Socionics type - inborn, enneagram - acquired ?

[lavos]

So reviewing my childhood photo album, I noticed that i could identify which of my tritype fixes I was being in a determinate moment (using VI, then remembering). I think I can pinpoint when exactly each of the enneagram fixes happened or first appeared. They say a person's personality becomes "fixed" or practically set at the age of 5 years. You mature from there onwards, but the core of your being has been established. So I guess that's when your enneagram fixes are set.

Now for socionics... I believe it is genetic and you are your type since you are born. Pretty sure of this, so if you have any contradictory evidence, please post it.

Thoughts?

[Bethanyclaire]

Likely inborn..I wonder if your genes/hormones/type make it more likely for you to reproduce a certain type..the two middle siblings in my family are SEE so I’ve wondered if that’s a coincidence. (children are se-valuing/ parents si-valuing)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

wouldn't it be both for everything? You acquire certain things based on the natural core essence of who u are.

[DEAD]

I'm too mentally ill to tell, lmfao.

[Exodus]

It seems unlikely that for two types that are so closely correlated, one would be inborn and the other not. (Each sociotype usually seems to have 3ish possible Enneatypes, sometimes more.) But it's all speculation at this point. My impression is that both are inborn.

[lavos]

I think that if you take into account destiny, Enneagram type can be considered inborn too. But I think that in each incarnation (I believe in reincarnation) Ennegram type can change. Socionics type doesn't, it never changes. I have some evidence for this.

[Aster]

imo I believe nature has more of an influence than nurture, but nurture can def make you go down a certain path you wouldn’t have gone down if in a different situation. Nurture just makes certain features more exaggerated. ex being rich or poor, raised in a certain neighborhood-the ghetto vs Beverley hills, abuse from parents making genes more exaggerated.

I think I would have always been the seeker type though. I could see it being there from a very young age

[godslave]

It can not be inborn imho. When a baby comes to the world he or she is literally not finished i.e. physiologically incomplete but ready for further brain development. Note that the baby's head also grows in proportion and that's one of the reasons why fetuses can't stay much longer than 9 months in utero. The human vagina's plastisity is designed to support about an average of 35 cm of dilatation. Btw Neanderthals women's had great difficulties to give birth to the babies they had with Homo Sapiens because the size of their pelvis was smaller so that contributes to Neanderthals extinction/assimilation. But I digress.

Now, when the baby is born, it (let me use "it" instead of she/he for the purpose of this demonstration !) already has been influenced by the chemistry of his mother (mental state, level stress etc..) for instance if the mother kept smoking during her pregnancy then the baby will feel the effects of nicotine withdrawal and that will affect its development. Another example if the mother is very stressed during her pregnancy the baby will be stressed too and its level of cortisol and adrenaline would be higher than normal and that will affect its development. Those non genetical in utero acquired kinds of factors and their effects are very complex to follow, detect and measure.

That being said let's get down to the nitty-gritty namely Informations. The Synaptogenesis rhythm during the first years of babies is about 200 000 synapses per minute. The skull diameter of the baby would enhance from 35 cm to about 43-45 cm in two years. All that the brain will do at this point is treating most and foremost sensory informations obviously it can not be otherwise because sensory information precedes verbal language and symbolic representation. Note that if a baby is put (for whatever reasons) to a prolonged sensory isolation then its brain (frontal lobe) will start to show signs of atrophy and the baby (or even the young child) will develop egocentric behaviors similar to that of an autistic child. Note that a secure environment can remedy to that since the child brain's plasticity is very favorable to resilience.

Imho, Temperament genesis and thus socionics stuff is an ongoing process which begins from birth to age 3-4. Imho, during that process period there are several temperament options equally available, I would say that temperament at this point is like stem cells, a potentiality. Obviously I don't know how that stuff can be really aligned because socionics is just a theory, a good one, but a theory nonetheless. The question of inborn / acquired is a very complex one. The answer from my perspective is that it is acquired but it's multifactorial some of it comes from the mother (in utero), Some from genetic predispositions, some from the environment, some from the availability of objects and other people in a secure environment and some from life events. Anyway, I don't want to sound like I know what I'm talking about so I'll stop here !

Edit : I didn't talk about Enneagram being acquired because I misread the thread title but it doesn't change much. It doesn't make a difference if we're talking about socionics or Enneagram when it comes to Nature vs Nurture questions because the answer is the same as far as I'm concerned there are both acquired even if we probably have some genetic predispositions (esp when it comes to physical health which can be somewhat related to sensory/intuitive predispositions (?)). We can be the carrier of the gene of a disease without developing said disease under certain circumstances and develop under others (Stress, lifestyle etc..).

