ESI-LIE Dualization Process

[Adam Strange]

What a heart-f...and mind-f$&* to see your older dual messing up with your non-identical mom.
What both of them need from each other is friendship, not romance....but....that's just (Meme volume increase) MY OPINION!!"

I'm convinced that every ITR has an optimum interaction distance, at which both participants derive the maximum benefits with the minimum pain.

Further away, you're not getting enough. Too close, and bad things happen.

Duals have the closest ultimate interaction distance, but they have a "repulsion field" around them, caused by the appearance of great social-role differences. If they can push through this field, then they will usually fall into a full attraction field.

[Irene Add]

I'm convinced that every ITR has an optimum interaction distance, at which both participants derive the maximum benefits with the minimum pain.

Further away, you're not getting enough. Too close, and bad things happen.

Duals have the closest ultimate interaction distance, but they have a "repulsion field" around them, caused by the appearance of great social-role differences. If they can push through this field, then they will usually fall into a full attraction field.

I suspect it is confidence and health that allows the intriguing differences to seem like a good fit

[Irene Add]

To me, it’s a matter of not shitting where I eat. In this scenario, I would consider both places where I eat, so in the end I just wind up shitting myself lol

That's the biggest laugh I've laughed yet this new year

Heart

[Adam Strange]

What do you talk about with ESIs that is so interesting ? I honestly feel pretty boring, especially to thinking dom types and intuitives in general. I had a LII roomate last year and I was really boring to her. I think my life is quite grounded and that does indeed put many people off. You would think the opposite that many people would prefer it because it's more "relatable" but actually not really. I just like... exist... read a book, play a game, help mom because she can't control herself and does too many things, go for a walk, talk with my brother, go shopping. There's nothing to talk about, there's nothing extraordinary here. From new things I recently did, I tried to teach myself how to play tennis lol. Of course just by picking up a ball and smashing with the tennis racket. Who has time to actually train with a professional and learn actual moves ?

In comprasion that LII girl was amazing, she has a really bright future as an engineer or maybe a game designer. I feel she can be whatever she wants to be, it's amazing haha. She spend everyday tinkering with some strange... contraption (?) and she was learning programming language all on her own. I asked her if she isn't tired of it and she said no because this is really fun for her. That's a person someone could probably talk hours with, if she would want to, she often didn't sadly. Not with me at least haha.

When I'm with an ESI, we talk about anything that comes to mind. Life itself is a challenge and we don't have to make up extra problems to be entertained. Life is hard enough.

I know a lot of LIEs, and the one who is most similar to myself, an LIE-Te who is equally well-off and does very similar things as I do but is completely unaware that people have personalities, once gave me some relationship advice.

A little background on him first. He's an old-school, world-renowned Russian, incredibly intelligent and working for a university, and he is politically distrustful of politicians but he loves Stalin. So he doesn't do much deep thinking about people, or morals. He was married in Russia and had a kid there, but left when he could, and divorced his wife. He then married his graduate student, a brilliant LII. And they fight all the time.

His advice to me was that I should marry a smart woman, "because after a while, you run out of stories".

Apparently, to him, being in a relationship means entertaining the other person with personal stories, until you run out of them, and then the trouble starts.

You can be really smart and really stupid at the same time. Let me be clear: I like this guy. He and I are really close to being the same person, but the difference between us is that I try to look for deep causes for things that happen to me and the world, and he doesn't. He assigns a quick reason for why things go wrong, and that's that. No testing, no matching cause to effect, no nothing.

I sometimes wonder how much of that I do, too. Maybe my entire Socionics journey is just a way to assign a simple reason to my relationship problems. But I digress.

What the LIE doesn't realize is that a Dual doesn't need to be entertained. A Dual is composed of all the parts of you that you had to leave behind when you first had to deal with the world that you encountered, because our brains are bandwidth-limited. We can only bring so much to the table at any one time, and we have to make choices.
Finding those left-behind parts again in another person is like regaining the use of a limb. You don't have to entertain your left arm to appreciate what it does for you.

[Irene Add]

Ah yes, well, speaking from experience, I’ve always been hesitant to introduce my IRL friends to online ones. or introduce friends to each other in general. It’s the weak Fi. I’ve had many relationships that my parents didn’t even know about. A guy I was dating a few months ago asked what my friends thought about a disagreement we were having, and my response was that my friends didn’t even know he existed (which is harsh now that I’m hearing it said, but it’s also the truth.) I’m just a private person in general.

Someone confronted me in pain because they thought I was hiding them. We both travelled for work, and I wasn't interested in what my family thought of them. I remember years later and after a break up, they met my relatives and treated it like a holy experience ....? It confused me. I hadn't at all meant to slight them


Another partner misprocessed our breakup as due to my relative's opinion. I was baffled at the idea my relative's perception would matter to me. I was pointing out we were illsuited for reasons my relatives didn't consider.

My relationships are so independent, in my mind, from any relative's input. Perhaps I'm naive.
Also, my reasoning was, until I consider a partner family, why introduce them to any relatives? Perhaps I was missing something

[Irene Add]

.
that a Dual doesn't need to be entertained. A Dual is composed of all the parts of you that you had to leave behind when you first had to deal with the world that you encountered, because our brains are bandwidth-limited. We can only bring so much to the table at any one time, and we have to make choices.
Finding those left-behind parts again in another person is like regaining the use of a limb. You don't have to entertain your left arm to appreciate what it does for you.

This is my view, as well

[Adam Strange]

When I was a teenager, I watched a performance of "Funny Girl", in which an ESI dancer, Fanny, meets an LIE gambler, Mr. Arnstein.

At one point, the ESI brings the gambler home to meet her mother, Rose, and the gambler is invited to play a low-stakes poker game. As he sits down to play,

Rose: I think he's played a game
of poker before, that Mr. Arnstein.
The way he looks to home.

Fanny: He's a gentleman. a
A gentleman fits in any place.

Rose: A sponge fits in any place.

Rose: To me, when a person's a stranger,
they should act a little strange.


This conversation struck me like a thunderbolt. Arnstein felt at home with Fanny. He wasn't acting strange at all.

All my life, I've felt like a stranger, except when I'm around ESIs.

[Woodland Spirit]

What a heart-f...and mind-f$&* to see your older dual messing up with your non-identical mom.
What both of them need from each other is friendship, not romance....but....that's just (Meme volume increase) MY OPINION!!"

Not really ? I don't find him attractive at all, he's actually a really boring and sad old man. So it's not a problem. I'm just watching him to make sure he has no ill intentions. Right now he's not doing anything wrong so it's okay. I'm highly neutral towards him because he's really bland. Soon I'm going back to college, and I'm actually happy she has someone she can call at 3 AM to get help with literally anything, she deserves it and I'm not gonna judge her for it. She's my mom, not my friend so... weird to police your own parent about their personal life and relationships.

[Irene Add]

Not really ? I don't find him attractive at all, he's actually a really boring and sad old man. So it's not a problem. I'm just watching him to make sure he has no ill intentions. Right now he's not doing anything wrong so it's okay. I'm highly neutral towards him because he's really bland. Soon I'm going back to college, and I'm actually happy she has someone she can call at 3 AM to get help with literally anything, she deserves it and I'm not gonna judge her for it. She's my mom, not my friend so... weird to police your own parent about their personal life and relationships.

You made me wonder if there is something policing in my analyzing them as ill-fitting and saying it. I'm the kind of friend who likes being woken at 3am for help, and I'd be relieved if a family member had that in a friend.

To self:Is it my phrasing or...is there something untoward in my approach to this? I should figure this out

Update: I have close generations over here, and we all date across age ranges, so clocking relative's sig others as objectively attractive is pretty normal over here

Update: to me, calling a a psychological recipe ill suited for romantic pairing is just like pointing out somethings don't constitute a meal.If you just want to use whatever is at hand, great, but the combo, it isn't a meal, and it isn't going to work like a meal.

[Woodland Spirit]

When I was a teenager, I watched a performance of "Funny Girl", in which an ESI dancer, Fanny, meets an LIE gambler, Mr. Arnstein.

At one point, the ESI brings the gambler home to meet her mother, Rose, and the gambler is invited to play a low-stakes poker game. As he sits down to play,

Rose: I think he's played a game
of poker before, that Mr. Arnstein.
The way he looks to home.

Fanny: He's a gentleman. a
A gentleman fits in any place.

Rose: A sponge fits in any place.

Rose: To me, when a person's a stranger,
they should act a little strange.


This conversation struck me like a thunderbolt. Arnstein felt at home with Fanny. He wasn't acting strange at all.

All my life, I've felt like a stranger, except when I'm around ESIs.

I didn't watch this movie so I don't really understand in which way they felt more or less as stranger.

[Woodland Spirit]

This is my view, as well

Entertained is maybe a wrong word. You simply have to be useful to your dual.

[Woodland Spirit]

You made me wonder if there is something policing in my analyzing them as ill-fitting and saying it. I'm the kind of friend who likes being woken at 3am for help, and I'd be relieved if a family member had that in a friend.

To self:Is it my phrasing or...is there something untoward in my approach to this? I should figure this out

Update: I have close generations over here, and we all date across age ranges, so clocking relative's sig others as objectively attractive is pretty normal over here

It's not a thing in my country, so it's nothing wrong that you think like this if you have different culture. I personally treat old man as an old man, and my family members as family members. We don't comment on our attractiveness and rarely date out of age range.

[Adam Strange]

I didn't watch this movie so I don't really understand in which way they felt more or less as stranger.

Haven't you ever visited someone at their house for the first time and felt that they, or their family, were strange beyond knowing? I always felt this way about my Alpha cousins. My Delta mother had no problem with them, but I'm on the opposite side of the Quadra table from Alphas, and my cousins always felt like aliens to me.

I'm sure that I looked like an alien to them, too.

I've learned from this forum that Alphas see Gammas as "lizard people." It's because Gammas don't have valued Fe, and so Alphas can't read any emotions, or humanity, from our eyes.

[Irene Add]

Entertained is maybe a wrong word. You simply have to be useful to your dual.

Mmmm..I feel in awe of ESI, too, and that means they entertain me

[Woodland Spirit]

Someone confronted me in pain because they thought I was hiding them. We both travelled for work, and I wasn't interested in what my family thought of them. I remember years later and after a break up, they met my relatives and treated it like a holy experience ....? It confused me. I hadn't at all meant to slight them


Another partner misprocessed our breakup as due to my relative's opinion. I was baffled at the idea my relative's perception would matter to me. I was pointing out we were illsuited for reasons my relatives didn't consider.

My relationships are so independent, in my mind, from any relative's input. Perhaps I'm naive.
Also, my reasoning was, until I consider a partner family, why introduce them to any relatives? Perhaps I was missing something

I also don't think it's my friends or relatives business who I would date. I might introduce someone to close and trusted people if I want to, but I don't have to. It's my life and not their business. People often make it some kind of a big deal when really it's not. Reminds me of some kind of reddit post where a girl asked if she's an asshole for not telling her roomate know she has a boyfriend. I thought... girl, obviously not, it's your private life. To my suprise most comments called her the AH, and said it's super creepy and weird to have secrets like this from a roomate ? Like... I don't understand why her roomate needs to know this but mmmkay.

[Adam Strange]

Entertained is maybe a wrong word. You simply have to be useful to your dual.

Useful, yes, but you are useful to your Duals when you are naturally doing the things that you are best at doing, and would do anyway. And vice-versa.

Imagine just being yourself, and having someone like you JUST AS YOU ARE. This is why you should be yourself when meeting a Dual. If you are acting like someone else, they won’t like you as much.

The only exception to this is when your Dual doesn’t have any previous experience with your type. In that case, you are going to look really, really different from any of their friends, and so you might want to suppress some of your more “out there” characteristics, until they can decide that, yes, you are not crazy or harmful, and in fact are pretty awesome.

[Woodland Spirit]

Haven't you ever visited someone at their house for the first time and felt that they, or their family, were strange beyond knowing? I always felt this way about my Alpha cousins. My Delta mother had no problem with them, but I'm on the opposite side of the Quadra table from Alphas, and my cousins always felt like aliens to me.

