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Thread: Fi vs Ti - Trust and Betrayal

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    Default Fi vs Ti - Trust and Betrayal

    I had this thought recently regarding xLEs Fi Polr and their consequent difficulties with evaluating their relations. Trusting the wrong people and being shocked/surprised when they face betrayal due to this.

    But then wouldn't that mean that those with high Fi (ExIs and xEEs) would be more accurately able to avoid these situations? To me, the high-Fi ability to adjust relations according to internal emotional states doesn't sound like it would necessarily produce a different result to an Fi-Polr's constant uncertainty at judging a relation. Both situations means that these judgments are never static and can change at any moment. Fi-Polrs are known for not really taking offense to anything yet still being mistrustful of others. However, ExIs are known for being judgemental and untrustworthy in a way that is different but still produces a person who ultimately has issues trusting others.

    Also, would this mean that the definition of 'trust' and 'betrayal' would change depending on whether that person values Fi or Ti?

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    you are correct but i do have to add ppl with low F and N have incorrect understanding of how relations go which means that they will betray someone while thinking they arent doing anything wrong, while forcing others to betray them - hurt other ppl whom i care about and they should be cared about in general so now i have to hurt the low Fi so he doesnt hurt those ppl and he becomes super dramatic and angry about it then makes up a story about all ppl who have a related group characteristic - racism, sexism, hating "beta" males etc.
    or by being an abusive and controlling person directly towards u without learning/getting better
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    you are correct but i do have to add ppl with low F and N have incorrect understanding of how relations go which means that they will betray someone while thinking they arent doing anything wrong, while forcing others to betray them - hurt other ppl whom i care about and they should be cared about in general so now i have to hurt the low Fi so he doesnt hurt those ppl and he becomes super dramatic and angry about it then makes up a story about all ppl who have a related group characteristic - racism, sexism, hating "beta" males etc.
    or by being an abusive and controlling person directly towards u without learning/getting better
    I'm confused, what do you mean? Lool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malandro View Post
    I'm confused, what do you mean? Lool
    SLE is racist picks fights with or threatens random ppl for no good reason then acts as if he cant trust anyone and what he did was justified but the truth is that no one can trust him. EII doesnt pick fights with or threaten random ppl for no good reason (usually, ofc everyone makes mistakes).
    if the SLE picks fights with random ppl and expects me to back him up and that doesnt happen and he starts thinking ive betrayed him, while he expects me to hurt myself while hurting others who dont deserve it bc hes impulsive, and i have to pretend to be a certain kind of person that the SLE sees as an ally so that im not his enemy, in which case im already being used as a tool to serve their bias. they have effectively betrayed me and forced me to manipulate them yet they act like victims.


    EII may have a more accurate perception of whats what when it comes to relationships, but when other ppl have bad perception of it, they will end up not measuring to EIIs standards whihc means they betray the EII.
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    My take on this is to observe people over time.


    Maybe that is very Ni take on it but people reveal themselves before your eyes given that time window and circumstances are large enough. Yes, lots of people are genuinely "He smiled therefore he is friendly" sort of SF way [because they discern immediate responses well] and it might work well for SFs but not so well for LIEs [according to some profiles] because they like to explore new avenues, have little time for taking notes and lack SF abilities.


    So I think it really depends what sort of trust you are looking for e,g short time vs long time.
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    Fi is calibrating the distance, closeness, distance, if we are talking about a Fi base then everything is evaluated from that kind of perspective. Depending on type and +/- sign of Fi it can be in different forms. However, evaluating the closeness and distance of a relationship doesnt necessarily result in high Fi users to escape from betrayal. In fact I would say that some INFx people in my life trusted the people they shouldnt trust and get betrayed also because of their Fi in a sense. Because they can be compromising and forgiving in a way that they shouldnt I think not only in my eyes but in the eyes of majority.


