Alphas, what are your opinions on Gammas?
Hey all, I'm new here, just trying to get acquainted! I have reason to believe I am ILE-Ne; I have lived with an ESI-Fi mom my whole life and our differences in interests, worldviews, opinions, morals, etc. are huge. For every way I see something should be done, she sees almost the complete opposite lol, and for every way she thinks something should be done, I see almost the complete opposite lol.
Anyways, for any Alphas out there, what are your thoughts/experiences with Gammas?
I'm ESE-Fe. My mother is also ESI, and an acquaintance is SEE. I also have two friends who are ILI. Weirdly, the ILIs are tolerable and I actually get along with them quite well while the two Gamma SFs are insufferable. In theory, however, Gamma NTs sound boring and Gamma SFs sound awesome.
My ESI parent lacks logical consistency and is completely morals-driven, it throws me off quite a bit. They are also too pushy for my liking, far too controlling. The SEE acquaintance is pure emotion --> action, she is abrasive, loud, and necessitates having her way. It disrupts the atmosphere, leaves everyone feeling slightly awkward, and breaks conversation. I am impulsive and am not so different from her, she is like me but somehow worse.
I hope this helps. Do you and your mother get along well?
For me, it's kind of weird. She's extremely empathetic and caring, yet she can be really unsympathetic and demanding at times, as contrary as those two are. She can be 'controlling' to an extent, like whenever I say something or she wants me to do something, she can be extremely insistent on having me do it, like raising her voice super loud and gritting her teeth.Originally Posted by IceAura
She can be very forceful, being pretty pushy to me sometimes, but she makes it a point to 'respect my boundaries and life goals' which sounds pretty Fi to be honest, which I appreciate, but it becomes meaningless for her not to push there, when she pushes on every little detail in my life like chores, doing things properly and correctly, etc. which really frustrates me. She is very moralistic, which can be okay sometimes, but often she sees me as mostly 'boundary-pushing' and seems to favor empathy and appreciativeness towards others, even if that ruins all the fun where nobody's humanity was even being infringed upon. I find that she does ruin my fun a lot, like I will try to do something fun in the house but then she will always say I'm being inappropriate, or I'm disrupting something in the house, or I'm making a mess of the house, or I'm being too loud, or whatever, and it becomes frustrating at times.
I love her, but we get in lots of fights sometimes, usually just involving chores mostly haha, but other times I find it hard to connect with her since we enjoy none of the same things and we have nothing in common. I appreciate her level of empathy, but her insistency on having things done a specific way and planning things out and having to watch my mouth all the time, reluctant to talk with them since they mostly talk about Fi stuff that I am not well-versed in at all, can leave me feeling pretty alienated. There was the impression of me there that I was introverted because I never really talked to them, when in reality I always tried to do things with them but they never had anything to do, always focusing on productivity and specific activities where you 'get to know each other' which doesn't make sense to me in my opinion.
I had an ILI friend, we had all of the same interests, but he acted a lot like my mom in that he would point out every factual inaccuracy of everything I was saying, routinely told me I didn't think things through, always told me that sometimes my jokes were just downright offensive, very moralistic and appreciative of personal relationships over just general moods, etc. He was a great guy and I'd probably still hang out with him, but that was my experience with him
i know ILE who makes fun of ESIs problems telling him he should stop overreacting. ESI gets made fun of a lot for being stupid/illogical. ESI is depressed bc of it.
forgot to add ILE is upset when ESI takes his meme insults seriously while some of them are demeaning of ESI identifies with
Last edited by VewyScawwyNawcissist; 01-17-2022 at 02:33 PM.
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I can see ESI see everything ILE did is irrelevant and make no sense lol. I sometime want to approach things the Ne way (to dev my Ne a little bit) and get judge by my mom immediately. But she's Normalize subtype, can't help...
I have problem with ESE about morals exactly like you with ESI. But I can say something very immoral with my ESI mom without being judge too much (I say it the Fi way)
@Ravash7, I watched an LIE mother interact with her ILE son, and it was not good. The level of misunderstanding was huge, and this did nothing for the ILE's personal development.
I recommend that you actively seek out some SEIs for fun and understanding and, if you want someone who is logical (but not the same way you are), then find an LII friend. Or, hang out with some other ILEs. If you are in HS, there might be a Maker Fair or a Maker Place near you, and you'll find plenty of ILEs there.
If you have an Invention Museum nearby, or a Science Fiction club, or any group that includes inventive nerds, you'll find your tribe there.
Good luck to you.
