Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Ti Function Dilemma Explained

  1. #1
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Ti Function Configurations Explained

    Purpose of this thread:
    Many users wonder if having Ti not valued means automatically being illogical, unsuitable for science or other subjects. They then use these characteristics to type themselves or others. However, Ti function is not always well understood, in my opinion. Ti is very often considered as connected to profound Intelligence, "rationality" in the most common sense of the term. It leads to a general misunderstanding. I don't even think my interpretation is necessarily true. I'm just looking for a comparison with other users.
    Ti definition:
    • The basic definition of function considers it as the tendency of the individual to package information, synthesize them, and consider them in their consequentiality, often starting from "small pieces" of information, to build a personal reconstruction of an "object", whom varies according to the configuration of the function of that type.
    • It also allows the individual to be truly confident about his structure, by virtue of the fact that he gives value to that consequentiality, because every little piece of the structure he creates has a weight and force of self-determination. "2 + 2 = 4 , I have no reason to doubt this result". This confidence is almost always carried by the individual even in what cannot be proved mathematically. As if he had invented an objective "mathematics" (or "physics") for the phenomena that surround him. Each piece of his machine has its own function in that large structure, and he is sure of it. It doesn't matter whether their structure is right or wrong (objectively speaking). They will believe it as if it were objective and the others were blind. "Confidence" (of this structure) is a keyword of the function under consideration, which solves most of the doubts related to this function.


    The thesis in question is that the individual with high use of this function does NOT have the most rational logic of all. It's just that to understand things he needs to reconstruct a structure of those in his own way, ignoring the pre-existing models (plus LII / LSI), or bending them to his own idea (plus ILE / SLE). Therefore, a structure that is the manifestation of what is rational for him (not what is more rational per se or recognized as such from others).
    This works well with mostly "objective" subjects, such as mathematics, and often individuals are more interested in these subjects than others.

    I will show concrete examples using people I've analyzed for years and towards which I have no doubt about their sociotype. They are individuals who have extremely stereotyped characteristics of their type, and which I have found in many other individuals of the same type. For now I want to focus on the opposite poles of Ti: those who have Ti as the first or second function, and those who has it as PolR. Other cases will be exposed later.

    Ti Lead- INTj
    I was talking to a LII friend about the criminals and the punishments that should be given to them.
    I argued that, in the absence of a punitive law, no one is afraid of the judgment of the court, since in similar cases the penalties are few (in Italy). A few years in prison, or probation, even for serious facts. By intensifying penalties, the perception of crime would be different, and fewer people would choose the path of crime because of the risks it would entail.
    Conversely, LII argued that every criminal is mentally ill, because if he were not ill he would not do what he does. For him there is no lucidity in brutality or thievery. There is always a state of mind that must be treated not with jail, but only with social help and psychiatric consultation: "Jail should not exist".
    In my opinion, this was a completely irrational thought, but it made perfect sense to him (due to his own logical structure).
    I totally took a stand against this idea, and the next day I brought him a psychiatry textbook, kindly lent by my medical student friend, where they stated exactly that crime is not itself to be attributed to a psychiatric problem, since many of they show lucidity in committing the crime. The document listed various reasons why this analogy could not be made (although I thought it unnecessary to even consult a manual for such a thing).

    His answer was that this is not the case and that sooner or later it will be discovered in his opinion that it is as he said. He literally ignores the thought structures of others in favor of his own. He appears inflexible, with an innate confidence of an extremely subjective thought.
    His family owns an association that cares for the sick and disabled, and he is very interested in that. The problem from my point of view is the use of quasi-mechanical models in his understanding of human problem solving (he studies engineering). However, this is ineffective both with others and with oneself.

    He openly expresses heavy personal judgments about people in front of them, regardless of the anger that the listener may feel. He does not consider his opinion, but truth. Therefore he often judges acts that are also very normal and not negative, just because they do not follow his logic. According to him, all people are like machines and his standardized method of resolution applies to everyone equally. When he finds himself in the same problems that he criticizes others, he cannot use the extreme coldness that he suggests to others, since the emotions (which he claims to hate so much) are awakened in him.

    XLE (ESTp, Se-Ti):
    Regarding SLEs and ILEs, the construction of these structures is a mobile becoming, which means that these same thought patterns can vacillate and be modified or radically changed even in a short time, leading to an apparent irrationality to the outside, which he tries to hide or just explain with the use of a demonstrative Te (showing through a more accepted filter their idea).
    People often struggle to understand the "why" of the actions of an SLE or the words of an ILE etc.

