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Thread: What it means to "value" a IE

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    Default What it means to "value" a IE

    What does it mean to value a IE and how does it affect your personality?

    Valued functions are essentially what make up the foundation of our socionic type (Ego functions 1 and 2), and the processes that complement that foundation (Super-id functions 5 and 6). Every person actively seeks to process information based on these functions, and warmly create a sense of connection to others who value similar functions. The more valued functions in common means the closer the general compatibility between two types. These functions are what make up the quadra values of the types.

    Subdued functions are the remaining four functions that oppose our preferences; as a result we try to limit the use of these functions. The mental-subdued (weak) functions are found in the Super-ego block (functions 3 and 4), and the vital-subdued (strong) functions are in the Id block (functions 7 and 8). Since these functions are what we suppress as much as we can, in situations where we must use them they tend to produce dissatisfaction and distress in ourselves. Subdued functions are sometimes called non-valued although some socionists prefer not to use this name.
    A possible explanation for quadra values is that the valued elements are either in the ego functions, which are conscious and strong, or the Super-Id functions, which are unconscious and weak. Because one naturally likes to have conscious control in the area of their strengths, the ego functions are valued. Similarly, because conscious engagement of one's weaknesses is painful, the conscious Super-Ego functions are subdued, and the unconscious super-id functions valued. This is directly related to the idea of complementarity, which implies that duals allow the best possible environment for each other to develop their strengths, and at the same time, support their weaknesses in a healthy way.


    Quadra values are best understood in terms of preference, and are unrelated to strength. For instance, a type with Se in their Ego will necessarily have Si in their Id and therefore be quite confident in both, but when there is a choice in priority, that type will tend to prefer to focus on Se over Si . A type of the same quadra, but without either function in the Ego, will likewise prefer Se over Si but not be particularly confident in either, so welcoming help from others on Se issues far more than over Si issues. Therefore both types have Se as quadra value.
    So, how do you "prefer" your valued function? Not asking for a theoretical explanation I can easily find that, personal reasons and explanations are what I'm asking about.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Hm, I guess preference is the right word. And response, I definitely respond more to information that appeals to my valued IEs, or situations that support my valued IEs, or interactions that engage them.

    If you want personal reason I guess I can just do that then.

    Like for Fi, personal reasons I value it, I might not be able to explain this in a logical manner lol which I guess is the nature of the IE, but I just like and pay attention to a more quiet deeper sense of emotion, how do I even explain that lol? It might be more expressed in words and the way someone looks at you and certain things someone does rather than how someones face looks and what emotion is physically on their face. I also pay more attention to people's personal likes and dislikes more than I pay attention to what the general public likes and dislikes, though I am well aware of those things, so when in conversation it feels more satisfying to hear someone talk about what they personally like and dislike vs. them just talking about pop culture or what is considered cool, but they never mention anything they personally enjoy. And it feels like a bridge between me and the person when our personal likes match.

    Ne, this is alot easier for me to see why I love this IE so much. I much rather prefer to come up with many different ways something could be done, expressed, seen, interacted with, this to me feels "cool" and fun to do. The opposite largely feels like someone is killing my buzz, popping my bubble, or being boring, like if I come up with so many "cool" ideas and someone just comes along and says "All of that is just basically X" or none of that works Y is the best way, joy effectively killed lol. I get joy out of Ne, and Ni just gets rid of that and trap my imagination sometimes.

    Si, I appreciate more subtle things, don't like over blown loud statement making colors, love textures and things moving slowly, love comfort, not big on crazy adrenaline thrills all the time and I do like new experiences but I love familiar and nostalgic things also. And I prefer to be not so impulsive, sometimes being too impulsive seems reckless to me. I don't like being pushed, I know sometimes I need it but I def don't like it, I don't like being pressed by people either, I like calm> chaos.

    Te, I like information that you can use over info that's just good to know.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 04-18-2022 at 11:44 PM.

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    "Valuing" IEs is hogwash.

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    I had an answer but it was basically me rehashing points already made by the theory. I deleted it and I still don't know how I should feel about the valuing idea.

