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Thread: Si - continuing from chat

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Default Si - continuing from chat

    We had some debate in chat about Si the other day. I couldn't continue there, takes too much time to work out the details. I'll continue here freely inspired by some of the themes that came up. I feel it's absolutely necessary to go into the finer distinctions, because otherwise these things will never be addressed.


    "Sensation is about reality"

    Yes and no. This is common sense and how we talk about sensation in everyday language. But as a psychic function and especially in the introverted attitude it's slightly different. A part of the general sensing experience comes from the subject, and Si focuses on this part. If Si is really well developed it can get to the point that reality falls into the background. Si is still sensation, but a sensation altered by the subject. You can compare this with Ti. "A thinking without facts".

    "Is Si artistic?"

    I would say it's often considered aesthetic. Si is usually not expressed so this is an exception anyway, but Si as an artistic or aesthetic function comes from the fact that it's introverted and focused on primordial sensations. It's as if the objects around as were impregnated by something genuine, psychic, primordial. An eye for the finer, deeper nuances. But Si in itself doesn't express anything, so the person has to develop some rational function in order to express Si.

    "...but this sounds like intuition (Ni)"

    Imo socionics has a bias were things are described from an extraverted standpoint. So as soon as an introverted / phenomenological view is introduced it sounds weird. But if we talk about introverted functions we have to use introverted language. It's impossible to understand Si if we just talk about cookies.

    "Is Si abstract?"

    Totally depends on what we mean by that. It's not abstract in the intuitive sense. Si is about what you hear, see, smell etc. But from an extraverted standpoint it could be considered abstract because it disregards the direct objective impact only focusing on the inner impression. But then the extravert forgets that there are hidden things also, even sensations can be hidden. But from the introverted standpoint it is very concrete and real, nothing is missing.

    "Is Si practical?"

    SLIs can obviously be practical. Si+Te is practical in more detailed work. Si makes the person interested in anything that stimulates inner impressions. SEIs can be interested in all kinds of practical work and materials but the quality of their work can be bad. I would consider Si useful in finer, more impressionistic work if combined with a rational function. But in my experience Se is more suited for the practical work people usually do.


    Summary: Si is about sensing impressions evoked by the environment, "innervation phenomena" and the body and nervous processes as felt from within. It's a one-sided type of sensation where the object is more or less disregarded.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Wavebury's Avatar
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    Well thought out and well-written, Tallmo.
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    adage's Avatar
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    Cool.
    Introverted functions being described by introverted functions, we lack that. I really like this part "It's as if the objects around as were impregnated by something genuine, psychic, primordial." I think it shows some great nuance with Ni as it's true that from an extroverted standpoint, all introverted functions look kind of like the same mystical nonsense sometimes.
    Ni is more like a spark that happens inwardly, it does overwrite sensorial input and throws meaningfullness outward, the world start to shine. When my mind ignites like that, I can feel it on my skin as if I was shining.
    I'd say for Si, it seems the potential lies in the objects and can make the subject shine, that's repressed Ne interacting with conscious Si. The Si has to take the potential into itself as a sensation for the shine to happen to the subject.
    In Ni, the sparks inside has to be outawrdly expressed as a sensorial input for the subject to shine.

    I realize what I'm talking about is veering into the spiritual domain and doesn't reflect an average but an ideal state of mind for those functions.



    I want add to "Sensation is about reality"
    Sensation is limited by what sensorial stimuli are avalaible, and the capacity of the sensorial organs to capture those. For exemple, colors are more red from my left eye and blue from my right eye which means I can see a scene in three different color scheme, and they rarely all look good.
    This is more Se, because that's the function I value, even Se is about perceptions and not reality, it's reality as perceived by a subject, all people are like this.
    It's a thing Jung described, how introverted look self-centered because their focus is on something inward but that extroverted are just as self-centered because Te goes with Fi in both Fi and Te lead. The introverted, subjective nature is simply repressed in extroverts, but it's all self-centered an egoistical vision as it's what is being described, the ego.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    Cool.
    Introverted functions being described by introverted functions, we lack that. I really like this part "It's as if the objects around as were impregnated by something genuine, psychic, primordial." I think it shows some great nuance with Ni as it's true that from an extroverted standpoint, all introverted functions look kind of like the same mystical nonsense sometimes.
    Some people will scream "Ni!" if I use words like "primordial" or "psychic". But sensation (Si) has a primordial, psychic character just as intuition (Ni) has it. Even for an observer it's possible to see or at least guess the psychic character of the sensations. We can see that a SLI or SEI seems to have a sensitivity for the environment that goes beyond the concrete impact, and they might sit and stare at something insignificant or the sky or the wall. Or they might react at something that doesn't make any sense from an extraverted standpoint.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    adage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Some people will scream "Ni!" if I use words like "primordial" or "psychic". But sensation (Si) has a primordial, psychic character just as intuition (Ni) has it. Even for an observer it's possible to see or at least guess the psychic character of the sensations. We can see that a SLI or SEI seems to have a sensitivity for the environment that goes beyond the concrete impact, and they might sit and stare at something insignificant or the sky or the wall. Or they might react at something that doesn't make any sense from an extraverted standpoint.
    Yeah.
    tbh "to feel" is often the best way I can describe my experience, intuition is felt in a non-feeling non-sensation way that has zero other potentialy satisfactory wording for me so far, so it goes into F typings fast.
    Also, my use of the word "potential" tends to make people go Ne.
    I just can feel meaning in the word potential for some reason.
    I mean it closer to essence or something primordial than the Ne potential thing I think I don't even understand.