    For them, experience becomes a testing ground, where they can understand what works and what doesn't work to win the favour of others, both in terms of personal advantages/hierarchy(SLE) and in the construction and external validation of one's own logical idea/structure (ILE). It's a kind of game with small goals at a time to reach a more general point.

    An SLE I knew enjoyed creating contexts in which he put everyone else in a state of misunderstanding and tension state.
    He left one girl and took another one, and then he said did to make her fall in love with him and then leave her, just for revenge (which is unmotivated because she hadn't done anything to hurt him), then he returned to his ex, then again he left her and returned to the previous one. Meanwhile, he told many people invented dialogues about the only friends who supported him to make them be considered weak and envious of him. His were dynamics of power and conquest. The desire to be above the hierarchy and wanting to make everyone think they are the best at expense of others.
    So many small goals that changed in place of his impulsiveness to prove it. He tried to give the impression that his actions were perfectly logical and cohesive, explaining that he was acting for a well-defined reason, at times almost shakespearean (Te demonstrative), but in the end he was betraying himself in practice. Demonstrative Te of the type tries to use or bend external structures for the explanation of its own personal structure, without there being any real interest in this source.
    Apparently there is an intention to rationalize with Te a structure that is only theirs.

    Ti polR SEE / IEE
    In this position, the individual lacks the confidence of his own structures, as well as the interest in considering the consequentiality of events in short time, ignoring it.
    He may know clearly that by saying or doing certain things he may lose the future benefits defined, for example, by a friendship or partner (SEE) or he may miss any opportunity of various kinds (IEE), but in the present moment he is not valuing it as a future vantage (SEE), or they don't consider advantage per se (IEE), being moved by Fi.
    The world is full of advantages and opportunities, and this allows them to detach themselves in the present. Still, repentance is not uncommon, because they have not taken into account that he may still need it, as perhaps no further opportunities have actually arisen the next days.

    SEE exemple:
    This happened with the same EII twice, with two different SEEs.

    The SEE insistently asks an EII friend to let her go out with her group of friends (where the ex-boyfriend and / or people, who hate her for the manias of protagonism, are present). EII says it cannot do this, because she has to preserve the mood of the group. SEE goes crazy and instead of thinking about all the benefits she would get from keeping her friendship with the one person who can stand her, she decides to scold her and blame her for things that never happened and then vanishing and making ghosting to the EII.
    The advantage that the SEE wants to obtain in the immediate present is perceived as a necessary need. There is no interest in the consequentiality of the actions. She doesn't think "If I argue with her I won't be able to go out (having not so much friends) / I won't be able to make her change her mind and let me go our with her if I insult her." or others possibilities.

    He preferred to lose everything immediately. She regrets it and tries to become friends with EII again, which she accepted the first time, but not the second.
    For the second SEE it happened the same thing with just a few variations. Also, I have tons of others SEE cases registered in my notes which are similiar to this.

    IEE exemple:
    A IEE-Fi friend often has arguments with his friends. He generates very often ideas and logical concepts. They align a lot with general objectivity even when he doesn't use external sources (often they are only used to confirm his ideas at a later time).
    Yet when someone else shows him a different structure of thought, even if it is wrong, he is very afraid of it. His belief in his own idea seems to waver, despite the quality of the information and structure. Despite the calm tone of the conversation, he immediately tries to argue and make it clear why the other is wrong, making a speech into which he throws bits of information that are disconnected (or that needs a lot of analysis to be properly reconstructed), until the whole argument seems to lose its meaning and the IEE appears very nervous. He falls in his Se role overreacting state.
    He begins to feel a sense of shame, because for fear of the collapse of his structure he has exaggerated in behavior.

    When he argues with a SEE-Fi friend they both "fight" using seemingly unrelated pieces of information relating topics. At the same time, they are both capable of logical thoughts, often very "objective" (as much as a thing may be). They often manage to stand up to ILE arguments. The problem still remains the confidence in their structure. In general, statistically they are found less in the study of scientific subjects, but they do not appear at all illogical or incapable. Their interest could simply be low and not allow them to cultivate those subjects fully and with enough concentration, but if they are passionate enough, anything is possible.

    With Ne subtypes is slightly different. More common IEEs have a reject of Ti. They drain knowledge from others (friends or other sourches, like online sites or youtubers) and make a propaganda of it. They fight for these ideas, despite being constructed by others.
    They may try to impose this vision on others.
    I noticed they sometimes align with unpopular visions just because they see a potential in them: "there must be something good about it, despite being rejected from most. That's because they cant understand it while I can". This is sometimes also a good thing, because they could spot truths other can't see cause prejudice.

