize events develop in a direction I don't want.

  21. #21
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    Ironically, I have my answer to this. I don't think it being off topic because for sure can relate to Ti or Ni (or other ie).
    Sorry, I forgot to reply to this. You replied in a positive way to my Ne-based statement.

    Science has the answer that there was no before the big bang, because time itself started with it, so there can be no before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    To me, dreams we do are a manifestation of that chaos.
    Dreams are imagery of the human subconcious to me.

    Tests with sensory deprivation shows that this state can be induced, which can be shocking to some people. People who are locked up in dark prison cells start to hallucinate.
    Seems to me that suppressing sensing induces a dream state in humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    I think most of the people interested in these kind of things to the point of making it relevant for them are Ni or Ti valuers.
    I guess intuitive types more likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    I spent my free time creating different mythologies with the same principles just because I want to. I like to make sense of this principle in an easier and "fantasy" way. But is this Ni or Ti?
    Ti + Ne, IMO

    Addendum:
    Not a definition of intuition. More like my own experience of intuition and sensing when I listen to music.

    The presense of Ni feels to me like travelling slowly throught the piece of music,
    Si feels like the music spins slowly around me, usually a piece of music with low dynamics
    Se is more a high energy around a limited area to me,
    Ne jumps and bounces around.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 09-05-2022 at 02:07 AM.

  22. #22
    CR400AF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    LII 5w6-1w9-2w1
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    Years of Jung studies and still I have too weak methods/definitions to categorize what intuition does.

    I mean, I can understand on a more superficial level what it does and how to spot it in others very well, but if I have to think what I value most, I just don't know.
    I think there are 2 ways to understand these functions:

    1) The dichotomy-based Socionics definition. It's easy to check.
    2) The fundamental definition by Jung. But you need to focus on the fundamental definitions such as introversion, extraversion and intuition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    maybe Ni is more archetypical in the way it seeks connections between things, and the importance is on the matrix of the process, while Ne valuers give more importance to the products of connections, not the matrix.
    Both Ni and Ne perceives the internal of things. However, they differ because they have different values. Ne gives importance to the essence of object. Since Ne is extraverted, it values the aspects that's decided by the objective objects instead of the related archetypes in our collective unconscious. On the other hand, Ni give importance to the archetype so it takes advantage of the evolved experience in our collective unconscious to "see the past, now and future". Such experiences are the experiences of the whole human beings, they are evolved and we gain them from our heritage. Ni utilizes such experiences to make predictions.

    In my opinion, Jung's example of Ni is very clear to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung, Psychological Types
    Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervationdisturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects.


    In this example, the archetype "a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow" is the experience in the collective unconscious of human being.QUOTE=Lesri;1529781Ni, as an introverted function, values the archetype, which is introverted. Ni utilizes the dynamic developments in this archetype, "how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades" and hence concludes the prediction on how the vertigo forms and how will it fades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    - What about Ti and Ni?
    Does Ni perceives connections between things while Ti categorizes these informations?
    How to understand if I value more Ti than Ni and vice versa? (Higher dimensionality for Ti respect to Ni, for exemple)
    Ti is a rational/judging function while Ni is an irrational/perceiving one. I think the processes you described is a comprehensive one instead of any solo function/element.

    Ti is a judging function. In the judging of Ti, the valued aspects are from our common experience instead of the objective objects. For instance, the laws of logical reasoning is common among all nations and races. Ti values the laws of logical reasoning instead of those from the objective world (e.g. experimental results from a machine) when making judgments.

  23. #23
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post

    Science has the answer that there was no before the big bang, because time itself started with it, so there can be no before.

    Dreams are imagery of the human subconcious to me.

    Tests with sensory deprivation shows that this state can be induced, which can be shocking to some people. People who are locked up in dark prison cells start to hallucinate.
    Seems to me that suppressing sensing induces a dream state in humans.


    I guess intuitive types more likely.


    Ti + Ne, IMO

    Addendum:
    Not a definition of intuition. More like my own experience of intuition and sensing when I listen to music.

    The presense of Ni feels to me like travelling slowly throught the piece of music,
    Si feels like the music spins slowly around me, usually a piece of music with low dynamics
    Se is more a high energy around a limited area to me,
    Ne jumps and bounces around.
    Thanks for your reply. There are a lot of interest things here!

    So. I like speaking about these things and at the same time I'm not so much serious. It's like "Yeah for me it is this way, but I don't mind at the point to make a deep sense of it". I like it being "superficial", because I feel my explaination goes well with my structure of thoughts and what other think it's just a good way to play around a theory and discuss, but I've already decided. Being a non important factor in my life, I can choose to not trust scientists, but taking in consideration that "they could be right - whatever".

    Yeah time started with big bang, but for me it necessary that it wasn't just the start. It's like the eternal return (Nietzsche). There must be an external or internal force that function with its own laws (which are different from ours) that made the big bang happens once. Before the Big bang ther's the "zero point". Ther's nothing, an infinite nothing but also a no-time nothing. In our "dimension" (idk how to call it) that precise moment before Big Bang explodes and the other when it reaches the max compression are the same, so we skip that zero point, which is the divine, only to be conceptualized in another plane of existence where other rules exists and we cannot comprehend them. Those rules make sense of that infinite nothing, but works in a way we cannot understand (because We are made to understand just our system), and so I stopped to think about it because it is useless. We have no the tools to understand.