    So Ne for me is sort of a joke, all the associations and connections seem so scattered and unorganized. I don't find conversations with a high amount of this IE present (like a high Alpha NT atmosphere) to be particularly stimulating or interesting. It seems like mental masturbation. Of course, I'm not going to spoil the mood in these situations, I can participate. But these sorts of conversations or too vapid and "zany" for me.

    Fi is something I don't have a problem with, but I will discuss privately and I don't necessarily "wield" as a Fi ego would. If I'm in a "Fi" charged environment I can navigate it fine. This is probably one of the IEs I don't really not value. I see it as important, but I don't express Fi verbally with anyone.

    Se is an obvious one for me, I value action and understanding how to navigate the outside world in a concrete and effective way. People who are powerful and impulsive shake me up and get me to act. I say to myself "this person just acts and look! They did something! Why can't you?"

    Si is something I developed later in life, learning about my internal biorhythms, how to relax, how to make myself comfortable, and how to make a room or outfit look harmonious. These all are things I had to learn from others.

    Fe is picky for me, I don't like garish, crude, or obnoxious people. So what people think is Fe can be usually pretty disgusting to me. Fe, in theory, is defined by Fe seeking types usually who tend to have a poor understanding of ethics and think Fe is being a goofy wacky clown. Another problem is the gendered nature of the IE. Fe =/= traditional feminine behavior. Well, this is a strong and conscious function so I have a lot of opinions about it.

    Ni I see as a deep dark ocean with lots of primordial creatures living beneath its deceptively calm surface. I don't necessarily discuss it much with others, it's more of a personal thing for me.

    Ti is something I try to use. I think I notice it more when I interact with others. People who provide a careful analysis of their thoughts and justify why they think these things are preferable to a person who simply states their opinion and expects that to be sufficient.

    Te for me is pretty weak, I don't want to deal with these things. If I am in an unfamiliar situation I prefer someone to tell me exactly what I need to do to solve the problem so I can get it fixed and not have to think about it.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    "Valuing" IEs is hogwash.
    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    What does it mean to value a IE and how does it affect your personality?





    So, how do you "prefer" your valued function? Not asking for a theoretical explanation I can easily find that, personal reasons and explanations are what I'm asking about.
    Value is relief from stress. Unvalued would cause more stress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Value is relief from stress. Unvalued would cause more stress.

    How have you experienced this in your real life?
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    How have you experienced this in your real life?
    I can use Te very well, especially for the benefit of others. However, once I do, I avoid Te even in my private time because of the psychological stress it induces

    With valued elements, their use brings joy. If they are super ID, it is helpful and/or soothing when others can use them even in my private time. Although I cannot use Fe a bunch, it's cheerfulness is soothing even when people use it in a YouTube video or a phone text

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    There's something about "valued" or "preferred" IEs that just feels natural. Even though my Ti is stronger than my Te, I'd much rather use Te to solve the same problem because I prefer it over Ti.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    So, how do you "prefer" your valued function? Not asking for a theoretical explanation I can easily find that, personal reasons and explanations are what I'm asking about.

    Ti over Te: I prefer a rational than empirical approach, if you come up to me and say: "this is like this because some authority said so and they are very smart" or generelized incomplete information like: "I did this, I got this result I was looking for, therefore this proves I'm right", I'm not gonna take you very seriously, so I value interactions with people who think on their own no matter how retarded and farfetched their thinking is, as long as there is some logical structure to it.

    Se over Si: not very aware or caring about subjectivity of sensing, I don't know. I only realize I'm sick when it's almost too late, I generally choose food by how it tastes, almost never by how healthy it is or not, sometimes I eat until I'm passed full. I imagine a Si valuing type would never do that, they are way more careful about maintaining some inner balance.

    Ni over Ne: I like to accumulate key knowledge about stuff and them predict the most likely outcome. I think Ne is the opposite, they imagine many outcomes and play them off to infinity without picking one, that pissed me off to no end. Like, what's the point of thinking so much if you're just gonna get lost in your "brainstorm" there my dude?

    Fe over Fi: I probably said that before in some other post: I don't care about little kids in Africa, I don't care that you got offended when I used "fag", or "cuck" because by the book that wouldn't be politically correct. I don't think people should be guilty about having a lot of money just because others don't have. And this all comes to my understanding that Fi is relational ethics, they are always comparing and monitoring behaviors, Fe is emotional ethics. I feel more empathy about someone crying, being genuinely expressive with their emotions after having shot someone in a whim of anger or whatever than I feel for someone trying to enforce some rule to benefit some minority who lives in the peak of a mountain.


