Gamma and Alphas - where does it all go wrong?

[velveteen]

Hello,

ESI here

From my experience, LII's are intelligent, calm and collected people. But somewhere down the line, we clash. In corporate environments, they usually want things done a certain way. I don't take well to this and find their methods extremely unrealistic because they are not applicable to everyone's mode of working or lifestyle. ILI usually want things done in a certain way too, but make for better managers as they are laidback, take people's limitations into consideration and are more open minded to testing various methods.

Recently I had an awful falling out with an LII I have been friends with for over 2 decades. The relationship just hit a point where I felt suffocated despite feeling the most understood by her initially. She was the only person I could talk about more deeper things with growing up. Time passed, and as of a few years ago I have tried to maintain a healthy distance from friends I grew up with as a child in a kind of soul searching effort. But I feel I unnecessarily held onto this relationship despite having so many issues with her inferior Se.

Enter an ESE: When I psychologically distanced myself from our friendship group the LII and ESE did not take well to it, completely dismissing my right to put myself first. I was quite aware I was in some weird loop for a period of time that I was trying to get myself out of, but neither seemed okay with me distancing myself and were demanding more answers from me than I was able to mentally or emotionally deliver. The LII complained that she didn't have time for a "superficial" friendship and she expects more from her friendships. I found this extremely invasive and hypocritical on her part. The argument was horrible and unprecedented, she kept soliciting advice and criticising me, treating me like a child who needed to be warned against the big bad world.

She would put down my initiatives, quarrel, criticise, question my actions and decisions and my Fe did not handle this well. She prioritised her ego over our friendship and I had never felt more betrayed. So I severed ties.

Despite Alpha's generosity and friendliness, I noticed a clique like quality to this specific dynamic I was in with these two individuals. The demand for emotional expression does my head in because it almost feels like they're trying to get a reaction out of you sometimes. There was also a sense of jealousy inherent in the ESE particularly that made it impossible for me to introduce new people to the group.

[ENJoymENT]

In my opinion, the major source of contention between Alphas & Gammas is the different valuing of Fe or Fi. Gammas can easily alienate Alphas when we violate basic tenets of Fe. This is because Fe is their primary base or foundation from which everything else extends from as an indication of common courtesy or decency. Therefore if you violate this, right off the bat you aren’t even meeting the lowest threshold of social conformity. From the Gamma perspective however, we see our behaviour as an attempt to be authentic with other people—which we see as more important than being “superficially Fe”. If we didn’t care about someone we could easily “act” superficially Fe, however we actually see it as a sign of respect for us to make the effort to be honest and keep it real.

In contrast, alternate ways of thinking (Te vs. Ti) result in less conflict because it doesn’t really matter how someone arrives at a solution, as long as it works. Especially in the workplace—people are far more likely to forgive or overlook faulty or incompatible Te/Ti, as opposed to when a colleague is viewed as purposely rude for violating the unwritten (in this case Alpha) social culture of the workplace. Yes I agree that to Gammas, Alphas can appear cliquey…this is because they can all successfully participate in Fe together, all the while not understanding why an Fi-valuing type is (in their opinion) purposely trying to ruin it/being a stick in the mud. A great example is when I was having a large party and one of the adults randomly started chasing some of the children around the house exclaiming “I’m a-gonna get you!”�� while the kids squealed in delight and ran everywhere. And then…as if responding to a dog whistle, 3 other adult Alphas immediately joined in the game with flawless Alpha bonhomie. The funniest part was my SLI friend, my ILI friend and I all looking at one another in mortification thinking “we are not going to have to participate in this are we??”���� The grand finale was when I saw my LIE son grab his lacrosse stick as a cover and flee outside. From the Alpha point of view—why WOULDN’T we join in for the enjoyment of other people, which is really reasonable. And from the Gamma point of view, we have learned through life experience not to participate in things that aren’t authentic because honestly we would probably ruin the game with our painfully forced participation. Live & let live. ��

[ENJoymENT]

Hello,

ESI here

From my experience, LII's are intelligent, calm and collected people. But somewhere down the line, we clash…neither seemed okay with me distancing myself and were demanding more answers from me than I was able to mentally or emotionally deliver. The LII complained that she didn't have time for a "superficial" friendship and she expects more from her friendships. I found this extremely invasive and hypocritical on her part. The argument was horrible and unprecedented