[Squirrel]

Socionics type from birth, I don't think it has to be inherited but for sure your first functions appear from birth

Enneagram never appears in childhood, never, never, I've never seen anyone around me showed his Enneagram at childhood but I have noticed that those who are in reactive triad tend to be overly calm in their childhood ( and this is a note that needs more experiments to prove it, so don't take it literally )

[Squirrel]

If I wanted to type myself in Enneagram based on childhood , I would undoubtedly be Enneagram 7

But recently, I've started to read more descriptions and think of it based on how I'm really this days

at this point, I'm excluding E7 partially . it might be a wing or a last fix but I don't think it's the core anymore

my 4 Sx sister showed no signs that she was a 4 in her childhood , she only showed one sign but I'm not sure is it because of smth else or because of the enneagram

My LIE friend also didn't show 3 behaviours back to these days

[adage]

I used to think both for socionics but I'm thinking it's inborn these days.
I'm wondering if I wanted to believe nurture mattered because I wanted to be someone else, which was only superficially possible with great damage to my mental and even physical state.

I guess nurture nuances, or even messes up the cards at most.


Idk about enneagram, once I stop displaying traits of most types, I'll reconsider.

[Holy Hivemind]

Natur und Kunst, sie scheinen sich zu fliehen
und haben sich, eh’ man es denkt, gefunden;
der Widerwille ist auch mir verschwunden,
und beide scheinen gleich mich anzuziehen.


Es gilt wohl nur ein redliches Bemühen!
Und wenn wir erst in abgemessnen Stunden
mit Geist und Fleiß uns an die Kunst gebunden,
mag frei Natur im Herzen wieder glühen.


So ist’s mit aller Bildung auch beschaffen:
Vergebens werden ungebundne Geister
nach der Vollendung reiner Höhe streben.


Wer Großes will, muss sich zusammenraffen;
in der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.

[lavos]

Since nobody asks (you people suck ), I'm going to tell the evidence I noticed for my hypothesis.

When looking at my photo album, I noticed that when I was a baby (there's a pic where I was just a few days old or something) I VI'ed like an 8w9. Since I was born out of a C-Section, and I struggled a bit during a few days (I had an umbilical cord "noose" around my neck, that's why I couldn't be born the normal way) and it was traumatic and painful, I guess I got the motivation to "survive" which made 8w9 my first fix. I noticed in another pictures at another ages that I VI's like other types, but the thing is I do not know what determines the order of the fixes as they appear (as I am not 8w9 first fix). I suspect the first fix gets "buried" by the ones that appear afterwards.

More evidence enneagram being acquired.... (this might sound somewhat weird/mystical or w/e) in your soul, there is stored the totality of your past incarnations into this world. Let's just say that via some mechanism, some people are able to "remember" and somewhat restore their past selves into the their current self. Sort of like morphing, similar to MPD but not quite. These selves do not have the same enneagram type as the one the person currently has. I think they do have the same socionics type, but the enneagram type changes.


Socionics being inborn: 1) because monozygotic twins, who have the same genetic material, always are either of 2 possibilities: identity or conflictors (determined via VI). Also, babies can be VI'ed socionics wise with no problem.

[lavos]

Socionics is an integral structure of a being.


Enneagram is an acquired overlay of a being.



But both are valid and typeable components of a being's personality (I say "being" here and not "person" because other beings besides humans also seem to have them).

[Exodus]

It seems unlikely that for two types that are so closely correlated, one would be inborn and the other not. (Each sociotype usually seems to have 3ish possible Enneatypes, sometimes more.) But it's all speculation at this point. My impression is that both are inborn.

I should clarify: what I mean to say more specifically is that type is probably not determined by external, environmental factors such as trauma. It is possible that type only manifests or becomes determined somewhat after birth, in the first few years of life, but it's still an internal characteristic, it comes from within.

[Metamorph]

Socionics is an integral structure of a being.


Enneagram is an acquired overlay of a being.



But both are valid and typeable components of a being's personality (I say "being" here and not "person" because other beings besides humans also seem to have them).

Stop summoning demons to give them enneagram types.

[Metamorph]

I should clarify: what I mean to say more specifically is that type is probably not determined by external, environmental factors such as trauma. It is possible that type only manifests or becomes determined somewhat after birth, in the first few years of life, but it's still an internal characteristic, it comes from within.