    [B][Thread will be edited and improved soon][/B
    Updated 28/08/22: added IEE-Ne exemples
    Last edited by Lesri; 08-28-2022 at 08:27 AM.

  2. #2
    The Prismatic Mirror FaeSoleil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    IEE exemple:
    A IEE friend often has arguments with his friends. He generates very often ideas and logical concepts. They align a lot with general objectivity even when he doesn't use external sources (often they are only used to confirm his ideas at a later time).
    Yet when someone else shows him a different structure of thought, even if it is wrong, he is very afraid of it. His belief in his own idea seems to waver, despite the quality of the information and structure. Despite the calm tone of the conversation, he immediately tries to argue and make it clear why the other is wrong, making a speech into which he throws bits of information that are disconnected (or that needs a lot of analysis to be properly reconstructed), until the whole argument seems to lose its meaning and the IEE appears very nervous. He falls in his Se role overreacting state.
    He begins to feel a sense of shame, because for fear of the collapse of his structure he has exaggerated in behavior.

    When he argues with a SEE friend they both "fight" using seemingly unrelated pieces of information relating topics. At the same time, they are both capable of logical thoughts, often very "objective" (as much as a thing may be). They often manage to stand up to ILE arguments. The problem still remains the confidence in their structure. In general, statistically they are found less in the study of scientific subjects, but they do not appear at all illogical or incapable. Their interest could simply be low and not allow them to cultivate those subjects fully and with enough concentration, but if they are passionate enough, anything is possible.
    So, I'm definitely not even close to a stereotyped IEE (I'm a programmer by trade), but hearing this is interesting to me regardless.

    I personally find arguing with (at least unhealthy) Ti leads extremely frustrating just because of that strong tendency to ignore frameworks that don't match their own. It seems the most useful way to get through to them is to try to understand what they mean/how their internal framework works arguing on their terms. For the Ti doms that use "that doesn't logically make sense under [system]" as an outright defense mechanism, it seems the only real way around them is to pretend you're less capable of logic than you are, and avoid directly threatening them up until the point they can't sustain their point of view. But, well... others seem perfectly fine talking with people with different frameworks, and arguing in those terms. That... is significant more pleasant, if somewhat tiring still for how precise I need to word things as opposed to how I normally do.

    Growing up in heavily Ti biased internet spaces I think basically made me get used to arguing in those terms, so I'm not so vulnerable to falling to Se-role to deal with that particular problem. It's more (again, unhealthy) Fe-bases that end up making me do that.
    C’est ainsi, je ne danse pas pour vous,
    Mais seulement pour le vent.

  3. #3
    adage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Posts
    696
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is really just a summary of what I understood so far.
    Idk why I do that, but I do.

    So Ti is some form of critical thinking that should be criticaly thought about.
    Critical thinking being thinking by yourself, making up your own mind, as much as it is possible.
    Everyone's got that, somewhere.

    The strong and valued base Ti is conscious of it's own framework, it's how the Ti lead views everything, as having had thoughts and having had analyzed them into the most satisfactory order. They defend Ti with Ti because that is what they are operating on, with the occasional creative function taking over the defence.

    The Ti creative defend their base with Ti, generating a framework that makes them logically right out of the blue from whatever's available. It's a rather conscious process, the Ti is not seen as an intruder that must be defeated but as a tool to be wielded and shaped.

    Ti PoLR is unconscious of it's own frame work, distrusts it. When the Ti framework is attacked, they almost feel like their life is in danger. It's happening in an unconscious area they attempt to avoid. They are confronted to an unknown area of themselves that is not taken care of often and it seems full of traps and pitfalls. They see the other's Ti as a trap to avoid at all cost to make their strong valued functions prevail.

    In a way, all three attitude can be argued as defending Ti and therefore being, from an exterior point of view, the same. But it really is about what's happening underneath.

    Something like that.

  4. #4
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post

    Ti PoLR is unconscious of it's own frame work, distrusts it. When the Ti framework is attacked, they almost feel like their life is in danger. It's happening in an unconscious area they attempt to avoid. They are confronted to an unknown area of themselves that is not taken care of often and it seems full of traps and pitfalls. They see the other's Ti as a trap to avoid at all cost to make their strong valued functions prevail.
    Happy to see you came to a conclusion similiar to mine from your sourches! And you explained it well.