    The zero point is nothing more than "paradise", Plato's Hyperuranium etc. We cannot understand it fully, so we use myths to make it easier its superficial explaination. And that's why I love myths! I like to think it is were the archetypes lay, because reality comes from this one and its just a derivative.

    About dreams, subconscious for me it's connected to that chaos too

    I read about experiments of sensory deprivation and tried one of them. It consists in being in a dark room listening "white noises" and putting on your eyes red spheres which press a little, whith a red light passing through (I don't Remember well idk). This is a method to get vision and hear things. It is curious, because when reality "lacks", chaos takes you back, like you were possessed.

    About music, I love it and I have a similiar experience to yours.
    I listen most to 60-70-80s songs and I feel like I'm immersed in another time period (I never lived) and feel very nostalgic. It's like I reach the conclusion that: "This song was the vibe of that period", and that those were the general emotions lived by people. I feel a dissatisfaction with the period in which I live. I always feel I born too late. Despite liking technology and sh1t, I would prefer a more natural kind of life.
    What you say about Si is very common to INTj and INFj I know. They describe the same way music, and prefer that with low dynamics.

    I can play piano without studies and I understand well how the intruments work in general (like my SLI father). We prefer hands-on learning. Idk what this could mean regarding I.Es.

    People connect me to LSIs but say I have also a little powerup or heavy interest on Ni. When I ask them If they see Ne in me they say no because I don't give value to possibilities and get anxious in those matters (Ne Polr?). It's like they connect my thoughts more to a mob Ni rather than Ne (and my imaginary worlds too, because I write stories about those myths I create), plus I'm impositive and good at dressing/cure myself (valued Se?). INTjs have Si mob but I don't value that function and feel an heavy difference between me and XII because I'm more... rude? brutal? At time impulsive if a task need to be done. They are good at calming me, but the best in doing it is the EXE.
    Btw thanks for you contribution. Liked a lot what you said.

  24. #24
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    3,827
    Mentioned
    289 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CR400AF View Post
    In my opinion, Jung's example of Ni is very clear to understand.



    In this example, the archetype "a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow" is the experience in the collective unconscious of human being.QUOTE=Lesri;1529781Ni, as an introverted function, values the archetype, which is introverted. Ni utilizes the dynamic developments in this archetype, "how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades" and hence concludes the prediction on how the vertigo forms and how will it fades.

    I was thinking about the same example also. I suspect that this can be one reason why Ni types could perceive pain (or any innervation disturbance) maybe more as a "victim", because they are aware of the suffering on an archetypal level.

    Jung's example is also very interesting for the reason that he shows how Ni and Si are connected.

    (I personally feel some kind of vertigo almost all the time, more or less, so for that reason the example is fascinating to me)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  25. #25
    CR400AF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    LII 5w6-1w9-2w1
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I was thinking about the same example also. I suspect that this can be one reason why Ni types could perceive pain (or any innervation disturbance) maybe more as a "victim", because they are aware of the suffering on an archetypal level.

    Jung's example is also very interesting for the reason that he shows how Ni and Si are connected.

    (I personally feel some kind of vertigo almost all the time, more or less, so for that reason the example is fascinating to me)
    To me this example is among the best. I think it demonstrate how archetypes are utilized by introverted functions. Also, it's a very good illustration of Jung's idea of projection.

  26. #26
    persimmonism's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    769
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Lesri
    You can't think of the IEs as isolated entities; they must be thought of in the dichotomies they exist as.
    Meaning: Ne/Si and Se/Ni.
    And to a lesser degree: Ni/Ne and Si/Se
    (Same with rational elements)

    THUS: if you think that Ni is a certain way, it must be seen how this complements with Se, and then in order for it to be valid, the comparison must transfer correctly with Si and Ne.

    And I think you probably mull over Socionics things plenty (as one should), so just keep this in mind when you mull over the differences between each IE after reading all the useful contributions from others.

    ~~~
    "Being intuitive detaches you from the real world, but at what extent?"
    It detaches you from the concrete world, sure, just as being sensing detaches you from the abstract world. Define "real" though.. both are just two sides to reality.


    "
    how to differentiate Ne and Ni in a way I can have zero doubts about it if I have to not rely in analyzing others?"
    Base Ni = perpetually doubtful
    HA Ti = wants everything to make sense, except is shitty at it and runs in logical circles
    Ni + mediocre Ti = craves an Ultimate Answer That Will Make Everything Make Sense... in vain.
    (tl;dr sorry you are just SO fucking IEI.)


    "
    What about Ti and Ni?"
    Maybe try and understand them via the contrast with their complementary function. I say this because it's hard for me to compare/contrast them directly because it's like apples and oranges. I think, though, if you struggle with this, it means that you need to gain an understanding first of P vs J (Pe/Pi vs Je/Ji)... and THEN look into the specific IEs.
    Ti --- needs Fe emotionality ("emotionality" not "emotion") to give life to an otherwise dry, logical world void of any color
    Ni --- needs Se concrete grounding, reality, impulse, action to give life to an otherwise passive, inactive, imaginary, (delusional) world

    Soc/Sp/Sx ~ 4w5 1w9 7w6

  27. #27
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    @Lesri
    "Being intuitive detaches you from the real world, but at what extent?"
    It detaches you from the concrete world, sure, just as being sensing detaches you from the abstract world. Define "real" though.. both are just two sides to reality.

    Exemple: being (not) very aware of what is happening around you, being (not) interested in the cure at 100% of physical appearance, spending (not) tons of time in it and in dressing well according to X trends derived from a more sensing/intuition kind of information etc.


    how to differentiate Ne and Ni in a way I can have zero doubts about it if I have to not rely in analyzing others?"
    Base Ni = perpetually doubtful
    HA Ti = wants everything to make sense, except is shitty at it and runs in logical circles
    Ni + mediocre Ti = craves an Ultimate Answer That Will Make Everything Make Sense... in vain.
    (tl;dr sorry you are just SO fucking IEI.)


    "
    What about Ti and Ni?"
    Maybe try and understand them via the contrast with their complementary function. I say this because it's hard for me to compare/contrast them directly because it's like apples and oranges. I think, though, if you struggle with this, it means that you need to gain an understanding first of P vs J (Pe/Pi vs Je/Ji)... and THEN look into the specific IEs.
    Ti --- needs Fe emotionality ("emotionality" not "emotion") to give life to an otherwise dry, logical world void of any color
    Ni --- needs Se concrete grounding, reality, impulse, action to give life to an otherwise passive, inactive, imaginary, (delusional) world
    I like a lot your explainations and think they are true and empirically correct. But, I just think that on this site it is easier to judge a person by what he says, as you cannot know what he is like in real life and his relationships with other types, so I would like to make clearer my point of view about "why I'm not that type", and this will be very long

    "Base Ni = perpetually doubtful"
    Ni + mediocre Ti = craves an Ultimate Answer That Will Make Everything Make Sense... in vain.
    Sure, and that's what I see in IEIs. You gave me a base to develop further my point of view.
    What I think is that IEIs (and ILIs) have more of an "existencial doubt".
    They seem to be in a continuous state of "vision". Almost everything in the world is viewed with a "meaning" filter. Many of them love modern art (and art in general) for example, as they can see great meaning in even something seemingly simple. It's like they are immersed in titanism or sublime. This leads them to be less "concrete", maybe because they know life it's just "a short journey which does not complete the human meaning" (words my IEI crush said to me).

    Dealing with IEI puts me in a condition of apparent amazing connection at the start, because I am interested in "meanings" too, but I then find them too much detatched from society and disinterested in "important" (to me) matters, like money or position in society.


    • female IEI friend of mine valued every second of her time to "work" in her artistical projects and could vanish for months and replying to my mex after this period pretending it was normal and that the other person would not get irritated. I find this in 90% of Ni leads. If I try to abstract myself enough I can feel their entire being perceive time differently from me.


    The same happened for other three Ni leads:
    • my ILI ex-gf, who is well known to disappear, replying after years, living in an ancient contemplative world, searching for "meanings". I just couldn't comprehend this at that time.
    • my IEI crushes, both artistic and detatched, seemingly uninterested in time passing, while searching for meanings and actully making their (artistic) projects real.


    The essential component of Ni lead I completely lack (and that is present in every Ni lead I know) is this: perceive time as ever-present, making past present and future converge.

    As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs.
    What I think its that your exemple is good, but it must be read thinking less to HA Ti as "searching for a label", but more as "searching for the motifs of why it is this way":
    • An IEI girl (the most interesting girl ever met, but with too much different goals from me) was immersed in this continuous state of logical evaluation of dynamics she was afraid of. She always explained the "logical" reason why a person wanted to hurt her or did certain things, always with a "ethical" implication, like a person being evil etc. In this assessment she appeared completely disconnected from reality, because it was obvious that she was wrong (from an external point of view) and that it was extremely illogical. One day I said "My best friend (female) thinks you are perfect for me and likes your style", and she replied "She said this because she likes you and hates me, don't fall in her words" and gave me tons of other mad exmplainations for this, and I was like "just what the f4ck?". Also, yes, she was kinda good with logic related in abstract things, such as philosophy, and way better than me.
    • The friend IEI is doing arts academy. She loved the technical aspect of film making and videogames too. This is a more healty use of "Ti HA" for this type. At the same time it looks weak. In our discussions she sometimes valued some "logical" point of view that to me appeared trivial as hell and just "the starting point" of any kind of informations.


