Ni is valued in business. Everyone says "Have a vision" "Plan ahead" "Catch trends". Entrepreneurs value Ni alot. And Tech values Ni. Tech is largely Ni/Te/Ti in the states. Tons of kids went to college and read a ton of Ni motivational quote "Have a strong vision in order to be successful".Originally Posted by Claudius
This is why I need to stop hating IEIs so much. I’ve seen one of them recently explain to a sensor how someone who is quiet is holding inner turmoil. The sensor actually thought that person was just exactly what their face showed and it’s impossible they can be any other mood whatsoever.
yeah it's the Ni that just unconciously wants to get to the root of things. when they notice someone lying for example, they usually think about why the person lied, what are the underlying reasons for someone to do that etc. I think IEI are better psychologists than ILI and LII for example because logical types care less about other people and might not be inclined to invest a lot of time into strangers. for sensing types, especially Ni PolR, it is almost impossible to grasp hidden internal motivations of other people.
I was thinking about a very important aspect of ESE's Ni PolR, and it is very useful to notice them from the outside.
They are very anxious and have difficulty planning, and it seems that for this reason they search for some "spiritual" guidance, which is superstitious or religious. They need to cover their fear.
Every ESE I know loves horoscope, even males. They read it and share a lot of things about it on social medias. Obviously not everyone really believes in it, they know it's just a game, but the compulsivity they have in sharing so much things about it makes their superstition clearly shining through. It's like they think "I know it's not true, but I'll hold on to anything to think things will be okay (because I'm afraid)". I think their Ne mobilizing covers their Ni PolR. They try to joke a lot and seek joviality often so as not to think about the negavity that the need to deal with Ni brings to them. They complain a lot about things and something use horoscope to "joke" about it.
This is a similiar principle to that which makes many of them believe in karma or religion in general. Some of them makes good actions just because they hope to be rewarded by "karma"/"God".
Surely I explained it very badly, but I am sure it is a trait that allows you to type many ese in a very easy and trivial way.
SEEs are also very similar in this, but theirs is a real suggestion to it. I noticed a lot of SEE are very prone to speak about the "scheme behind things", while ESEs treat this as a game and seem extremely disinterested in discussing things like philosophy or spiritual concepts for their own sake. SEEs are opened and interested to discussions relating Ni, despite remaining very superficial. Infact, this brings them to believe too much in conspiracy theories.
Jung explains this magnificently in his book Psychological Types (as I mentioned in the previous post). Ironic that MBTI didn't take this into consideration, but socionics did.
Low dimensional Ni is more about improper timing. Tending to live at your own pace.
Ni is creating and recognizing symbols in the external world to know when to act. It's not really about "having a vision for the future", it's just they tend to exclude a lot of details and create symbols that informs them on when to take action, and when not to.
Again, Ni itself is not responsible for "planning" in the stereotypical sense. That would take a rational function.
Yeah I explained it very badly. Thanks for clarifing definitions.
I dind't mean they just find it hard to plan, but more that they are often uninterested in eccessive planning (for what you said, "they tend to live at their own pace", Si creative), but at the same time they feel a sort of guilt and fear related to keep that pace, while SEIs have not this problem in general. And this makes them do some of the things I said (and it is connected very well to what you said about symbols).
An exemple to this guilt is their use of demonstrative. They will start speaking about things like money, the importance of power, etc. almost to make the other think they are actually pursuing these goals, while often they are uninterested in it (Se demonstrative/unvalued).
It's like they think the world is expecting from them more Se, and so they gives an appearance of interest for it. This is something about demonstrative functions in general.
Types with Ni in the superego also have a more concrete problem - they're at war with time, constantly. Sometimes it moves too slow, sometimes too fast, sometimes there's too much, sometimes there's not enough - however it may be, it stresses me out. I cannot easily perceive how much time something will take, when to start, what will happen if I work at a set pace etc. For the extraverted rationals, this usually means starting way too soon on a project. For the introverted irrationals, however... It means demon-possessed work in the last few parts of the timespan.
Getting confused when someone says something entirely reasonable because of poor understanding of cause and effect. On the other side of things, over reacting to something completely predictable, like s person not putting on their turn signal driving. Another one might be that you seem to repeat the same thing over and over again, only to ignore it when said thing is actually useful. Hindsight is 20:20. Low Ni type people fail to recognize the difference between hindsight and being capable of doing something in the moment. When another person brings up a problem with their plan, they will generally struggle to adapt.
I think driving is a good one. Se/Ni users probably are decent at driving in that they learn the patterns better, while Si/Ne users probably are better at reacting. Ne users being the worst drivers, but I’m not sure about that. Some people tend to be incredibly fast drivers, some people are slow, and some people are oblivious. I’d have to think, but the SEI tends to be a good driver but generally oblivious, while I’m a cautious driver that makes mistakes. Of course the SEI gets really emotional when things don’t go their way, which because of poor Ni they tend to not see things that are easy to understand. For example, person pulls out without turn signal, ‘How did that happen’.