    I think they can be somewhat "conscious" about their structure at some degree, but they will try to shut down it's influence (and that of others) in order to "just do" what the valued seek, which is almost always a sort of "freedom". I think this is due to the dimensionality of the function, which is 1D (experience).

    I noticed that others Ti expressions are very often felt by the XEE as "they are envy of me" mixed to fear because what they say could actually be true (and not just that they're envy).

  5. #5
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FaeSoleil View Post
    I personally find arguing with (at least unhealthy) Ti leads extremely frustrating just because of that strong tendency to ignore frameworks that don't match their own. It seems the most useful way to get through to them is to try to understand what they mean/how their internal framework works arguing on their terms. For the Ti doms that use "that doesn't logically make sense under [system]" as an outright defense mechanism, it seems the only real way around them is to pretend you're less capable of logic than you are, and avoid directly threatening them up until the point they can't sustain their point of view. But, well... others seem perfectly fine talking with people with different frameworks, and arguing in those terms. That... is significant more pleasant, if somewhat tiring still for how precise I need to word things as opposed to how I normally do.

    Growing up in heavily Ti biased internet spaces I think basically made me get used to arguing in those terms, so I'm not so vulnerable to falling to Se-role to deal with that particular problem. It's more (again, unhealthy) Fe-bases that end up making me do that.
    It happens the exact same thing to me with LIIs. I feel powerless arguing with them because I know that nothing that I will say will make a difference. Still, I try to not overreact with my role because I know it would made worse the situation with him. When my ILE friend tried to defend my point of view in "enraged mode", the LII just smiled and said he was ridiculus (he looked like a robot when he said this lmao). I think that supervisee in general are way more rational in how to protect themself from the supervisor, so it's hard an IEE loose control with a LII (this is also stated in Supervisor-supervisee description If I remember well).

    I forgot to mention against what sociotype the IEEs (both my friend and me) go in that Se role state. It happens very often with EIIs and (unhealty) ESEs. So it's similiar to what you said too.

    About the "healt" state of these people, I just find hard to say if they are healty or not. I don't argue with every LII, but sometimes haappier is the LII, harder will be to talk with them (in real life).
    I have a sad LII friend who I think is in an unhealthy state, but he is not so cold and rude (just "sad").

    Communication and compatibility in real life is complex and we are humans beings with good and bad traits, and ups and downs in our life. So I can just talk about my experiences

  6. #6
    adage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Posts
    696
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    Happy to see you came to a conclusion similiar to mine from your sourches! And you explained it well.

    I think they can be somewhat "conscious" about their structure at some degree, but they will try to shut down it's influence (and that of others) in order to "just do" what the valued seek, which is almost always a sort of "freedom". I think this is due to the dimensionality of the function, which is 1D (experience).

    I noticed that others Ti expressions are very often felt by the XEE as "they are envy of me" mixed to fear because what they say could actually be true (and not just that they're envy).
    Thanks. I'm more trying to follow your reasonning than reaching conclusion rn.

    I guess 'unconscious' may have not been the best word, more like they want Ti to disappear so the lack of consciousness of Ti PoLR really is not wanting to see it even in themselves, which suggest being self-conscious.
    I meant unconscious more like someone putting their hands over their ears and going "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU LALALA" and that can be any PoLR.
    This attitude probably makes it worse, lol. And is on the extreme side.

    This envy and fear thing is interesting. I grew up in an environment where my PoLR was heavily valued, so I stood out and was somewhat envied but also had a hard time connecting wondering "what is it they got that I don't?"
    It reminds me of when I came accross an alpha SF saying "NT functions are essential for communication" while a gamma NT said it was SF functions that were crutial for communication. Both seemed to live around opposite quadra peeps a lot. It was kinda sad to see.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This thread serves as a good illustration of Ti PoLR.

  8. #8
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nephilthoth View Post
    This thread serves as a good illustration of Ti PoLR.
    Thanks! I want to improve it. Next step will be explaining:
    - differences between Ti PolR and Suggestive with simple but clear exemples;
    - Ti Role vs Ti PolR with exemples through mirror relation.

  9. #9
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,671
    Mentioned
    275 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    Thanks! I want to improve it. Next step will be explaining:
    - differences between Ti PolR and Suggestive with simple but clear exemples;
    - Ti Role vs Ti PolR with exemples through mirror relation.
    as a PolR actually can and does function as a kinda dual identifier.