I think the word “superficial” reveals the crux of the incompatibility between Alphas and Gammas. The two Alphas view your actions as flakiness—in that you went from the extreme of being soulfully open about yourself, to now (according to them) inexplicably throwing up walls and rejecting them. Therefore to them—you come across as a superficial friend—unreliable…someone who can’t be emotionally trusted to conform to the basic rules of Alpha civility and decency. In contrast, from your Gamma point of view, you felt vulnerable and thus regretted your past personal confessions, once you realized that you weren’t necessarily emotionally safe in that environment. To Gammas, the loud (and to us superficial) Alpha group environment can come off as somewhat cult like. You likely viewed your past revelations to LII as private one-on-one confessions to be protected, as opposed to becoming ammunition that could be used at a later time to keep you in “the cult”. You thus regretted making the confessions because rather than achieving the desired effect of establishing an unbreakable foundation of trust, the confessions instead turned into—in your opinion—emotional protection that you naively relinquished when your guard was down. And you therefore felt you had to establish psychological distance— which in my opinion is ALWAYS the correct action when it comes to Alpha/Gamma relationships. Because once we opt to take down the barriers of that outwardly superficial civility (i.e. which is what forms the actual emotional protection for BOTH sides), the rotten underbelly of misunderstanding comes to the surface and things end up even more damaged. It is in the Gamma’s nature to seek intimacy by getting close personally at a one-on-one level. We don’t realize that that is likely impossible with Alphas, because they are innately seeking group compatibility—which means the whole thing then becomes more than we initially signed up for. And we just aren’t comfortable being THAT vulnerable, because it is no longer within our control.

Just within my own family, I have a LOT of experience with Alpha/Gamma relationships: ALPHA: SEI mother, ILE father, LII ex-husband, ESE ex mother-in-law, ILE son, ESE son. GAMMA: because I also have a LIE son and an ILI son, I have been able to see the varied results from parenting all of my children in the same way. In fact I have the ultimate control group from which to isolate the effect of an independent variable (ie. parenting), as I have a set of identical twins, one Alpha (ESE), the other Gamma (ILI). Socionics has definitely taught me to parent my children differently. I can be completely honest, and do not have to sugarcoat when giving advice to my LIE and ILI sons, and they will immediately accept and appreciate the “help” in the spirit it is intended—eagerly offloading anything from their plate with the overall intention of efficiently crossing off tasks from their list. In contrast, when I see my ESE avoiding dealing with something that is therefore causing him stress, and I try to troubleshoot/offer my help to facilitate relieving him of that stress, my attempts to help are seen as me purposely intending to stress him out MORE by bringing it up. To him, my blustering attempts to rush in and fix everything so that we can then relax, are seen as intrusive and insensitive. So now with him I tolerate long leisurely phone discussions and wait for him to bring anything up. This is painful as well as woefully inefficient to me, because I wish he would just show trust and be real with me— because (in my opinion), certainly by now I’ve proven myself that I have his back, will uphold his privacy, and only want to help?? In contrast, I can call my LIE son while he’s working and fully engaged in something else, omit ANY small talk, and present an option in 8 words, and he in response will tweak and improve my plan with 5 other words, and we can then hang up and both feel satisfaction at our teamwork and crossing something off our to-do list. There just is a basic foundation of understanding when communicating within one’s own Quadra.

A question I will frequently ask when honestly evaluating a particular relationship is #1) could it actually be feasible to go on a cross-country road trip with this person? And question #2) could I actually ENJOY the experience? Funny how upon initial consideration of those questions, that you can immediately cross certain people off of that list, whereas with others it would be the trip of a lifetime. Some relationships just have to remain on a superficial level with some emotional distance remaining intact as a buffer, in order to prevent toxic misunderstandings. Like you aptly pointed out, with Alpha/Gamma relationships, it doesn’t matter how wonderful the individual people are, it’s only a matter of time before each has to eventually discard the superficial act they are engaging in to mimic compatibility, and revert to their natural states and then once that occurs, both sides once again end up feeling alienated and damaged.

[velveteen]

This was so insightful and the “cult” element was eerily accurate, just from my perspective. It hit the nail on the head.

[velveteen]

LII would defend ESE’s cruel behaviour saying it was a “joke”. This was when I expressed that condescending me and poking fun at something that I had told them in confidence was hurting me, so to me it felt like LII was invalidating my deepest feelings.

ESE’s expectations of me were very confusing too, as I was never really close to her.

Very painful dynamic.

[velveteen]

It also didn’t help how badly we clashed on an intellectual level.

[CptLandhawk]

I'm an SEE

From my point of view Alphas see the world as one big house everyone lives on and plays in the yard and everyone does what they want.

To gammas, the world is several houses and yards with fences around em. You can visit me, but while you're here respect my rules and if you trespass I get to shoot you.

I've learned to understand this as I've gotten older. Alphas see the harmony of the group as the priority, not their autonomy. I have a tendency to put boundaries in place even in the middle of socializing. If everyone is having a good time and I suddenly gaze at someone hard and say "Don't do that"; In the mind of an Alpha Quadra I'm being hostile and causing awkwardness, when to me I'm making it clear there's something I don't want you to do. It's natural as day to me, and if someone was equally direct I wouldn't even be phased. I prefer clarity in that regard, as long as the person is in the right.

I'm Fe demo and Fe- so I have a tendency to "herd" people in groups. This takes the form of calling people out mid event and setting them straight when they act out. Or when i see some sort of passive aggressiveness manipulation, or pettiness happening. I wanna ask Alphas if this looks like bullying to you. I notice when I do it, my alpha acquaintances, even the ones I'm not actively after get uncomfortable.