     


    EII coworker invited her boyfriend, her best friend, her boyfriend's best friend and me to her house to drink and spend time. EII and his boyfriend were dating for 2 months. We all drunk a lot, her boyfriend' got really drunk and nauseous, then went to bathroom to puke, remained there for a long time, his friend left. EII went afterwards to check up on him but EII came and said that he didnt let her in, in a resentful way. I said that he probably doesnt want to be seen in that position to her, because I wouldnt even want to be seen like that to not only my boyfriend but people at a party also.

    However, EII seemed resentful, I didnt understand why. Then after some time, EII's best friend said let me check up on him when EIIs attempts werent unfruitful and she suceed to get in the bathroom. Then when we were on one on one while her friend was at bathroom, EII said that this kind of a thing make people closer and now that they are sharing that time with each other while EII is not (Fi). That kind of a thought shocked me a bit, because I just thought that he doesnt want to be seen that way to his gf and he is fine with her cause she is not important in a way. I didnt understand what she meant by that time making them closer.

    When they were checking on him etc, EII came and said that she just saw her best friend giving a bj to her boyfriend, she asked me to stay, I said ok. Then EII's friend and boyfriend came and they all acted like nothing happened. EII's friend said that ok I am gonna sleep and start to nap at living room. EII showed me the guest room. When EII and her boyfriend went to her bedroom. I heard a noise, her friend fleed.

    Then since the rooms were next to each to other, I heard EII and her boyfriend discussing this thing. EII remained calm and soft during the speech, her boyfriend on the other hand was lying, yelling then when he was telling the truth he was blaming EII and her friend. I felt a sleep, EII's bf left.

    After a few days, maybe a week, EII said to me you know what, I was really curious about what is gonna happen between us and he did this thing and this is not my fault why would I suffer from the consequences of his actions, so I am gonna be with him.

    They were together like a year and a half, besides this, her bf was a walking red flag in every kind of sense. Then it ended due to other things. After some years, EII approached to her best friend and see her again not the other way around. She said she knows that she cannot trust her but they still can be friends.

    This whole thing is too far from how I perceive and react to things, hence it all seems surreal to me but sums up how Fi approaches to things.

    I would kick that them out, I could question him but wouldnt deal with his accusations, I would never forgive him and wouldnt continue the relationship, I wouldnt also forgive the friend and register as her friend even she approached countless times. But I also dont think about how close or distant I am to people lots of times and cannot gauge that very well. So in my eyes, my low Fi keeps me safer from betrayal and mistrust.



    I think when a bond is formed and when they are drawn to a some specific person, they cannot be impartial, hence high Fi users are much more open to betrayal and wrongly trusting some specific people that they are drawn to, attached to etc.

    But as I said, depending on type, there are differences in their approaches a lot.
    Last edited by myresearch; 07-25-2022 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Fi is calibrating the distance, closeness, distance, if we are talking about a Fi base then everything is evaluated from that kind of perspective. Depending on type and +/- sign of Fi it can be in different forms.

    However, evaluating the closeness and distance of a relationship doesnt necessarily result in high Fi users to escape from betrayal. In fact I would say that some INFx people in my life trusted the people they shouldnt trust and get betrayed also because of their Fi in a sense. Because they can be compromising and forgiving in a way that they shouldnt I think not only in my eyes but in the eyes of majority.

     


    EII coworker invited her boyfriend, her best friend, her boyfriend's best friend and me to her house to drink and spend time. EII and his boyfriend were dating for 2 months. We all drunk a lot, her boyfriend' got really drunk and nauseous, then went to bathroom to puke, remained there for a long time, his friend left. EII went afterwards to check up on him but EII came and said that he didnt let her in, in a resentful way. I said that he probably doesnt want to be seen in that position to her, because I wouldnt even want to be seen like that to not only my boyfriend but people at a party also.

    However, EII seemed resentful, I didnt understand why. Then after some time, EII's best friend said let me check up on him when EIIs attempts werent unfruitful and she suceed to get in the bathroom. Then when we were on one on one while her friend was at bathroom, EII said that this kind of a thing make people closer and now that they are sharing that time with each other while EII is not (Fi). That kind of a thought shocked me a bit, because I just thought that he doesnt want to be seen that way to his gf and he is fine with her cause she is not important in a way. I didnt understand what she meant by that time making them closer.