    For instance: My SEE brother plays a certain game and he somehow found out a certain "deck construction" that landed him a rather disproportional victory vs. defeat given all the other BS surrounding it.

    It's a gatcha game but he got in on it early and thus had easy/free access to all "4-star" units and he told me of how proud he was of his "F2P" team comp that regularly wiped the floor with whale accounts. He hasn't spent much actual money on it because, well, he landed on a hell of a combo as a F2P player.

    He didn't exactly understand how and why until I laid it out for him. Once I did he puffed up and felt way better about himself.

    This is likely why they say your "demonstrative" function is so appealing to your dual. After all, it perfectly matches their PolR.

    You just instinctually put it to them so easily yet so... gentility.

  10. #10
    Seed my wickedness Sanguine Miasma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    7,533
    Mentioned
    320 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    If (a>b or a<b) then
    a≠b
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    NO Private messages, please. Use Discord instead.

  11. #11
    Manatroid92's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    Australia
    TIM
    Likely EIE-H
    Posts
    215
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think this is similar to how I thought of Ti-PoLR, but this a great read, I’m glad I was able to confirm and expand my understanding of it.

    Thanks, @Lesri !

  12. #12
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,634
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ti is a logical construct done by one person. The next step of such a subjective logical defintion should be real world check if a Ti construct should be applied by other people.
    Only if a Ti definition pass the test with Te (or Fe) it can be considered as objective valid.

  13. #13
    Lesri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Only if a Ti definition pass the test with Te (or Fe) it can be considered as objective valid.
    I think this is not always true, but it depends.
    Ti to work (in lead types at least) has to ignore Te, which are present believes.

    A Ti lead could read some apparent Te informations and say "Bullsh1t, in my opinion it is different" and build its own structure if he thinks to have better methods. But sometimes its just better for himself, because he works in a specific way with his mind.

    With mathematics and science in general it is more easy to make a Ti contruct "objective", and so a new Te material for others. This because there are quantitative measures that proves that Ti is right (or is wrong).

    What is hard to exstimate is how Ti lead behave with abatract thinking that cannot be mathematically be proven, such as people, philosophy, ethics etc.

    What I told about my LII friends for exemple falls in not-mathematical but biology subject, and he said the works of tons of people that studied and analyzed for years these matter (Te common knowledge) is bullsh1t. His thinking isn't proved and never could be, because human body is not mathematics, but he treat it like it was.

    People matters can fall in Fe rather than Ti at first, but still it is filtered by the latter: "feelings have to make logical sense". Still they are vulnerable to feelings, so they could make choices that contraddicts what they say.

  14. #14
    WinnieW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    TIM
    alpha NT
    Posts
    1,634
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    I think this is not always true, but it depends.
    Ti to work (in lead types at least) has to ignore Te, which are present believes.
    Yeah, it depends but the base function is always present, and that can cause problems, eg. at work, when using Te methods are required.
    Second problematic area of Ti as ego function is building a system of reasoning that nobody else is able to understand, besides the creator of the system of reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    A Ti lead could read some apparent Te informations and say "Bullsh1t, in my opinion it is different" and build its own structure if he thinks to have better methods.
    Ok, I had to scientific approach in my mind, in that case your method will be validated by other people.
    In private life always insisting doing things by your way will cause trouble with other people. Counterbalance with an ethical judging function is adviced, at least from my own experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    But sometimes its just better for himself, because he works in a specific way with his mind.
    Yeah, sometimes, but not always. The problem with Ti base is that the system is the blueprint for the own way of life.
    The powerful tool is the creative function, because you can balance it better with other functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    With mathematics and science in general it is more easy to make a Ti contruct "objective", and so a new Te material for others. This because there are quantitative measures that proves that Ti is right (or is wrong).
    In science usually Ti and Te are used together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    What is hard to exstimate is how Ti lead behave with abatract thinking that cannot be mathematically be proven, such as people, philosophy, ethics etc.
    No function does work in an isolated manner. A judgement function does not work without the information of a perception function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesri View Post
    People matters can fall in Fe rather than Ti at first, but still it is filtered by the latter: "feelings have to make logical sense". Still they are vulnerable to feelings, so they could make choices that contraddicts what they say.
    There is a missunderstanding. The so called feelings are emotions, as I understand that statement.
    Fe and Fi are judgements on ethical values, not based on raw unprocessed emotions.

    Value judgement means is something good or bad, logical judgement is right or wrong.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 09-05-2022 at 12:27 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •