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Thread: Demo & HA interaction

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    Default Demo & HA interaction

    Have you guys noticed that when someone has your Demo as their HA, it's far more irritating than someone else having it in their ego block? It makes sense because not only do you want to condemn them for valuing your Demo, but you also can condemn them for sucking at it as well as sucking at it but thinking they're good at it.

    My IEE roommate gets on my ILE boyfriend's nerves a lot, and the pure personality of someone (VS something they did that affected you) doesn't tend to catch the notice of and annoy Fi PoLRs much. In his wording, she always talks about things as if she knows what she's talking about. By things, he means bureaucracy and paperwork type of things. It's a mix of genuine confusion and irritation.

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    Yeah. IEIs frustrate me in a few ways with their HA. They typically struggle to enunciate exactly how they reach conclusions. Ie. The logical process they seem to have seems to come out of nowhere. Furthermore, they tend to contradict themselves a lot over a span of time, leading me to disbelieve in the system they have. When they have a question about something they're trying to understand, it typically creates a feedback loop of overanalysis. Finally, they tend to state their conclusions with such certitude that it becomes really irritating when they have nothing to back it up. A good example was in the Putin thread when two IEIs typed Putin ILI based on nothing more than their gut feelings.

    I don't have was much experience with SEIs, but I had one SEI manager who thought he understood me based on one snapshot of my performance. I switched teams.
    Last edited by Rune; 03-22-2022 at 03:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Yeah. IEIs frustrate me in a few ways with their HA. They typically struggle to enunciate exactly how they reach conclusions. Ie. The logical process they seem to have seems to come out of nowhere. Furthermore, they tend to contradict themselves a lot over a span of time, leading me to disbelieve in the system they have. When they have a question about something they're trying to understand, it typically creates a feedback loop of overanalysis. Finally, they tend to state their conclusions with such certitude that it becomes really irritating when they have nothing to back it up. A good example was in the Putin thread when two IEIs typed Putin ILI based on nothing more than their gut feelings.

    I don't have was much experience with SEIs, but I had one SEI manager who thought he understood me based on one snapshot of my performance. I switched teams.

    Actually this made me think that this is the HA that annoys me the most. Fe HA doesn't really bother me too much.

    I've noticed that Ti HA of xEIs tend to reach dogmatism. I know, this seems too harsh, but there is a reason for it. There development of a Ti system lacks external feedback, as you mentioned. The result, NOT ALL but lots, of xEIs tend to make the mistake that just because a system is logically consistent it means it's true, which isn't always the case.

    While I am digging myself in a hole, I'll also add that in my experience alpha SFs have awful insight about people and their potential. I have seen this first hand. For example, there was an idiot who liked to use lots of expensive phrases and impressed my SEI manager. There was a woman who was much more competent than this man, but because he used big words and said his opinions with confidence she would frequently consult him for decision making. Eventually he was promoted and the woman worked under him, despite her being there as long as him and as I said a better worker.
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    Ti Ha does freak me out.
    They get excited over things I can't even count the holes in anymore because there's too many.
    They are nice, but they can dig themselves on hell of a grave this way.

    I'll add, I believe I did similar with Fi and I'm still unsure how to handle it, it's both too important and too blurry in my head to make much sense.

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    idk, HA is 2D so it's more like you are mediocre at it I wouldn't say 'sucking' as I reserve that word for the 1D functions. I don't really condemn ILIs for valuing my demo- I condemn them when they think everybody should respect them as some kind of authority maybe when they aren't understanding the importance of Fe enough. There was an unhealthy ILI that used to come to this forum, and basically I laughed when somebody said they never knew how to have fun or maybe anything entertaining because that's what they always came across like. I'm a strange IEI maybe- but I think their Fi seeking is what "humanizes" them in a lot of ways. Without it they are pretty much like a campy version of Krang from Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles with no finesse or nuance lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Yeah. IEIs frustrate me in a few ways with their HA. They typically struggle to enunciate exactly how they reach conclusions. Ie. The logical process they seem to have seems to come out of nowhere. Furthermore, they tend to contradict themselves a lot over a span of time, leading me to disbelieve in the system they have. When they have a question about something they're trying to understand, it typically creates a feedback loop of overanalysis. Finally, they tend to state their conclusions with such certitude that it becomes really irritating when they have nothing to back it up. A good example was in the Putin thread when two IEIs typed Putin ILI based on nothing more than their gut feelings.

    I don't have was much experience with SEIs, but I had one SEI manager who thought he understood me based on one snapshot of my performance. I switched teams.
    It's the bane of Ni + PoLR Te =(
    It's hard dealing with grey area. I want to find the all-encompassing golden conclusion that has no exceptions. Not efficient, eh? No-- a very worthy sacrifice (says my subconscious)

    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    I'll add, I believe I did similar with Fi and I'm still unsure how to handle it, it's both too important and too blurry in my head to make much sense.
    I don't hang with many xLIs, though I do remember this one time my ILI dad said something to the effect of conveying that he viewed himself as a very relationally focused person. I definitely internally laughed in incredulity (and then was awestruck as socionics once again explicitly came true). It also definitely irritated me for no reason good reason.
    It's not that he's shit at relationships, and he's one of the more caring people in my life. It's more the completely genuine conflation of "totally completely average..ish" skill with "very good".

    Add in being personally 4D and unvalued at it and it's like: "YOU're not all that, but also, IT's not all that"
    Last edited by persimmonism; 03-24-2022 at 05:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    Actually this made me think that this is the HA that annoys me the most. Fe HA doesn't really bother me too much.

    I've noticed that Ti HA of xEIs tend to reach dogmatism. I know, this seems too harsh, but there is a reason for it. There development of a Ti system lacks external feedback, as you mentioned. The result, NOT ALL but lots, of xEIs tend to make the mistake that just because a system is logically consistent it means it's true, which isn't always the case.

    While I am digging myself in a hole, I'll also add that in my experience alpha SFs have awful insight about people and their potential. I have seen this first hand. For example, there was an idiot who liked to use lots of expensive phrases and impressed my SEI manager. There was a woman who was much more competent than this man, but because he used big words and said his opinions with confidence she would frequently consult him for decision making. Eventually he was promoted and the woman worked under him, despite her being there as long as him and as I said a better worker.
    What type are you, Toro? I like a lot of what you write (in my threads, at least).

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    LSI frustrates me in how much faith he puts in his HA, but because it's somewhat related to my PoLR I do listen, but sometimes I do think he takes it too far. For Example his Ni will constantly be contemplating the end of the world lol "Covid, the government, MAN YOU CAN'T SEE WHAT'S GOING ON! NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME!" Both my Ni and Ne are like "Chill out." My Ne sees multiple ways a thing can go and my Ni is jaded and takes a guess where it will mostly go and how this CRAZY THING my LSI friend is hung up on will pass and not matter so much anymore, I do fear the day when he is right though. I think it goes like this XSI strong believes this wild thing with there Ni and my Ni is whispering in the back "It's mostly likely not the case." but even if I said that they are so gung ho about it, like they want me to VALUE the Ni " YOU CAN'T SEE WHAT's GOING ON." "No"< either because I don't care or what they see is most likely not what's going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    What type are you, Toro? I like a lot of what you write (in my threads, at least).

    Thanks, I type as SEE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I don't hang with many xLIs, though I do remember this one time my ILI dad said something to the effect of conveying that he viewed himself as a very relationally focused person. I definitely internally laughed in incredulity (and then was awestruck as socionics once again explicitly came true). It also definitely irritated me for no reason good reason.
    It's not that he's shit at relationships, and he's one of the more caring people in my life. It's more the completely genuine conflation of "totally completely average..ish" skill with "very good".

    Add in being personally 4D and unvalued at it and it's like: "YOU're not all that, but also, IT's not all that"
    Lol.
    Tbh, I could say I'm very relationally focused too, but I suck at it.
    It's closer to an obsession than a focus or a skill tbh. I read a bunch of romance books, and other fiction works where a big part of it is relationship building, but I'm still clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    It's the bane of Ni + PoLR Te =(
    It's hard dealing with grey area. I want to find the all-encompassing golden conclusion that has no exceptions. Not efficient, eh? No-- a very worthy sacrifice (says my subconscious)
    A problem arises when the process doesn't take facts into consideration or consider deductive reasoning worthwhile. It's also completely results driven, so you can't spell out why you got your conclusion the way you did - only that it "works" within the framework of how you see the world - which isn't as logically sophisticated as the way I see it.

    The dynamic between ILI and IEI does provide an interesting thought experiment in that it shows how Te concerns a lot of grey area. For Te, there's grey area between the units of measurement, so to speak. For ILI, someone can measurably exist between and around the "tribes" IEI categorizes.

    I feel like there's an equally valid gripe XEI has against the HA of XLI and I'm still waiting to hear it. Ultimately, there's a measure of individuality ILI has that I think IEI doesn't really consider valid because it's too grey to fit within the "all-encompassing golden conclusion" you speak of. Is grey individualism a problem for you, and how do you see it as relating to Fi? Also, how does Fi HA factor into it?