    When they were checking on him etc, EII came and said that she just saw her best friend giving a bj to her boyfriend, she asked me to stay, I said ok. Then EII's friend and boyfriend came and they all acted like nothing happened. EII's friend said that ok I am gonna sleep and start to nap at living room. EII showed me the guest room. When EII and her boyfriend went to her bedroom. I heard a noise, her friend fleed.

    Then since the rooms were next to each to other, I heard EII and her boyfriend discussing this thing. EII remained calm and soft during the speech, her boyfriend on the other hand was lying, yelling then when he was telling the truth he was blaming EII and her friend. I felt a sleep, EII's bf left.

    After a few days, maybe a week, EII said to me you know what, I was really curious about what is gonna happen between us and he did this thing and this is not my fault why would I suffer from the consequences of his actions, so I am gonna be with him.

    They were together like a year and a half, besides this, her bf was a walking red flag in every kind of sense. Then it ended due to other things. After some years, EII approached to her best friend and see her again not the other way around. She said she knows that she cannot trust her but they still can be friends.

    This whole thing is too far from how I perceive and react to things, hence it all seems surreal to me but sums up how Fi approaches to things.

    I would kick that them out, I could question him but wouldnt deal with his accusations, I would never forgive him and wouldnt continue the relationship, I wouldnt also forgive the friend and register as her friend even she approached countless times. But I also dont think about how close or distant I am to people lots of times and cannot gauge that very well. So in my eyes, my low Fi keeps me safer from betrayal and mistrust.


    I think when a bond is formed and when they are drawn to a some specific person, they cannot be impartial, hence high Fi users are much more open to betrayal and wrongly trusting some specific people that they are drawn to, attached to etc.

    But as I said, depending on type, there are differences in their approaches a lot.

    This is a great post, @myresearch. It helps me understand some of the behaviors I’ve seen in ESIs.

    I’ve always found it puzzling that ESIs, a type which I thought would be great at evaluating people, seem to get deep into bad relationships and get betrayed by people.

    Stratiyevskaya talked about being exploited by an LIE in her essay on ESI-LIE relations, one ESI that I dated said that all of her boyfriends made her feel ashamed of herself, an ESI that I met in a hair salon said that her second husband looked at her as if she was a moron whenever she said something, and the ESI that I dated last summer said her first SEE husband was an immature wastrel and her second LSI husband was a womanizer who treated her son like shit. She had endless stories about how all the people in her life betrayed her.
    Even the ESI-Se interior decorator, whom I would say is the healthiest ESI I’ve met, seems to have a trail behind her of failed relationships marked by betrayal. She said that her last girlfriend suggested that they have an open relationship, and at first, the ESI-Se tried to go along with it, but then found that she couldn’t. I found it funny to hear her tell the story. She was so mad about it that she could hardly speak.
    If that happened to me, as soon as I heard the words “open relationship”, I’d know it was over. Furthermore, I don’t think I’d feel betrayed, but rather I’d feel that I’d just chosen a bad partner.

    Man, it makes you wonder.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-25-2022 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is a great post, @myresearch. It helps me understand some of the behaviors I’ve seen in ESIs.

    I’ve always found it puzzling that ESIs, a type which I thought would be great at evaluating people, seem to get deep into bad relationships and get betrayed by people.

    Stratiyevskaya talked about being exploited by an LIE in her essay on ESI-LIE relations, one ESI that I dated said that all of her boyfriends made her feel ashamed of herself, an ESI that I met in a hair salon said that her second husband looked at her as if she was a moron whenever she said something, and the ESI that I dated last summer said her first SEE husband was an immature wastrel and her second LSI husband was a womanizer who treated her son like shit. She had endless stories about how all the people in her life betrayed her.
    Even the ESI-Se interior decorator, whom I would say is the healthiest ESI I’ve met, seems to have a trail behind her of failed relationships marked by betrayal.