ILI and LIE are interesting. Sometimes I get a particularly clear glimpse of their thought process and it's surreal in how similar, yet different, they are to me. And ILIs and LIEs think differently from each other, too.
Beyond that, I have a good memory of dancing with an ILI once, if that counts. But she was probably the closest I've ever been to a Gamma NT, which is to say not very much.
I haven't really been close to either Gamma SF either. My sister is an SEE, and she's a fine person for her age (she's younger than me, and she makes the sorts of bad/embarrassing decisions I'd like to spare her from, but everyone probably has to make and learn from in order to mature). But I don't really know how to hold a conversation with her. She seems actively disinterested in anything I have to tell her, and even if I ask about her life she seems as if she just responds with what's necessary to avoid a longer conversation. For my part I don't know what to do with most of what she says to me. We're on decent terms now, but we fought a lot when we were younger. I'd be just as willing to chalk that up to her being a devil as ITR, though. Lol.
I haven't known any other SEEs particularly well, so I can't speak to how ITR tends to go with them on a very close level, but I would say that I generally respect SEEs from a distance and tend to feel irritated by them if I have to personally interact with them. They have a lot of ambition and energy, and a relatively stable and consistent sense of the world (I guess I'm talking about Fi), which I genuinely admire. Still, from the limited experiences I've had, I seem to have a tendency to get into arguments with them within a few minutes of meeting unless I consciously check my tongue.
ESIs...I'm not really sure what to say about them. On a superficial level they seem to generally have similar values and energy levels. It's easy to get along with them on that level. But I also get a sense that if I were to dig into them I wouldn't like what I'd find. @Braingel once said she felt that I didn't like Fi, and maybe that's just the issue. But the easiest example I can think of is their view toward romance, which I think is generally stereotyped by Socionicists as "golddiggerish." That's maybe an oversimplification and you can complain about generalizations, but Socionics is all about generalizations and this one gets at something that is difficult for me to describe in another way. Basically, I'm more or less subconsciously uneasy with how I feel they form Fi relations, or maybe you could say their basis for doing so. But maybe it's something else since I don't feel this about EIIs.
Some ESIs also get very "triggered" by Ne, and that can be tiring/make for boring conversations.
That sounds harsh, mine is similar. She is pushy but it's "for my own good." I am someone who requires a high amount of freedom and autonomy, so I dislike these kinds of people, even if they wish the best for me. She's also far too closed off for me but unlike your mother, mine actually has no idea what is factually accurate and what isn't so I need to help her out in that realm. I also feel bad that you have a parent who is your conflictor.
Your ILI friend sounds fun, I do not think things through so that would be helpful for me but I understand that it wouldn't be for some. You need some non-Fi valuing friends dang /j
"Some ESIs also get very "triggered" by Ne, and that can be tiring/make for boring conversations."
Oh lord yeah, I have an LSI teacher and an ESI mother, I love interesting conversation but they immediately shoot it down: "But that's not ever actually going to happen." The LSI teacher is an English teacher, too. Perhaps Ne PoLRs should not be allowed to be English teachers... /j
I like Gamma. I tend to get along with Gamma in general. I’ve only had issues with an ILI before but that was NTR. Gammas are democratic and I respect them on that. I tend to not get extremely close to thing but I like them. At least, the more honest and friendly ones I do. They tend to dislike me more then I dislike them lol. There are things I disagree as lot with gamma values but I do respect them.
This I can confirm for at least the ESI-Se I dated. I broke off relations with him because he begun insisting that I should lend him quite some money, even though we hadn't been dating for long at all. He repeatedly ignored my argumentation why I didn't want to lend him money. I felt extremely pressured by him and regarding money I don't like that. It also made me feel unloved, because it gave me the feeling that he was more interested into my money than me.
Last edited by Armitage; 01-17-2022 at 07:07 PM.
I went out with an ESI and we had a great time, but then I made the mistake of telling her approximately what I earn, and after that, she wouldn't go out with me again.
On the other hand, on my first date with another ESI, she told me right away how much she made (it was above-average, even for males) and so I told her what I make, insofar as I make any given amount, and we continued to go out many times after that. She never offered to pick up the check, though, which I didn't like.
I don't expect an ESI to make as much as I do, but I do expect her to be able to pay her own way. I look for that because it evens out the power relationship. After all, I'm looking for a "strong" woman.
The only time I've blown up in public was because of the way an SEE was treating my mom. Besides that, I have a deep, fundamental dislike for people that are "unreasonable" as I put it, meaning that when you have a disagreement, they simply turtle up and stick to their guns rather than hash it out on the basis of common sense reasoning. The inaccessibility of some people's beliefs is a huge problem in society. Some of what people have said in this thread reminds me of that, but I'm not convinced that's only gamma or even all gammas.
But honestly I typically don't run into any problems with any gammas in my day to day life. I just see them as a different kind of person that needs an approach that works for that person.
*me trying to come up with some extremely outlandish goal or idea while talking to my mom*
*her response*: "Sure that would be great, but it's unrealistic that could ever actually going to happen."
... sounds about right haha
Yeah she's highly ethical, but she often reaches out to people for factual accuracies on things, usually to back up her ethics. She's told me that she has always felt like "she is not naturally intelligent at all"; she always told me that she excelled at school by just 'working super hard to get into college' rather than 'intelligence', which in my head, I think, "well yeah??", but she claims she works 'extra hard to overcompensate for her lack of intelligence'. She is very rational in terms of decision-making however, but with regards to factual information, she always kind of outsources it to some Te valuing type (usually her LIE boyfriend or her other ILI/SLI boyfriend who are both extremely intelligent). Yeah while I always felt close to my mom in terms of security, I have never felt close to her on a personal scale, in terms of hobbies and interests.
Yeah he was really fun sometimes, he was a memester like me, we played the same games, he sounded really monotone and logical all the time like a typical Fe PoLR, but he still surprisingly had a fun type of humor. Ikr about the non-Fi valuing friends haha, I'm stuck on my dad's type but I know he is either SLE or LSE for sure, leaning much more towards SLE, he just lets anything go and says the most outlandish shit haha, it's pretty funny sometimes but he can be way too abrasive and obsessed with using his Ti for Se stuff like power dynamics in dating and stuff, which I care so little about lol.
Hello!
I couldn't completely follow the nature of the contradiction you were laying out in the quoted portion above, and i wonder if you could elaborate/clarify.
From what i got:
your mother claims she isn't super smart and that she works hard
you think "well yeah", meaning, how else but through hard work would one compensate for a (at least self-perceived) deficit in intelligence
then you say "but she claims..." -- to me this seemed in line what was presented earlier, and not opposing it?
it seems common to me for ESIs to recognize themselves as not that smart and to work hard, indeed such a thing (of the latter) is in the Ti description of us. then possibly a common path of self-growth is like "yeah but i have other strengths; there are different kinds of intelligence," though getting from these realizations to finding ways to make a go of it in conventional career paths still seems far from easy, ime.
Thanks and if it's not too much Fi, would like to say i'm glad youve found socionics and are making a go of making sense of your experiences here! I've experienced conflict relations (of the ESI-ILE nature) firsthand and it can really be difficult. socionics has helped me in this regard. It seems a very good thing to me that you are exploring the nature of your relationships and experiences and at the age of 18, too. i came to it much later (late twenties) so it's interesting for me to see the connections you make, given your life stage and Ne gifts. Hope you enjoy yourself here and family situations improve.
I said "well yeah" because, at least where I live in the USA, the purpose of college isn't necessarily about intelligence, but rather persistence and responsibility. College involves intelligence and a lot of hard work, and to get into college you often just have to do lots of persistent hard work, so that is why I was kind of like 'yeah duh', but I think what I meant to say is that she worked very hard to get scholarships because supposedly she believed she didn't just have the 'natural intelligence' to be gifted and allow her intelligence itself to get her into college. Idk. She lived with an abusive mom that basically did nothing for anyone, making her feel like she was responsible to take care of all of the dozens of kids in her household (adopted), and during school she said she worked 'very hard to get scholarships' so she could 'get away from her mom's house as soon as possible'.
And thank you, it's glad to be talking with other people about socionics too! I've talked about it with my mom extensively and she is surprisingly more than happy to hear about it, in fact she thinks it is fascinating and she is surprised at how good and quickly I can supposedly analyze people's personalities to a T. I've told her about my type and the relation between us, and how that's kind of why we never seem to be on the same wavelength ever, and she has actually been very understanding in empathizing with it. When it comes to dealing with it in the moment though, when I decide to go after some crazy idea without any forethought, then things are still a little rough, but instincts are instincts and it's best to give the other person distance from what I see (even though i am not good at that lol).
Bad experience overall. When it comes to NT gammas, that evolutionary logic coupled with Ni makes waay too complex and unnecessary systems. Bending space,
Object Oriented Programing instead of procedural. All of that is so very nonsensical and overcomplicated to resolve simple matters that at times only need straight up, well defined structure. Also,
they are always cheating their way to something.