    Maybe I should be asking: why is it a worthy sacrifice to you?
    Last edited by Rune; 03-25-2022 at 03:22 AM.
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    My IEI daughter doesn't HA "understand" why I fly off the handle FE PoLR ... why won't I work on it. <--- I can explain it 'til kingdom come and she'll never get it.

    When my ILI HA comes into her view she can't stop picking at me for "so much collecting and ...." <--- She's like 'it's a waste of time/money/existence/living and the likelihood of my PoLR saying hello is high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    A problem arises when the process doesn't take facts into consideration or consider deductive reasoning worthwhile. It's also completely results driven, so you can't spell out why you got your conclusion the way you did - only that it "works" within the framework of how you see the world - which isn't as logically sophisticated as the way I see it.

    The dynamic between ILI and IEI does provide an interesting thought experiment in that it shows how Te concerns a lot of grey area. For Te, there's grey area between the units of measurement, so to speak. For ILI, someone can measurably exist between and around the "tribes" IEI categorizes.

    I feel like there's an equally valid gripe XEI has against the HA of XLI and I'm still waiting to hear it. Ultimately, there's a measure of individuality ILI has that I think IEI doesn't really consider valid because it's too grey to fit within the "all-encompassing golden conclusion" you speak of. Is grey individualism a problem for you, and how do you see it as relating to Fi? Also, how does Fi HA factor into it?

    Maybe I should be asking: why is it a worthy sacrifice to you?
    This is also something I've observed in EIIs and has a little to do with perfectionism.
    I don't like, or rather, don't know how to deal with grey areas as well as the little iffy areas that arise out of not thoroughly working through something completely. There's a saying to the effect of: the enemy of "good enough" is "perfect". When I work, using shortcuts that make things more efficient and are "good enough" make me anxious, and I opt for the more arduous methods of doing everything manually because then I can make sure everything is "perfect".
    It's a resistance and anxiety that I can't help and I'm only comfortable taking shortcuts when someone else tells me or explains that it's alright, because I can't trust myself to judge.

    What do you mean by grey individualism?

    I don't personally have an equal gripe against Fi HA due to lack of experience with it. The only thing I can say is that Fi HA comes off as lacking flexibility because people things are very case-by-case, IMO as a Fe creative. They try to go one-size-fits-all and make these claims that work for some people and situations, but are far from universal.
    Isn't this exactly what xEIs do in the logical realm? I guess that Fe/Te PoLR gives the types a desire to be rigorous (Ji) in the ethical or logical domain, without the flexibility to deal with its accompanying dynamic grey area (Je).

    Sorry if I'm not totally comprehensible because I'm quite sick.
    Are you able to see any parallel from my first paragraph, with Fe, that you might experience?

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    Interesting, but thanks for actually giving me a reason to hate my kindred though. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    This is also something I've observed in EIIs and has a little to do with perfectionism.
    I don't like, or rather, don't know how to deal with grey areas as well as the little iffy areas that arise out of not thoroughly working through something completely. There's a saying to the effect of: the enemy of "good enough" is "perfect". When I work, using shortcuts that make things more efficient and are "good enough" make me anxious, and I opt for the more arduous methods of doing everything manually because then I can make sure everything is "perfect".
    It's a resistance and anxiety that I can't help and I'm only comfortable taking shortcuts when someone else tells me or explains that it's alright, because I can't trust myself to judge.

    What do you mean by grey individualism?

    I don't personally have an equal gripe against Fi HA due to lack of experience with it. The only thing I can say is that Fi HA comes off as lacking flexibility because people things are very case-by-case, IMO as a Fe creative. They try to go one-size-fits-all and make these claims that work for some people and situations, but are far from universal.
    Isn't this exactly what xEIs do in the logical realm? I guess that Fe/Te PoLR gives the types a desire to be rigorous (Ji) in the ethical or logical domain, without the flexibility to deal with its accompanying dynamic grey area (Je).

    Sorry if I'm not totally comprehensible because I'm quite sick.
    Are you able to see any parallel from my first paragraph, with Fe, that you might experience?
    By grey individualism, I mean a desire to lie outside the confines of tribes or group categories. For IEI, it seems like tribes and group categories are very important, while ILI doesn't necessarily adhere to them. With IEIs, there seems to be a desire to be inclusive and incorporate people into the "fold." I kind of resist this because, to me, there are measurable reasons why I wouldn't necessarily belong to the "fold", or perhaps the "fold" is something I can do part-time, so to speak. Fe PoLR?

    I'm uncertain what you mean by the bolded. I can relate to the desire to make a project "perfect" as opposed to "good enough."

    I hope you feel better soon.
    Last edited by Rune; 03-25-2022 at 11:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    By grey individualism, I mean a desire to lie outside the confines of tribes or group categories. For IEI, it seems like tribes and group categories are very important, while ILI doesn't necessarily adhere to them. With IEIs, there seems to be a desire to be inclusive and incorporate people into the "fold." I kind of resist this because, to me, there are measurable reasons why I wouldn't necessarily belong to the "fold", or perhaps the "fold" is something I can do part-time, so to speak. Fe PoLR?

    I'm uncertain what you mean by the bolded. I can relate to the desire to make a project "perfect" as opposed to "good enough."

    I hope you feel better soon.
    hm personally i think anything to do with groups has more to do with instincts. such as my sp/so ILI father he makes some effort to keep track of them whereas these things don't quite register for my sp/sx ESI mom . do you know your instincts?

    i meant seeing parallels in how you may approach Fe(/Fi) things in the way I approach Te(/Ti) things. for a very simplistic example, such as maybe a resistance or aversion to acknowledging that there may be exceptions to your morals and inner code of how you should and could approach different relational matters

    thank you. since my last reply, a strong fever knocked at the door and refuses to leave lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    hm personally i think anything to do with groups has more to do with instincts. such as my sp/so ILI father he makes some effort to keep track of them whereas these things don't quite register for my sp/sx ESI mom . do you know your instincts?

    i meant seeing parallels in how you may approach Fe(/Fi) things in the way I approach Te(/Ti) things. for a very simplistic example, such as maybe a resistance or aversion to acknowledging that there may be exceptions to your morals and inner code of how you should and could approach different relational matters

    thank you. since my last reply, a strong fever knocked at the door and refuses to leave lol.
    Yeah I think I see parallels. For me, it's a worthy sacrifice to simplify matters from a moral perspective. Morals are universal, so it doesn't matter what the peripheral details are or the contexts are - only that I follow a path of moral integrity. And, furthermore, I have a sense of perfectionism about morals because all the integral parts have to be there for it to be meaningful. Shortcuts just make matters worse - or maybe some huge revision has to take place for me to see the shortcuts as rationalized. Still, they're not justified, only rationalized.

    I think I'm sp/sx, which is weird because I'm pretty detached from my body and sp is very much associated with bodily needs.

    What instinctual stacking are you?
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    I was thinking about HA's and I think any type focusing too much on it becomes "creepy" in a way.

    For IXI, there's this attempt to move from Ip to Ij, there was this idea of people wanting to be their bebefactor going around a few years ago. The IXI will somehow try to to stop the flow of time by crystalizing around one patern, one image, that fit Fi or Ti, and become blind to what is really happening. It's a defence mechanism I'd say.
    It's like they are missing extroverted information and fall back to past paterns to try to make it. It can give very strange results.

    To contrast XSI will do their Ij stuff and then attempt to make it into an universal pattern. I have an exemple of a maybe ESI I knew, not a healthy person. She told me she could judge whether people were good or bad in 5 seconds and was always right, but what I saw was that she cherry picked all the bad the justify her first impression and refused to see any alternative. Her preferences she pushed around as universal paterns.
    She also thought of herself as an INFJ in MBTI and that's why her judgement was supposedly superior, she was the sensor hater kind of person. She liked someone, they got an intuitive typing, she disliked someone, sensor alert. Someone she liked didn't live up to her expectation, finally they aren't an intuitive but a nasty treacherous sensor toying with her.
    Not heathly a person.

    I thought of Ne HA too for some reason. It seems to me XSE try to extract potential out of others. I know an LSE who seem to treat people like tools more than people with feelings, a life of their own, and actual skills that may not be suited for the task. Again, not an healthy specimen of LSE. Te tries to extract practicability out of others in an inneficuent way, while Fe try to extract... whatever it is Fe wants, I'm not sure how to describe it, feels like being pressed like a lemon to me as if I was the lemon given by life and the best thing is to make lemonade out lemons, but I'm a person, not a lemon.
    This also does not describe healthy people nor behaviors.