I'm sure that I looked like an alien to them, too.

I've learned from this forum that Alphas see Gammas as "lizard people." It's because Gammas don't have valued Fe, and so Alphas can't read any emotions, or humanity, from our eyes.

Oh yes now I understand. Most people in my moms family are alphas and I always felt strange with them. They feel like aliens to me and I definitely feel exactly like a soulless lizard to them. When my alpha cousin ̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ comes into our house to visit me and my bro both just say hi and go far away from her. Especially that she expects me to babysit her 3 kids and I'm not properly equipped in any way to handle this task. She thinks I'm absolutely awful and just plain strange for declining such kind offer.

[spacious]

Hi, spacious. Thanks for reposting my post. I went back to edit it (The "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE" part, because that is not really true. I have a ton of LIE friends, and some have been friends for thirty years), and I found that the excellent Gulenko Meme thread was closed.

What did Zero mean by "monotone" communication with her Duals? Personally, I've never noticed that in my interactions with ESIs. I've seen it with LIEs, because LIEs only want to talk about money and meetings and business and shit, but I've never been bored with conversations with ESIs.

i think it has to do with the limit to understanding each other fully and also with a great deal of familiarity, which obviously i have in family life. An IEI who has been with an SLE for a long time now made a post here once about the sort of boredom she got to with her dual partner once, and I think that is a phenomenon, but you might not experience it until youve had a lot of exposure to each other. It's like 'wow, this person behaves and thinks how I would want someone to behave (in the sense that you expect someone to think like an Identical or a Dual -- as Bethanyclaire/Dianacatrionia hypothesized recently), where else to go from here...?' it's like there's a peacefulness and sometimes you actually want to stir things up a bit. I mean, 'no couple is an island' (social networks paper), we need people other than a partner. I believe. Some (like some LII I know) seem to function quite well based primarily on a partnership. With my limited relship experience, I think having other people who KNOW ABOUT your relship can be reaaally helpful for 'reaffirming' it to you. A friend told me I did this for her and her relship, both introverts. Not sure if this makes sense and that's okay... it's only one small piece of the overall picture that I'm speaking to here.

update: i see the last sentence of your post now. Haha. I think boredom with your identical is a different thing, and also valid/true/a thing. Hmmm....

[spacious]

Christmas is very tought to survive with her and that's why I had such a long break here on the forums lol... For example she told me to decorate the christmas tree. So I did. She later comes screaming at me that the way I decorated is wrong. She made a whole drama about how I can't decorate christmas trees properly. I didn't know what I did wrong, I tried to inspire myself with some photos from pinterest and tried my best to work with whatever decorations we had. Apparently there are some silent unspoken rules to decorating christmas trees and homes in general during christmas. Which is something I personally don't understand because for me things are pretty when I consider them pretty myself. For her things are pretty when they are socially appropriate. Not because she values traditions ( she doesn't ) but because she wants to show off to some distant family that we have an amazing christmas tree. She also forced me to do full make up on christmas even when I told her I don't want to because this will absolutely cause an acne breakout (and it did...), she didn't want to hear about it. She wants to make an inpact on people, she wants to be a leader, she wants to climb the social hierarchy and show off herself and her family. She hates mine and my brothers individualism. When you call her out for this stupid behavior which me and my brother often do, she of course tells us that it's not true, she's just herself and she doesn't care about people at all.

@Woodland Spirit (great username btw, I may've already said so), welcome back, I support and respect taking long breaks from here when needed, I also have an Fe-dom mother (ESE) and I love having a fellow ESI on the forum, YEAH❕that's my brief contribution for now❕👋👋✌🏻

[spacious]

She talked with a lot of people on discord voice chats, and played many multiplayer games with them, she wasn't exactly not social. I was more of a hermit than her. I absolutely adore video games and wanted to play stardew valley with her and her group of friends but she really did not want to play nor add me to their discord server. It was kinda awkward to hear them play and talk, as we were literally in the same room like 1 meter/ 3 feet, from each other. I felt exactly this, she was kinda prickly, not a bad person exactly, just eccentric. It's sad I probably missed on potential ILI or LIE friend because of it but... oh well.

YES! I’m more hermity than INTx friends of mine, except that I do need contact with people and to be gently encouraged to try doing new things… AHHHHHHHHHH. A former roommate of mine who’s IEI left the house more than I did. I think the low intuition + not knowing how to interpret or make sense of the situations I was in, I would just stay in… a lot… this is during the PhD. I’m amazed by how LII I know will go to events, they’ll GO TO THE LIBRARY AT 8 AM. I… wow. I create more distance between myself and others than they do. They might not talk to people much when they do go out, but they go. I’m like wow. You’re adventurous, in my eyes.

Edit: I later learned that not feeling cozy or comfortable at home led the LII to go out like that, ie library at 8am. They didn’t know how to create a cozy, comfortable situation for themselves at home. I’m a master of that. So our issues are different, for sure. Besides all being introverted (not to call that an “issue”!)

[Woodland Spirit]

YES! I’m more hermity than INTx friends of mine, except that I do need contact with people and to be gently encouraged to try doing new things… AHHHHHHHHHH. A former roommate of mine who’s IEI left the house more than I did. I think the low intuition + not knowing how to interpret or make sense of the situations I was in, I would just stay in… a lot… this is during the PhD. I’m amazed by how LII I know will go to events, they’ll GO TO THE LIBRARY AT 8 AM. I… wow. I create more distance between myself and others than they do. They might not talk to people much when they do go out, but they go. I’m like wow. You’re adventurous, in my eyes.

Edit: I later learned that not feeling cozy or comfortable at home led the LII to go out like that, ie library at 8am. They didn’t know how to create a cozy, comfortable situation for themselves at home. I’m a master of that. So our issues are different, for sure. Besides all being introverted (not to call that an “issue”!)

Yep, it's true for me too. Lots of introverts I saw that were silent loners, and even the most hermity had some loyal friend circle that they met maybe once a week. I create much more distance, and I also dislike people barging into my personal space. Also intuitives just know what to do. I rarely left the house for same reason. I don't know what can happen, or I'm scared something horrible is going to happen, I don't see potential in things that don't have ,,a good decision" written very clearly on it with bold letters. Very often those things that do clearly say "it's a good decision" isn't a good decision for me and it leaves me just feeling even more powerless over my fate.