As for gamma SF, I can't even think about it 'cause I start to get pissed off. I think every disagreement I had (specially online) with someone was against a gamma SF who just wouldn't think
on their own account, always appealing to "authority" (1d Te). Always exposing their first immediate subjective reaction, no matter how disrespectful it was. Always deffending bad plotlines
in books, movies, always sucking up to crappy passive-aggressive characters like Light(deeathnote) or Loki. Some SF subtypes get shit done and that's admirable I think. But it's always like that:
they never really teach you what they know, they get shit done and that's it, they complain when you don't. But none of their duals get shit done, NT duals just cheat their way and overcomplicate everything, and I'm starting to think they overcomplicate sh*t on purpose just to form a little bubble and a cult.
I mean, it's already common sense they are kind of villains, who never seen a movie where the scientist make a new discovery hoping it will do great for humanity and receive credit for it. Only for it
to be stolen by some psychopath SEE who is in charge of the company for some nefarious selfish purpose.
I mean the overcomplicated stuff is already obvious all over socionics, Grigory Reinin is an ILI anyway and his description of ILI is basically a copy and paste of narcissistic personality disorder.
So his dichotomies are only there to overcomplicate stuff even more and gain more adepts to the cult, no wonder they aren't as popular as the original dichotomies.
But I understand and agree with Gulenko that gammas and betas are basically the motor of society, without them, Alphas and Deltas would just do jack sh*t all day.
So thank you gammas for existing but also go f*ck yourselves you delusional gooftards.
Your summary of gamma NT is a bit off. You should qualify it with "selfish". Selfish is what you are discussing which changes the dynamic and every single type changes properties depending on selfishness or selflessness.
They're shitty shitmouths with poopy knickers
Hello hawk
My dual at that
This actually mirrors my own experience with my LII cousin and his ESE dual. They are both very happily married and their children are also likewise mostly happy and value my attentions. I am confused as to how, in hindsight, I likely offended them yet they never seem to notice and still appreciate my presence and opinions.
I guess this is because "Quasi-Identicals" share a very high dimensional understanding of their base functions. The LII actually knows in great depth and detail howand
work and can easily imagine how their "shadow" would approach, deal with, and/or otherwise act in a given situation.
The difference is in what they'd do personally. Gammas are more prone to relying on the maxim of brute force and how if it isn't working you aren't using enough. Delta's would agree, but with their own caveats due to/
. Alphas are similar, but their version of "brute force" is social. If they aren't conceding to the overwhelming group consensus you just aren't ostracizing them hard enough. Beta types would agree with us with a similar caveat. They would/do think there's some
/
"better" way to go about it over the "orbital bombardment" approach I'd likely recommend to be used if the enemy force fails at
so hard they, well, deserve it.
Surely, there is some lesser step on the escalation ladder that'd achieve the same result right? For them, perhaps, yes. For us? Well, if we're even engaging in Orbital Bombardments it's because it is literally the best and fastest way to resolve this issue with the minimal loss of life. People think ILI's are amoral robots who only care about achieving their own goals regardless of the cost. If you truly know one and consider one a friend I dare you to tell me we're actually like that.
We may outwardly appear to be automatons, but put us under pressure, put us in a situation where someone has to make a sacrifice. We're the ones who will do so. After all, someone has to do X and, well, if nobody else can be convinced to do what they ought to do that leaves it to me.
As a point of curiosity, you ever find yourself in a similar position. Y'know. Everyone else refuses to do/fulfill a given job/duty and you do it, begrudgingly, because you know that if you don't the whole operation will go to shit either metaphorically or literally?
The stereotype as I understand it is that ILIs are superficially cold and calculating, but are really irrational (in the Socionical sense) and are moved by strong passions, while LIIs can seem diplomatic and friendly superficially but tend to lack warmth on a deeper level. There was an analogy I once read to the effect of "ILIs are cold humans; LIIs are warm robots." That's probably going a little too far, but it gets at something. Even so, both types' actions are often similar.This actually mirrors my own experience with my LII cousin and his ESE dual. They are both very happily married and their children are also likewise mostly happy and value my attentions. I am confused as to how, in hindsight, I likely offended them yet they never seem to notice and still appreciate my presence and opinions.