There is this SEI girl...bless her heart she's sweet, but I've told her 100 times that just cause I may not be as smiley as everyone else doesn't mean I'm not having fun. Sometimes I have nothing to say. To be fair I have a habit of showing what I think on my face instantly; which means if a joke was corny I just raise an eyebrow while everyone fake laughs. Alphas don't always say something but I can tell that makes em uncomfortable.


I would like to hear some alpha perspective on this

Also to Alpha NTs...I don't give a rat's ass if we live in a simulation or not. That's useless info and a waste of time to me.

[ouronis]

so alphas = people I don't like

Not every alpha acts the same

[Adam Strange]

Lol. It doesn't just go wrong; it goes wrong FAST.

[CptLandhawk]

so alphas = people I don't like

Not every alpha acts the same

Of course not. I knew an LII, my supposed conflictor that I bonded with over cars. He has a supercharged 600 horsepower Pontiac GTO. Among these NTs are ILEs that I've had good Interactions with. I'm talking about how it goes generally in my previous post. Not every single alpha.

[ouronis]

Of course not. I knew an LII, my supposed conflictor that I bonded with over cars. He has a supercharged 600 horsepower Pontiac GTO. Among these NTs are ILEs that I've had good Interactions with. I'm talking about how it goes generally in my previous post. Not every single alpha.

yawn

[CptLandhawk]

�� Little heavy on the car talk eh?

Not sorry

[Adam Strange]

�� Little heavy on the car talk eh?

Not sorry

My LII sister also has an unusual little sports car with ridiculous horsepower. I can't remember the make or model anymore, but it looks like a Greyhound bus embryo and she won't let me anywhere near it.

Given my track record of destroying cars, that's perfectly understandable.

[CptLandhawk]

My LII sister also has an unusual little sports car with ridiculous horsepower. I can't remember the make or model anymore, but it looks like a Greyhound bus embryo and she won't let me anywhere near it.

Given my track record of destroying cars, that's perfectly understandable.

Greyhound bus embryo? Doesn't exactly sound sporty but I have a few ideas of small cars that could match that. Any other details you can give me?

[Adam Strange]

Greyhound bus embryo? Doesn't exactly sound sporty but I have a few ideas of small cars that could match that. Any other details you can give me?

It is a Nissan, and I think maybe a GT-R, but I'm not sure about that. It has a rear wing and spoilers and really just looks like like an econobox with a lot of weird add-ons, although I'm sure it was ungodly expensive. Really, it looks like a Kia Soul that some high school kids got hold of in auto shop and modified to their taste.

She likes it, but I've never seen her drive it, to the best of my recollection.

[CptLandhawk]

At first I thought r35 skyline gtr, but you said econobox
Sounds like the Juke-R. GTR version of the economy nissan juke. If im right it's a disgustingly formidable machine for what it is

[Lord Pixel]

LIE_SEI.jpg

[velveteen]

We had a SEI friend leave this group, too because of the ESE and LII. SEI girl was my best friend going through a really tough time financially and her home life was troubling - LII and ESE were demanding of her despite knowing about her troubled life. It’s like they didn’t care. ESE was worse about it than LII in this regard - she seemed more intentional, while LII seemed aloof. SEI girl messed up really bad and betrayed LII’s trust - so she just left the group without bothering to mend the relationship.

ESE does not appreciate my blunt and direct approach.

LII gets cranky when I don’t do things their way.

SEI is flakey.

ILE are absolutely gems and somehow the only alphas I get along with in the long term despite them being my conflict partner.

This is just my perspective. But the moment I started setting boundaries, they started calling me a superficial friend despite them not being even to handle my deeper feelings which I was very open about - it’s like my loyalty meant nothing to them. They demand, I give, our values clash and it all falls apart. So I stopped giving, and to them that makes me flakey or fake while their disregard for my deeper feelings made them seem fake to me.

All I’m saying is that I noticed a trend with these alphas, and I’ve just realised what’s worth my energy and what isn’t.

[Renna]

Best thing with conflict Quadra is to avoid anything about personal life and stay at normal friend level.

Alpha NT judge me about my pov with family relationship (how detached and cold I a, how easy for me to cut ties in relationships)

And I judge them about how they deal with their personal problems in an inefficient way (talk to me about their family problems countless of time without anything changes at all - wtf)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Alphas are friendlier and 'nicer' but are kind of stupid with what people are actually capable of- you are right that ILIs are usually great at understanding other people's limitations and personal willpower- they are often great at this and are excellent at delegating the right task to the right specific person, but the downside is they often come off as too rude and lack Fe friendliness and when UNHEALTHY cough cough - can just be downright sadistic or cruel. So it is a Fe vs Fi valuing thing too- but also Ne vs Ni as well and probably Te vs Ti and just... everything.

Alphas stupidly push people in ways that aren't natural to them- Gammas are MUCH better with this type of thing I've noticed, especially in the working world. It's like a dumb Ne valuing 'you can be anything!' type of ideal that's stupid and doesn't really work out.

HR Managers are very Delta to me lol.