I think the best example are college studying groups or some organizations, everybody tells you to join them. Main reason is gaining friends + "skills", which of course doesn't mean actual knowledge that would help you in various jobs, it's just... light group work and networking. Those things are 100% alpha, always. With few deltas and betas. Also there's no actual organisation there, you would ask them what you can help them with, exactly. They just say oh whatever you can. You're walking from person to person trying to find someone in charge to tell you what to do... there's nobody in charge.

They all just "do things", often at the last moment because everyone procrastinated, because there's no actual plan here just people goofing around. This is... stressful. These groups have both introverts and extroverts there and some people just seem to actually thrive in this kind of environment. Introverts it's usually EIIs and SEIs from my experience, they go there, sit, do nothing, smile, chat a bit and they are having time of their life. I can't, I'm sorry I can't just spend an hour of my life acting silly with strangers. We're either doing something or I'm out.

I require someone standing next to me with a whip and telling me exactly what to do or encourage me to do something, I just won't do anything without a person like this, because I don't know what I should do. I usually asked if I can draw something or make a poster because I know photoshop. I did something artsy, but I didn't really gain any new friends or learn anything new. Doing new things is important for ESI to grow and develop as a person and often I felt these kind of groups, or school in general don't offer that.

Meanwhile that LII girl never left her room and she has bunch of friends, and recently I saw her with a bf on a walk. Intuitives just know what precisely to do to actually succeed. She didn't need to go here or there, try this or that, talk with this or that person, she somehow knew her silly discord friends were enough and had potential and turns out they were.

When it comes to being cozy I like having access to different colored lights with different intensity, something like those LED tapes. I like clean pretty furniture, I like when colors are nicely selected to all match, also theme, you need a theme for... honestly perhaps even a whole house if you want it all super cozy a nice to look at. Dorm rooms are pretty souless, they look like prison cells, usually all white, with very old furniture. Guess who didn't care ? LII. She told me she has lived in dorms for most of her life and she doesn't mind, so maybe it was because of it. I think for her, the cozy and comfortable space was her computer, her games, her discord friends. That's why she didn't have to go anywhere, she felt comfortable already.

[Adam Strange]

Yep, it's true for me too. Lots of introverts I saw that were silent loners, and even the most hermity had some loyal friend circle that they met maybe once a week. I create much more distance, and I also dislike people barging into my personal space. Also intuitives just know what to do. I rarely left the house for same reason. I don't know what can happen, or I'm scared something horrible is going to happen, I don't see potential in things that don't have ,,a good decision" written very clearly on it with bold letters. Very often those things that do clearly say "it's a good decision" isn't a good decision for me and it leaves me just feeling even more powerless over my fate.

I think the best example are college studying groups or some organizations, everybody tells you to join them. Main reason is gaining friends + "skills", which of course doesn't mean actual knowledge that would help you in various jobs, it's just... light group work and networking. Those things are 100% alpha, always. With few deltas and betas. Also there's no actual organisation there, you would ask them what you can help them with, exactly. They just say oh whatever you can. You're walking from person to person trying to find someone in charge to tell you what to do... there's nobody in charge.

They all just "do things", often at the last moment because everyone procrastinated, because there's no actual plan here just people goofing around. This is... stressful. These groups have both introverts and extroverts there and some people just seem to actually thrive in this kind of environment. Introverts it's usually EIIs and SEIs from my experience, they go there, sit, do nothing, smile, chat a bit and they are having time of their life. I can't, I'm sorry I can't just spend an hour of my life acting silly with strangers. We're either doing something or I'm out.

I require someone standing next to me with a whip and telling me exactly what to do or encourage me to do something, I just won't do anything without a person like this, because I don't know what I should do. I usually asked if I can draw something or make a poster because I know photoshop. I did something artsy, but I didn't really gain any new friends or learn anything new. Doing new things is important for ESI to grow and develop as a person and often I felt these kind of groups, or school in general don't offer that.

Meanwhile that LII girl never left her room and she has bunch of friends, and recently I saw her with a bf on a walk. Intuitives just know what precisely to do to actually succeed. She didn't need to go here or there, try this or that, talk with this or that person, she somehow knew her silly discord friends were enough and had potential and turns out they were.

When it comes to being cozy I like having access to different colored lights with different intensity, something like those LED tapes. I like clean pretty furniture, I like when colors are nicely selected to all match, also theme, you need a theme for... honestly perhaps even a whole house if you want it all super cozy a nice to look at. Dorm rooms are pretty souless, they look like prison cells, usually all white, with very old furniture. Guess who didn't care ? LII. She told me she has lived in dorms for most of her life and she doesn't mind, so maybe it was because of it. I think for her, the cozy and comfortable space was her computer, her games, her discord friends. That's why she didn't have to go anywhere, she felt comfortable already.

"The ESI will make the entire house her own."

Fortunately, and complimentary, LIEs will be fine with this. Their Si-PoLR means that they aren't confident in choosing furnishings. And this is exactly why I hired an ESI to decorate my house. She chooses, I pay, we're both happy with the deal. Plus, we share Gamma tastes.

[spacious]

"The ESI will make the entire house her own."

Fortunately, and complimentary, LIEs will be fine with this. Their Si-PoLR means that they aren't confident in choosing furnishings. And this is exactly why I hired an ESI to decorate my house. She chooses, I pay, we're both happy with the deal. Plus, we share Gamma tastes.

my dad said i need someone who will say 'yes, dear' when i say i want to do something. lol

[Adam Strange]

I have an embarrassing weakness, which is reading YA novels. Hey, 1D Fi is just like being a thirteen-year-old, right?

Anyway, I read a lot of science fiction, and I'm interested in the internal workings of the ESI mind, so when all three coincide, it's a bonus.

I picked up this sci-fi novel at the library, titled "Full Speed to a Crash Landing", and if that doesn't sound ESI to you, you haven't been paying attention.

Spoiler tag, because -quotes from the book-.