    Now, have I swaped some of these elements by mistake? Maybe. But that's my understanding as of now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I can use Te very well, especially for the benefit of others. However, once I do, I avoid Te even in my private time because of the psychological stress it induces

    With valued elements, their use brings joy. If they are super ID, it is helpful and/or soothing when others can use them even in my private time. Although I cannot use Fe a bunch, it's cheerfulness is soothing even when people use it in a YouTube video or a phone text
    According to Model G, your social mission involves Te, so it's not surprising that you find yourself in this position of stress. It's to offset what would otherwise be a selfish use of your base function.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I can use Te very well, especially for the benefit of others. However, once I do, I avoid Te even in my private time because of the psychological stress it induces

    With valued elements, their use brings joy. If they are super ID, it is helpful and/or soothing when others can use them even in my private time. Although I cannot use Fe a bunch, it's cheerfulness is soothing even when people use it in a YouTube video or a phone text
    So what's an example of Te in this case? What about it causes you psychological stress and makes you avoid it in your private time? Are only Fe valuers cheerful, because using demo function would be stressful? IEEs and SEEs aren't cheerful?

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    Personally, I've never been a fan of using the terms "valued" and "unvalued" to describe IEs. I think it leads to a lot of confusion because people end up thinking of it in terms of their philosophical values. Like, I value empiricism as a tool that we use in the modern world to improve things. I think most people probably do at least on some level. I think it can be very easy to mistake someone who talks about the value of something like empiricism for someone who values Te, when really they might actually be Te-PoLR. Basically, your philosophical values do not directly correlate with your "valued" IEs, and I think we should be careful not to confuse the two. Someone simply supporting their arguments with facts might be nothing more than evidence that they're somewhat educated.

    I think it may be more enlightening to think of valued/unvalued IEs in terms of your preferred job in some kind of group setting. Let's say we're all taking a lovely little trip to outer space in our quaint little raypunk rocketship. Given binary choices where you MUST pick one, which jobs sound more appealing to you?

    Se or Si - would you rather be in charge of navigating through the asteroid belt, or maintaining the life support systems?
    Ne or Ni - would you rather plan for all the contingencies, or decide which planets we'll visit?
    Te or Ti - would you rather direct the ship's construction, or program the computers
    Fe or Fi - would you rather make sure everyone on board is having a good time, or ensure that first contact with the ****** is made ethically? Huh... guess you can't say ****** anymore. Extraterrestrials

    Obviously this is a terrible analogy because, for example, a Ti-ego might be deeply uncomfortable with programming computers simply due to a lack of experience, or an Se-ego might prefer maintaining life support just so they don't murder the infuriating Ne-lead that hangs out in the cockpit, or whatever else, so don't take this too literally. The example is just a stand-in for how I think of valued/unvalued IEs

    I made this post kinda long to really just end up saying that it's more about where your comfort zone is. Hopefully it was interesting in any case
    “Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
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    I think it means if an IE is valued, then you are simply receptive to that type of information without having to make a conscious effort.
    Like tonight, my coworkers and I were discussing students who are problematic or else very needy. The Gamma NTs made a point that by being too helpful to certain students will make them keep coming back expecting that level of help, causing issues for other tutors in the long run.
    Well, I conceded that they had a point. After all, these tutors are more experienced and have Ni in their ego block unlike myself. So while it's innate that I naturally try to provide high quality and specific assistance which has resulted in many students wanting to know my schedule because of the quality of tutoring I provide and because I make great effort in my work. But some students do get spoiled and take it for granted and ask for assistance which goes beyond tuition.
    I mean, I could definitely feel some cognitive discomfort because I don't care for long range thinking and like to take each day as it comes, but because Te was present, I made an effort to be more receptive of that sort of feedback and try to implement it more in my own tuition practices. I have to remember that just because I am very knowledgeable, resourceful, and skillful, it doesn't mean I need to be generous with utilizing my skills where it is not appropriate.

