Does subtypes affect dimensional strength?

[Squirrel]

What's your opinion ?

To explain what happened in detail

Today I got into a little bit of a stupid discussion with someone about the possibility of a being a different type between MBTI and Socionics.

anyway , during our conversation, I explained to him how the subtype strengthens certain functions and weakens the rest, and he answered me that the power of the subtype does not change the power of dimensions anything and the creative type will still have 4D leading function even if it was a very strong creative subtype

I searched a little and did not find anything to support his words at all. what I found is the same as what I said, and he just responded that the leading function remains strong, but it apparently disappears from the person. (which is something I can fully understand if a person has a weak creative subtype, but in the case of a strong creative subtype, it would be foolish to think that you could combine role function and leading function and use both of them equally while they are heading in opposite directions , unless you're an alien Superman )

So , does subtypes changes dimensional strength ?

[Tallmo]

What's your opinion ?

To explain what happened in detail

Today I got into a little bit of a stupid discussion with someone about the possibility of a being a different type between MBTI and Socionics.

anyway , during our conversation, I explained to him how the subtype strengthens certain functions and weakens the rest, and he answered me that the power of the subtype does not change the power of dimensions anything and the creative type will still have 4D leading function even if it was a very strong creative subtype

I searched a little and did not find anything to support his words at all. what I found is the same as what I said, and he just responded that the leading function remains strong, but it apparently disappears from the person. (which is something I can fully understand if a person has a weak creative subtype, but in the case of a strong creative subtype, it would be foolish to think that you could combine role function and leading function and use both of them equally while they are heading in opposite directions , unless you're an alien Superman )

So , does subtypes changes dimensional strength ?

The discussion is kindof pointless because mbti makes too many mistakes, functions are not correct etc. Extroverts can find a type but for introverts its a mess. You cant compare with a broken system.

[Bethanyclaire]

Sometimes I think that if you have quite a pronounced subtype in can make you look like the other subtype..but an odd version of it.

[ILoveChinchillas]

Intuitively, the subtype system entails a measurement beyond 4D, but I don't see any writing to support any conclusions about this. It kind of leads me to believe that the subtype system is incompatible with Model A, and that the subtypes would be better measured as a matter of conscious preference (eg. an LIE Te would tend to run Te much more than any other function.)

[BaruchJorgell]

For the same type, the functional dimensionalities will be different, depending on the model. For instance, in Model A, an IEI will have 4D Fi, but only 3D Fi in Model G. At the same time, the notion of dimensionality, in each model, doesn't hold the same meaning.

In model A or in model G, the dimensionality of a function is not affected by the subtype.

[godslave]

Intuitively, the subtype system entails a measurement beyond 4D, but I don't see any writing to support any conclusions about this. It kind of leads me to believe that the subtype system is incompatible with Model A, and that the subtypes would be better measured as a matter of conscious preference (eg. an LIE Te would tend to run Te much more than any other function.)

Imho, DCNH is not "optimized" for Model A. It's like a Windows 10 app that could be run in a windows 7 system but without the same guarantee of stability. DCNH, as I understand it, is like a configuration of Libidinal Energy distribution which is reflected in a "Type carrier" behaviors.
The Type structure is rigid every function is in its place but their expression depends on the energy distribution which is altered by the accentuation/solicitation of certain functions. The more we do a thing, the more our brain facilitates it. It's like muscle memory, Katas in Karate or the mastery of a musical instrument. For instance, If we take a look at Rafael Nadal's left arm, it's disproportionate compare to his right arm because of the way he plays and train. His left arm is Dominant like his DCNH subtype imho. In a similar way, an accentuated function consumes more energy than its contrepart function this will theoretically weaken the contrepart in proportion e.g. Ni accentuated weakens Se and so on ( note that I'm not sure about that).

Since Model G is an Energy Model, the notion of Model A Dimensionality is not entirely reflected but only correlated. Besides, what could be the criteria of measurements beyond 4D ?

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index...._DCNH_Subtypes

An alternate path presupposes the strengthening of various functions within the framework of the classical sociomodel (Model A). Thing is that the expression (and noticeability) of a function is not [always] equal to its position in model A, its hierarchical place within the structure of the psyche. In spite of being equally located, i.e. occupying one and same position in the sociomodel, functions can have completely different degrees of manifestation. This setup, according to the tenets of this second, alternative approach, forms each subtype’s special behavioral features. This concept, in contrast to the combinatorial-dichotomous approach mentioned above, can be named functional-positional.

Please excuse the rambling and the mess.