    Man, it makes you wonder.
    I don't think being strong at something socionics-wise means a person has a superpower. For example, ethical types can be wrong about people and logical types wrong in their arguments.

    I think we think the grass is greener on the other side.
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    I’ve done a lot of reading about ESIs in the past few years, in order to be better prepared for when I dated a Dual, and one writer said that an ESI’s mate needs to be prepared to help her move the furniture every once in a while (I think this is related to Ti), and should be prepared to listen to endless complaints about her co-workers. And be sympathetic.
    I read those statements and carefully noted them.

    The ESI-Se interior decorator will arrange furniture one way, and then, a few days later, will want to rearrange it.

    I was talking to my ILI lawyer-traveling buddy about my experiences with dating an ESI last summer. He’s married to an ESI-Se, and when I said that every time I visited the ESI that I was dating, she had endless stories complaining about her co-workers, he went dead-quiet.
    I think he can relate.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-25-2022 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    SLE is racist picks fights with or threatens random ppl for no good reason then acts as if he cant trust anyone and what he did was justified but the truth is that no one can trust him.
    Sounds like an ILE I know minus the picking fights loool Says very controversial quips and jokes then squirms and thinks everyone hates him. He's fun to wind up. I don't type people in my real life but ILEs always stand out. They come into any environment and think they're hilarious and usually are. But when I detect that lack of confidence beneath the smile, I realise they can be even more fun to hang around with lol.

    if the SLE picks fights with random ppl and expects me to back him up and that doesnt happen and he starts thinking ive betrayed him, while he expects me to hurt myself while hurting others who dont deserve it bc hes impulsive, and i have to pretend to be a certain kind of person that the SLE sees as an ally so that im not his enemy
    I relate to this somewhat which is why at a very young age, I focused on being strong so that I wouldn't need to think about other people supporting me in situations. I never picked fights but always attracted bad attention when I was younger and I'd have groups gang up on me while my friends would just sit and watch in the background. I learnt that better friends would at least be willing to defend me as I got older, even if they don't have the confidence and brawn that I do. If someone attacked my friend, I wouldn't even need to think about backing their corner in that moment because it would be automatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Fi is calibrating the distance, closeness, distance, if we are talking about a Fi base then everything is evaluated from that kind of perspective. Depending on type and +/- sign of Fi it can be in different forms. However, evaluating the closeness and distance of a relationship doesnt necessarily result in high Fi users to escape from betrayal. In fact I would say that some INFx people in my life trusted the people they shouldnt trust and get betrayed also because of their Fi in a sense. Because they can be compromising and forgiving in a way that they shouldnt I think not only in my eyes but in the eyes of majority.


     


    EII coworker invited her boyfriend, her best friend, her boyfriend's best friend and me to her house to drink and spend time. EII and his boyfriend were dating for 2 months. We all drunk a lot, her boyfriend' got really drunk and nauseous, then went to bathroom to puke, remained there for a long time, his friend left. EII went afterwards to check up on him but EII came and said that he didnt let her in, in a resentful way. I said that he probably doesnt want to be seen in that position to her, because I wouldnt even want to be seen like that to not only my boyfriend but people at a party also.

    However, EII seemed resentful, I didnt understand why. Then after some time, EII's best friend said let me check up on him when EIIs attempts werent unfruitful and she suceed to get in the bathroom. Then when we were on one on one while her friend was at bathroom, EII said that this kind of a thing make people closer and now that they are sharing that time with each other while EII is not (Fi). That kind of a thought shocked me a bit, because I just thought that he doesnt want to be seen that way to his gf and he is fine with her cause she is not important in a way. I didnt understand what she meant by that time making them closer.

