ESI-LIE Dualization Process

[Woodland Spirit]

You and the Russian guy have the same view on dating because neither of you have ever met and talked to a Dual of the opposite sex for an hour. You, because LIEs are rare in the population, and you only start to meet them when you search out the activities in which LIEs live.
He, because he is an intellectual snob and he always wanted a woman who "looked" smart, which is to say, looks rational. Big mistake. It's like being a racist; you mistake the person for the surface impression.

Look at this guy, Brian May: https://star-fleet.fandom.com/wiki/Brian_May
Does he LOOK like he knows calculus? Lol.
I, who have studied ESIs for years, instantly recognized him as an ESI. But would the Russian think that they could be best friends? Not a chance.
Brian May, in addition to being a guitarist for Queen, is an astrophysicist who specializes in interplanetary dust particles.



I agree that being in a relationship CAN be a never-ending chore. All of my relationships have been like that to some extent or other, and they got worse with greater ITR distance. But my relationships with ESIs, while not 100.0000% trouble-tree, were the least problematic and they make me feel better than I feel when I'm alone, and that's what we all should be working towards.

One of my favorite songs, written by Brian May. A pre-telling of the movie Interstellar, in 3 minutes, 38 seconds:

You're definitely right. I would also add being raised by EIE into the mix. My mom seems to value hard working and practical / grounded men, she definitely values sensors and thinkers, these are men she just likes the best and she was always telling me to find men like this in my life. I didn't really seem to share her fascination with people that she likes, they are mostly weird to me. My cousin ESE, married LSI / SLE (?) and my mom seems to really like him. ( I don't ). She's also listening to advice from him. She went to the doctor to get something checked out, because he is a fireman and told her about some kind of experience of his friend breaking/spraining something when he fell during training and saying she probably had the same thing ( she did seem to have simmilar injury few months ago, didn't get it checked out, god knows how many things are happening to her :/ ). If I would tell her to go to the doctor she would tell me that " I don't know anything " and would ignore it. Which she did. I can't convince her to do anything Si related and it's honestly almost frustrating to me.

I also want to say that whatever you say about ESIs here would be considered wrong by most people that are into socionics. Because nobody, in any other socionics online space would ever agree or believe you that ESI can be just as much a scientist as they can be an artist. Athlete ? Yes. Artist ? Yes. Scientist ? No. Try to change their mind, they won't believe you.
So I am suprised literally anyone is treating any kind of sensor personality type seriously. I remember writing once that one of things I saw in me, is the older I am the more I start to look kindly at fiction in general. Because when I was younger I didn't see any actual value in things like fantasy or sci-fiction and the more I grow as a person the more I started to see value in things that aren't exactly tied to reality. Still... I got lots of comments saying this is Ne-Si and I'm 100% EII.
In what world EIIs struggle with understanding, valuing fiction, abstract things and imagination? Literally remember some friends wanting to watch " the Hobbit " movie, and I legit like scoffed and said " Nooooooo... ", and Hobbit seems like the most delta thing ever. Just few years ago when you would show me a song from the movie interstellar I wouldn't be able to find much value in it, unless the song itself would be catchy. It definitely helps to have ILI brother but still, many things like these bored me. I would maybe give a movie like this a chance in free time nowadays.

Brian May seems like a good guy, very tallented, I heard that most people who have scientific mind are very good at playing instruments, not sure why, also animal rights activist. Good reminder and lesson to non believers that personality types aren't always stereotypical, and can actually be really diverse, and don't mean that someone wouldn't be tallented in some way. The pure audacity of people saying ESI wouldn't make a good scientist is absolutely vile.

My brother has a friend, and he invited us to play some board games, and maybe D&D and I actually really wanted to play it for some time now, but I also realized that this is like some cruel god mocking me because... activity including larping and doing math ? They were definitely... never enjoyable activites. I mean maths is still horrifying on levels I can't explain. But I seem to value those things a bit more.

[Woodland Spirit]

I mentioned suppressing your more "out there" characteristics, because when I first meet an ESI, showing her that I'm an unfeeling asshole right away is a certain turn-off, if she has no experience with LIEs. It almost derailed my relationship with my ESI-Se interior decorator, because she already suspected me of being an axe-murderer (probably because she is fear-based and because she is suspicious by nature and because she was meeting someone who was very, very different from anyone whom she'd previously known.

Let me try to do this in reverse. What would put me off ESIs at first meeting? I'll try to remember what I thought, before I actually met one.
Before I did any research on ESIs (garnered mostly from this forum), I saw them in the environment and invariably thought that they were attractive in a cheap way, overly beautiful and sexy, and completely brainless. How's that for prejudice?
The image that I saw was not that of an intellectual, and since I was not allowing myself to get involved with anyone who would not be as rational as I was (see how misled I was?), I didn't even approach them.