    About all of these IEI:
    • They also give importance to their Si role function a lot. They try to use their Si to adapt the other and make them feel "comfortable" (Superego are mental, "What I must (do)"), not being a lot judgmental of others in general. They feel the need to adapt in the present moment to people they have around. It is often a hallmark of the type. I see this group of artistic people smoking cigarettes together with other people or drinking beer "posing" as mature people. Demonstrative Fi is also quite visible in the intelligent usage of psychological distance that creates around them an "actor" aura.
    • They entire world is full of emotions and they give a sensitive support to friends. They make of feelings their world.
    • They often appear disinterested in money and classic types of work, preferring artistic careers.
    • About Se suggestive, you are right. Still that function have a different "intensity" respect to lead, creative etc. Every IEI I know wants as you say "concrete grounding, reality, impulse, action" in contrast to their costant doubtful state, but it is searched in a sort of twisted way, not so much controlled, and always connected to their lead. So, it is like they want to actualize thei Ni in a concrete way, more that use Se as other high Se valuing type do (this would be more a Se HA thing, who search for "power" in contexts, for exemple). On the outside they appear as having the need to leave a concrete mark on the world or others, but this mark has to carry the meanings of their lead. For example, all of these IEIs I know claim to dress like slobs because so people can perceive them as different from others, because they hate being "normies" and not special. They wants to be perceived "higher" that others, like there was a hierarchy, but their style is not getting that position through imposition or control, but in indirect ways.
    • They very often hate labels or find them unimportant: almost all of these IEIs criticise me for using typing methods, because they claim a person should be free from labels. Imo, a Ti hidden agenda have not the purpose to encapsulate the individual to give him a "role", because the type himself strive for freedom. It would be contraddictory to the core of the type. Some IEI do like these methods, but they don't let it define things to the core and take it "easy", because they know reality is different from labels, and so it is possible every human being behaves differently from the type he belongs to (Ne ignoring but present).


    Even taking into account the most not-stereotypical IEI, a lot of these characteristics would still be present, while I'm too much different.

    My conclusion: LSI
    I think the "need" to label the abstract, and so make a structure in which even things you can't touch are there and fixed, is the consequence of Ni HA that fills the Ne PolR. The individual fears existance of possibilities/ideas that escape from a label, and strive to categorize these insights. This state in reached when the individual is under intense stress and the usage of creative is turned off (because of the context he lives etc.). As you see, it looks like an IEI because symmetrical (Ne ignored- Polr, Ni lead- HA), but have different results.

    I analyzed myself and understood what my fear is: possibilities. I fear that if I am IEI I would be condamned to be bad at work (and so cannot reach money and power), because the structure says Te is PolR, but at the same time I cannot be "good" and intuitive if I'm not NF. I just find it impossible that a person who belongs to a certain structure and position can go against it, because that type has that specific task (because of its function) for the model, still I would like to do both things. So, when speaking about "doubts", yes, I am, but just on this matter, that covers 5% of my entire life. A Ni lead get lables very softly because it is conscious that these lables doesn't encapsulate him, but just describes how he works, and he is still conscious that possibilities exist (high Ne).

    Now, the fundamental differences:


    • I do not tolerate contradictions when it comes to any kind of speech, from politics to principles and behaviors, and I try to remove them when I found them. At work others say this is my best characteristic. I like categories of every kind and work better as implementer of these.
    • Money and work is my main goal in life, and if I not reach it I'm lost. My SLI father consider this a meme, because we are already rich and I have nothing to worry about. Still, it is also a matter of duty and position. I hate seeing powerful people being above me and I feel that my personality cannot show itself at its best if others are hierarchically superior, so I need to surpass. I hate using my family's money because I need to gain mine to feel realized.
    • I really feel I'm better at pragmatical work rather than human relations. It is my element, because things are clear and I feel not judged emotionally. Having to do with social atmospheres is a thing I aim for, but just for short periods of time.
    • I find museums boring, I don't understand well art meaning.
    • I show calm outside with those I don't know, but I'm blunt and aggressive with close friend who don't follow my pragmatical advices or not see the importance of a traditional life.
    • In giving advice, I explain the dynamics of power that are generated between the victim and the wounded, and how to escape them and make the other fall, or just accept and move on. People criticize me because they seek from me emotional help but getting none. I hate to see people investing time in something that sure doesn't work, feeling bad for "love".
    • I value the direct imposition and the judgments of others based on principles. I'm conservative a lot and I don't like the fact people are so free to do the f4ck they want without thaking in account why rules exist (to live life slower and so giving importance and depth to experiences done). Ni lead tend to be lefties (?) idk.
    • I don't value feeling so much as principles. I think feeling is a weak spot in me and I try to escape from it, because I would be distracted from my work and duties (as alredy happened).
    • I also value the physical aspect of others very much. If people don't care about their clothing, face cure etc, and generally how they show themselves on the outside, I judge them. Especially if they dress in an unconventional way just to be seen as "different"
    • I need my physical appearance to be always at its best, because I could potentially create some interest in girls when I go out. I prepare in advance.
    • I need recreational artistic moments from time to time, and search for abstract meanings, but they are not substantial to my entire life. I would like being better with people and look "wise", but I end up being an "impositive dad" to others.


    I also think my relationships with other types are very similiar to the theory, having ILE as supervisor etc.
    I'm probable not a "pure" stereotypical LSI 100%, but in history there were a lot of "intuitive" LSIs (sigmund freud) or Ti lead in general with which I feel very close in my way of being more than feelers.
    It would be unprecise not listening to all people who claim me being T and not F.
    Last edited by Lesri; 09-07-2022 at 01:14 PM.

  28. #28
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    3,827
    Mentioned
    289 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Just some (anal) comments from me:

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    @Lesri
    You can't think of the IEs as isolated entities; they must be thought of in the dichotomies they exist as.
    Meaning: Ne/Si and Se/Ni.
    And to a lesser degree: Ni/Ne and Si/Se
    (Same with rational elements)


    Well, in a way they are isolated precisely because they are dichotomies. And you can observe IEs in isolation. But, as you point out, thinking about them in contrast to the opposite functions can be useful. But you don't necessarily have to do it. Sometimes people wander too far off into speculation when talking about how they complement each other.

    Ti --- needs Fe emotionality ("emotionality" not "emotion") to give life to an otherwise dry, logical world void of any color
    Ni --- needs Se concrete grounding, reality, impulse, action to give life to an otherwise passive, inactive, imaginary, (delusional) world


    I get what you mean. Maybe you meant this, but just to be clear: Ti doesn't "need" Fe. On the contrary, it exists because feeling has been suppressed. Feeling is hostile to thinking and vice versa. That's why we have these dichotomies in the psyche in the first place.

    It's the individual who needs both Ti and Fe. (Or maybe you meant that). He has to avoid becoming too one-sided and has to try to stay in-between. The reason is not only to avoid being too one-sided, but also because getting too far from the suggestive/inferior function will cause it to be projected and that will introduce a whole lot of problems.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  29. #29
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post

    Well, in a way they are isolated precisely because they are dichotomies. And you can observe IEs in isolation. But, as you point out, thinking about them in contrast to the opposite functions can be useful. But you don't necessarily have to do it. Sometimes people wander too far off into speculation when talking about how they complement each other.

    Am I allowed to add my 2 Cent to this?
    I agree with you that we can observe IE in an isolated manner, but in theory only, not in real humans. Humans do always use IE in varied combinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post

    ... Ti doesn't "need" Fe. On the contrary, it exists because feeling has been suppressed. Feeling is hostile to thinking and vice versa. That's why we have these dichotomies in the psyche in the first place.
    Yeah, no human can use personal and impersonal judgement at the same time. But all humans use both judgement styles, more or less.
    Logical types use more impersonal judgement and ethical types use more personal judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post

    He has to avoid becoming too one-sided and has to try to stay in-between.
    One-sided Ti is the attitude: "All other people are irrational"
    One-sided Fi is the attitude: "All other people are amoral",
    I guess.

  30. #30
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    3,827
    Mentioned
    289 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Am I allowed to add my 2 Cent to this?
    I agree with you that we can observe IE in an isolated manner, but in theory only, not in real humans. Humans do always use IE in varied combinations.
    I don't think I agree. If we take Ne bases for example, I can sometimes see them use it in isolation, in a "pure" form, without creative function. Then when the creative function is also used, the person seems more present and productive.

    Also, by introspection, it's easy for me to only observe Si. With Si+Fe comes judgement, it gets different then.

    Yeah, no human can use personal and impersonal judgement at the same time. But all humans use both judgement styles, more or less.
    Logical types use more impersonal judgement and ethical types use more personal judgement.
    The feeling judgement of logical types is inferior. It's not adapted, inefficient, insecure etc. And vice versa: Jung points out that one of the easiest inferior functions to observe is inferior Ti. Blunt, overly negative generalizations. "Everything is just X" "This is nothing but X". I'm sure many of us have heard this from ExE types.

    One-sided Ti is the attitude: "All other people are irrational"
    One-sided Fi is the attitude: "All other people are amoral",
    I guess.
    A one-sided base function should still be nuanced and well-functioning. What you wrote here sounds more like inferior/suggestive Ti. Or maybe inferior Fe. The problem is that the inferior function also creates an attitude, so one has to distinguish it from the base function. Jung has written so much about this, that I'd rather not say much more.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  31. #31
    persimmonism's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    769
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Tallmo
    I'm not always very rigorous in the way I understand or explain things so I quite appreciate the "anality" actually.

    @Lesri
    Give me some time to absorb everything you said as I don't have time to fully reply right now, but I really appreciate some of your points especially on Ni. About your typing, I won't pretend to know more about you than you yourself, and I'm actually agreeing with you on LSI, especially based on many of the points you wrote =) i'm really happy you found your type, also. actually, you kind of remind me of another LSI who used to be on the forum, and don't worry about not being a "stereotypical" LSI, i think with almost 8 billion humans there's plenty enough of type variation.

    "but at the same time I cannot be "good" and intuitive if I'm not NF"
    interestingly enough, I feel like on Socionics forums (as opposed to MBTI forums) there is actually a positive bias towards Sensing types.
    Soc/Sp/Sx ~ 4w5 1w9 7w6

  32. #32
    persimmonism's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    769
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't think I agree. If we take Ne bases for example, I can sometimes see them use it in isolation, in a "pure" form, without creative function. Then when the creative function is also used, the person seems more present and productive.