I mean, if it's not determined by external factors it must be innate, but some innate traits show up later and that's part of growth. A caterpillar becomes a butterfly, but as long as that caterpillar doesn't die, it will always become a butterfly and not stay a caterpillar or become something else. A seed germinates, but that plant was always in that seed, and there was no other kind of plant in that seed.

[lavos]

Stop summoning demons to give them enneagram types.

Are you a demon?

[Exodus]

I mean, if it's not determined by external factors it must be innate, but some innate traits show up later and that's part of growth. A caterpillar becomes a butterfly, but as long as that caterpillar doesn't die, it will always become a butterfly and not stay a caterpillar or become something else. A seed germinates, but that plant was always in that seed, and there was no other kind of plant in that seed.

Exactly

[Metamorph]

Are you a demon?

Why are you assuming I'm a type of being besides humans? Did your Tarot reading tell you that? I hope I'm human. Being human seems harder, but look at all the other kinds of beings out there (e.g., demons.) They are not having a good time either, for seemingly smaller benefit.

If there were embodied aliens who weren't a hive mind, I would consider them the same as humans. Humans means dirt people basically which they would also be even if they aren't Homo sapiens.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm a Pure Demon and I need to be loved. Just like everybody else does. Except they don't cuz they're not as cool as meeeeee. I mean, I've already waited too long. And all my hope is gone.

OG Charmed theme song <3

[Metamorph]

I'm a Pure Demon and I need to be loved. Just like everybody else does. Except they don't cuz they're not as cool as meeeeee. I mean, I've already waited too long. And all my hope is gone.

OG Charmed theme song <3

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh remember the days when all the 14 year old girls on LiveJournal thought it was 'air' and not heir. /nostalgia

[Metamorph]

Oh remember the days when all the 14 year old girls on LiveJournal thought it was 'air' and not heir. /nostalgia

Well, to be fair, "I am the Sun and the air" and "I am the son and the heir" actually are pronounced exactly the same way, unlike many other mondegreens. Also to be fair to other mondegreens, many singers are not really annunciating anything well at all, or saying things that are so weird it makes sense people are expecting other things, e.g. "there's a bathroom on the right" is much more normal than "there's a bad moon on the rise," and "wrapped up like a douche" is slightly more common than "revved up like a deuce" despite being an awkward phrase about a feminine hygiene product.

[Poptart]

As a kid, I heard Metallica sing “Amstel Light”. I believe the correct lyric is “Exit light” lol.

[godslave]

We should make a funny thread about misperception of speech esp in song lyrics :

When I was a kid I loved The concert in Central Park Album from Simon of Garfunkel, my uncle used to play it in his car a lot. The thing is that I didn't know it was "Simon and Garfunkel" I was about 6 or 7 years old. At the beginning of the concert there's a guy introducing the S and G and this is what I was hearing at the time : "Ladies and gentlemen, Silent of Africa !!" instead of "Ladies and gentlemen, Simon and Garfunkel !!". I will spare you the countless other misperceptions I had from that album alone..

Note that English is not really one my mother tongues so I don't know if it makes sense to talk about "misperception" in my case when you don't even know the meaning of the words the brain is trying "imitating" in the first place but "well, I figured what the hell !".

[The Reality Denialist]

My mother wrote that I was happy, smiling, active taking eye contact, very much in tune with atmosphere, bit stubborn, somewhat twisted, particular about food... and then she wrote that I could become a scientist or an engineer.

Eh, yeah. Not much has changed. Sort of interesting contradicting set.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

When I was first learning about sex, I thought cum was 'gum' for the longest time lol. I thought it was like a bat (baseball)/bat (the mammal) situation ya know.

[Metamorph]

My mother wrote that I was happy, smiling, active taking eye contact, very much in tune with atmosphere, bit stubborn, somewhat twisted, particular about food... and then she wrote that I could become a scientist or an engineer.

Eh, yeah. Not much has changed. Sort of interesting contradicting set.

Not contradicting. Only modern weird culture thinks that Sheldon Cooper is a real scientist and Albert Einstein isn't.

And anyway, are you a scientist or engineer?

[The Reality Denialist]

Not contradicting. Only modern weird culture thinks that Sheldon Cooper is a real scientist and Albert Einstein isn't.

And anyway, are you a scientist or engineer?

I have quite heavy scientific education behind me. Tbh I can not consider myself as an engineer but some (I mean most) tend to slap those things together (because you usually have to know how to add numbers and in extreme circumstances even subtract) while I find them very different .

[WinnieW]

As a kid, I heard Metallica sing “Amstel Light”. I believe the correct lyric is “Exit light” lol.

One of my most favorite auditive misperceptions is: ashtray instead of astray.