Chapter One sets up the heroine inside a destroyed spaceship, and her suit is running out of air. Fortunately, there is a large spaceship right nearby, which she calls and berates for being late to rescue her. They open a hatch, she jumps across, and just as she arrives, she passes out from lack of oxygen.

Chapter Two, is where she meets the crew. When she revives, she is surrounded by several people. There is the Nurse, whom the heroine instantly likes a lot, the female Captain who is a Planner with a hard face (LSE?), some guy on one side of the captain who has broad shoulders, big muscles, is a little jumpy, eyes darting around looking for danger (SLE?), and a guy on the captain's other side with "unkempt hair. Average size, average build. Totally forgettable. Except for the sharpest, clearest hazel eyes I've ever seen. I shudder. From the cold air, obviously."

I love YA novels. Lol.

The heroine gets marched to the sick bay for examination, and "behind her, the man who doesn't miss a thing follows. ... "My eyes slowly glide up and down him, and they find nothing at all objectionable. He's so average - height, weight, everything - but there's something about him that tells me he's the most interesting person aboard the ship. After me, obviously. If I had to pick a word to describe him, it'd be trim. But he's got this air about him, like he knows how the whole universe fits together, and that makes me wonder how I might fit into his carefully organized world. Does he have a slot for chaos, or am I going to have to break some stuff to make room on the shelf for me? Either route poses fun and exciting possibilities."

OK, I had to stop at the point where she has to take her spacesuit off in front of the guy. There's only so much I can take at one time. So this isn't Shakespeare, but I like it. Very much like eating too much sugar; it's fun, but you can't go nuts on it.

The heroine displays force in the real world (Se - jump between spaceships), is vulnerable to time issues (Ni - she's running out of oxygen), she likes a guy who knows how things are put together (Te-seeking), and she doesn't mind taking off her clothes in front of him (Aggressor). I'd call that 100% ESI.

When I get some free time, I'm going to read Chapter Three, but only with extreme caution and some shots of insulin nearby.

[Adam Strange]

my dad said i need someone who will say 'yes, dear' when i say i want to do something. lol

Saying "Yes, dear", is easy to do when the other person is good at something and you're not. Just let them do it. Ask them if they need anything to get it done, but don't interfere.

There is another good feature about Duality. Duals work well together.

I first met my ESI-Se interior decorator in a coffee house and discovered that, while I had no experience with anyone who looked remotely like she did, we had a three-hour conversation about art and other things, and the time flew by.

She next invited me over to her house to talk about the art commission. She had a little studio in the horse barn and for some reason, we needed a big sheet of something to serve as a table. We walked outside and saw a stack of 4x8 panels, and without saying one word, went over and picked up a panel and brought it into her studio.
Let me tell you, I had never before experienced the state of integrated flow that enabled us to wordlessly set ourselves a task and accomplish it. It completely blew my mind.

Since then, she and I have moved a lot of furniture in my house, and we can go a long time without needing to speak, because we anticipate what the other person needs and what they want to do.

Interestingly enough, my LSE mother told me that she and her SLI husband (my father) had once, early on, tried to hang wallpaper together. That was the last time they tried to work together.
Also, I did not work well with my SLI ex-wife. I could kind of work with my LSI ex-GF, but it was more a matter of first deciding who was in charge. It was not a collaboration.

[Irene Add]

Yep, it's true for me too. Lots of introverts I saw that were silent loners, and even the most hermity had some loyal friend circle that they met maybe once a week. I create much more distance, and I also dislike people barging into my personal space. Also intuitives just know what to do. I rarely left the house for same reason. I don't know what can happen, or I'm scared something horrible is going to happen, I don't see potential in things that don't have ,,a good decision" written very clearly on it with bold letters. Very often those things that do clearly say "it's a good decision" isn't a good decision for me and it leaves me just feeling even more powerless over my fate.

I think the best example are college studying groups or some organizations, everybody tells you to join them. Main reason is gaining friends + "skills", which of course doesn't mean actual knowledge that would help you in various jobs, it's just... light group work and networking. Those things are 100% alpha, always. With few deltas and betas. Also there's no actual organisation there, you would ask them what you can help them with, exactly. They just say oh whatever you can. You're walking from person to person trying to find someone in charge to tell you what to do... there's nobody in charge.

They all just "do things", often at the last moment because everyone procrastinated, because there's no actual plan here just people goofing around. This is... stressful. These groups have both introverts and extroverts there and some people just seem to actually thrive in this kind of environment. Introverts it's usually EIIs and SEIs from my experience, they go there, sit, do nothing, smile, chat a bit and they are having time of their life. I can't, I'm sorry I can't just spend an hour of my life acting silly with strangers. We're either doing something or I'm out.

I require someone standing next to me with a whip and telling me exactly what to do or encourage me to do something, I just won't do anything without a person like this, because I don't know what I should do. I usually asked if I can draw something or make a poster because I know photoshop. I did something artsy, but I didn't really gain any new friends or learn anything new. Doing new things is important for ESI to grow and develop as a person and often I felt these kind of groups, or school in general don't offer that.

Meanwhile that LII girl never left her room and she has bunch of friends, and recently I saw her with a bf on a walk. Intuitives just know what precisely to do to actually succeed. She didn't need to go here or there, try this or that, talk with this or that person, she somehow knew her silly discord friends were enough and had potential and turns out they were.

When it comes to being cozy I like having access to different colored lights with different intensity, something like those LED tapes. I like clean pretty furniture, I like when colors are nicely selected to all match, also theme, you need a theme for... honestly perhaps even a whole house if you want it all super cozy a nice to look at. Dorm rooms are pretty souless, they look like prison cells, usually all white, with very old furniture. Guess who didn't care ? LII. She told me she has lived in dorms for most of her life and she doesn't mind, so maybe it was because of it. I think for her, the cozy and comfortable space was her computer, her games, her discord friends. That's why she didn't have to go anywhere, she felt comfortable already.

God, I love when ESI write.

This. This right here is what LIE want, imo

[Woodland Spirit]

my dad said i need someone who will say 'yes, dear' when i say i want to do something. lol

LITERALLY SAME !!!