    I mean, it can be hard, but in any industry, types across the socion will be present with their own perspectives based on their ego block and it's worth taking those different points, even if unvalued, into careful consideration if one cares about reality.
    So it's easier to just focus on information pertaining to valued IEs, but this often results in error and delusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    So what's an example of Te in this case? What about it causes you psychological stress and makes you avoid it in your private time? Are only Fe valuers cheerful, because using demo function would be stressful? IEEs and SEEs aren't cheerful?
    I use Te at work, particularly for strong Fi users who request it. Te is very useful in business or pragmatic matters. That's cool for my pocketbook but not for my psych.

    Ti operates more on nuance whereas Te tends to be more black & white. Te ain't my preference

    The emotional thermometer of Fe is greater than Fi while simultaneously being more "shallow" than Fi.

    It is up to you to accurately determine what causes you stress

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I use Te at work, particularly for strong Fi users who request it. Te is very useful in business or pragmatic matters. That's cool for my pocketbook but not for my psych.

    Ti operates more on nuance whereas Te tends to be more black & white. Te ain't my preference

    The emotional thermometer of Fe is greater than Fi while simultaneously being more "shallow" than Fi.

    It is up to you to accurately determine what causes you stress
    Oh yes, Te = business. But what does that mean actually? Excel workbooks? Powerpoint presentations? What exactly does it mean to "do the Te" for others but feel stress for doing for yourself?
    I don't see any reason why either Te or Ti would feel stressful at all. Especially for an irrational logical type that is strong in both IEs, neither of them being ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Oh yes, Te = business. But what does that mean actually? Excel workbooks? Powerpoint presentations? What exactly does it mean to "do the Te" for others but feel stress for doing for yourself?
    I don't see any reason why either Te or Ti would feel stressful at all. Especially for an irrational logical type that is strong in both IEs, neither of them being ignored.
    I know you didn't ask me but I want to take a stab at it if I may. Not all matters of Te generate the same feelings in me. I think what I struggle with most is being selfish and acting in self interest. Efficiency is just doing what is needed to a achieve a desired result. Arguably with with minimal resources/time spent. I'm strangely capable of it to a high degree but still have a high aversion to base my decisions on anything but.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    I know you didn't ask me but I want to take a stab at it if I may. Not all matters of Te generate the same feelings in me. I think what I struggle with most is being selfish and acting in self interest. Efficiency is just doing what is needed to a achieve a desired result. Arguably with with minimal resources/time spent. I'm strangely capable of it to a high degree but still have a high aversion to base my decisions on anything but.
    Yes, you're Te ignoring LII, right? I have seen the problem of acting in self-interest for LIIs, and can see the argument that it stems from Se polr and Te ignoring. The problem is less prominent in SEI who have Te polr and Se ignoring, so it seems to me that it's more related to Se polr (SEI can be very eager to please and compromise, but when it comes to their own or their family's well-being, they aren't going to be easily trampled on).

    The only "thinking" thing that I have issues with is deeply concentrating on complex abstract problems, I could do it very well if I really had to, but I have a huge aversion to doing it. Quick and dirty solutions and immediate action is always better if it's at all possible to solve the problem that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Yes, you're Te ignoring LII, right? I have seen the problem of acting in self-interest for LIIs, and can see the argument that it stems from Se polr and Te ignoring. The problem is less prominent in SEI who have Te polr and Se ignoring, so it seems to me that it's more related to Se polr (SEI can be very eager to please and compromise, but when it comes to their own or their family's well-being, they aren't going to be easily trampled on).

    The only "thinking" thing that I have issues with is deeply concentrating on complex abstract problems, I could do it very well if I really had to, but I have a huge aversion to doing it. Quick and dirty solutions and immediate action is always better if it's at all possible to solve the problem that way.
    Yes. Fair point.

    I do think xLE may have an easier time with Te since it's 4D.

    By the way I don't mean to sound like I don't act in self interest, just that it's not something I willingly engage in or take lightly, especially at the expense of others. I enjoy making money and I don't feel guilty for having it. Anti capitalist mentality confuse me sometime. But I can see why people dislike capitalism as well since it encourages what I consider deplorable self interested behavior.