    And, I have some physical issues that NEEDS I care about my comfort to live well with, and if I talk about that, what do I get? Si! lol

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    "Sensation is about reality"

    Si is subjective reaction to physical reality.

    "Is Si artistic?"

    Creating of new and inspiring pleasant states is possible in any function.

    "...but this sounds like intuition (Ni)"

    Intuition is about imagination. Si evaluates the existent, at best from the memory. The evaluated may exist in imagination too and created by N initially.

    "Is Si abstract?"

    No. But it can be applied to imagined before by N.

    "Is Si practical?"

    Yes, as S is about physical world.
    Useful? It may evaluate what correlates with other tasks. For example, feeling of no pain generally means better state of body to do something. Pleasantly looking place mb better for staying alive there. Beautiful woman may have better abbility to born healthy and strong children.
    All 8 functions have practical use as they help to be alive, - in equal degree. They are kinds of perception and reaction in human mind for objective reality.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post


    Summary: Si is about sensing impressions evoked by the environment, "innervation phenomena" and the body and nervous processes as felt from within. It's a one-sided type of sensation where the object is more or less disregarded.
    Yes, yes, and yes!

    I remember me and an ILI went skydiving.

    I told her what it felt like for me, I told her it felt like a rollercoaster with no seat belt. The object was compared to a previous sensation I already had stored up.
    I asked her what it felt like and she told me it felt like rushing wind. She just described the object lol.
    I thought that was a great example of the difference in sensing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Yes, yes, and yes!

    I remember me and an ILI went skydiving.

    I told her what it felt like for me, I told her it felt like a rollercoaster with no seat belt. The object was compared to a previous sensation I already had stored up.
    I asked her what it felt like and she told me it felt like rushing wind. She just described the object lol.
    I thought that was a great example of the difference in sensing.
    Although I don't know what Tallmo is going to answer, I wouldn't make much of that example as any type can come up with a colorful comparison of a sensation if it's something that really ‘hits’ them. Being as it is that type recognition is a much discussed topic here, Si lead is maybe better recognized by an inordinate focus on the reaction to physical reality, usually inclined to pleasurable things, with a dynamic type of speech. It usually translates into being able to discuss for hours the process of wine-making, describe a hobby to the detail, talk about things you've done during the day in a very concrete and detailed manner, along with possession of IP temperament that appears rather receptive and not ‘aggressive’ at all. An SEI is rather noticeable against Betas who seem to be more ‘to the point’ when it comes to those matters.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    I would say in a nutshell, Si is 'nature.' A kind of balancing homeostasis. The SLI example, they are often socially awkward and shy but good at doing physical jobs/chores/tasks and being an IEE's slave. They don't seem to mind whereas personally I have fantasized in my head that eventually I would say something that would piss off IEE or refuse to be their physical slave like that. Having SI polr like EIE/LIE often makes a person prickly and abrasive and a bit of an asshole. And often times, sadly nature loses- trees get burned or whatever.

    Si is caring about the sensitives of others not just yourself. It's not perfect pure empathy or something gay like that, but it does naturally make one feel like anything you put out will bounce back to you and equalize things. A SEI woman gave me a compassionate look one time because she knew growing up I was a bullied loser, and she genuinely felt bad for me whereas an LIE would just be 'get a job' like a cold logical asshole. ((I'm being campy, LIE still might feel bad but in a more constipated Fi way and not the obvious diahrrea Fe way where you don't have a good enough poker face.)) Fe and Fe valuing is a typing mirroring after all. So you better feel somebody's natural pain as if it is your own rather than heartlessly being like 'stop playing victim!' like what me and a Vewy Scawwy nawcisst get annoyed by.

    LIEs/EIEs are often narcissistic that way due to their 1D Si polr. A large part of succeeding in business is in the end not caring about how other people respond to things and only narcissistically fulfilling your own pocket book ((Kind of a 'duh' right, but it makes sense...)) ... EIEs care a bit more naturally as they are F types but they still will value their own sensitives over that of others. At the same token, you can also genuinely care about another person's sensitives but be highly manipulative and a covert narcissist....which to be honest many unhealthy SEIs exist where they are just drug addicts that use other people for their own gratifications.