I honestly liken them to being simultaneously over skeptical and naive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_DarkAngelFireWolf69
Just not thinking ahead really.
LSE roommate is staying with me and my ILE roommate unauthorized, because he's not on the lease. We tried to get him on the lease, so he mailed the leasing office his pay stub for proof of income, but it had our address on it. So now the leasing office suspects that me and ILE already moved him in before he got on the lease. We could get kicked out for this. When we usually pay the rent, it's with 2 money orders, but for some reason this time LSE decided to go ahead and put his 3rd of the rent on his own money order, making us end up with 3 money orders, this is after the leasing office is already suspicious that he's an unauthorized resident, not good timing. He just Te'd to got the his 3rd of the rent to us quickly before he thought "If I do this, this bad thing could most likely happen."
They over stress for immediate things that are not that urgent. Yet seem completely fine letting certain things go that although may not appear urgent to them with there two eyes now have potential to evolve into something bigger and thus is more important and urgent.
My dad has some chicken. He don’t like me letting them come out too "early" cause it stress him when they scream ect he feel the need to tell them to shut up or go check when it’s nothing that bad. Yet he seem fine letting them days without eating properly since there is nothing really visible until things get really bad. He try to let them the longest he can without coming out ect thinking it’s gaining time trying to avoid but that’s just making the problem bigger. You can’t cheat the body that way i saw that problem too with my mom and feeding peoples, they think that if you feed someone one time all the damage that occurred during the period they didn’t eat disappear immediately and then they blame others for eating too much or cheating when they created this.
Not according to some forumites. Big 5 IS socionics, to them.
There were many LSE on this site before you showed up. It goes through cycles.Not being on this site
On another note, I get a kick out of the currant meme "sensors are dumb airheads incapable of complex thought". Socionics is just clearly way beyond their scope of practise.
They are to busy rotating tires, or decorating houses, or fighting people in MMA rings. All the billions of sensors on Earth throughout all of human history.
Oh haha, yeah when they try to solve immediate desperate problems and just end up making them worse. Haha.
That's a bad idea. Even if he has the occasional good observation.lol it was a joke timber. I’m going off of Alive’s typing methods
It's more about your perception that not being interested in typology equals being dumb tbh. I don't think I have ever mentioned that sensing types are dumb on this site. In certain aspects they are smarter because they don't invest a significant amount of their time in a theory without a proof.
Last edited by Alive; 09-26-2022 at 09:12 PM.
Sensors typically need to experience something before they would believe it. It's not necessarily the facts, it's the experience and living through it. If you wanna convince a sensor, make it happen in real life. Many low Ni people might have trouble seeing opportunities and possibilities around them, which gets them into a conservative and sometimes self-defeating attitude about things. It's common for them to repeat negative patterns that an Ni lead has already figured out/"lived" a thousand times in their head. For a high Ni user you might not understand this because it comes easy to you as it comes easy to them to work on "practical" matters. If you're a high Ni user remember that you are not talking to a fellow Ni human. It's very easy for Ni egos to put things together and it's not a stereotype. Concept building is not the strong suit of sensors.
Intuitives, specially Ni people, are typically considered more insightful and this is true. It's not the role of sensors, it's the role of Ni leads to use their insights to guide people in the right direction, hence the fortune teller or bringer of bad truths trope. The good thing about low Ni people is once they see it, they follow and some of them have higher capabilities to continue the vision. Ni leads just to need make the vision happen for sensors to understand and continue the vision that is worth it.
Some sensors do not have much capabilities to distinguish what is real and what is not or that they don't want them to be blurred too much because they cannot deal with the imaginary very much. Many of them take me literally because they see me as not being able to understand that I'm comfortable with dealing with concepts and acknowledge them as just concepts unlike them. It's common for me to say something and they wouldn't believe me but when it happens they would realize that I'm actually right all along. This is frustrating, and I had the tendency to explain the why but I found out that the best way to agree is to show it. But the best thing is you show it once, they pick it up easily and can do it multiple times. It's like domino effect.
It's not Ni ego's role to execute, it's low Ni's role. I cannot deal with heavy stuff. So what I do is I ask help from a sensor and tell them exactly how they are gonna do it. If I don't tell them, specially Se egos, they just break things or get frustrated with extra effort. It's common for sensors to do a lot without reserving the energy for the most important thing. This is a good trade-off because once you tell them how, they respect you and they use that knowledge to other similar things to make their lives easier while you move on to other things then you repeat the cycle.
Speaking of cycles, "breaking the cycle" is Ni. As in the bad cycle. Like I said sensors accept what's in front of them and sometimes they get to defeatist attitude that there is no more there but there is, which Ni leads can see. Sometimes sensors just accept that terrible things are just a part of life when it shouldn't be. But it's not their role to break it, it's Ni leads who have the natural inclination to figure things out like that. It's kinda tricky though so I should explain it more - Ni leads realizes the cycle BUT it's not necessary that they actually break the cycle because they have low skill for execution so sometimes they just make life pass them by without changing things. Sensors have difficulty realizing the pattern in the first place BUT they have the ability to make the change and sustain it. But since they don't even know that it's a fixable problem in the first place, their lives stagnate similar to Ni leads.
