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Thread: Struggle about gamma introvert activation (ILI & ESI)

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    Are ESIs really that sensitive? In my experience they're more likely to be a bit avoidant so it's unlikely they will fight with you, but I never found them especially sensitive with words. So if you're looking for this...probably not going to happen.

    Being introverted they also prefer to end a relationship if the other person says it should be ended, like in this case. Or did you expect him to fight to keep you as a customer?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    Maybe it makes sense to people with a higher Se or Si but for me "visualize the space around you" don't help me to move my leg forward and backward with closed eyes.
    Interesting, I would actually say that it's solid advise; if I balance on one leg, close my eyes, and then visualize my position in space and how it moves with my movement I can actually balance better. It's about imagining your position relative to your environment via your mind's eye, as if you still had your eyes open. This helps you maintain your position in the environment, because now you "see" when you deviate from your position relative to the environment and thus can grasp with how much force and in which vector direction you have to correct it.
    I'd suggest simply asking a friend of yours who's higher Se-valuing to help you with this exercise, who you trust and can rely on. Also, look for a soft, yet stable underground, so that the thought of falling doesn't scare you, because I think that this is what's distracting you from the exercise and undermining your performance. Like Franklin D. Roosevelt said: The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. As a psychologist myself, I believe that your struggle is only partially physical, and to a larger extent emotionally-psychological. You might have to tackle that blockade first, do you want to make physical progress. Hence, I'd implore you to look for a sports psychologist to coach you next, instead of a fitness trainer. Even better might be a Mensendieck therapist, because they specialize in balancing, posture correction, and building up therapy gradually, but it might be only common here in the Netherlands. I did it myself for a while, but my actual problem turned out to be a physiotherapeutical one, due to all the hours I spend studying behind my computer. It's rather inescapable these days with online education, international friends who I can only see via videocalls, and the very fact that I literally study programming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    He dares told me "I can do it while I don't practice this kind of exercice often."
    This was Se-mobilizing focused on LIEs. Just like the "Are you sure you won't to stop when failing?" comment it's intended to hit our competitiveness and thereby motivate us to push ourselves further. I greatly enjoy it when ESIs do that, because otherwise I just remain stuck working, working, working behind my computer. The pressure from my parents to achieve high grades doesn't help with me feeling allowed to simply leave my screen for a while and go exercising. I'm glad when I have finish my statistics master next year and start earning money through either a PhD programme or work, so I can move out of my parental home for good. Due to the housing crisis here in the Netherlands the rent is far too expensive when still studying full-time, and I don't want to get indebted. With my political insight I namely already predicted the banks getting their way that one's student debt would decrease the maximum mortgage one can borrow, because they had been lobbying for this for years already. And I turned out to be right, which is bad news for my fellow students.
    Even though the government still doesn't share the information with the banks freely, in order to not discourage teens from going studying, due to the loan, the banks have found a loophole instead. With the new Information and Communication Technology system that the government has recently implemented to connect the tax services, the social welfare system, and the study loans, the banks now can access your financial health. They namely force you to provide them permission to it, or else you won't get a mortgage. And since you provide permission "voluntarily", our privacy laws are completely fine with it, even though it amounts to blackmail in my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    Just as I said earlier, I'm a suggestive Se. I want to be guided but I want to feel that the "guide" is always protecting me. I think it's a common thing about all suggestive function. It is more easy for ESI to speak their mind when they are asked good questions or it is more easy for LIE to love and express their emotions when they feel that people aren't judging them and don't make fun of them.
    Yes, definitely, for some applied psychology courses I got marked bare passes by the Alpha SF teachers, because I didn't open up enough emotionally to them. I have friends to share my feelings with, I'm not going to be vulnerable with some stranger who even has leverage over me through their authority position as a teacher. The guts to try to pressure me into waxing lyrically is absolutely ridiculous, and I don't care what the other students do, psychology should be about feelings safe and any teachers pressuring me into joining their club of overemotionality is preposterous. My LSI friend even had to redo that course, because he didn't open up enough according to his SF teacher.
    I know that some workgroup teachers have literally said: "It's only been a successfull course when people start to cry, because that's progress." What the actual fuck. Those workgroup teachers are almost exclusively SF clinical psychology master students who relish in the emotional atmosphere they create when teaching, but struggle doing research, hence they become workgroup teachers.
    This is one of the main reasons why I ditched psychology and turned to statistics instead, because they're more my kind of people and appreciate my skills in Te and Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    He was often greedy with his demands, this time didn't go as well as the others.
    ESIs are there to push LIEs into momentum. Just like Lady Lunacik described she used to push an ILI friend of her forward, saw him going, and hoped for him to continue that way, but he needed way more exertion to keep moving than that she could reasonably offer. Instead it's a task for SEEs to keep ILIs going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    I think that it's not okay to push people on their suggestive function.
    How could he have known that Se is your suggestive function, because I doubt the guy know about information elements to start with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    In retrospect, to be honest I find my reactions were very fair.
    With all due respect, but now that I know more about what exactly happened, I have to agree that the whole situation came about through failing communication on both sides. Even though as a fitness coach and ESI it's his job to push his clients beyond what they believe themselves to be able to, he should have know how far to go and where to stop pushing your boundaries. You on the other hand seemed to have been open-ended vague regarding your question about the training bike, and in his eyes also critically defiant of his of his expertise as a trainer with your critique of his methods, instead of Te-trusting his knowledge and Fi-relying on him as a person.
    All around, it seems that the spiralling path downwards had already been set in motion a while ago and little could have done about the deterioration of your professional relationship together without outside intervention it seems, because you were both convinced of the righteousness of your actions. It's hard to advocate changing the interaction between two parties when both believe to be acting correctly and the other being amiss, despite all problems arising due to repeated miscommunication from both sides. This is how most wars begin.