[Irene Add]

LITERALLY SAME !!!

This is the inverse of you or spacious saying you want someone with a whip giving you directions. And, the Socionics lit says ESI,LIE couples prefer directives from each other and to do acts of service.

[Woodland Spirit]

This is the inverse of you or spacious saying you want someone with a whip giving you directions. And, the Socionics lit says ESI,LIE couples prefer directives from each other and to do acts of service.

I mean yeah, but only thing I mean is that my dad (SLI) also said something like this. Don't look too much into it tho, he just doesn't really like women and sometimes liked to say not nice stuff. He definitely said this to be mean and to insult me. He also once said that he pities man that will marry me. When it comes to marriage/ relationships he's like a worse version of me. Me and my dad both desire freedom, but we have completely different view how freedom looks and we need and value different things.

[Irene Add]

I mean yeah, but only thing I mean is that my dad (SLI) also said something like this. Don't look too much into it tho, he just doesn't really like women and sometimes liked to say not nice stuff. He definitely said this to be mean and to insult me. He also once said that he pities man that will marry me. When it comes to marriage/ relationships he's like a worse version of me. Me and my dad both desire freedom, but we have completely different view how freedom looks and we need and value different things.

I'm aghast.

Thank you for telling me


I am passionately jealous of anyone who marries any healthy ESI.

Your dad's behavior is abusive, laughably immature, and pathetic

You deserved so much better

[Echo]

Meanwhile that LII girl never left her room and she has bunch of friends, and recently I saw her with a bf on a walk. Intuitives just know what precisely to do to actually succeed. She didn't need to go here or there, try this or that, talk with this or that person, she somehow knew her silly discord friends were enough and had potential and turns out they were.

When it comes to being cozy I like having access to different colored lights with different intensity, something like those LED tapes. I like clean pretty furniture, I like when colors are nicely selected to all match, also theme, you need a theme for... honestly perhaps even a whole house if you want it all super cozy a nice to look at. Dorm rooms are pretty souless, they look like prison cells, usually all white, with very old furniture. Guess who didn't care ? LII. She told me she has lived in dorms for most of her life and she doesn't mind, so maybe it was because of it. I think for her, the cozy and comfortable space was her computer, her games, her discord friends. That's why she didn't have to go anywhere, she felt comfortable already.

Hmmmm… obviously I don’t know this woman who you’re talking about, but I can tell you that when I was at school I was a loner. making friends isnt naturally easy for LIIs any more than it is for anyone else. Actually, it’s probably much more difficult. my social skills developed much later than a lot of other people’s.

[Woodland Spirit]

Hmmmm… obviously I don’t know this woman who you’re talking about, but I can tell you that when I was at school I was a loner. making friends isnt naturally easy for LIIs any more than it is for anyone else. Actually, it’s probably much more difficult. my social skills developed much later than a lot of other people’s.

Honestly I understand that, not super extroverted either, I can't say I had anything against her or LIIs in general. Some people just aren't compatible and that's just how it is, we both were really different and in some ways incompatible, despite sharing some interests.

[Woodland Spirit]

I'm aghast.

Thank you for telling me


I am passionately jealous of anyone who marries any healthy ESI.

Your dad's behavior is abusive, laughably immature, and pathetic

You deserved so much better

ESIs are very common type imo, in my college we are separated in groups of 20 people and there are two ESIs in my group. Me and other girl I sometimes talk to. In my highschool I also had other ESI in class.

Just look for a woman that is VERY individualistic, quiet, keeps to herself, might often doodle in the notebook something she likes, read, scroll the phone lol, I always doodle animals but I saw ESI who was writing music notes, and one that preffered to note and be laser focused on the class. ESIs can be very different. Ask her about her hobby if it's something practical or grounded, usually : art, music, cinema, literature, theathre, gardening, languages, travelling, any kind of sport, cooking/baking. it's also very likely ESI. It also could be SEI but SEI are really sweet and warm, and you will feel this. ESIs aren't like this for strangers, quite the opposite actually, we're pretty much always doing things for them to profit us. We become better after we trust you tho. You just need to spend enough time with them, for them to see you're not a threat. Also if they seem to really be focused on survival, life, work and money and fear those things at the same time it's definitely ESI.

Can't say that about LIEs, I never met a man my age that would fit LIE description. Suprisingly A LOT of ILEs but LIE ? Nah. Unicorns. I feel like we're living on different planets.

[Woodland Spirit]

When I'm with an ESI, we talk about anything that comes to mind. Life itself is a challenge and we don't have to make up extra problems to be entertained. Life is hard enough.

I know a lot of LIEs, and the one who is most similar to myself, an LIE-Te who is equally well-off and does very similar things as I do but is completely unaware that people have personalities, once gave me some relationship advice.

A little background on him first. He's an old-school, world-renowned Russian, incredibly intelligent and working for a university, and he is politically distrustful of politicians but he loves Stalin. So he doesn't do much deep thinking about people, or morals. He was married in Russia and had a kid there, but left when he could, and divorced his wife. He then married his graduate student, a brilliant LII. And they fight all the time.

His advice to me was that I should marry a smart woman, "because after a while, you run out of stories".

Apparently, to him, being in a relationship means entertaining the other person with personal stories, until you run out of them, and then the trouble starts.

You can be really smart and really stupid at the same time. Let me be clear: I like this guy. He and I are really close to being the same person, but the difference between us is that I try to look for deep causes for things that happen to me and the world, and he doesn't. He assigns a quick reason for why things go wrong, and that's that. No testing, no matching cause to effect, no nothing.

I sometimes wonder how much of that I do, too. Maybe my entire Socionics journey is just a way to assign a simple reason to my relationship problems. But I digress.

What the LIE doesn't realize is that a Dual doesn't need to be entertained. A Dual is composed of all the parts of you that you had to leave behind when you first had to deal with the world that you encountered, because our brains are bandwidth-limited. We can only bring so much to the table at any one time, and we have to make choices.
Finding those left-behind parts again in another person is like regaining the use of a limb. You don't have to entertain your left arm to appreciate what it does for you.