Somehow, I didn't connect my best friend in HS, an ESI astrophysicist, with ESI females.
Well, ESI males and females look a bit different.

I was massively ignorant and was judging ESIs through massive prejudice, which came straight from my family. My entire family was composed of Thinkers and they all looked down on Feelers. When I showed my LII sister a picture of my first ESI GF, she said to me, "If you bring that girl home, we will all disown you." Lol. Well, fuck her opinion.

If an LIE has some feelers in his family, or better yet, an ESI, then he's going to be much more open to dating an ESI. If the LIE has no experience with an ESI, then you are just going to have to talk to him for 30-90 minutes until Duality starts happening, and then you should be good. How can you do that? Try discussing money, or art, or anything that the LIE wants to talk about, and you should be able to rely on Duality impressions to carry you forward.



I expect an ESI to be not very friendly when I first meet her. If a woman is too friendly, I put her into the "not for me" category. I tend to joke with ESIs when I first meet them by telling them, "Hey, I'll bet that you have three friends, and two of them are stuffed animals." But ESIs are really loyal to their friends and especially to their family. They are also tolerant of my joking, probably because they are immune to assholes. (They have to be, because their Duals are assholes.)

When I meet an ESI for the first time, I expect her to be interested in the sensory things around her, slightly interested in me (but that's 100% conditional on my not overstepping social boundaries), dressed neatly and tastefully (I love your outfit), practical, skeptical, alert for whether I'm cheap or if I'm willing to quietly spend money on her, guarded, moralistic, sensible, and critical of anything she sees as a moral failing, in anyone.

I don't expect her to be smiley (at least, not at first), or too friendly, or trying hard to be nice (lol). I expect her to be uncompromising in most things but open to suggestions in others. I expect her to be someone who is good at doing things in the real world and who offers practical advice, particularly about people, or about anything which could lead to trouble in the future.

I don't expect ESIs to joke a bit. ESIs really are not stand-up comedians. They do have an ironic sense of humor, but you have to know them for a while before they will try to joke with you this way.

Thanks for advice, I do generally act like this more colder variant, but when I get nervous I always mask a lot but since it's not my actual personality it's always awkward and weird as hell because I'm just not very good at it. I am self concious because I heard men absolutely hate " resting bitch face ", and being more serious is also unnatractive and weird. I can't really say I am immune to assholes, might be result of getting bullied, but when someone would make fun of me, or make jokes of me, or generally treat me badly in any way I would definitely completely stop interacting with that person. If someone is just straight up mean for no reason I sometimes hide and cry so nobody will see me being a weak baby lol.

Also I think most people see ESI and SEE as some kind of sexy woman lol. This is something I said in the past reply, and most people in socionics will type anyone ESI or SEE that don't fit this as EII and IEE and it's the stupidest thing ever.

[Woodland Spirit]

God. Just be you. You're amazing.

Thank you haha, I do think it's nice to know what kind of way to act.

[nifl]

God. Just be you. You're amazing.

to express affectionate emotions, especially in a Fe style, so openly to people you don't have a significant relation to is highly uncharacteristic of the type you erroneously believe yourself to be
to play LIE: be cold, even and businesslike. not warm and emotionally inspiring.

i recommend you make a typing thread. you're not LIE, for sure

[Irene Add]

to express affectionate emotions, especially in a Fe style, so openly to people you don't have a significant relation to is highly uncharacteristic of the type you erroneously believe yourself to be
to play LIE: be cold, even and businesslike. not warm and emotionally inspiring.

i recommend you make a typing thread. you're not LIE, for sure

Lie are not cold. Read more.


ILE Aushra about LIE:'Optimistic. He quickly reacts to everything that brings emotions, especially positive. He is as if preprogrammed for rising spirits of his dual (The Guardian) who always looks somewhat scared or angry. He permanently irradiates friendliness, positive emotions, and smiles. He tries to make his partner laugh, shakes and hassles her in all possible ways, until she finally reacts, either positively or negatively, otherwise he will not have information about his condition (of course, in this sentence HE and SHE pronouns may be used vice versa). He likes to relate and to discuss what he has read and heard. It is easy for him to start up a conversation with a person he has never been familiar with.

5. Love for life. He searches permanent and constant human relations. He does not understand very well feelings and attractions of other people; this is why he is careful in this field and is afraid of being funny. '


Fe is easier for us than Fi is.