    Also, by introspection, it's easy for me to only observe Si. With Si+Fe comes judgement, it gets different then.
    I might be wrong, but I suspect Winnie may have meant that humans do always use IE in varied combinations in the sense that e.g. Si base is always accompanied by Ne suggestive, rather than e.g. Si base occurs with its creative
    Soc/Sp/Sx ~ 4w5 1w9 7w6

  33. #33
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    3,827
    Mentioned
    289 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    I might be wrong, but I suspect Winnie may have meant that humans do always use IE in varied combinations in the sense that e.g. Si base is always accompanied by Ne suggestive, rather than e.g. Si base occurs with its creative
    But is that so? I haven't noticed it. Si and Ne are opposites. If I focus on Si then there is just Si and no intuition. In everyday life I am somewhere in-between and some (infantile) Ne is also present. But it doesn't have to be all the time.

    In some sense it might be true though. Jung said that if you move too far away from the inferior function, and just stay too much in the base, then the inferior function will take revenge by projection. So now your poor inferior function has turned negative and is everywhere outside of you. This might push you even further away from it and you'll get isolated by the vicious circle of projection. In this sense it is true that you never get rid of the suggestive/inferior.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  34. #34
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't think I agree. If we take Ne bases for example, I can sometimes see them use it in isolation, in a "pure" form, without creative function. Then when the creative function is also used, the person seems more present and productive.
    Intuition completely removed from sensory data? Intuition does not work without any information. Ok, Ne might work based on memorized impressions, but aren't they a part of Si?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The feeling judgement of logical types is inferior.
    Yes, because logical types base their judgement on cause and effect coherence and does not look how different people can be effected in a different way by making decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's not adapted, inefficient, insecure etc.
    Insecure only if somebody values Fe, but is not good at it. Because with valued Ti + Fe you care about group harmony but still want some individual rules in your life. And you have to find a balance between.
    Weak unvalued Fe does not care much about group harmony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    And vice versa: Jung points out that one of the easiest inferior functions to observe is inferior Ti. Blunt, overly negative generalizations. "Everything is just X" "This is nothing but X". I'm sure many of us have heard this from ExE types.
    I doubt that is always the case.
    I know two people which I type as ESE. They are not that way... I know that they are ESE, because I can sense their PoLR Ni,
    They seem to have everything well planed, but they make the impression to me that they are hurried and are willing to change activities every few seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    A one-sided base function should still be nuanced and well-functioning.
    Yes and no. The base and suggestive functions are the ones which are out of balance. And there is not really an unimportend function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Jung has written so much about this, that I'd rather not say much more.
    Ok, I tell you honestly. I didn't read the whole theory of C.G.Jung.
    My whole understanding is based on the definition and placement of the IE.

    What is Ti to me? The believe in principles of cause and effect that are stable and don't change. In contrast to Te, where you adapt the method to cause an effect you want with intention.
    Ti is static, Te is dynamic.

    With Fi you have a stable moral code, either a good or bad one, but you stick to it.
    With Fe you are good at adapting your behaviour to other people... but I guess I don't have to tell you that.

    But... back to the perception fuctions.

    The true nature of Si is not that easy to comprehend for me. I guess it has to do with the personal pleasentness of what I see, hear, smell and taste.
    With strong Si this is more defined, with stronger Ne you are more willing to experiment with different kinds of expierences how pleasant they are.
    And with stronger Ne you are willing to change your own Ti based rules.

    Ne challenges Si in the way that everything you are perciving is only a manifestion of what can be.
    It's like you walk that path every day... lets walk it in an other way, fly, swim, dig a tunnel, jump from tree to tree, to get where you want.
    I hope that sounds not too crazy.

    Si and Ne are not really opposites, they are complementary... like Yin and Yang.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 09-07-2022 at 10:38 PM.

  35. #35
    CR400AF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    LII 5w6-1w9-2w1
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Intuition completely removed from sensory data? Intuition does not work without any information. Ok, Ne might work based on memorized impressions, but aren't they a part of Si?
    Intuition itself is a perceiving function. Why does it has to be worked with data from Si? Also, memory doesn't need to be related to Si. Ne perceives the essence of objects.



    What is Ti to me? The believe in principles of cause and effect that are stable and don't change. In contrast to Te, where you adapt the method to cause an effect you want with intention.
    Ti is static, Te is dynamic.
    "you adapt the method to cause an effect you want with intention" seems to be very comprehensive. Te could be simpler. For instance to believe to experimental results instead of logical deductions.

    With Fi you have a stable moral code, either a good or bad one, but you stick to it.
    With Fe you are good at adapting your behaviour to other people... but I guess I don't have to tell you that.
    IMO Fe ≠ adapting to other people. Fe adapts to atmosphere. It's the internal dynamics of objects. Fi valuers might also adapt to others. For instance he values someone very much (eg. fell in love) and hence he might adapts to her. However, Fi-base types have Fe-ignoring. So as Jung said, "They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic."