Why does this Russian guy have the same view on dating as me, should I be concerned ? I always thought that being in a relatonship is just a never ending chore, and you always have to put on a mask, pretend you're someone you're not, and entertain that person. Learning socionics was nice and eye opening sometimes, but not gonna hide it, I was kinda dissapointed in being ESI lol. Reading about LIE and ESI-LIE duality is definitely some... experience. Glad I found this forum tho.

[Woodland Spirit]

Useful, yes, but you are useful to your Duals when you are naturally doing the things that you are best at doing, and would do anyway. And vice-versa.

Imagine just being yourself, and having someone like you JUST AS YOU ARE. This is why you should be yourself when meeting a Dual. If you are acting like someone else, they won’t like you as much.

The only exception to this is when your Dual doesn’t have any previous experience with your type. In that case, you are going to look really, really different from any of their friends, and so you might want to suppress some of your more “out there” characteristics, until they can decide that, yes, you are not crazy or harmful, and in fact are pretty awesome.

What characteristics are "out there" ?

Also do LIEs like when ESIs act politely and seriously around them and show they are dependable, or do they like ESIs try to be friendly, chill, smiley, joke a bit, break the ice and not serious but still in a polite way, but also it's just kinda awkward ? I'm asking for a friend.

[Adam Strange]

ESIs are very common type imo, in my college we are separated in groups of 20 people and there are two ESIs in my group. Me and other girl I sometimes talk to. In my highschool I also had other ESI in class.

Just look for a woman that is VERY individualistic, quiet, keeps to herself, might often doodle in the notebook something she likes, read, scroll the phone lol, I always doodle animals but I saw ESI who was writing music notes, and one that preffered to note and be laser focused on the class. ESIs can be very different. Ask her about her hobby if it's something practical or grounded, usually : art, music, cinema, literature, theathre, gardening, languages, travelling, any kind of sport, cooking/baking. it's also very likely ESI. It also could be SEI but SEI are really sweet and warm, and you will feel this. ESIs aren't like this for strangers, quite the opposite actually, we're pretty much always doing things for them to profit us. We become better after we trust you tho. You just need to spend enough time with them, for them to see you're not a threat. Also if they seem to really be focused on survival, life, work and money and fear those things at the same time it's definitely ESI.

Can't say that about LIEs, I never met a man my age that would fit LIE description. Suprisingly A LOT of ILEs but LIE ? Nah. Unicorns. I feel like we're living on different planets.

The bolded text is a good description of ESIs. I also agree that SEIs are "really sweet and warm", but for that reason, I feel like I can't trust them to be strong in difficult times.

LIEs are rare, yes. I don't think I met any until I got to college and they were some of my professors. After I started working, I started meeting more LIEs because they were running the companies that I was working for. Now, I know quite a few LIEs from my professional contacts.
Advice to an ESI for meeting an LIE, or an LIE for meeting an ESI, is to just go where you wouldn't ordinarily go, because your Dual has completely opposite interests than you do.


Examples:
A lot of ESIs are registered nurses. I hate hospitals and try to avoid them whenever possible, but when I'm in a hospital, I meet a lot of ESIs.
ESIs are also into sports, and while I ran track in HS, I don't follow sports at all. I feel awkward at sports events. They are so boring.

LIEs are concerned about future money. ESIs need advice on investing. I met a happy ESI-LIE couple this summer, and when I asked them how they met, the LIE said that he was an investment counselor and she came to him for advice, and the rest happened naturally.

[Adam Strange]

Why does this Russian guy have the same view on dating as me, should I be concerned ?

You and the Russian guy have the same view on dating because neither of you have ever met and talked to a Dual of the opposite sex for an hour. You, because LIEs are rare in the population, and you only start to meet them when you search out the activities in which LIEs live.
He, because he is an intellectual snob and he always wanted a woman who "looked" smart, which is to say, looks rational. Big mistake. It's like being a racist; you mistake the person for the surface impression.

Look at this guy, Brian May: https://star-fleet.fandom.com/wiki/Brian_May
Does he LOOK like he knows calculus? Lol.
I, who have studied ESIs for years, instantly recognized him as an ESI. But would the Russian think that they could be best friends? Not a chance.
Brian May, in addition to being a guitarist for Queen, is an astrophysicist who specializes in interplanetary dust particles.

I always thought that being in a relatonship is just a never ending chore, and you always have to put on a mask, pretend you're someone you're not, and entertain that person. Learning socionics was nice and eye opening sometimes, but not gonna hide it, I was kinda dissapointed in being ESI lol. Reading about LIE and ESI-LIE duality is definitely some... experience. Glad I found this forum tho.

I agree that being in a relationship CAN be a never-ending chore. All of my relationships have been like that to some extent or other, and they got worse with greater ITR distance. But my relationships with ESIs, while not 100.0000% trouble-tree, were the least problematic and they make me feel better than I feel when I'm alone, and that's what we all should be working towards.

One of my favorite songs, written by Brian May. A pre-telling of the movie Interstellar, in 3 minutes, 38 seconds:

[Adam Strange]

Useful, yes, but you are useful to your Duals when you are naturally doing the things that you are best at doing, and would do anyway. And vice-versa.

Imagine just being yourself, and having someone like you JUST AS YOU ARE. This is why you should be yourself when meeting a Dual. If you are acting like someone else, they won’t like you as much.

The only exception to this is when your Dual doesn’t have any previous experience with your type. In that case, you are going to look really, really different from any of their friends, and so you might want to suppress some of your more “out there” characteristics, until they can decide that, yes, you are not crazy or harmful, and in fact are pretty awesome.

What characteristics are "out there" ?

I mentioned suppressing your more "out there" characteristics, because when I first meet an ESI, showing her that I'm an unfeeling asshole right away is a certain turn-off, if she has no experience with LIEs. It almost derailed my relationship with my ESI-Se interior decorator, because she already suspected me of being an axe-murderer (probably because she is fear-based and because she is suspicious by nature and because she was meeting someone who was very, very different from anyone whom she'd previously known.