    I know it's a long post, but I have faith that you'll manage going through it all. I hope that my advise is of use to you!
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    Last edited by Armitage; 02-07-2022 at 10:31 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Being introverted they also prefer to end a relationship if the other person says it should be ended
    Not when they are interested enough.
    For base F - emotionally especially. Being S act more directly than N, being J more repetative than P.
    Also, extraverts easier switch in relations, while introverts value established relations higher as it's harder for them to make new ones.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Not when they are interested enough.
    For base F - emotionally especially. Being S act more directly than N, being J more repetative than P.
    Also, extraverts easier switch in relations, while introverts value established relations higher as it's harder for them to make new ones.
    You have a point. However, in this case, it was more of a professional relationship, so if the customer is unhappy, a normal response from an introvert would be to be "okay" with the customer searching for something else.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    So. I didn't feel protected. When he told me "Do you want to stop on a failure ?". My immediate interpreration is "I told him that I cannot do the exercice. I told him to give me solutions that he failed to give. He told me that it's not that hard because he can do it. And, finally, he try to push me with this ?"

    So, you have to understand that at this very moment. He is not my coach anymore, he is an ennemy, a betrayer, he is not helping me, he is not protecting me. I hesitated to tell him to leave my home immediatly. I just choose to let my anger vanish with time. So I prefered to tell noting until the session's end where I told him that I needed to calm down and I would message him later. To be honest, I think he tried to "makes things right" by always being accommodating during the session (this happens in the first fifteen minutes) but being nice after this is almost pointless even if a part of me acknowledged.
    Actually it's pretty normal for a coach of any type to act like that (but many coaches in sports are Se creative or dominant). It's pefectly fine for the customer to say "Not feeling it today, will have to do it next time, sorry". It happened to me in the mountains with a LSI (I think) coach, he tried to push me but I told him I found it too dangerous etc. in my mind nothing was happening, he was trying to see if I was just a bit unmotivated or I was technically unable to do it (and I was - after a couple of lessons I managed fine).

    Are you experienced with sports? It's pretty normal to be a bit rough with language while training. I think a fair reply to his pushing would have been "hey man, i'm the one paying here!" with a laugh and then some joke about it.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    For what it’s worth, @wonderwoman, your communication is extremely clear and understandable. Your writing style is that of an extremely competent writer. Direct, succinct, thoughtful and organized.
    @Adam Strange, aww - thanks.

    Upon reflection, your comment helped me place into context the limited nature of people's self-presentations here, or rather, the necessary limits of outward extrapolation about who people are based on how they talk on here. This is because I know that the posts I give here represent only a smattering of the wide range of structured-ness or not in my writing that I'm capable of (and exercise, depending on the occasion); thus I can sorta remember/simulate that what I see from others is also but a limited slice.

    I may do a reflective post here someday about my experiences in education but it's not the time for now

  7. #47
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    ESI singer with her ILI guitarist BF. Watch her face at 1:29. Activation fails to be Duality.



  8. #48
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    @Adam Strange, she looked more frustrated about the fact that the guitarist took the spotlight so long away from her. Perhaps she also had this frustrated look when the pianist had a solo part, but we could not see it, because the camera focused on his hands. Her face looked bright when the spotlight returned to her from the pianist, but her face also cleared up when it did when it returned to her from the guitarist.

    I personally didn't see a problem with the guitar solo, but I did with his part at the end, because he played so loudly that he drowned out her voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    @Adam Strange, she looked more frustrated about the fact that the guitarist took the spotlight so long away from her. Perhaps she also had this frustrated look when the pianist had a solo part, but we could not see it, because the camera focused on his hands. Her face looked bright when the spotlight returned to her from the pianist, but her face also cleared up when it did when it returned to her from the guitarist.

    I personally didn't see a problem with the guitar solo, but I did with his part at the end, because he played so loudly that he drowned out her voice.
    @Armitage, that’s a very interesting analysis. I interpreted the fact that her face changed, from scorn to beaming, as her thinking that the guitarist was inadequate at earning money (he’s a musician, after all), and her loving the audience, but I can completely see that it might have been all about her getting attention, or not.

    I think you’re right.

    The woman in the video is a twin to an ESI whom I went out with once. The date lasted eight hours and I thought we were very compatible, but she refused to go out with me again. She runs a lawnscaping company and has guys working for her, so she likes to be “the main person”, and perhaps she found me to be too extroverted.
    Or she might have thought that I was a jerk. I hadn’t dated many ESIs before her, and I probably did something wrong. Although for a while, she’d text me and flirt a bit.

    Hmmm. So she likes the spotlight. That is a characteristic that I associate with SEEs.

  10. #50
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Or she might have thought that I was a jerk. I hadn’t dated many ESIs before her, and I probably did something wrong.
    While she took silent pride in her efforts as a entrepreneur, you went bragging to her about how much you earn, of course that's taboo. I don't get how normal it is in America to talk about what one earns, because in Europe, and the Netherlands especially, it is not done, because it always results in people feeling inadequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hmmm. So she likes the spotlight. That is a characteristic that I associate with SEEs.
    Based on her choice of career and how she beams in the spotlight, she seems to be an ESI-Se more so than an ESI-Fi, who would be more likely to shy away from the center stage. An ESI-Se will naturally display more behaviours in common with SEEs.

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