    When they were checking on him etc, EII came and said that she just saw her best friend giving a bj to her boyfriend, she asked me to stay, I said ok. Then EII's friend and boyfriend came and they all acted like nothing happened. EII's friend said that ok I am gonna sleep and start to nap at living room. EII showed me the guest room. When EII and her boyfriend went to her bedroom. I heard a noise, her friend fleed.

    Then since the rooms were next to each to other, I heard EII and her boyfriend discussing this thing. EII remained calm and soft during the speech, her boyfriend on the other hand was lying, yelling then when he was telling the truth he was blaming EII and her friend. I felt a sleep, EII's bf left.

    After a few days, maybe a week, EII said to me you know what, I was really curious about what is gonna happen between us and he did this thing and this is not my fault why would I suffer from the consequences of his actions, so I am gonna be with him.

    They were together like a year and a half, besides this, her bf was a walking red flag in every kind of sense. Then it ended due to other things. After some years, EII approached to her best friend and see her again not the other way around. She said she knows that she cannot trust her but they still can be friends.

    This whole thing is too far from how I perceive and react to things, hence it all seems surreal to me but sums up how Fi approaches to things.

    I would kick that them out, I could question him but wouldnt deal with his accusations, I would never forgive him and wouldnt continue the relationship, I wouldnt also forgive the friend and register as her friend even she approached countless times. But I also dont think about how close or distant I am to people lots of times and cannot gauge that very well. So in my eyes, my low Fi keeps me safer from betrayal and mistrust.



    I think when a bond is formed and when they are drawn to a some specific person, they cannot be impartial, hence high Fi users are much more open to betrayal and wrongly trusting some specific people that they are drawn to, attached to etc.

    But as I said, depending on type, there are differences in their approaches a lot.
    The thing that confuses me the most about the story is the fact the EII would even reconsider the friendship again knowing that they can't trust that person anymore. If you've already decided you can't trust someone for definite, how can you be friends again? It doesn't make sense to me and seems like a waste of time and effort. Unless someone was desperate for friends but I'd assume an EII would know better because they have a better perception of their own feelings compared to an xLE who may decide to be optimistic or pessimistic about the situation (making a swift judgement of 'yes, I'll take them back' or 'no, the friendship is dead') because they have no R to base their decisions on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malandro View Post
    I relate to this somewhat which is why at a very young age, I focused on being strong so that I wouldn't need to think about other people supporting me in situations. I never picked fights but always attracted bad attention when I was younger and I'd have groups gang up on me while my friends would just sit and watch in the background. I learnt that better friends would at least be willing to defend me as I got older, even if they don't have the confidence and brawn that I do. If someone attacked my friend, I wouldn't even need to think about backing their corner in that moment because it would be automatic.
    the SLE who did that is rather short he works out a lot even if ur tall and strong ppl can still be too many against one. i wanted to increase my own pain tolerance so i wouldnt get mentally traumatised and my life set back if things turn out bad for me so i wouldnt have to rely on others or leave them when they need me but more painful experiences just translated into more pain and delirium not less.

    a group mistook me for someone else and wanted to start a fight i moved behind ILE and told him they are being hostile. very not proud of that. esp since i was mad at him about things prior so i didnt want to owe something to someone while simultaneously trying to get revenge < due to pain sticking to me like that i was also very vengeful, as if any of those ppl would go through a tenth of what i have to deal with while i know they give way less of their life to avoid harming others in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malandro View Post
    The thing that confuses me the most about the story is the fact the EII would even reconsider the friendship again knowing that they can't trust that person anymore. If you've already decided you can't trust someone for definite, how can you be friends again? It doesn't make sense to me and seems like a waste of time and effort. Unless someone was desperate for friends but I'd assume an EII would know better because they have a better perception of their own feelings compared to an xLE who may decide to be optimistic or pessimistic about the situation (making a swift judgement of 'yes, I'll take them back' or 'no, the friendship is dead') because they have no R to base their decisions on.
    some ppl cheat bc they are stupid impulsive yolo etc. others do it bc they want to degrade you and dont respect you. first one okay if they are genuinely sorry second one im gonna get banned
    everyone makes mistakes and what i consider untrustworthy would be someone who thinks themselves to be above that. ironically waht EIIs get accused of. probably other ppl's biased black and white thinking they assume the EII is using against them while judging them.