[myresearch]

Subtype doesnt affect dimmension because position of IE determines dimmension of IE and subtype doesnt change position hence dimmension. Position of IE is one of the core elements of socionics, if we put that in the trash, everything would crumble.


Model G and Model A and any other known model do not conflict in this sense.

MBTI is whole different story, it is not socionics, lots of things conflict.

Subtype, enhancements, accuentations can change the strength and usage in the limits of same dimmension.

[FaeSoleil]

Remember that both Model A and Model G are descriptive not prescriptive. In Model A's terms: Is the prediction that there's roughly 16 different patterns in terms of which functions produce/work with 4D information, and nobody deviates significantly from it really justifiable? This does not remotely resemble my own personal experience.

If subtypes affect dimensionality, it'd be to *describe* people who act as if they have higher dimensionality on an unusual function/combination of functions rather than that the subtype itself somehow abstractly affects dimensionality.

[Squirrel]

The discussion is kindof pointless because mbti makes too many mistakes, functions are not correct etc. Extroverts can find a type but for introverts its a mess. You cant compare with a broken system.

Somehow agree tbh , I called the discussion stupid because I knew it wouldn't be useful but I just took it as a way out of the study pressures that I'm going through right now

[Disturbed]

it seems to me like if it did, then it would invalidate model a, so i'm going to say no. it does mean differences in appearance and behavior and parts of cognition.

creative function subtypes tend to be more energetic and throughout their whole lifetime, they tend to delve into more things that are brand new to them and very different from anything they've tried before; base function subtypes tend to settle on one thing (career) and work with that more... creative function subtypes tend to have more skills and specific knowledge. in most cases, in addition to being more energetic and have more diverse skills, the creative function subtypes have more feminine appearance, but eie-fe and lie-te are more feminine/beautiful looking compared to eie-ni and lie-ni.

most people would find lsi-ti and esi-fi quite monotonous, lethargic, and not very knowledgeable (especially monotonous), while finding lsi-se and esi-se quite unpredictable and willing to try everything and having a lot more experience.

there is a consensus that ile-ne are less monotonous, but from what little i've seen of them and from how much i've seen of ile-ti, the ile-ne seem like homebodies who converge on one project, one career for their life, don't make many changes to it, while the ile-ti are far faster in speech, movement, thinking, more expressive, dynamic, nomadic, unpredictable, tend to fill in more details, and frequently change things (although not spouses).

[Bethanyclaire]

Somehow agree tbh , I called the discussion stupid because I knew it wouldn't be useful but I just took it as a way out of the study pressures that I'm going through right now

sorry to jump in..(if I’ve missed something) I thought it was a good question. Socionics is a long way from what it could be. Asking questions and not being scared to say things that you’re not 100% confident about are good ways to start discussion. We’re all looking for answers even it’s slow we can progress in our knowledge of socionics..we need more than Gulenko (no disrespect to the man). We do need fresh ways of looking at things and that’s hard so it’s good to pick people’s brains

[Sol]

subtypes, dimensional strength - is not Socionics

Jung type is what kind of functions prevail in the consciousness. Not in a moment, but longer time. It's stable, same as you have stably one dominating hand.

Any function of 4 (T-F, S-N) may become stronger or weaker, to get better skills, more presence in the consciousness. This difference is not stable, same as muscles may degrade or become better.
When you develop one kind of same function (alike Ti), this develops its other kind (Te). The difference may exist only in concrete skills and knowledge between them, but not in strenght. Alike having Ti type you'd know more math formulas (Ti) and knew lesser random facts than Te type, in average.
The reason is that it's impossibly to use only Ti or Te, - they both are used in the same time. It's consciousness game, that the attention processes in a moment only one kind, while other kind stays as "supposed" alike in a shadow. For example, Ti is an interpretation, but facts which you interpret relate to Te.

[Bethanyclaire]

What is dimensional strength

[Beautiful sky]

There are as many subtypes as there are human beings

[lavos]

(which is something I can fully understand if a person has a weak creative subtype, but in the case of a strong creative subtype, it would be foolish to think that you could combine role function and leading function and use both of them equally while they are heading in opposite directions , unless you're an alien Superman )

So , does subtypes changes dimensional strength ?

This exactly what happens. Producing subtypes try to find the "balance" between base and role, but always base is the one that holds more importance. Producing types have a good role function similar to that of a semidual.

What the subtype affects is which functions in model B you actually have (whether broken or complete elements) and the flavor of expression. But dimensionality as it is defined in Model A stays the same.