    Ni and Si are often confused with one another because I think in essence both are about the "we" instead of the "me" or "You" like when Hannibal used a lot of Ni but then Clarice said he needs to analyze himself not just others lol. but I think organically, both Ni and Si are always doing this anyway you know, that's why they often get confused and part of why IEI/SEI are lookalikes/easily confused by others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Although I don't know what Tallmo is going to answer, I wouldn't make much of that example as any type can come up with a colorful comparison of a sensation if it's something that really ‘hits’ them. Being as it is that type recognition is a much discussed topic here, Si lead is maybe better recognized by an inordinate focus on the reaction to physical reality, usually inclined to pleasurable things, with a dynamic type of speech. It usually translates into being able to discuss for hours the process of wine-making, describe a hobby to the detail, talk about things you've done during the day in a very concrete and detailed manner, along with possession of IP temperament that appears rather receptive and not ‘aggressive’ at all. An SEI is rather noticeable against Betas who seem to be more ‘to the point’ when it comes to those matters.
    My example is showing that I disregarded the object for a past sensation I compared it to. Sure any type can be colorful with their description but not everytime is gonna disregard the object for a familiar sensation to describe the object they are sensing.

    For example one thing that used to annoy me about Se sensing was they always say everything smells like "shit", if it smelt bad lol, it's a stupid thing to be annoyed at I know but I always had this gut reaction to be like "No! It smells like rotten eggs!" or something more specific, once again disregarding the object and comparing it to the past sensation it reminds me of, but maybe the Se sensing figured "shit" was general and sufficient/powerful enough to describe the smell, maybe even a little Ni in there just encompassing all bad smells as just "shit", idk. Not 100% certain that's an Se thing but it makes some sense to me.

  11. #11
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Yes, yes, and yes!

    I remember me and an ILI went skydiving.

    I told her what it felt like for me, I told her it felt like a rollercoaster with no seat belt. The object was compared to a previous sensation I already had stored up.
    I asked her what it felt like and she told me it felt like rushing wind. She just described the object lol.
    I thought that was a great example of the difference in sensing.
    I think you might have misunderstood this. It's not about comparing with anything previous (that's the (in)famous mbti misconception of Si). Si is not personal.

    This is maybe a clearer example of Se vs Si:

    Weight lifting & working out:

    Se - direct contact with the object. Lifting heavy, and being stimulated by that.
    Si - can also enjoy weight lifting, but focus is on how it feels in the body, the inner reactions. There is no direct focus on actually lifting the weight as far as Si is concerned, only indirectly through the inner sensory experience.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I think you might have misunderstood this. It's not about comparing with anything previous (that's the (in)famous mbti misconception of Si). Si is not personal.

    This is maybe a clearer example of Se vs Si:

    Weight lifting & working out:

    Se - direct contact with the object. Lifting heavy, and being stimulated by that.
    Si - can also enjoy weight lifting, but focus is on how it feels in the body, the inner reactions. There is no direct focus on actually lifting the weight as far as Si is concerned, only indirectly through the inner sensory experience.
    Yea, my ESTP friend gets a kick out of "fighting" the weight up, I just like the sensation and actually like to feel the muscles that are being affeced, he doesn't care about that because he knows what areas the workout is working, I feel like it's not doing much if I don't feel it in the muscle it's supposed to be effecting.
    So I relate to that as well but the mbti version definitely is true for me, I can almost never truly experience something as a one off experience it is almost always compared to a previous sensation in order for me to understand it.

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    No... you are all confused by the words 'introverted' and 'subjective', that subjectivity & objectivity are on somewhat of a continuum and that introversion in Jungian terms is relative. Subjectivity is literally "the quality of existing in someone's mind rather than the external world.". Si is an external function, ... a sensation that arises from within the human body did not arise from the subjects mind, the human body is not directly part of the mind.
    Si is relatively more subjective than Se, but contrast it with Ni or Ne - they are internal functions, they relate perceptions with other information and this occurs within the individuals mind. This is why they are imaginative, while the S functions are concerned with that which is material and tangible. Si is more concerned with the connection between the subject & object than Se is, that is the relative difference. The wheel IM model has quite a bit to say about this.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 02-25-2022 at 11:28 AM.

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    Local Legend Toro's Avatar
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    Pi functions are the most complex in socionics. Si in my view is a perfect harmony (or disharmony) of sensations. I don't have a perfect explanation so I'll just put out my thoughts on it.

    Sitting out on a balcony: a light ocean breeze, the soft sound of waves crashing in the distance, the swirl of purples and oranges from the setting sun, the tangy taste of tobacco from a cigar.

    OR

    It's a scorching hot day, you have a migraine right behind your left eye, you are outside in the sun and it seems so bright you can barely keep your eyes open, you mow the grass and when you smell the cut grass your nose begins to itch and your eyes water.

    Si is different for everyone, it's internal so explaining it sounds too Se. But Se is much more focused than Si, Si takes in everything all at once and measures the harmony of the environment. I suppose that's the static and dynamic difference?
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    DogOfDanger's Avatar
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    "it's internal so explaining it sounds too Se"
    It's actually an external function in terms of the information aspects.

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