    I haven't thought much about the others, but I'm sure they're all terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    To contrast XSI will do their Ij stuff and then attempt to make it into an universal pattern. I have an exemple of a maybe ESI I knew, not a healthy person. She told me she could judge whether people were good or bad in 5 seconds and was always right, but what I saw was that she cherry picked all the bad the justify her first impression and refused to see any alternative. Her preferences she pushed around as universal paterns.
    She also thought of herself as an INFJ in MBTI and that's why her judgement was supposedly superior, she was the sensor hater kind of person.
    LMAO im telling u guys its the sensors
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    hm personally i think anything to do with groups has more to do with instincts. such as my sp/so ILI father he makes some effort to keep track of them whereas these things don't quite register for my sp/sx ESI mom . do you know your instincts?

    i meant seeing parallels in how you may approach Fe(/Fi) things in the way I approach Te(/Ti) things. for a very simplistic example, such as maybe a resistance or aversion to acknowledging that there may be exceptions to your morals and inner code of how you should and could approach different relational matters

    thank you. since my last reply, a strong fever knocked at the door and refuses to leave lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Yeah I think I see parallels. For me, it's a worthy sacrifice to simplify matters from a moral perspective. Morals are universal, so it doesn't matter what the peripheral details are or the contexts are - only that I follow a path of moral integrity. And, furthermore, I have a sense of perfectionism about morals because all the integral parts have to be there for it to be meaningful. Shortcuts just make matters worse - or maybe some huge revision has to take place for me to see the shortcuts as rationalized. Still, they're not justified, only rationalized.

    I think I'm sp/sx, which is weird because I'm pretty detached from my body and sp is very much associated with bodily needs.

    What instinctual stacking are you?
    You'd think there would be a more symmetrical relationship between HAs, but I think the way the HAs are framed are messier than the dichotomies found in the rest of Socionics. Perhaps they could be better explained.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

  22. #22
    Rune's Avatar
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    Re ILI hidden agenda:
    I think I just pieced together that there's a moral significance to loving, which speaks to how low my dimensionality of Fi is.

    Also, because I place a certain significance on it, it explains why I mistyped as INFP in MBTI.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

  23. #23
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Re ILI hidden agenda:
    I think I just pieced together that there's a moral significance to loving, which speaks to how low my dimensionality of Fi is.

    Also, because I place a certain significance on it, it explains why I mistyped as INFP in MBTI.
    "There's a moral significance to loving? What does that even mean?", says the 1D Fi LIE.

  24. #24
    Rune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    "There's a moral significance to loving? What does that even mean?", says the 1D Fi LIE.
    I'm still trying to figure out out myself.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

  25. #25
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out out myself.

    Well, let me know when you do, because I haven't a clue.

  26. #26
    adage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, let me know when you do, because I haven't a clue.
    To love makes life shine brighter. It gives meaning.
    It's also much better than being loved because it comes from you, no one can take it away.
    It puts you in a vulnerable position, but it's also by giving love that you can recieve it, it makes you strong in a different way than what you're used to.
    Some people use the word love to express the idea of God because once you feel it truly, it imbues everything, it's in everything and around everything.

    I remember when I first felt love and looked in the mirror to see my own eyes shine, they didn't do that before. I looked dark and mean and suddenly there were stars, gentle stars shining instead of cold dead eyes.
    I thought I wanted that forever.
    It didn't work out so well all the times, it's a weak and fragile thing, one I'm scared of breaking, one I sometimes feel others don't deserve, but it shouldn't be about them.
    I can't tell you how to reach it, you can't Te build it, you can't Ni plan it, all you can do is know there's better and wish to find it.
    Also, you gotta know it comes from you and not from the object that might inspire it.
    It comes from inside, if you try to put it into the hands of anything outside you, you will lose it.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Morals are universal.
    It sound a bit like 4D Ti value? Or at least Ji lead.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 03-27-2022 at 02:33 PM.

  28. #28
    Will we start over, or circle the drain crazymaisy's Avatar
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    ILI HA is applied to objects, ideas, and maybe sometimes people, imo.

    Also for being called Critic people think ILI/intp are very negative people. No, we love a lot of stuff, so much, it's so FFFFFy!

    Though it's internal love with external objects imbued with that love.

    Negativist to show what needs to be fixed, or to show that something has potential not to work if..., etc. All for good to come instead of bad.

    'Tis why NT/NF/SP/SJ divisions and other personality shite doesn't work well for many of us.
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

  29. #29
    Rune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    It sound a bit like 4D Ti value? Or at least Ji lead.
    No it's not. I'm just getting into my HA function. Read my posts carefully and you will see that I'm a dynamic type thinker. Not static at all.

    This is a common cause for mistypes, as I explained in post 22.
    Last edited by Rune; 03-27-2022 at 05:38 PM.
    Just on the border of your waking mind,
    There lies another time
    Where darkness and light are one,
    And as you tread the halls of sanity
    You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond

    I have a message from another time.

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