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    I'd rather say it's the matter of preference that stems upon the act of valuation utmost. But to explain preference, that is valuation on itself, it could be implied as the informational process that is prioritized above the other, which seemed to be a sort of layered "filters" that captures metabolism process by its merits. For instance, ILIs tend to dismiss or ignore the structural laws of white logic since it's the secondary over their main preference to validate the accuracy white logic using their counterpart black logic. And inherently, since their black logic is "valued", consciously, it'd process Ti, too, despite it's unvalued and it's also the matter whether Te prefers to filter its data or not.
    Arthur Schopenhauer (ILI-Ni):

    • “A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.”


    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (ILI-Te):


    • "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    So, how do you "prefer" your valued function? Not asking for a theoretical explanation I can easily find that, personal reasons and explanations are what I'm asking about.
    Sorry, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but did you mean what are some attitudes and preferences you hold due to valuing the IE? I don't think a personal justification for valuing an IE is valid if one is already biased towards the IE to begin with, right?
    e.g. like asking a straight person why they prefer the opposite sex and a gay person why the same sex

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    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    Sorry, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but did you mean what are some attitudes and preferences you hold due to valuing the IE? I don't think a personal justification for valuing an IE is valid if one is already biased towards the IE to begin with, right?
    e.g. like asking a straight person why they prefer the opposite sex and a gay person why the same sex

    Essentially I am questioning the very idea of the preferences themselves. So it would be correct in thinking that it would be redundant to ask why someone prefers their preferred functions.

    But I am pointing to the fact that the preferences of valued IMs are of minor importance from what I have observed in real life, that is why I am asking others to step away from their own type for a second and give reasons behind these preferences beyond "because I am this type."
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Oh yes, Te = business. But what does that mean actually? Excel workbooks? Powerpoint presentations? What exactly does it mean to "do the Te" for others but feel stress for doing for yourself?
    I don't see any reason why either Te or Ti would feel stressful at all. Especially for an irrational logical type that is strong in both IEs, neither of them being ignored.
    If you don't understand which psychological elements stress your psych then your level of self awareness is low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    Essentially I am questioning the very idea of the preferences themselves. So it would be correct in thinking that it would be redundant to ask why someone prefers their preferred functions.

    But I am pointing to the fact that the preferences of valued IMs are of minor importance from what I have observed in real life, that is why I am asking others to step away from their own type for a second and give reasons behind these preferences beyond "because I am this type."
    I don't believe a person's solipsism is gonna help you much.

    In my opinion, you're overthinking the topic. There's a real easy way to determine type, preferences and with 100% accuracy. I'd write it but most here would call it bullshit due to their fuckin' ego dramas

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    Se or Si - would you rather be in charge of navigating through the asteroid belt, or maintaining the life support systems?
    Neither if I can help it, but I'd get us killed if I had to the the first option.

    Ne or Ni - would you rather plan for all the contingencies, or decide which planets we'll visit?
    Both, but I have to do the first option or I will be paranoid the whole trip.

    Te or Ti - would you rather direct the ship's construction, or program the computers
    Definitely not the second option, hell no. I like the idea of the first option but doesn't seem realistic for me.

    Fe or Fi - would you rather make sure everyone on board is having a good time, or ensure that first contact with the ****** is made ethically? Huh... guess you can't say ****** anymore. Extraterrestrials
    The first option doesn't seem important to me, while the second option does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    Essentially I am questioning the very idea of the preferences themselves. So it would be correct in thinking that it would be redundant to ask why someone prefers their preferred functions.

    But I am pointing to the fact that the preferences of valued IMs are of minor importance from what I have observed in real life, that is why I am asking others to step away from their own type for a second and give reasons behind these preferences beyond "because I am this type."

    The bolded is opposite to my personal experience. Would you mind elaborating?
    Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "the preferences of valued IMs".

    ~~~

    Objectively, I think gamma values make the most sense to value. But fuck I love Fe/Ti and I'd choose it over Fi/Te any day, and for no good real reason. It's just the way I am.. that we are.. how are we supposed to justify the literal fabric of who we are?