Artistry I would agree as something that is typically attributed to intuitives because it's their realm by default due to stereotypes. Art should be groundbreaking or whatever. You need to have the vision, provoke change, make people see things differently. This is high Ni. I believe that sensors would not be inclined to pursue further because they might think it's not their world.
Though in my opinion, there are also sensor artists but you'll see the difference in how they are as an artist. Sensor artists are more master crafters. If on the art abstraction and new insight are pronounced - not a fucking sensor. If the art is high quality, well-crafted, consistent, focus on raw and physical artistry - might actually be a sensor. If the artist gives an explanation of why they put this and that on the art and this thing means this one - not a sensor. A sensor artist would make the art speak for itself. But I really think some sensors might feel bad about themselves pursuing art because they might feel that they need to be highly original or meaningful. Making an artist explain their art is discriminatory for sensors. A SEI I know stopped drawing because she feels it's not practical plus she prefers drawing portraits and thinks she's not that good enough.
When you look at amateur art, it's so common to see intuitives have that mistake of not perfecting the figures or the physicality of it and they just think that it's the concept/vision that counts. This is not true. Objectively, it's ugly. Sensors however have better skill of making it look really good, but it may lack originality or higher meaning and purpose. Though majority of typical artists I believe are intuitives, and they are also blind, so they don't even see that what they do is ugly and unpolished. So they can just thrive normally like that. If they have good skills in marketing or talking about themselves, then they can skate by easily. Unfortunately that's how it goes, this is why if you really just see some art, they're really objectively ugly. And this is why many sensors think they are ridiculous and don't pay attention to them.
I'm not a sensor, but I've been trying hard recently to do some typical sensor stuff and sometimes I get glimpse of sensor views at random times (Note: Everyone can experience this. By default I live in my imagination and can't shut it down and I only use like 10% of my focus on actual thing around me. If you're like me, try really, really staring at things) and I'll be like oh my god yup that really doesn't look good. If you're an intuitive, you can try it even as normal as makeup. I would sometimes put lipstick and think ok that looks good but once I really look at it without imagining stuff, I realized oh it's ACTUALLY kinda uneven. The lines on my eyes are ACTUALLY not that defined. Etc etc. It's humbling.
Last edited by two; 09-27-2022 at 09:09 AM.
This leads to my point that it's highly important for people work on their role function. First, to be more socially accepted and appreciated and second, for you to achieve mastery in whatever your lead function is up to. I've been repeating "midpoint" among other things like I'm really increasing the word count of that on this forum for some culty reason but no! I believe in this and yes, I also believe it's one of the best methods to go past it. If you're an N lead, your role is S and if you're S lead your role is N. Personally it's revealing and I'm a pea compared to these big boy/big girl sensors!
It's like experiencing things for the first time tbh which is very big for a person like me. Segue - this is also the reason why sensors don't seem to get patterns, they're actually living things like it's the first time (in my pov, idk if it's clear, I understand "living things like it's the first time seems unfitting for sensors" but I can't explain it in defined terms yet)
I know an IEI who just rants nonstop about his third eye, "breeders" and "demonic gay/trans people" on instagram so not all intuitives are super bright. Sometimes they're just airheads (Ne-egos) or average people who speak in vague platitudes or make assumptions about you that resonate sometimes (Ni-ego)
Last edited by Averroes; 09-27-2022 at 11:56 AM.
Being a boomer...
If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.
That's actually Ne, not Ni.
Extroverted intuition is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Ne, I, intuition of possibilities, or black intuition.
Ne is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.
Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to introverted intuition (Ni) types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option. They enjoy discussing unusual insights into the nature of the world and crazy out-there ideas, like space elevators. Typical Ne quadra humor juxtaposes seemingly unrelated phenomena.
Ni is
Introverted intuition is an introverted, irrational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Ni, T, temporal intuition, or white intuition. Ni is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects. Types that value Ni always like to have in mind a specific plan for how their life will develop in the future. Thus they have little time for the concept of "living for the moment" or "making the best of the present". They generally engage in pure leisure activities only for short periods of time, and even then their leisure activities generally involve a psychologically demanding or competitive aspect.
The blood that runs within my veins
Keeps me from ever ending up the same
The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong
Love me or hate me
I walk alone
Been called a monster, called a demon, called a fake
I'm not an idol, not an angel, not a saint
I walk alone, I always have, I'm not ashamed
A living nightmare from the cradle to the grave
So signs of low Ni = living in the moment, not thinking ahead, improvising instead, not foreseeing things coming, etc.
Story of my life and why my efforts don't always work out when it relates to Te also. Can't do that shit even when I try.
The blood that runs within my veins
Keeps me from ever ending up the same
The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong
Love me or hate me
I walk alone
Been called a monster, called a demon, called a fake
I'm not an idol, not an angel, not a saint
I walk alone, I always have, I'm not ashamed
A living nightmare from the cradle to the grave
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