[fsninetwo]

I also want to say that whatever you say about ESIs here would be considered wrong by most people that are into socionics. Because nobody, in any other socionics online space would ever agree or believe you that ESI can be just as much a scientist as they can be an artist. Athlete ? Yes. Artist ? Yes. Scientist ? No. Try to change their mind, they won't believe you.
So I am suprised literally anyone is treating any kind of sensor personality type seriously. I remember writing once that one of things I saw in me, is the older I am the more I start to look kindly at fiction in general. Because when I was younger I didn't see any actual value in things like fantasy or sci-fiction and the more I grow as a person the more I started to see value in things that aren't exactly tied to reality. Still... I got lots of comments saying this is Ne-Si and I'm 100% EII.

Just giving my 2 cents. ESI-Fi subtype can have quite EII-Fi vibe so it shouldn't be a surprise why people would type you like that.

Related to taking sensor types non-seriously in Socionics it's quite ironic as in real like intuitive types are less taken far less seriously compared to sensors until they have success proof, so it's like a reverse card for sensors to feel what intuitive experience once they stepped to such a heavy intuitive fields like Socionics and other typologies in general. Plus ESI type has a quite a reputation in Socionics for being heavily disliked for being negativistic, judgmental, close-minded, having black-white mentality individuals who can be very pushing, riding moral-high horse and stubborn to change their opinion even when being proved wrong. And unfortunately the reasons aren't coming from thin air in this case as thanks to having Polr Ne and weak Te with Fi base they often tend to immediately coming to conclusion (holographic reasoning) with taking a considerable time to change. I often hear from LIE dual seeking just how they crave Si demo from ESI to be more balanced only at the same time ESI need to have Ne-demo from LIE to see other perspectives and expand personal life which adds to Te+Fi relationship of duals due to a reason I explained. I know some awesome ESI people, but the worst kind is also very noticeable. No negativity, just presenting perspective from a different angle as I already had an experience with ESI by mentoring him at work and even using personal Ne-demo to help with his fear of being sacked by presenting other perspectives and some positive sides too.

[Echo]

Lie are not cold. Read more.


ILE Aushra about LIE:'Optimistic. He quickly reacts to everything that brings emotions, especially positive. He is as if preprogrammed for rising spirits of his dual (The Guardian) who always looks somewhat scared or angry. He permanently irradiates friendliness, positive emotions, and smiles. He tries to make his partner laugh, shakes and hassles her in all possible ways, until she finally reacts, either positively or negatively, otherwise he will not have information about his condition (of course, in this sentence HE and SHE pronouns may be used vice versa). He likes to relate and to discuss what he has read and heard. It is easy for him to start up a conversation with a person he has never been familiar with.

5. Love for life. He searches permanent and constant human relations. He does not understand very well feelings and attractions of other people; this is why he is careful in this field and is afraid of being funny. '


Fe is easier for us than Fi is.

don’t worry about nifl, it’s been long established that he’s a horrible typist. he doesn’t even technically use socionics to type people, he types with MBTI. His use of Socionics terminology is just him being deliberately confusing IMO

[Echo]

I also want to say that whatever you say about ESIs here would be considered wrong by most people that are into socionics. Because nobody, in any other socionics online space would ever agree or believe you that ESI can be just as much a scientist as they can be an artist. Athlete ? Yes. Artist ? Yes. Scientist ? No. Try to change their mind, they won't believe you.

I have personally met quite a few ESI scientists. I think they like the certainty that scientific research provides. But they usually are more interested in experimental work than theoretical work (in my experience).

[Adam Strange]

I have personally met quite a few ESI scientists. I think they like the certainty that scientific research provides. But they usually are more interested in experimental work than theoretical work (in my experience).

I believe that Kip Thorne, the world-renown expert on gravitation (he wrote the book!) is an ESI-Fi. I know two ESIs whom he resembles. One guy is an astrophysicist, the other works for General Dynamics in their remote sensing department and is the guy who introduced me to the 10x10x10 block cube that is the telephone-dialer (it encompasses the address-space) for the Universe.

[saima]

I'm in a bit of a rush, but want to write couple of things quick after reading discussion on the couple last pages

- I think it makes a huge difference what kind of relationship is in question between ESI-LIE dyad. Family or friend dynamics are different, I also had a notably different experience with a single ESI guy (me being straight female).

- I've met only one LIE female in my life, but more males. Where are all the females?? I want to meet them lol.

- Sometimes it looks like ESIs are pulled towards LIEs. I don't know if they consciously think that they want to be around me or are they just feeling like they "need for some reason be where that person is"? Maybe they meet duals rarely and when they do, they feel a strong pull?

- I'm often surprised to find out that ESIs like me and even seek me out or find my company funny or interesting. I hear this from third parties like "he was looking for you", "she told me about you and your this and that", etc. We have a really poor Fi indeed. If they send some signals to me I never realize anything.