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    @Stray Cat
    Hmm we have dissimilar experiences. Fi usage doesn't stress me-- it's more of an annoyance.
    So i'm looking up the definition of stress:
    a state of mental or emotional strain or tension resulting from adverse or very demanding circumstances.
    and it doesn't make much sense (to me) why a 4D function, literally what we're most fluent at regardless of valuation/devaluation, would cause particular mental strain? what do you mean by "stress"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    Essentially I am questioning the very idea of the preferences themselves. So it would be correct in thinking that it would be redundant to ask why someone prefers their preferred functions.

    But I am pointing to the fact that the preferences of valued IMs are of minor importance from what I have observed in real life, that is why I am asking others to step away from their own type for a second and give reasons behind these preferences beyond "because I am this type."
    To me, type isn't a mask or anything removable from who I am as a person. It's not an abstract concept, either. It's just the reality of the situation, so I don't have to step away from it to say that I prefer efficiency and "business logic" over theoretical principles, etc.
    Last edited by Rune; 04-19-2022 at 05:19 AM.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    If you don't understand which psychological elements stress your psych then your level of self awareness is low.
    Oh yeah, both F functions and N functions I can experience as stressful, but neither S or T are. The strong functions aren't stressful to use for me, weak ones are. You didn't specify what exactly you refer to as Te and why it would be stressful when it's supposed to be your strongest 4D "social mission" function

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    I use Ti even more than I use Te, simply because it's stronger. Very easy to use, no stress at all.

    But if it ever come to a decision I must choose between either Ti and Fi, there's a high change that I gonna choose Fi, with Te along to cover it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I don't believe a person's solipsism is gonna help you much.

    In my opinion, you're overthinking the topic. There's a real easy way to determine type, preferences and with 100% accuracy. I'd write it but most here would call it bullshit due to their fuckin' ego dramas
    I could not think about it and just accept it, but since this is a place where we discuss socionics so I think that would make things pretty boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    The bolded is opposite to my personal experience. Would you mind elaborating?
    Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "the preferences of valued IMs".

    ~~~

    Objectively, I think gamma values make the most sense to value. But fuck I love Fe/Ti and I'd choose it over Fi/Te any day, and for no good real reason. It's just the way I am.. that we are.. how are we supposed to justify the literal fabric of who we are?
    I'm not really going to summarize all the times that two people with bad ITR got along great. Socionics is a theory to understand how others metabolize information, it never claimed to define a persons entire fabric of their being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    To me, type isn't a mask or anything removable from who I am as a person. It's not an abstract concept, either. It's just the reality of the situation, so I don't have to step away from it to say that I prefer efficiency and "business logic" over theoretical principles, etc.
    A personality is an abstraction, you can't really get around it. Business logic is also an abstraction. Claiming these things aren't "abstract" and are "the reality of the situation" is not convincing.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    @Stray Cat
    Hmm we have dissimilar experiences. Fi usage doesn't stress me-- it's more of an annoyance.
    So i'm looking up the definition of stress:
    a state of mental or emotional strain or tension resulting from adverse or very demanding circumstances.
    and it doesn't make much sense (to me) why a 4D function, literally what we're most fluent at regardless of valuation/devaluation, would cause particular mental strain? what do you mean by "stress"?
    I say stress and you go to a dictionary in an effort to hyperanalyze something to support a psychological argument you do not want to waver on.

    To suggest that stress and annoyance are not on the sane spectrum is silly. Person #1 is stressed, person #2 is annoyed and you're suggesting that the mind sees a difference between the two. Whether it is experiencing "stress" or "annoyance" the mind is in need of relief.

    The mind, a biological organism, does not care a great deal
    about the semantic definitions the social sciences like to support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Oh yeah, both F functions and N functions I can experience as stressful, but neither S or T are. The strong functions aren't stressful to use for me, weak ones are. You didn't specify what exactly you refer to as Te and why it would be stressful when it's supposed to be your strongest 4D "social mission" function

    It sounds to me like you do not really understand the pragmatic application of Te in society. If you're continually asking me what I refer to as Te, than how do YOU conceptually understand that you experience no stress while using it

    I'm not convinced you understand the functions given how robotically you define them and in an effort TO understand them, you're asking me

    If what you're trying to be is dogmatic then just write a book and completely ignore the experiences you've been, literally, asking for.