    i know an ESI if he gets cheated on he wants to punish the cheater so they prove they are really sorry he wont buy it otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malandro View Post
    The thing that confuses me the most about the story is the fact the EII would even reconsider the friendship again knowing that they can't trust that person anymore. If you've already decided you can't trust someone for definite, how can you be friends again? It doesn't make sense to me and seems like a waste of time and effort. Unless someone was desperate for friends but I'd assume an EII would know better because they have a better perception of their own feelings compared to an xLE who may decide to be optimistic or pessimistic about the situation (making a swift judgement of 'yes, I'll take them back' or 'no, the friendship is dead') because they have no R to base their decisions on.
    That also surprised me, she took that decision recently. We havent seen each other for a long time. I said her that she can do something like this again but she didnt seem to talk about it.

    Her friend was very sexual, maybe too much. When this thing happened, EII told me that maybe she did it because she slept with a guy that her friend was into or had sex in the past but she was into or had sex with everyone she knows so what she can do(tbh I dont remember this part a lot cause this happened years ago). EII also said that maybe she did it in order to show her his true nature in the past after that incident.

    EII doesnt have lots of friends. Her friend knew lots of people, was super extrovert, EII met lots of people via her during that time. My own guess is that due to things she said above, she made some rationalizations and minimized situation and decided to be friends with her in a superficial maybe she can meet more people via her since I know that she wants to meet people and potential partners(?).

    But apart from this, she actually betrayed by another ex during the whole relationship for years in a way that people can read on a newspaper. But she said, although he did all these things and he can be a psychopath but they had a good time, he was a good friend. And continue to talk with him via skype since he was living very far away.

    So I am seeing this thing that she just keeps on having relations people if she kept some kind of a bond with them regardless of what they do. Especially romantic partners.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    I'll speak for myself, and it's probably also applicable to EIIs.

    Something to note about 4D Fi/Ni types is that we can't help but to strongly trust our judgements of how people are deep down. I have run into issues because I always see the best in someone as well as all of their potential. Additionally, if I believe someone's a good person deep down, then the reality of some shitty actions they did are easily overlooked.
    Because of the layers I see underneath, as well as my 4-ish inclination to be just so very accepting towards my loved ones of their humanity, imperfections, and warts and all else, oftentimes my friends will point out : "uhh sure that's great and all but that doesn't stop the fact of what he actually did [etc]." Prompting me to have a bit of an "oh, duh, i'm being a little silly right now..." moment.
    I feel this as well. I've been told I shrug off people's bad actions too easily and am perhaps too idealistic about other people, plus I can't really stay mad at others for long because my mind is good at finding justifications for others.

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    Moderator myresearch's Avatar
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    This took another turn because of a story I shared. So I feel obliged to say this. ExI and xEE dont share everything with everyone. They dont trust everyone and forgive whatever everyone is doing.

    I just noticed that INFx in terms of romance only, when they are drawn to a person or if they formed a bond, then they can forgive like no other.

    Apart from romance, you can sometimes understand that why they trust and like a person. Sometimes you cannot, it seems arbitrary. For example, they say I dont like and trust person because of X reason. But they are friends with another person who is doing X.

    They generally make judgements about a person based on said things. For example, if a person say that I am A, then they think they are A or value A even though that person may be anti-A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malandro View Post
    Sounds like an ILE I know minus the picking fights loool Says very controversial quips and jokes then squirms and thinks everyone hates him. He's fun to wind up. I don't type people in my real life but ILEs always stand out. They come into any environment and think they're hilarious and usually are. But when I detect that lack of confidence beneath the smile, I realise they can be even more fun to hang around with lol.
    Fuck bro, you got me.

    Fi-POLR is pure suffering straight from the tap

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