Let me try to do this in reverse. What would put me off ESIs at first meeting? I'll try to remember what I thought, before I actually met one.
Before I did any research on ESIs (garnered mostly from this forum), I saw them in the environment and invariably thought that they were attractive in a cheap way, overly beautiful and sexy, and completely brainless. How's that for prejudice?
The image that I saw was not that of an intellectual, and since I was not allowing myself to get involved with anyone who would not be as rational as I was (see how misled I was?), I didn't even approach them.

Somehow, I didn't connect my best friend in HS, an ESI astrophysicist, with ESI females.
Well, ESI males and females look a bit different.

I was massively ignorant and was judging ESIs through massive prejudice, which came straight from my family. My entire family was composed of Thinkers and they all looked down on Feelers. When I showed my LII sister a picture of my first ESI GF, she said to me, "If you bring that girl home, we will all disown you." Lol. Well, fuck her opinion.

If an LIE has some feelers in his family, or better yet, an ESI, then he's going to be much more open to dating an ESI. If the LIE has no experience with an ESI, then you are just going to have to talk to him for 30-90 minutes until Duality starts happening, and then you should be good. How can you do that? Try discussing money, or art, or anything that the LIE wants to talk about, and you should be able to rely on Duality impressions to carry you forward.

Also do LIEs like when ESIs act politely and seriously around them and show they are dependable, or do they like ESIs try to be friendly, chill, smiley, joke a bit, break the ice and not serious but still in a polite way, but also it's just kinda awkward ? I'm asking for a friend.

I expect an ESI to be not very friendly when I first meet her. If a woman is too friendly, I put her into the "not for me" category. I tend to joke with ESIs when I first meet them by telling them, "Hey, I'll bet that you have three friends, and two of them are stuffed animals." But ESIs are really loyal to their friends and especially to their family. They are also tolerant of my joking, probably because they are immune to assholes. (They have to be, because their Duals are assholes.)

When I meet an ESI for the first time, I expect her to be interested in the sensory things around her, slightly interested in me (but that's 100% conditional on my not overstepping social boundaries), dressed neatly and tastefully (I love your outfit), practical, skeptical, alert for whether I'm cheap or if I'm willing to quietly spend money on her, guarded, moralistic, sensible, and critical of anything she sees as a moral failing, in anyone.

I don't expect her to be smiley (at least, not at first), or too friendly, or trying hard to be nice (lol). I expect her to be uncompromising in most things but open to suggestions in others. I expect her to be someone who is good at doing things in the real world and who offers practical advice, particularly about people, or about anything which could lead to trouble in the future.

I don't expect ESIs to joke a bit. ESIs really are not stand-up comedians. They do have an ironic sense of humor, but you have to know them for a while before they will try to joke with you this way.

[Echo]

I mentioned suppressing your more "out there" characteristics, because when I first meet an ESI, showing her that I'm an unfeeling asshole right away is a certain turn-off, if she has no experience with LIEs. It almost derailed my relationship with my ESI-Se interior decorator, because she already suspected me of being an axe-murderer (probably because she is fear-based and because she is suspicious by nature and because she was meeting someone who was very, very different from anyone whom she'd previously known.

Let me try to do this in reverse. What would put me off ESIs at first meeting? I'll try to remember what I thought, before I actually met one.
Before I did any research on ESIs (garnered mostly from this forum), I saw them in the environment and invariably thought that they were attractive in a cheap way, overly beautiful and sexy, and completely brainless. How's that for prejudice?
The image that I saw was not that of an intellectual, and since I was not allowing myself to get involved with anyone who would not be as rational as I was (see how misled I was?), I didn't even approach them.

Somehow, I didn't connect my best friend in HS, an ESI astrophysicist, with ESI females.
Well, ESI males and females look a bit different.

I was massively ignorant and was judging ESIs through massive prejudice, which came straight from my family. My entire family was composed of Thinkers and they all looked down on Feelers. When I showed my LII sister a picture of my first ESI GF, she said to me, "If you bring that girl home, we will all disown you." Lol. Well, fuck her opinion.

If an LIE has some feelers in his family, or better yet, an ESI, then he's going to be much more open to dating an ESI. If the LIE has no experience with an ESI, then you are just going to have to talk to him for 30-90 minutes until Duality starts happening, and then you should be good. How can you do that? Try discussing money, or art, or anything that the LIE wants to talk about, and you should be able to rely on Duality impressions to carry you forward.



I expect an ESI to be not very friendly when I first meet her. If a woman is too friendly, I put her into the "not for me" category. I tend to joke with ESIs when I first meet them by telling them, "Hey, I'll bet that you have three friends, and two of them are stuffed animals." But ESIs are really loyal to their friends and especially to their family. They are also tolerant of my joking, probably because they are immune to assholes. (They have to be, because their Duals are assholes.)

When I meet an ESI for the first time, I expect her to be interested in the sensory things around her, slightly interested in me (but that's 100% conditional on my not overstepping social boundaries), dressed neatly and tastefully (I love your outfit), practical, skeptical, alert for whether I'm cheap or if I'm willing to quietly spend money on her, guarded, moralistic, sensible, and critical of anything she sees as a moral failing, in anyone.

I don't expect her to be smiley (at least, not at first), or too friendly, or trying hard to be nice (lol). I expect her to be uncompromising in most things but open to suggestions in others. I expect her to be someone who is good at doing things in the real world and who offers practical advice, particularly about people, or about anything which could lead to trouble in the future.

I don't expect ESIs to joke a bit. ESIs really are not stand-up comedians. They do have an ironic sense of humor, but you have to know them for a while before they will try to joke with you this way.

it depends on experiences I think. When my dad first met my mother, he had recently broken up with a woman who was a bit of a mess. I think she might’ve had mental health problems. I also think she must’ve been another intuitive. Anyway, when he met my mother, he said that he knew immediately that she was the kind of woman he wanted because I think that she seemed like the exact opposite of his ex. sometimes a bad relationship can make you look at people who you normally wouldn’t have considered from a completely different point of view

[Irene Add]

What characteristics are "out there" ?

Also do LIEs like when ESIs act politely and seriously around them and show they are dependable, or do they like ESIs try to be friendly, chill, smiley, joke a bit, break the ice and not serious but still in a polite way, but also it's just kinda awkward ? I'm asking for a friend.

God. Just be you. You're amazing.