    If I give you an actual personal experience, you will have the opportunity and will probably use it, to disregard it in favor of what you already want to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    I could not think about it and just accept it, but since this is a place where we discuss socionics so I think that would make things pretty boring.



    I'm not really going to summarize all the times that two people with bad ITR got along great. Socionics is a theory to understand how others metabolize information, it never claimed to define a persons entire fabric of their being.



    A personality is an abstraction, you can't really get around it. Business logic is also an abstraction. Claiming these things aren't "abstract" and are "the reality of the situation" is not convincing.
    You can do what you choose. If you believe psychologically overthinking this topic is a great use of you time then that is your right. IMO, you might be chasing your own tail on this one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    I'm not really going to summarize all the times that two people with bad ITR got along great. Socionics is a theory to understand how others metabolize information, it never claimed to define a persons entire fabric of their being.
    But 2 people getting along doesn't imply there aren't still subtle moments where discrepancies in valuations are exposed to the trained eye.
    As for the second part, I suppose we just view Socionics differently =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I say stress and you go to a dictionary in an effort to hyperanalyze something to support a psychological argument you do not want to waver on.
    To suggest that stress and annoyance are not on the same spectrum is silly. Person #1 is stressed, person #2 is annoyed and you're suggesting that the mind sees a difference between the two. Whether it is experiencing "stress" or "annoyance" the mind is in need of relief.

    The mind, a biological organism, does not care a great deal about the semantic definitions the social sciences like to support.
    You misunderstand if you think my reply was an overanalyzation or an attack. We clash too much for my liking, so I'll refrain from engaging with you from now on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    But 2 people getting along doesn't imply there aren't still subtle moments where discrepancies in valuations are exposed to the trained eye.
    As for the second part, I suppose we just view Socionics differently =)

    These subtle differences are just an inevitable effect of two people with different perspectives and backgrounds interacting. As for our differences in opinion on what socionics is, it is a theory based off of Kempinski theory of information metabolism. The reason I bring it up is that the issue I have with IE "values" is intertwined with this problem of perceiving socionics to be capable of explaining more than it was designed to do.

    There are people online who use sloppy generalizations about types and come to pretty absurd conclusions. Like "X type is the best at math" or "X types are the most creative". The origin of this problem I believe, is that people try to use socionics to explain way too much and it is a trend in western socionics that I jokingly call MBTI-ification. Where the system begins to lack rigor and the limits of its conclusions are poorly defined.

    How does this pertain to valuing a IE? Quadra "values" has become a way of classifying an ideology of each quadra. For example, "all betas are this way" "all gammas do this" "deltas always do this!" "I am alpha and we just think this way". We all do this in some form or another, usually in a humorous way, but we shouldn't really make any conclusions based off of it.

    Similarly I see a split where Te/Fi types are empiricists while Ti/Fe types are rationalists.

    An individual can make so many conclusions with crappy ad hoc logic and such arguments pollute the collective understanding of the system.

    Instead it's cleaner and simpler to say Socionics is a theory of information metabolism instead of claiming it has some special insight into every single person. Because it doesn't. Everyone is different. Even in DarkAngelFireWolf69s DCNH system that creates 64 available subtypes out of 16 types creates a reductionist view of the human experience if we are to expect socionics to explain such things.


    Well those are my thoughts on it, you don't have to respond. I was just using your post to springboard my thoughts.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    It sounds to me like you do not really understand the pragmatic application of Te in society. If you're continually asking me what I refer to as Te, than how do YOU conceptually understand that you experience no stress while using it

    I'm not convinced you understand the functions given how robotically you define them and in an effort TO understand them, you're asking me

    If what you're trying to be is dogmatic then just write a book and completely ignore the experiences you've been, literally, asking for.

    If I give you an actual personal experience, you will have the opportunity and will probably use it, to disregard it in favor of what you already want to believe.
    Humor me, and explain the pragmatic application of Te in society, that stresses you? I'm too lazy to link it here but I recently posted about Te being the logic of actions, thus of repurposing items, renaming them, aka. creative tool-use and tool creation.