I guess this is because "Quasi-Identicals" share a very high dimensional understanding of their base functions. The LII actually knows in great depth and detail how
The difference is in what they'd do personally. Gammas are more prone to relying on the maxim of brute force and how if it isn't working you aren't using enough. Delta's would agree, but with their own caveats due to
Surely, there is some lesser step on the escalation ladder that'd achieve the same result right? For them, perhaps, yes. For us? Well, if we're even engaging in Orbital Bombardments it's because it is literally the best and fastest way to resolve this issue with the minimal loss of life. People think ILI's are amoral robots who only care about achieving their own goals regardless of the cost. If you truly know one and consider one a friend I dare you to tell me we're actually like that.
We may outwardly appear to be automatons, but put us under pressure, put us in a situation where someone has to make a sacrifice. We're the ones who will do so. After all, someone has to do X and, well, if nobody else can be convinced to do what they ought to do that leaves it to me.
As a point of curiosity, you ever find yourself in a similar position. Y'know. Everyone else refuses to do/fulfill a given job/duty and you do it, begrudgingly, because you know that if you don't the whole operation will go to shit either metaphorically or literally?
I don't entirely understand what you're getting at about force, but ILIs making sacrifices for a cause no one else is willing to make seems generally accurate. I think LIIs characteristically do that too though. I've been in those kinds of situations this year. The inner experience seems different though, and I'm not sure how much of that is due to valued vs unvalued Fi, or between rationality and irrationality. With rational types, even strong passions seem to be much more in conscious control, relatively. Something about the way you say "begrudgingly" is interesting, for instance. An LII would get annoyed in that kind of situation, but they don't like dwelling on stressful or unpleasant emotions, and because they're rational types they just don't. There's a flash of anger or irritation at the time, and that's usually it. But you seem like you've been thinking on this theme for a while. So that's an interesting comparison.
This tracks with my experience and how I actually guessed you'd feel about a situation like that. You'd still do about the same thing I'd do, but the reasons would be radically different and the feelings involved almost diametrically opposed if we really got into the matter.
For the ILI all the others who cannot and will not recognize how a sacrifice is required, or rather, are likely doing everything they can to try to
Fine! I'll fucking do it because you idiots would rather wait around until someone else does it even if waiting might doom us all! You fucking rabbits/sheep I swear. So afraid of death or losing face you'd rather let some innocent die for no good reason...
Have you ever heard of the "Bystander" effect? Yeah, you have no idea how often I've been in situations where that is literally what happened. A bunch of friggin' NPC's seeing someone suffer or in clear need of assistance and they all just "wait" as it were. Surely, it seems, someone other than themselves will do what obviously and clearly needs to be done.
I'm not talking someone not giving money to a beggar and/or trying to hand him a sandwich either. No. I'm talking someone is in need of immediate medical attention and nobody even bothers to run up a single flight of stairs to a literal medical clinic very nearby and say "Hey, someone downstairs needs a doctor right the fuck now so could you please inform the dude? Now preferably!"
That actually happened to me and yes, I was the dude who ran up those stairs. I waited exactly 4 seconds because I'm an ILI and I had to gather that data point in spite of myself (to my eternal shame if it had ended differently). If it took longer than 4 seconds for someone else on the scene to act than, as I knew of the Bystander effect then, it was likely nobody would act unless I did. I did and it all worked out thankfully but let's just say that such experiences color the ones that come after that one. For Gamma's "theory" is one thing. If a "theory" gets confirmed hard and fast in direct experienced reality than it's fucking true to them and that's getting "slotted in" as it were.
For me, I saw the "Bystander effect" firsthand and thank God I consciously and actively chose to defy it. Those other bastards were all too content to "wait for a hero" as it were and would have likely lost no sleep if that person died in front of them. If you wonder why ILI's are typically defined by their cynicism, well, tell me I'm not justified in being cynical about the "average" person after experiencing that.
I’m pretty sure my dad is an ESI and he’s great imo. We get along super well, and I do believe I could live with him all my life if I had to. Socionics tests tend to type me as ESI, too, but I don’t believe I value Se very much.
Not sure how well I’d get along with LIEs and SEEs. ILIs are cool.
be kind
@kuno
from your picture intuition is also possible - IEI or EIE, for example
I think I was once typed as EIE by someone online, though at the time I immediately dismissed the idea cuz I’d never seriously considered being an intuitive. But it’s possible! It might explain why I admire my dad so much. ESIs’ use of Se tends to impress me, as it doesn’t come so naturally to me. IEI’s suggestive Se also makes IEI possible for me, I guess.
Edit: I am EII, actually. I’ll excuse myself…
Last edited by kuno; 11-13-2022 at 12:56 PM.
be kind
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