    The true nature of Si is not that easy to comprehend for me. I guess it has to do with the personal pleasentness of what I see, hear, smell and taste.
    With strong Si this is more defined, with stronger Ne you are more willing to experiment with different kinds of expierences how pleasant they are.
    IMO it's easier to understand it with Jung's definitions. Si is introverted sensation. So it's oriented toward our collective unconscious instead of the objective objects. For instance, "comfort", "pain" and "tired". Such sensations are a pattern of cognition in our psyche structure, they are common among all races, all nations, all of us. Se, on the other hand, values the sensation decided by the objective objects. For instance, the force needed to push an object is decided by its physical properties.

    Si and Ne are not really opposites, they are complementary... like Yin and Yang.
    I agree with this. Si and Ne are complementary in values hence both of them are either valued or subdued in a person.

  36. #36
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    3,827
    Mentioned
    289 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Intuition completely removed from sensory data? Intuition does not work without any information.
    Anybody can sense things around you. We are not blind or deaf. But sensing as a psychic function is a bit different. Intuition works by surppressing the sensing function and taking in things as extrasensory perception (by the unconscious).

    Ne might work based on memorized impressions, but aren't they a part of Si?
    No, they are not.

    Yes, because logical types base their judgement on cause and effect coherence and does not look how different people can be effected in a different way by making decisions.
    Yes, that can be true. But logical types have unconscious F, and they also use it. I think what you describe here is one-sided T. But balanced logical types use feeling also, although it is not as well-functioning and nuanced as in feeling types. For example, a one-sided LII at a party might just analyze the interaction between people and try to manipulate the situation like a robot. But if he is also in touch with his Fe he might actually enjoy and be part of the party in a more genuine way. But maybe that's what you said in the following:

    Insecure only if somebody values Fe, but is not good at it. Because with valued Ti + Fe you care about group harmony but still want some individual rules in your life. And you have to find a balance between.
    Seems right.

    I doubt that is always the case.
    Not always, of course. But Fe base people can change into inferior Ti, and it's not pretty to watch. I've known some ESEs quite well my whole life or in relationships. I also know some EIE. They are normally very positive and social, but there are moments when they can become the coldest people, totally opposite of how they normally are. You can also check what Jung wrote on this.

    Ok, I tell you honestly. I didn't read the whole theory of C.G.Jung.
    My whole understanding is based on the definition and placement of the IE.
    I recommend it. But it takes some time and effort.

    But... back to the perception fuctions.

    The true nature of Si is not that easy to comprehend for me. I guess it has to do with the personal pleasentness of what I see, hear, smell and taste.
    Not just pleasantness, but any innervation phenomenon. Sensory impression that is not directly related to the object, but developes "away from the objective impact". It can be hard to understand but one just has to take it as a fact that there is an area of sensory impression in the introverted world.

    CR400AF just gave a short, nice description of Si.

    Jung has several pages on Si. Very good descriptions, although they can be a challenge. All online. So there is no lack of information. You can also combine that with his general description on introversion, always useful. Plus there is also good stuff in the section "Recapitulation of introverted irrational types". In addition to that von Franz has some stuff in "Lectures on Jung's typology". It's not as good, but works as an introduction to Si. And of course what Socionics descriptions say. But please forget that part about memory. It's a misunderstanding coming from MBTI.

    Si and Ne are not really opposites, they are complementary... like Yin and Yang.
    Well, I think this is about terminology. They can be opposites. This is the great problem that we are walking around in circles in this forum. They are opposites in a way, because they suppress each other. They are not complementary until the individual has done the work of overcoming the opposites. It's about the problem of opposites and how to overcome them to reach wholeness.

    It's similar with the shadow. It is in a way opposite to whom you identify as. But if you integrate it it becomes complementary, and will make you more whole. Maybe things can be opposite or complementary depending on how you look at it, or deal with it.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 09-08-2022 at 06:27 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  37. #37
    Shazaam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Lamp
    TIM
    AB-IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,001
    Mentioned
    616 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'll try to explain it as simplistic as possible cuz I really don't think it's that complicated- ppl have criticized me before and said I oversimplified things too much but honestly if a child can't understand socionics than it's no good (like what bg said) You then can work on understanding more complicated things but if ur still confused on the elementary stuff u won't get very far.

    What intuition is? Well, you daydream a lot. If ur some extroverted NT person - u will share with others ur insights a lot more and they will often be more down to earth and practical depending on ur level of mental health, neurotypical-ness and autism etc. (and like how ILEs dual seek Si anyway) Introverted and intuitive feelers are often quite different than extroverted and intuitive thinkers etc.

    3rd grade teacher used to harshly yell at me to stop daydreaming so much. She would also defend me from bullies, so I didn't completely dislike her- but she wouldn't let me just stare out the window and ponder a lot like I wanted to. She had Exxj energy.