    Sounds to me that you're straw manning me in a weird defensive way, what's robotic about my definitions, where? Calling me dogmatic and ignoring experience sounds like projection. And presupposing that I'm going to disregard what you say in favor of what I already want to believe just kinda sounds like a big excuse, what are you afraid of?

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    I’m not a fan of the “valued”/“unvalued” terminology because my values have evolved over time with age and experience. What I valued as a teenager is not what I value today. I can change my values—but I can’t change my type. Setting that aside…

    IRL I feel like Fe conveys and understands emotional information, and in way, is more advantageous for communication than Fi. A person’s external emotional state can signify their inner emotional state. It adds context to communication.

    When Fi types are more subdued in their communication, I have to rely on their word and take what they’re saying at face value—even if what they’re saying doesn’t seem consistent with how they’re acting. This works when both parties trust each other. Fi types are honest and act with integrity ime, and that helps me have more confidence in what they’re saying.
    Last edited by Poptart; 04-19-2022 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaemonia View Post
    that is why I am asking others to step away from their own type for a second and give reasons behind these preferences beyond "because I am this type."
    The easiest ones to talk about in this sense are my PoLR and Role, so that's all I'll go into here for now, but that's not because I don't have reasons for the others. I just have class in a few minutes and don't have time to write about things that take more thought.

    My reasons for feeling I'm Te PoLR: Important phone calls, applying for things, going to the bank/post office/dentist/hospital, making reports (especially if I have to keep track of what I did hour-by-hour), scheduling anything, directing people, or even just glancing at Excel out of the corner of my eye regularly made me cry as a child and makes me want to self harm as an adult. If even the smallest setback occurs in dealing with these things I start feeling like all is lost and it's not worth it. TurboTax won't let me file online and tells me I have to print and mail my tax stuff? I start weighing the pros and cons of just not filing instead. I hate hate HATE dealing with this kind of stuff and it makes me so frustrated and stressed out when anything goes wrong in dealing with them

    My reasons for feeling I'm Si Role: I forget to eat, I'm terribly inconsistent about maintaining my health and the cleanliness of my house. I will go several weeks without vacuuming, then one day, randomly, probably at 2am I'll decide I'm a horrible person for not keeping up with these things and I'll do a deep clean that lasts all night. If someone is coming to visit my house however, I'll clean everything so aggressively that it gives the impression that I'm the cleanest, most organized person in the world. People always comment on how clean and how nice my house smells when they come over. I even open all the windows and set up fans to circulate the air while burning a copious amount of incense, even if the house smells totally fine to me. I also groom myself pretty aggressively if I'm out there seeing people, but not really at all if I'm at home all day every day. My Si is very much in response to me feeling that other people will judge me for it if everything isn't immaculate. Both my parents are Si-egos and my dad is very detail-oriented, so I think growing up I may have gotten used to being judged for it somewhat harshly and developed quite the internal voice that tells me when I'm not dealing with the Si things in my life as I should be. I also just feel very disconnected from my surroundings, and even more disconnected from my body. It's never really felt like mine, and I actually went to therapy for a year due to my chronic sense of detachment from things. Didn't really help me feel less detached, but I felt less depressed about it anyways

    But yeah, for me my Role and PoLR in particular feel very obvious. I don't know how they could be anything else really, so I am as sure as I can be that I'm a Beta NF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat;[URL="tel:1511381"
    1511381[/URL]]In my opinion, you're overthinking the topic. There's a real easy way to determine type, preferences and with 100% accuracy. I'd write it but most here would call it bullshit due to their fuckin' ego dramas
    Obviously I have no idea how accurate that would be, myself, but I wouldn’t mind hearing about it all the same.


    In response to the thread at hand: I always thought ‘valued’ just meant which IEs ‘appeal’ to you and which ones don’t. ‘Preferred’ is another term that’s helpful.
    Obviously we as individuals tend to use each IE in some capacity throughout our lives, but we are built to utilise or engage with them in specific ways. ‘Valued’ doesn’t mean “I find this useful because I can do such-and-such with it in society”, because in Socionics ‘valued’ is instead its own term in Socionics that isn’t meant to overlap with “what we do in society.”

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    What I saw in life is that Fe is valuable, Te is not. Even tho I naturaly go towards Te and Fi, I also tend to reject them because I came to believe they are unvaluable.

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