- ESIs don't need to put on a show. In group situations I actually enjoy that I don't have to Fe all the time and try to keep everybody in high spirits. When they are silent and calmly look at me, I feel like I am allowed to be calm and silent as well. It signals me that it is okay to simply be present and I don't need to find every poor joke others make incredibly funny... It's also good, because I have less chances to make an ass out of myself by making some kind of ethical mistake inadvertently.

- I don't really go out of my way to find ESIs but they pop up in my life without me needing to do anything.

- I had an ESI friend when I was a teen and I was probably the first LIE she ever met. When we started talking after class, she kind of understood what I said, but she still chose a negative interpretation. There was an EII and she was like an interpreter between us. She would clarify everything I said to her. "No, she meant this when she said that" and ESI would ask her for questions (she was suspicious of ulterior motives or some kind of hidden meanings) and then she would explain that she should take everything I said with face value. After that discussion, the ESI spent more time with me and she understood me well. Her mom was SEE and she had a SEE little sister, but I don't think sharing the quadra helped her understand me. Eventually she spent all the time with me during school, often after it, we met over the summer, and so on. (to the detriment of her other friends who hated me for 'stealing her'--I tried to tell her we should spend time with her older friends but she just wanted to be with me. her friends hated me for it and still hate me to this day. they stirred up some drama and they broke our friendship eventually.)

- Beta NFs are lovely and mean well, but LIEs and ESIs can solve their own disagreements and be argumentative in a way that it actually helps us understand each other. It's not always harmonious but we are still getting along just fine, despite of how it looks from the Fe perspective. Don't panic.

- Oh and speaking of ESI scientists... I know a couple of ESI dudes in musicology and studying pretty much any subject in uni...

[Adam Strange]

I'm in a bit of a rush, but want to write couple of things quick after reading discussion on the couple last pages

- I think it makes a huge difference what kind of relationship is in question between ESI-LIE dyad. Family or friend dynamics are different, I also had a notably different experience with a single ESI guy (me being straight female).

- I've met only one LIE female in my life, but more males. Where are all the females?? I want to meet them lol.

- Sometimes it looks like ESIs are pulled towards LIEs. I don't know if they consciously think that they want to be around me or are they just feeling like they "need for some reason be where that person is"? Maybe they meet duals rarely and when they do, they feel a strong pull?

- I'm often surprised to find out that ESIs like me and even seek me out or find my company funny or interesting. I hear this from third parties like "he was looking for you", "she told me about you and your this and that", etc. We have a really poor Fi indeed. If they send some signals to me I never realize anything.

- ESIs don't need to put on a show. In group situations I actually enjoy that I don't have to Fe all the time and try to keep everybody in high spirits. When they are silent and calmly look at me, I feel like I am allowed to be calm and silent as well. It signals me that it is okay to simply be present and I don't need to find every poor joke others make incredibly funny... It's also good, because I have less chances to make an ass out of myself by making some kind of ethical mistake inadvertently.

- I don't really go out of my way to find ESIs but they pop up in my life without me needing to do anything.

- I had an ESI friend when I was a teen and I was probably the first LIE she ever met. When we started talking after class, she kind of understood what I said, but she still chose a negative interpretation. There was an EII and she was like an interpreter between us. She would clarify everything I said to her. "No, she meant this when she said that" and ESI would ask her for questions (she was suspicious of ulterior motives or some kind of hidden meanings) and then she would explain that she should take everything I said with face value. After that discussion, the ESI spent more time with me and she understood me well. Her mom was SEE and she had a SEE little sister, but I don't think sharing the quadra helped her understand me. Eventually she spent all the time with me during school, often after it, we met over the summer, and so on. (to the detriment of her other friends who hated me for 'stealing her'--I tried to tell her we should spend time with her older friends but she just wanted to be with me. her friends hated me for it and still hate me to this day. they stirred up some drama and they broke our friendship eventually.)

- Beta NFs are lovely and mean well, but LIEs and ESIs can solve their own disagreements and be argumentative in a way that it actually helps us understand each other. It's not always harmonious but we are still getting along just fine, despite of how it looks from the Fe perspective. Don't panic.

- Oh and speaking of ESI scientists... I know a couple of ESI dudes in musicology and studying pretty much any subject in uni...

Quoted for posterity.

Where are all the female LIEs?
Well, first of all, there are not many LIEs as a percentage of the population. LIEs in general make up about 2-3%, if my research is any good. In my personal life, I know about thirty LIEs (because I move in LIE circles), of which about six are female. I think that female LIEs make up about 0.5% of the population.

So, God didn't make many LIEs, and LIE is a very male personality, so when a female gets it, it can be kind of a disaster for her if she doesn't become strong.

Female LIEs I know:
1. Ran a division of GE.
2. Lesbian, in the military.
3. University professor.
4. runs a hotel.
5. Manager at my bank.
6. works in the insurance industry.

I've met a few more female LIEs, but I don't know what they do for a living.