    Ever since I was a new born baby I just kinda sat there and stared out into space. Somebody linked Ni to being like that game of thrones character Bran who saw things - not a bad description. It's Ni in a very over the top way, since ppl will have mixture of other things going on. And just because I have the insight of something doesn't mean I will necessarily share it, maybe I'm trying to spare somebody's feelings etc. Logical type people won't care as much about that and might blabber on more.

    I dream about more fantastical things I guess being IEI. Just doing real world things and getting my hands dirty doesn't really do it for me- for some reason I always shy away from that compared to just thinking and dreaming a lot, then when I do do something & put the correct effort - it tends to come off rather shiny and narcissistically perfect.

    U do just know things without experiencing them. Jung talked about it before - something about how intuitive people could better guess how many seagulls were in the sky or some shit like that? I don't remember the exact study but I remember reading something like that...

    I knew my mom was gonna slip and fall on the ice and be hurt one day etc. I know when a person is angry enough to act on it and have a huge meltdown when other people have tried to sugar coat this- u basically survive life either casting Straight Man-aga or ******-aga - one is getting ur hands dirty & fixing tangible things in the moment, the other is properly evading and avoiding bad things before they even happen because ur so good at sensing when they do happen. In the world's history, most gay men were like the witches who live in cavern and sensed when shit was about to go down and u could go visit them if u wanted to know.

    I don't like being forced to get involved like Exxjs and Exxps tend to not like being forced to evade.

  38. #38
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,675
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Tallmo
    I guess I asked a question having wrong expectations and I didn't express my intentions in an understandable way.
    But sometimes I expierence that I don't find proper words that can express exactly what I want to say.
    Looks like I'm foreign language dyslexic, or something like that.

    I asked myself they question why the answer to the question of post #1 "How to define intuition?" wasn't "Read what C.G. Jung has written about it. Case closed."
    Obviously because Lesri has stated that he knows the texts of Jung already, and they were not that helpful for him.

    I'd expected an explanation like @End did. And description how somebody expierence a cognitive function for themself.
    Many years ago a teacher said to use school kids in a class room: "If you can't explain something in your own words than you didn't understand the content or meaning."

    I expected a description from somebody who has Si as concious function to indentify in what way my perception is influenced by that function.
    Even it is an unconcious function for my I react to it because it is a valued function for me.

    The description of Si by C.G. Jung seems so abstract for me, I guess it has been an unconcious function for him either.

    Reading texts from C.G. Jung is like clashing introverted judgement for me. I'm pretty sure his writing is based on Ti + Intuition.
    Ti is subjective, so it's somewhat difficult for me to understand his reasoning.
    100 years old writing style of human science doesn't make understanding easier for me.


    I wonder in what scenarios I've used Ne in pure form for a longer period.

    Socionics theory says that everybody have two perception and two judgement function as concious function.

    Which means either Se and Ne or Si and Ni as concious function.

    So the perception is one-sided. Either total extraverted or introverted.
    There is no extraverted and introverted concious mixed perception.

    So it's reading from to same sheet of a paper, but each of us can only see one side of that paper.

    I'd just wanted to identify and verify what cognitive functions are concious functions for me, and the remaining functions are my unconcious functions.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 09-11-2022 at 09:59 PM.

  39. #39
    CR400AF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    LII 5w6-1w9-2w1
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    @Tallmo
    I expected a description from somebody who has Si as concious function to indentify in what way my perception is influenced by that function.
    Even it is an unconcious function for my I react to it because it is a valued function for me.

    The description of Si by C.G. Jung seems so abstract for me, I guess it has been an unconcious function for him either.

    Reading texts from C.G. Jung is like clashing introverted judgement for me. I'm pretty sure his writing is based on Ti + Intuition.
    Ti is subjective, so it's somewhat difficult for me to understand his reasoning.
    IMO You need to study Jung's fundamental definitions on introversion, extraversion and projection. At first I also think Jung's texts are very hard to understand. Probably due to the stereotype such that Jung's texts are awkward, I don't really read them carefully. Then one day I refered to a PerC post when discussing Si and Tallmo pointed it out that the post I mentioned is flawed. Then I decided to re-read Jung and finally I think I understood it.

    Tallmo also has a post on how to discover Si: Si - how to discover it (the16types.info)

  40. #40
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,412
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ne and Ni are different ways of generating possibilities. Ne generates them laterally, in a way that doesn't exclude other possibilities, so breadthwise and in a way that imbues what currently exists with more potential. Ni generates them in a mutually exclusive way, and in particular exclusive of what exists currently, so depthwise and in a way that creates desire for some vision or goal or ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    - What about Ti and Ni?
    Does Ni perceives connections between things while Ti categorizes these informations?
    Ti categorizes things, yes. You can say it works with existing information that is present and apparent rather than generating something new.

    How to understand if I value more Ti than Ni and vice versa? (Higher dimensionality for Ti respect to Ni, for exemple)
    I think this is not the right question to ask, rational and irrational elements are mostly orthogonal. Consider whether you value Ne or Ni more.

    If a person concentrate on the sensations he felt and images he saw during his dreams, it is more a sensing or intuitive thing?
    Dreams are intuitive information to begin with and particularly Ni.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •